Nathaniel Brown - left back target

[Bondi77]

Obviously. Then you had the likes of Robben, Ribery, Bale, Hazard and probably more that I can’t remember at the moment.

I mean you wouldn’t claim Cleverley was a top midfielder, would you?

The players you have mentioned in your first paragraph are virtually world class and then in your second you pick a functioning cog in a well drilled team and use that as a comparison.
I wonder if Rooney would rate the service he received from Valencia's wing play as that of a top level winger...I would say so.

 

[JohnnyLaw]

The players you have mentioned in your first paragraph are virtually world class and then in your second you pick a functioning cog in a well drilled team and use that as a comparison.
I wonder if Rooney would rate the service he received from Valencia's wing play as that of a top level winger...I would say so.

You mean to say that Young and Valencia were more than functioning cogs then?

If they were such good wingers then why didn’t they stay there?

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

A proper attacking fullback who can defend

 

[TwoSheds]

You mean to say that Young and Valencia were more than functioning cogs then?

If they were such good wingers then why didn’t they stay there?

Valencia certainly became a lot less useful on the wing as he got older, whether that was injuries, confidence, or just ageing it's hard to say. But anyone who watched his last year at Wigan or first year or two at United would tell you he was an excellent winger, albeit a downgrade from Ronaldo as almost anyone would have been.

 

[JohnnyLaw]

Valencia certainly became a lot less useful on the wing as he got older, whether that was injuries, confidence, or just ageing it's hard to say. But anyone who watched his last year at Wigan or first year or two at United would tell you he was an excellent winger, albeit a downgrade from Ronaldo as almost anyone would have been.

Or because defenders realised all you had to do was stand off of him and he had no other resort than trying to smash the ball through your shin..

Valencia just like Dorgu was an awful dribbler but a powerful ball-carrier. If you can create space for them they can be effective but a winger playing for Man Utd will not be afforded that.

We have to evolve to be more than just a transition team if we’re to be one of the best in europe.

 

[TwoSheds]

Or because defenders realised all you had to do was stand off of him and he had no other resort than trying to smash the ball through your shin..

Valencia just like Dorgu was an awful dribbler but a powerful ball-carrier. If you can create space for them they can be effective but a winger playing for Man Utd will not be afforded that.

We have to evolve to be more than just a transition team if we’re to be one of the best in europe.

It took 5 years for Premier League coaches to work that out did it? Or was it more that, like a not-fun Robben, you knew what he was going to do but couldn't stop him going past you anyway? I really think it was something in his head that changed and meant he ended up further back more than anything. He may have lost half a yard as he bulked up too.

 

[JohnnyLaw]

It took 5 years for Premier League coaches to work that out did it? Or was it more that, like a not-fun Robben, you knew what he was going to do but couldn't stop him going past you anyway? I really think it was something in his head that changed and meant he ended up further back more than anything. He may have lost half a yard as he bulked up too.

Just look at the difference in productivity from the 11/12 season to the next.

The guy couldn’t even manage to score 30 goals for us in over 300 games.

I’d say he had at most two seasons for us where he played mostly as a winger and performed above average.

 

[TwoSheds]

Just look at the difference in productivity from the 11/12 season to the next.

The guy couldn’t even manage to score 30 goals for us in over 300 games.

I’d say he had at most two seasons for us where he played mostly as a winger and performed above average.

And yet he played for Wigan from 2006-2009 and did well enough to get a move to Man United and still nobody had figured out this simple way of yours to keep him out of the game it seems.

 

[DJ_21]

not really seen him play… what type of FB is he?

 

[Lash]

It says the position he played more than any other was LB, appearing there significantly more than in any other individual position. Whereas the post I was responding to said he has always been a winger or wingback.

Also, it doesn't even say he played more minutes as an attacker. The fullback positions combined are slightly more than the attacking positions combined.

Fair if that was in response to that, I thought you were more saying by that figure proves he's a LB - which I disagree with.

As a LB it does, hence the confusion from me, apologies. Even so, you're talking about the difference of 10%, that's doesn't really tell you he's a full back. That's before you get the point of his best games for Lecce and United have been as a winger, not a fullback.

I don't think that poster is right saying he's always been a winger or a wingback, but I would say he's only really shown real quality when he's been a winger or wingback.

 

[golden_blunder]

Just look at the difference in productivity from the 11/12 season to the next.

The guy couldn’t even manage to score 30 goals for us in over 300 games.

I’d say he had at most two seasons for us where he played mostly as a winger and performed above average.

Performed above average?

Valencia received the Sir Matt Busby Player of the Year and the Manchester United Players' Player of the Year awards for his contributions in the 2011–12 season.

Don’t forget he broke his leg yet still came back strongly and without constant niggling injuries

I think you do him a disservice

 

[Ish]

It's a tough one on Dorgu - I am not sure whether he is a LB or LW. I can see arguments for both.

