Murtough, Fletcher & "Manager" dynamic

[DSG]

It was reported that Chelsea begun negotiations for Ziyech in December and ended up signing him in February. They failed to improve their team in January and delayed squad improvement if your criteria is to be used. I also discussed this at the time and my post history will attest to that.

Bayern tried signing Sane from City in 2019, and failed before coming back and signing him in 2020. Bayern delayed squad improvement if your criteria is to be used.

Liverpool spent most of the summer window in 2017, chasing Van Dijk and were reportedly unhappy with Southampton's £60m valuation. They ended up signing him in January 2018, for £75m and delayed squad improvement if your criteria is to be used.

You see the pattern above, those teams didn't panic and 'delayed squad improvement' because IMO, they didn't just focus on the now but also the mid to long-term.

I honestly couldn't care less about not making Champions League as things stand. I also don't believe it would impact us too much as far as signing the requisite profile of player. Because the players that are deemed the best may not suit the way you want to play. So signing players who fit the profile is more important as far as creating a well oiled machine. Solskjaer spoke about implementing a high pressing game style and we ended up signing Maguire and Wan Bissaka, who I even said at the time didn't suit the football Solskjaer was talking about.

Align the recruitment with a clear blueprint in mind and everything else will follow. There's plenty of potentially great players in England, France, Germany etc that have the technical and athletic requirements which I believe is a advantage in the game today.

No, no, no. Those are vastly different examples and not analogous to our situation. Those are differences in valuation, a failure to get a deal done. There was no question that the club was actively pursuing their transfer targets.

Man United, this window, as far as I can tell, basically said, “We are in a holding pattern until we get a permanent manager. No change to the squad other than loan deals.” That is a mistake, in my opinion. Again, letting a mythical manager who isn’t on board yet drive inaction? Mental.

You may not care about making the CL, but failing to do so would affect revenue (by 20%), player recruitment, new manager recruitment and the current squad — players we want to keep may hand in transfer requests.

what’s the point in bringing in Ralf if he isn’t going to get us into the CL and he isn’t going to install a philosophy and he isn’t going to pursue players that fit those tactics? You haven’t really answered that, it’s more been a series of platitudes about saving money for the new manager. Well, we saved money in January then spent money to “support the manager” previously and that didn’t turn out well either….

 

[Adnan]

No, no, no. Those are vastly different examples and not analogous to our situation. Those are differences in valuation, a failure to get a deal done. There was no question that the club was actively pursuing their transfer targets.

Man United, this window, as far as I can tell, basically said, “We are in a holding pattern until we get a permanent manager. No change to the squad other than loan deals.” That is a mistake, in my opinion. Again, letting a mythical manager who isn’t on board yet drive inaction? Mental.

You may not care about making the CL, but failing to do so would affect revenue (by 20%), player recruitment, new manager recruitment and the current squad — players we want to keep may hand in transfer requests.

what’s the point in bringing in Ralf if he isn’t going to get us into the CL and he isn’t going to install a philosophy and he isn’t going to pursue players that fit those tactics? You haven’t really answered that, it’s more been a series of platitudes about saving money for the new manager. Well, we saved money in January then spent money to “support the manager” previously and that didn’t turn out well either….

The answer is pretty simple, you don't sign players for the next 4 or 5 months, unless those players are also factored into the long-term thinking at the club. You're looking at this from a fans perspective and not from a holistic perspective. And believe it or not, Sporting directors in such situations don't panic and stay calm. And below is what Dan Ashworth said recently and he's a pretty well known Sporting Director in England.

Tweet

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And the examples I gave you from Liverpool, Chelsea and Bayern. All three clubs 'delayed squad improvement' in the pursuit of signing said players on favourable terms. So the concept is the same, whether you fail to sign a player or refuse to sign a player, what you've ultimately done is 'delayed squad improvement' which are the words you used.

I'm aware not qualifying for UCL will impact finances. But I still believe we have a chance of finishing in the top 4. And I'm a big believer in signing players who fit into a particular profile and those players can be second contract players with high potential and a reasonable price tag. You just have to look at Liverpool and the signings of Robertson, Salah, Mane etc to see that. And as far as our players wanting to leave if we don't make UCL, then I say bye bye, because apart from Varane and the youngsters, I couldn't care less about the rest.

Ralf was brought in as interim and not to instill a philosophy. He took charge at a time when we were getting thrashed by all and sundry. We needed someone to steady the ship and see us through to the end of the season. You don't bring people in to instill a philosophy in 6 months, when you're getting thrashed by your rivals as well as relegation fodder like Watford, who put 4 past us. Chelsea didn't appoint Guus Hiddink for him to come in and instill a philosophy? He rather came in due to his experience at the top of the game and to help them see the season out. And the same applies to the rest of the interim coaches they've had.

So why pursue someone like Haidara if the plan is to appoint someone else in the summer? And if the plan ends up being ten Hag, then from what I've seen of his teams, he prefers the more technical #8 rather than the more energetic #8, which Haidara falls into.

 

[Foxbatt]

I'd love it to be ten Hag. But knowing how this club is run, it'll be Poch once he's sacked by PSG, which could be soon if they're knocked out the CL by Real.