Yep, tough one but for me he should be developed as a fullback (he can cover both sides, can’t he?) in the PL. He has the physicality for it. I don’t think he’s “technically” refined enough to thrive as a winger unless you continue to play a counter attacking system. I think he could develop into a very good fullback. But what do I know

 

[JohnnyLaw]

And yet he played for Wigan from 2006-2009 and did well enough to get a move to Man United and still nobody had figured out this simple way of yours to keep him out of the game it seems.

Performed above average?

Valencia received the Sir Matt Busby Player of the Year and the Manchester United Players' Player of the Year awards for his contributions in the 2011–12 season.

Don’t forget he broke his leg yet still came back strongly and without constant niggling injuries

I think you do him a disservice

Look at the signings we made around that time. We were clearly moneyballing or something because what were we actually up to?

Bebe, Obertan, Diouf, Chicharito.

Valencia had 3 g and 5 assists for Wigan the season before we signed him. 2 and 4 the year before that. This wasn’t some elite prospect we fended off europes top clubs for.

@golden_blunder Yeah, that’s one of the two. Apart from that season and his first, which one was above average?

Look, if you believe he was an elite attacker, fair enough, let’s just agree to disagree.

I think his numbers speak for themselves but let’s not derail this thread any longer.

 

[Rozay]

Dorgu as a winger would be similar to say, Nuno Mendes being seen as a full time winger for PSG. He’s been moved up there at times following substitutions etc, but he’s not near the actual wingers they have in terms of quality.

 

[BayernFan87]

I really like him, very complete fullback, good in attack, good in defense, especially 1vs.1 duels on the ground, fast good passing, good game IQ. In theory he could also be a great DM/CM imo.

I almost hope we sell Davies and get this guy.
In Kompanys system where fullbacks have much freedom this guy would fit perfectly I think.

 

[Fortitude]

Look at the signings we made around that time. We were clearly moneyballing or something because what were we actually up to?

Bebe, Obertan, Diouf, Chicharito.

Valencia had 3 g and 5 assists for Wigan the season before we signed him. 2 and 4 the year before that. This wasn’t some elite prospect we fended off europes top clubs for.

@golden_blunder Yeah, that’s one of the two. Apart from that season and his first, which one was above average?

Look, if you believe he was an elite attacker, fair enough, let’s just agree to disagree.

I think his numbers speak for themselves but let’s not derail this thread any longer.

You don’t seem to acknowledge his severe leg break nor his role, which was that of a 2-way winger, *not* a wing-forward. Valencia got praise for being so dominant up and down his flank and also for being exceptional at keeping width, enabling those inside channel players to play in more space.

There’s a distinct difference between pre and post leg-break Valencia, too. Pre, he was a lot trickier, post, he got the shin-crosser moniker because he approached the game differently, but became much more forceful and power-based. That’s also why he could move to FB and be so effective.

The players you’ve listed weren’t 2-way. Well, maybe Ribery. Bale wasn’t at all interested in defending when he was a FB, either.

 

[Glorio]

Look at the signings we made around that time. We were clearly moneyballing or something because what were we actually up to?

Bebe, Obertan, Diouf, Chicharito.

Valencia had 3 g and 5 assists for Wigan the season before we signed him. 2 and 4 the year before that. This wasn’t some elite prospect we fended off europes top clubs for.

@golden_blunder Yeah, that’s one of the two. Apart from that season and his first, which one was above average?

Look, if you believe he was an elite attacker, fair enough, let’s just agree to disagree.

I think his numbers speak for themselves but let’s not derail this thread any longer.

Agree with this

 

[Posh Red]

You do realise Young and Valencia did play in attacking positions at the top level?

Valencia was the ‘best winger in the world’ according to Guardiola. It’s an exaggeration, but the disrespect of Valencia here is scandalous.

 

[Nobby style]

Look at the signings we made around that time. We were clearly moneyballing or something because what were we actually up to?

Bebe, Obertan, Diouf, Chicharito.

Valencia had 3 g and 5 assists for Wigan the season before we signed him. 2 and 4 the year before that. This wasn’t some elite prospect we fended off europes top clubs for.

@golden_blunder Yeah, that’s one of the two. Apart from that season and his first, which one was above average?

Look, if you believe he was an elite attacker, fair enough, let’s just agree to disagree.

I think his numbers speak for themselves but let’s not derail this thread any longer.

He also won players' player of the year twice, which I think is the most impressive award, considering it's United own teammates choosing. He won it in 2011/2012, and 2016/2017, the year both Guardiola and Mourinho placed him as the top right back in the world. Also, only United player to do it at two different positions. Didn't he captain us to the Europa League championship that year as well, in 2017? Doing it all as our only attacker on the right side, without a proper winger. The disrespect is way beyond scandalous.

 

[JohnnyLaw]

You don’t seem to acknowledge his severe leg break nor his role, which was that of a 2-way winger, *not* a wing-forward. Valencia got praise for being so dominant up and down his flank and also for being exceptional at keeping width, enabling those inside channel players to play in more space.

There’s a distinct difference between pre and post leg-break Valencia, too. Pre, he was a lot trickier, post, he got the shin-crosser moniker because he approached the game differently, but became much more forceful and power-based. That’s also why he could move to FB and be so effective.

The players you’ve listed weren’t 2-way. Well, maybe Ribery. Bale wasn’t at all interested in defending when he was a FB, either.

Why would I need to acknowledge his injury, his best season came after it?

Just like you are describing is what came to be the modern day full-back and still is largely. It’s also the same attributes Dorgu contribute which is why I reckon he’ll either be a full-back or moved on.

I don’t care if they’re two-way or not. The point is that those players wereforst and foremost attackers and stayed as such. Valencia was never that good an attacker and that along with the strenghts you listed is why he was eventually moved back.

 

[JohnnyLaw]

He also won players' player of the year twice, which I think is the most impressive award, considering it's United own teammates choosing. He won it in 2011/2012, and 2016/2017, the year both Guardiola and Mourinho placed him as the top right back in the world. Also, only United player to do it at two different positions. Didn't he captain us to the Europa League championship that year as well, in 2017? Doing it all as our only attacker on the right side, without a proper winger. The disrespect is way beyond scandalous.

I’m only talking about the season where he was deployed as a winger. I very much rated Valencia the full-back.

 

[Fortitude]

Why would I need to acknowledge his injury, his best season came after it?

Just like you are describing is what came to be the modern day full-back and still is largely. It’s also the same attributes Dorgu contribute which is why I reckon he’ll either be a full-back or moved on.

I don’t care if they’re two-way or not. The point is that those players wereforst and foremost attackers and stayed as such. Valencia was never that good an attacker and that along with the strenghts you listed is why he was eventually moved back.

Because it makes little sense to compare different kinds of flanker like that when from the outset their jobs are so different. So you should care. Like for like or your point is redundant from the outset.

Valencia was a different player post injury, not better.

 

[JohnnyLaw]

Because it makes little sense to compare different kinds of flanker like that when from the outset their jobs are so different. So you should care. Like for like or your point is redundant from the outset.

Valencia was a different player post injury, not better.

But Valencia had that role because he didn’t have the attacking qualities that those other players in my example had. That’s the point. That’s why he didn’t have a long term future as a winger at a top club whilst the others did.

Wether he was impacted by his injury or not is completely besides the point, not that I think it changed him nearly as much as you argue. There’s little difference between 09/10 edition of Valencia vs the 11/12 one.

 

[NoPace]

Dorgu’s played on the right aswell, that’s not the issue for me. He just lacks too many of the traits that you need to be played in attack at this level.

Just like for example Young and Valencia, he will eventually end up in a defensive role.

I agree.

Didn't even consider him on the right, because he seems to lack the close control and first touch you would need for that role, apart from maybe the odd game where we're on the counter.

He looked pretty up for it defensively when Carrick narrowed the midfield without the ball and had Dorgu and Amad tucked in a bit to help Casemiro and Mainoo. Different job as an orthodox LB, but he's got the tools.

 

[Sandikan]

What happens if Shaw gets injured? We play Malacia?

We can unleash the Dorg.

Who surprised us all with his attacking form pre injury, when we all thought his attacking was his weakest element.
Not having to do that impossible Amorim wing back role might mean he could do a good job at left back too.

 

[Dominos]

We can unleash the Dorg.

Who surprised us all with his attacking form pre injury, when we all thought his attacking was his weakest element.
Not having to do that impossible Amorim wing back role might mean he could do a good job at left back too.

It's not enough depth to have Dorgu doubling up as both our left wing cover for Cunha and left back cover for Shaw. Not with Shaw's injury record and the fact we'll be back in Europe next season.

We need either a left winger or left back.

 

[Bondi77]

Valencia was the ‘best winger in the world’ according to Guardiola. It’s an exaggeration, but the disrespect of Valencia here is scandalous.

Shocking isn't it?
We have players that have been at the club and won league titles and supposed supporters endlessly criticise them.

 

[Ali Dia]

I'd rather we signed a great LB who gives us width instead of a winger. I'd rotate Dorgu with LB and LW next season and hope for the best again. It's midfield that is most exposed and has to be the urgent priority.

 

[JohnnyLaw]

Valencia was the ‘best winger in the world’ according to Guardiola. It’s an exaggeration, but the disrespect of Valencia here is scandalous.

..right now”

You left that out.

That was in 2012 if i’m not mistaken. His best season for us, so it wasn’t undeserved at the time.

Shocking isn't it?
We have players that have been at the club and won league titles and supposed supporters endlessly criticise them.

Mate, it’s only me in here making this argument.

I loved Valencia for what he was and I was happy to see him switched to full-back as I thought it suited his game more, especially with the direction football was moving.

I’m not making trying to make out that he was some awful player, just a limited attacker which I think is fair.