Of course it's going to be Poch. He will come and probably get third place a few times and then will get sacked. In the meantime Ten Hag would be established at City.

 

[Laurencio]

Of course it's going to be Poch. He will come and probably get third place a few times and then will get sacked. In the meantime Ten Hag would be established at City.

I never get why people think this. Why on earth would Pep leave? More money than you need, friends in every department, can get any player he wants, free to do whatever he wants with the full backing of the fans amd the club. There really aren't many reasons to leave.

He had this interview with Rio where he basically said it's the best job he's ever had and he loves his current life. He looks more and more like their Fergie for each passing year.

 

[Bestietom]

If the Glazers spent the money we could be up there challenging every year, but it seems that they are happy with a top 4 place and Champions League. I think no matter who the manager we get, the Glazer way will continue, until we get them out of this club.

 

[DSG]

The answer is pretty simple, you don't sign players for the next 4 or 5 months, unless those players are also factored into the long-term thinking at the club. You're looking at this from a fans perspective and not from a holistic perspective. And believe it or not, Sporting directors in such situations don't panic and stay calm. And below is what Dan Ashworth said recently and he's a pretty well known Sporting Director in England.

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

And the examples I gave you from Liverpool, Chelsea and Bayern. All three clubs 'delayed squad improvement' in the pursuit of signing said players on favourable terms. So the concept is the same, whether you fail to sign a player or refuse to sign a player, what you've ultimately done is 'delayed squad improvement' which are the words you used.

I'm aware not qualifying for UCL will impact finances. But I still believe we have a chance of finishing in the top 4. And I'm a big believer in signing players who fit into a particular profile and those players can be second contract players with high potential and a reasonable price tag. You just have to look at Liverpool and the signings of Robertson, Salah, Mane etc to see that. And as far as our players wanting to leave if we don't make UCL, then I say bye bye, because apart from Varane and the youngsters, I couldn't care less about the rest.

Ralf was brought in as interim and not to instill a philosophy. He took charge at a time when we were getting thrashed by all and sundry. We needed someone to steady the ship and see us through to the end of the season. You don't bring people in to instill a philosophy in 6 months, when you're getting thrashed by your rivals as well as relegation fodder like Watford, who put 4 past us. Chelsea didn't appoint Guus Hiddink for him to come in and instill a philosophy? He rather came in due to his experience at the top of the game and to help them see the season out. And the same applies to the rest of the interim coaches they've had.

So why pursue someone like Haidara if the plan is to appoint someone else in the summer? And if the plan ends up being ten Hag, then from what I've seen of his teams, he prefers the more technical #8 rather than the more energetic #8, which Haidara falls into.

I think you are looking for evidence to fit a narrative that you believe in rather than looking at our actions and situation as fact.

Fact: we hired Rangnick on interim basis with a further 2 year consultancy role. Since he has been in sporting director roles over the last few years, presumably he will consult on recruitment, tactics, philosophy, etc.
Fact: we haven’t looked good since Ralf arrived and against pretty bad sides to boot.
Fact: no obvious tactical changes in terms of installing a high press, “control of games”. The 4-2-2-2 has been a failure.
Fact: we are 4th in the table. But, Spurs and Arsenal both have games in hand despite being a couple of point behind. Spurs did bring in players for the push.
Fact: in March, we have City, Spurs, Liverpool. If McTominay gets an injury, or Fred, we are looking at Matic playing significant minutes. Pogba can’t be trusted in the double pivot.
Fact: despite being offered several cheap stop gap solutions for a DM, we said, “we’re good.”
One of the reasons we hired Ralf was to bring in a tactician, an anti Ole so to speak as there was a perception that Ole was too simplistic in training and tactics (I generally agree with this).

‘Either Ralf is or isn’t installing tactics/philosophy/recruitment for our new manager. If he isn’t, why did we bring him in? There were plenty of more experienced managers available who didn’t require a 2 year contract if we needed some schmo to guide us to 10th in the table. If he is here to do so, why hasn’t he made recommendations to address an issue that we have known about since last season, and why didn’t we act to bring in coverage? If we really want to reach top 4, why aren’t we hedging a bit here? For a club that spends so much money, and makes so much money, we really have a small club mentality. Trying to squeeze the last nickel out of Newcastle for Lingard. Overvaluing our own players. Refusing to take a loss on assets. It’s like we have a team of accountants making strategic decisions. Not sanctioning a 8m move for Kamara as a flyer while at the same time refusing to let Lingard go unless we get a 12m balloon payment if Newcastle avoids relegation?

You seem to be saying that we should wait to spend until our “permanent” manager comes in, yet you think that a powerful sporting director is an integral factor for long term success. Furthermore, it’s naive to think bringing in Ten Hag or Poch will mean that Old Trafford will suddenly have unicorns prancing through a forest of butterflies and rainbows.

I am so hopeful that I am wrong, Ralf turns it around, we bring in the next legendary manager in the summer and we start winning titles again. But to me, we’ve seen all of this before. It’s the same poor decisions made for the wrong reasons, and watching this once proud club slowly slide into mediocrity is painful to watch.

 

[romufc]

Ralf was brought in as interim and not to instill a philosophy. He took charge at a time when we were getting thrashed by all and sundry. We needed someone to steady the ship and see us through to the end of the season. You don't bring people in to instill a philosophy in 6 months, when you're getting thrashed by your rivals as well as relegation fodder like Watford, who put 4 past us. Chelsea didn't appoint Guus Hiddink for him to come in and instill a philosophy? He rather came in due to his experience at the top of the game and to help them see the season out. And the same applies to the rest of the interim coaches they've had.

So why pursue someone like Haidara if the plan is to appoint someone else in the summer? And if the plan ends up being ten Hag, then from what I've seen of his teams, he prefers the more technical #8 rather than the more energetic #8, which Haidara falls into.

I think alot of people have misunderstood the job. Rangnick was brought in to steady the ship, try and get us top 4 and salvage the season. However; in conjunction with that, he is to instill some of philosophy because he will be moving up, review the current structure of the club.

Come the summer, he will have a chat with Fletched and Murtough on who the next manager should be, what players should stay or leave.

Why would you spend money on a player when the next manager wont want? Surely its a mistake bringing a player in for the sake of it to appease the fans.

We bought Donny for the sake of buying a midfielder, he's out on loan now. Lets take things slow, assess the squad, pick a manager that can work with most of the players and give him the chance to spend money on players.

I actually do not see why so many people are making a fuss for not signing anyone.

 

[DSG]

I think alot of people have misunderstood the job. Rangnick was brought in to steady the ship, try and get us top 4 and salvage the season. However; in conjunction with that, he is to instill some of philosophy because he will be moving up, review the current structure of the club.

Come the summer, he will have a chat with Fletched and Murtough on who the next manager should be, what players should stay or leave.

Why would you spend money on a player when the next manager wont want? Surely its a mistake bringing a player in for the sake of it to appease the fans.

We bought Donny for the sake of buying a midfielder, he's out on loan now. Lets take things slow, assess the squad, pick a manager that can work with most of the players and give him the chance to spend money on players.

I actually do not see why so many people are making a fuss for not signing anyone.

If he was brought in to steady the ship and get top 4, why were there no incomings, especially in areas that we know are deficient?

I think I’m more disturbed by the lack of concern from the fans. If they were In tenuous 4th place, would Real do nothing? PSG? Barca is so financially hamstrung they can hardly do anything, yet bring in Torres and Aubameyang. Bayern would sit on their hands? Chelsea?

Leadership is totally lacking. You fix the problems that are staring you in the face, you don’t continue to kick the can down the road so when the manager comes in, he’s dealing with a Gordian Knot of epic proportions.

Managers and players come and go. Clubs win titles as a team, a group, a community. We should never forget that.

 

[Adnan]

I think you are looking for evidence to fit a narrative that you believe in rather than looking at our actions and situation as fact.

Fact: we hired Rangnick on interim basis with a further 2 year consultancy role. Since he has been in sporting director roles over the last few years, presumably he will consult on recruitment, tactics, philosophy, etc.
Fact: we haven’t looked good since Ralf arrived and against pretty bad sides to boot.
Fact: no obvious tactical changes in terms of installing a high press, “control of games”. The 4-2-2-2 has been a failure.
Fact: we are 4th in the table. But, Spurs and Arsenal both have games in hand despite being a couple of point behind. Spurs did bring in players for the push.
Fact: in March, we have City, Spurs, Liverpool. If McTominay gets an injury, or Fred, we are looking at Matic playing significant minutes. Pogba can’t be trusted in the double pivot.
Fact: despite being offered several cheap stop gap solutions for a DM, we said, “we’re good.”
One of the reasons we hired Ralf was to bring in a tactician, an anti Ole so to speak as there was a perception that Ole was too simplistic in training and tactics (I generally agree with this).

‘Either Ralf is or isn’t installing tactics/philosophy/recruitment for our new manager. If he isn’t, why did we bring him in? There were plenty of more experienced managers available who didn’t require a 2 year contract if we needed some schmo to guide us to 10th in the table. If he is here to do so, why hasn’t he made recommendations to address an issue that we have known about since last season, and why didn’t we act to bring in coverage? If we really want to reach top 4, why aren’t we hedging a bit here? For a club that spends so much money, and makes so much money, we really have a small club mentality. Trying to squeeze the last nickel out of Newcastle for Lingard. Overvaluing our own players. Refusing to take a loss on assets. It’s like we have a team of accountants making strategic decisions. Not sanctioning a 8m move for Kamara as a flyer while at the same time refusing to let Lingard go unless we get a 12m balloon payment if Newcastle avoids relegation?

You seem to be saying that we should wait to spend until our “permanent” manager comes in, yet you think that a powerful sporting director is an integral factor for long term success. Furthermore, it’s naive to think bringing in Ten Hag or Poch will mean that Old Trafford will suddenly have unicorns prancing through a forest of butterflies and rainbows.

I am so hopeful that I am wrong, Ralf turns it around, we bring in the next legendary manager in the summer and we start winning titles again. But to me, we’ve seen all of this before. It’s the same poor decisions made for the wrong reasons, and watching this once proud club slowly slide into mediocrity is painful to watch.

I'm not looking for evidence to fit a narrative but rather providing you evidence, after you had posed a question asking me, which of Liverpool, Bayern, Chelsea etc had 'delayed squad improvement'. And I gave you clear evidence, which can be verified of those clubs delaying squad improvement.

Ralf Rangnick when he was at RB Leipzig in a Sporting director's role, also 'delayed squad improvement' by waiting a whole year for Julian Nagelsmann. And don't be surprised if we end up doing the same with Rangnick staying on until someone like Luis Enrique arrives. Because as Rangnick himself has said, that he may advise the board to keep him on for a extra year. Would you want the board to ignore the advice of Rangnick the consultant, if he proposed himself to stay on for another year?


I've never heard or seen a club hire a interim coach for the purpose of instilling a philosophy. There's seems to be a obsession about play styles and pressing on here, when it's obviously clear to me at least, that whether you hire someone to play compact mid block football or compact high block football, the concept is similar, with the difference being that one approach looks to maintain defensive stability in a collective approach out of possession and the other approach, looks to maintain defensive stability via pressing high and having the most defensive players, defend large spaces in 1v1 scenarios.

Rangnick prefers the compact high block. And you can't expect him to come in mid-season, when we're getting roundly trounced to instill his play style, instantly. And also factor in the Omicron variant, which caused delays. It took Erik ten Hag, 6 months at Ajax, to implement his ideas on his players. And before that he was being criticised by fans and pundits alike in the Netherlands.



I'm not saying we should wait for the sake of waiting, but rather wait for the right profile of player that we see as the long-term fit for the role in question, when it comes to midfield. And the winter window doesn't normally provide the best opportunity to sign the correct profile of player. And Rangnick himself as the the all encompassing Sporting director at RB Leipzig, has done just that in the past when selecting a head coach.

 

[Ralph1386]

If the Glazers spent the money we could be up there challenging every year, but it seems that they are happy with a top 4 place and Champions League. I think no matter who the manager we get, the Glazer way will continue, until we get them out of this club.

Been saying this for years.

 

[Ralph1386]

Apparently it’s being reported that Murtough is the person who gave Lingard the night off behind Ragnick’s back. Anyone here can confirm?

 

[SteveCoppellFan]

We need a very good long term manager in the summer and Ragnick to move upstairs and get a grip of the mess going on there.

Maybe the likes of Murtough do not want someone like Ragnick to move upstairs and highlight the utter incompetence going on there and is already trying to undermine him.

Absolute farce that needs to stop asap.

 

[-Supreme-]

Apparently it’s being reported that Murtough is the person who gave Lingard the night off behind Ragnick’s back. Anyone here can confirm?

I think Ralf mentioned or it reported that Lingards absence / decision was made by someone outside of the coaching staff and that clearly points to Murtough IMO, especially when hes been in close dialogue with Lingard regarding his potential exit in January.

 

[DSG]

I'm not looking for evidence to fit a narrative but rather providing you evidence, after you had posed a question asking me, which of Liverpool, Bayern, Chelsea etc had 'delayed squad improvement'. And I gave you clear evidence, which can be verified of those clubs delaying squad improvement.

Ralf Rangnick when he was at RB Leipzig in a Sporting director's role, also 'delayed squad improvement' by waiting a whole year for Julian Nagelsmann. And don't be surprised if we end up doing the same with Rangnick staying on until someone like Luis Enrique arrives. Because as Rangnick himself has said, that he may advise the board to keep him on for a extra year. Would you want the board to ignore the advice of Rangnick the consultant, if he proposed himself to stay on for another year?


I've never heard or seen a club hire a interim coach for the purpose of instilling a philosophy. There's seems to be a obsession about play styles and pressing on here, when it's obviously clear to me at least, that whether you hire someone to play compact mid block football or compact high block football, the concept is similar, with the difference being that one approach looks to maintain defensive stability in a collective approach out of possession and the other approach, looks to maintain defensive stability via pressing high and having the most defensive players, defend large spaces in 1v1 scenarios.

Rangnick prefers the compact high block. And you can't expect him to come in mid-season, when we're getting roundly trounced to instill his play style, instantly. And also factor in the Omicron variant, which caused delays. It took Erik ten Hag, 6 months at Ajax, to implement his ideas on his players. And before that he was being criticised by fans and pundits alike in the Netherlands.



I'm not saying we should wait for the sake of waiting, but rather wait for the right profile of player that we see as the long-term fit for the role in question, when it comes to midfield. And the winter window doesn't normally provide the best opportunity to sign the correct profile of player. And Rangnick himself as the the all encompassing Sporting director at RB Leipzig, has done just that in the past when selecting a head coach.

There is a faction of the Caf starting to emerge that has decided that Ralf and the club are suddenly beyond reproach. Maybe it’s the fact that Woodward is gone and that we have Murtough and Fletcher installed with Ralf ‘the professor” running things. Like spring has arrived. What, exactly has changed with leadership at the board level?

‘I’ve never been overly critical of the Glazers — in pockets, yes — but never critical of the way they took over the club, etc. That’s finance, and large companies operate this way. But after SAF retired, you can see that despite spending gobs of cash, it’s been way way below our standard. Although I knew it was dysfunctional at the CEO level, I was naive enough to think that the results on the pitch were purely manager/ player related.

Well, I’ve changed my mind. I think the dysfunction has bled into the management and the squad. And I believe our club mission has changed significantly since SAF retired. On the surface, the Glazers would say that their mission is to win titles and become the biggest club in the world. In reality, you can see from the day-to-day decision making that this is a club in a leadership crisis. And that starts at the top.

specifically, in regards to your post, you’ve used Google to dredge up “evidence” and “examples” of delaying squad improvement. They are flimsy, and I think you know it. There IS a difference between crisis management and building for the long term. No doubt, the players that fit their profile may not have been available. But the failure to solve the crisis (Ole sacked later than he should have) led to a caretaker, which led to an interim manager, and now the crisis is still here, waving hello as we crash out of the FA Cup. We laugh at Chelsea for their quick trigger on hiring and firing managers, their loan army, their wasteful player acquisition. However, there is no doubt about their club mission: win trophies at all costs. And they have, with 2 CLs, 2 league titles, 2 Europa titles and 2 FA cups in the last decade. We have, on the other hand only won a league cup and Europa title since SAF retired.

Are we a top club? I would argue no. We failed to transition from SAF to a club that can continue to achieve titles, year after year. That’s what the great clubs do.

You are looking at the lack of business in the January window in a vacuum. I am looking at it as a symptom of organizational dysfunction.

By the way, a few posts back you mentioned that Ten Hag likes 8s that are more technical rather than physical box to box athletic types like Haidara. First of all, I thought Haidara was a 6, is that not the case? Secondly, we already have two 8s that are rather poor technically, so he’d have to buy a brand new midfield. Lastly, we’d still need a 6.

 

[Adnan]

There is a faction of the Caf starting to emerge that has decided that Ralf and the club are suddenly beyond reproach. Maybe it’s the fact that Woodward is gone and that we have Murtough and Fletcher installed with Ralf ‘the professor” running things. Like spring has arrived. What, exactly has changed with leadership at the board level?

‘I’ve never been overly critical of the Glazers — in pockets, yes — but never critical of the way they took over the club, etc. That’s finance, and large companies operate this way. But after SAF retired, you can see that despite spending gobs of cash, it’s been way way below our standard. Although I knew it was dysfunctional at the CEO level, I was naive enough to think that the results on the pitch were purely manager/ player related.

Well, I’ve changed my mind. I think the dysfunction has bled into the management and the squad. And I believe our club mission has changed significantly since SAF retired. On the surface, the Glazers would say that their mission is to win titles and become the biggest club in the world. In reality, you can see from the day-to-day decision making that this is a club in a leadership crisis. And that starts at the top.

specifically, in regards to your post, you’ve used Google to dredge up “evidence” and “examples” of delaying squad improvement. They are flimsy, and I think you know it. There IS a difference between crisis management and building for the long term. No doubt, the players that fit their profile may not have been available. But the failure to solve the crisis (Ole sacked later than he should have) led to a caretaker, which led to an interim manager, and now the crisis is still here, waving hello as we crash out of the FA Cup. We laugh at Chelsea for their quick trigger on hiring and firing managers, their loan army, their wasteful player acquisition. However, there is no doubt about their club mission: win trophies at all costs. And they have, with 2 CLs, 2 league titles, 2 Europa titles and 2 FA cups in the last decade. We have, on the other hand only won a league cup and Europa title since SAF retired.

Are we a top club? I would argue no. We failed to transition from SAF to a club that can continue to achieve titles, year after year. That’s what the great clubs do.

You are looking at the lack of business in the January window in a vacuum. I am looking at it as a symptom of organizational dysfunction.

By the way, a few posts back you mentioned that Ten Hag likes 8s that are more technical rather than physical box to box athletic types like Haidara. First of all, I thought Haidara was a 6, is that not the case? Secondly, we already have two 8s that are rather poor technically, so he’d have to buy a brand new midfield. Lastly, we’d still need a 6.

I don't need Google to tell me that Liverpool, Bayern, Chelsea etc have 'delayed squad improvement', which were the words you used, when putting forth your question. And the answer is very simple, you don't sign players in the winter window, if those players aren't also transfer targets in the summer window. So I would say it's you who is looking at things in a vacuum in isolation, and I'm looking beyond the winter window. And whether that's with or without Champions league football, it doesn't matter to me, because how many times have we made the Champions League proper and done feck all.. Signing players in a reactive manner because they're being offered around Europe is exactly what we shouldn't do IMO. Because that would fall into thinking in a vacuum as you put it and instead of panicking and thinking in a vacuum, it's best to wait for the primary target(s) which may 'delay squad improvement' in the short-term, but will likely better help us in the mid to long-term. And the examples I've given you previously at other clubs, where they waited for their primary target, before making their move is exactly what we should do.


The rest of your post is about dyfunctionality at the club and you use Chelsea as a example. And I agree that we've been dysfunctional on the football side since Fergie retired who was our head of football, as well as our head coach. But the problem at our club and a lot of other clubs in the UK is that the ownership/board are traditionally programmed to give Mr Manager control of the football side of the club. This was fine in the past, but now there's a extra 20-25 departments with around 80 to 100 people working within those departments on the recruitment side which Mr Manager can't juggle alongside overseeing the coaching on the training ground, 4/5 x a week and also match days.

I've been saying this for several years now, that our biggest problem is that we allow Mr Manager to head our football operations and set the direction going forward. And our issues right now stem from the same problem. Whether that be contracts or anything else, the issues stem from Mr Manager having too much control. And as far as Chelsea are concerned, they have people on the football side of the club who can make decisions independently from the coaching staff. For that you need departments with scouts, heads of departments and figure heads to allow you to make independent decisions due to the information they're backed up by. And I wouldn't particularly look at Chelsea and think I want us to be run like them. Because I believe they should've won much more after winning the lottery with Abramovich.

Haidara is a #8 and isn't someone that I would classify as a holding midfielder. He's someone who is best utilised to initiate the wide pressing trap or to apply pressure vertically on-to the opposing central players in a coordinated manner. Playing him as the DM would negate a lot of his qualities. We actually need a DM who is strong at defend large spaces high up the pitch in isolation against the quickest of attackers. So having someone play in-front of the back two, high up the pitch ready to thwart counters is a quality we require in defensive transition imo.

 

[Adnan]

I think alot of people have misunderstood the job. Rangnick was brought in to steady the ship, try and get us top 4 and salvage the season. However; in conjunction with that, he is to instill some of philosophy because he will be moving up, review the current structure of the club.

Come the summer, he will have a chat with Fletched and Murtough on who the next manager should be, what players should stay or leave.

Why would you spend money on a player when the next manager wont want? Surely its a mistake bringing a player in for the sake of it to appease the fans.

We bought Donny for the sake of buying a midfielder, he's out on loan now. Lets take things slow, assess the squad, pick a manager that can work with most of the players and give him the chance to spend money on players.

I actually do not see why so many people are making a fuss for not signing anyone.

I agree there's a misunderstanding when it comes to understanding the role of the interim head coach. There's also a big misunderstanding of the role of the DoF, which I will explain further down.

I have never seen or heard any club appoint a interim on the basis of said interim coming into a club to implement a philosophy, and closing down players (pressing)isn't a philosophy imo. So we were always gonna bring in a coach who was gonna potentially help us play a brand of football that is closer to what we see at the top clubs in the game today.

There's a misunderstanding of the role of the DoF, among many fans imo. There's no such thing as a 'world class DoF' imo. And why do I say that? I say that because for any DoF to be successful, he/she needs to have a team from various different scouting/data analytics departments, who will filter information through to him/her for them to go forth and act upon. You're only as good as the information you're being fed via the people who are working below you in various different departments on the recruitment side of the club.

So at United since 2017, when we revamped and hence restructured the recruitment setup to bring it in-line with other clubs. We put in place people of very high experience to head the European scouting (Henny de Regt) head of recruitment (Marcel Bout), head of data analytics (Mick Court) and I can go on, but all together you have a team of about 100 people working in 20 to 25 departments, which are headed by the heads of those departments who then report to the person at the top, who we call the DoF.

The blame I place on the board here is that if you have a setup that has the potential to provide you thorough scouting reports backed up by data analysis, then why are you allowing Mr Manager to bring in his own scout and also have his own scout and assistant (Phelan) sit on the transfer committee in opposition to Bout, Court and Lawlor, who are three people from within the club's own recruitment department and are big believers in backing up their scouting with data analysis from the information we have. And in contrast you have Mike Phelan who believes in his own eyes over data analysis and doesn't believe in improving player weaknesses and would rather just focus on player strengths. You see the problem there?

I've been saying on this forum for several years now, that our issues stem from us giving too much control to the Managers post Fergie. And until we adopt the DoF - Head Coach model, the chances of us making a recovery are small due to the short shelf life a Manager has at clubs. We have this mentality that the Manager is gonna come in and do everything, which is a naive way of thinking and doesn't correlate to modern day reality.

The below article/tweet quoting Stuart Webber who is a DoF at Norwich, highlights the naivety of someone our owners/boards have in the UK when it comes to handing control to the managers at clubs up and down the country. But I think he's being a little kind to the managers here because I believe some of those managers crave that control. Klopp and Guardiola for example have understood that they needed structural support, and in Klopp's case he came to Liverpool at a time when their fans were turning on Michael Edwards after Brendan Rodgers was sacked.

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Stuart Webber from the above link: "You probably watched the Sunderland documentary on Netflix. When you watch that, it’s no surprise that they suffered a double relegation, it really isn’t. They put all their faith in one man, the manager, and as soon as it went wrong, said, ‘it must be his fault’.
Why not look a bit deeper? Maybe that group of players wasn’t good enough, maybe the culture wasn’t right, maybe the head coach needed some support. Instead, you put him on a pedestal and said, ‘go and sort this out will you?’
Ah, brilliant - on my own, with 20 departments and 25 players, half of whom are overpaid and don’t want to be here and don’t care.
That’s where the Sporting Director comes in and that model is really ingrained in Germany, which helps their coaches a lot. As a Sporting Director, you need owners who allow you to do your work"

 

[Bestietom]

Apparently it’s being reported that Murtough is the person who gave Lingard the night off behind Ragnick’s back. Anyone here can confirm?

I would believe this. It was someone of the hierarchy.

 

[Nytram Shakes]

I still can’t for life of me understand how Murtough and Fletcher have a job.

Murtough has been at the club for years through all the wasted money, lack of player development, car crash style squad building and awful manager choices. And things have not improved since he became DOF

And fletcher has no experience or track record and seems to have just walked into the job on his name alone.

if we really want to progress as a club these can’t be the people managing the football side of the buissness going forward

 

[Rhyme Animal]

I still can’t for life of me understand how Murtough and Fletcher have a job.

Murtough has been at the club for years through all the wasted money, lack of player development, car crash style squad building and awful manager choices. And things have not improved since he became DOF

And fletcher has no experience or track record and seems to have just walked into the job on his name alone.

if we really want to progress as a club these can’t be the people managing the football side of the buissness going forward

They’re token positions mate, quasi job titles to appease the Utd fans again.

This is what the Glazers do.

 

[Nytram Shakes]

They’re token positions mate, quasi job titles to appease the Utd fans again.

This is what the Glazers do.

I assumed it was Woodward…. just appointing anyone who wouldn’t challenge him

 

[devips]

The Caf experts have decided: Murtough and Fletcher are worthless.

Comedy gold really.

 

[Seij]

I would believe this. It was someone of the hierarchy.

If this is what really happened, then Murtough + Arnold combo doesn't look too promising compared to Woodward. It should be the manager who decides who will play. You cannot have a DOF going around giving individual players time off in the middle of the season behind the manager's back.

Who knows if that's what really happened or if it's Lingard's PR team trying to come up with any excuse for him being caught lying.

 

[clarkydaz]

If this is what really happened, then Murtough + Arnold combo doesn't look too promising compared to Woodward. It should be the manager who decides who will play. You cannot have a DOF going around giving individual players time off in the middle of the season behind the manager's back.

Who knows if that's what really happened or if it's Lingard's PR team trying to come up with any excuse for him being caught lying.

The reality is this could have been the norm, just Ole always had a smiley face to cover for the board

 

[DSG]

I don't need Google to tell me that Liverpool, Bayern, Chelsea etc have 'delayed squad improvement', which were the words you used, when putting forth your question. And the answer is very simple, you don't sign players in the winter window, if those players aren't also transfer targets in the summer window. So I would say it's you who is looking at things in a vacuum in isolation, and I'm looking beyond the winter window. And whether that's with or without Champions league football, it doesn't matter to me, because how many times have we made the Champions League proper and done feck all.. Signing players in a reactive manner because they're being offered around Europe is exactly what we shouldn't do IMO. Because that would fall into thinking in a vacuum as you put it and instead of panicking and thinking in a vacuum, it's best to wait for the primary target(s) which may 'delay squad improvement' in the short-term, but will likely better help us in the mid to long-term. And the examples I've given you previously at other clubs, where they waited for their primary target, before making their move is exactly what we should do.


The rest of your post is about dyfunctionality at the club and you use Chelsea as a example. And I agree that we've been dysfunctional on the football side since Fergie retired who was our head of football, as well as our head coach. But the problem at our club and a lot of other clubs in the UK is that the ownership/board are traditionally programmed to give Mr Manager control of the football side of the club. This was fine in the past, but now there's a extra 20-25 departments with around 80 to 100 people working within those departments on the recruitment side which Mr Manager can't juggle alongside overseeing the coaching on the training ground, 4/5 x a week and also match days.

I've been saying this for several years now, that our biggest problem is that we allow Mr Manager to head our football operations and set the direction going forward. And our issues right now stem from the same problem. Whether that be contracts or anything else, the issues stem from Mr Manager having too much control. And as far as Chelsea are concerned, they have people on the football side of the club who can make decisions independently from the coaching staff. For that you need departments with scouts, heads of departments and figure heads to allow you to make independent decisions due to the information they're backed up by. And I wouldn't particularly look at Chelsea and think I want us to be run like them. Because I believe they should've won much more after winning the lottery with Abramovich.

Haidara is a #8 and isn't someone that I would classify as a holding midfielder. He's someone who is best utilised to initiate the wide pressing trap or to apply pressure vertically on-to the opposing central players in a coordinated manner. Playing him as the DM would negate a lot of his qualities. We actually need a DM who is strong at defend large spaces high up the pitch in isolation against the quickest of attackers. So having someone play in-front of the back two, high up the pitch ready to thwart counters is a quality we require in defensive transition imo.

For the love of Pete, I’m not even sure what we are discussing anymore. On one hand, you’re advocating for a DoF to manage the transfer market and footballing philosophy, on the other you are saying we should wait til the summer for transfers because we don’t have a permanent manager!???! Wouldn’t a DoF be buying players that a manager would put on the field in a certain club wide style as set by the DoF? If we are waiting for the permanent manager to do transfer business, wouldn’t he be the one to decide on the transfers and implement the style? You can’t have it both ways, right? WHO IS DRIVING THE BUS?????

So, actually, you are unhappy that Mr Manager is driving the United bus. On the other hand, you are totally cool that we failed to buy a DM in the window because we don’t have a permanent manager in?

My point for the very beginning was this: The club lacks leadership. A strong leader, like Real, PSG, Chelsea, Bayern sets a course. The club employees, INCLUDING THE MANAGER, executes the vision. If we had strong leadership, there would be no question that we should buy a DM. That didn’t happen. That’s the crux of my argument and why I’m disappointed with the window.

Chelsea is an example. Stop being pedantic. They’ve won much more than we have since SAF retired and given the rise of City (owned by a fecking country!) have won more than any other PL squad in the last 10 years, no? It’s like you’re driving a Honda Civic and watching an AMG Benz drive by and saying, “I just don’t like those rims… nope, happy with my Civic!”

RE Haidara, I never advocated buying Haidara, I just wanted us to buy a DM in the window because we are getting over run in the midfield.

I’m sure you don’t care about the CL. I do. Qualification allows us to buy better players, hire a better manager and make more money, which we need to invest in the squad. So… yeah, it’s important. I feel like you’ve never run a business as you seem to have a very idealistic view of how organizations and clubs are managed…

 

[Adnan]

For the love of Pete, I’m not even sure what we are discussing anymore. On one hand, you’re advocating for a DoF to manage the transfer market and footballing philosophy, on the other you are saying we should wait til the summer for transfers because we don’t have a permanent manager!???! Wouldn’t a DoF be buying players that a manager would put on the field in a certain club wide style as set by the DoF? If we are waiting for the permanent manager to do transfer business, wouldn’t he be the one to decide on the transfers and implement the style? You can’t have it both ways, right? WHO IS DRIVING THE BUS?????

So, actually, you are unhappy that Mr Manager is driving the United bus. On the other hand, you are totally cool that we failed to buy a DM in the window because we don’t have a permanent manager in?

My point for the very beginning was this: The club lacks leadership. A strong leader, like Real, PSG, Chelsea, Bayern sets a course. The club employees, INCLUDING THE MANAGER, executes the vision. If we had strong leadership, there would be no question that we should buy a DM. That didn’t happen. That’s the crux of my argument and why I’m disappointed with the window.

Chelsea is an example. Stop being pedantic. They’ve won much more than we have since SAF retired and given the rise of City (owned by a fecking country!) have won more than any other PL squad in the last 10 years, no? It’s like you’re driving a Honda Civic and watching an AMG Benz drive by and saying, “I just don’t like those rims… nope, happy with my Civic!”

RE Haidara, I never advocated buying Haidara, I just wanted us to buy a DM in the window because we are getting over run in the midfield.

I’m sure you don’t care about the CL. I do. Qualification allows us to buy better players, hire a better manager and make more money, which we need to invest in the squad. So… yeah, it’s important. I feel like you’ve never run a business as you seem to have a very idealistic view of how organizations and clubs are managed…

A DoF doesn't just manage the transfer market but also manages the whole football side of the club from the youth to the first team. And decisions that were made 3 years ago at youth level (Hannibal Mejbri) for the mid to long-term have become decisions for now. These are things you either don't understand or are looking at things in a vacuum with just the first team in mind.

You're also attributing things to me which I've never said. My position is very clear on this, I don't believe signing players in the winter window is the correct way to go about things, unless those players would also be targets in the summer window. And what we do know, is that the best players for the DM role, weren't available in the winter window. And as far as I know, I don't know any well run football club with a DoF who buy players in the winter window, without factoring in the mid to long-term. Also its very naive to think a young DM from France or Germany will come in mid-season and hit the ground running in the EPL. I couldn't care less about a manager but I'm hoping we bring in a reputable head coach.

Chelsea as I've explained to you, is a club that have people working on the football side of the club that have had the power to make decisions independently from the head coach. And those decisions haven't always been good ones but overall with the aid of Roman's rubles, they've been successful. But I personally don't look at Chelsea and think they're are a example we should follow, but I'd rather us look at Liverpool and Bayern as two teams we should try replicating as far as their football departments are concerned.

You're correct I've never run a business and neither have I run the football operations at a club. But what I have done for many many years now, is to listen to people who do head football operations at big clubs and its very clear listening to them, that you don't panic and sign players in the winter window unless those players also factor into the mid to long-term thinking.

I hope we do qualify for the UCL, but if we don't its not the end of the world as far as I'm concerned. Which of the 'best players' have we signed post Fergie on the back of qualifying for the champions league? Players join clubs who either give them the most money or provide them the best project which involves the mid to long-term. Or in Raphael Varanes case, wanting to play in the EPL after winning multiple domestic, European and world titles.

 

[Skills]

The threesomes now a foursome. Now I know what we're all thinking - should Fletcher & Murtough shave their heads in solidarity with ETH and O'Boyle?