Nazi concentration camp secretary trial

[antohan]

This woman didn't just type every communication, she also initialed them on behalf of her boss, she knew what the papers contained and their effect.

I didn't realise how young she was when Hitler came to power, but, at the same time, she would have been reading the words in front of her and known what they meant.

I know, and I'm not defending her. The fact 78 years later she is avoiding this doesn't reflect well on her at all.

But still, the real cretins and scumbags as far as I'm concerned are those who were adults in 1933. I have a hard time getting angry with those who were kids throughout, brainwashed, conditioned and bullied from an early age. I see those as victims of sorts too, to be honest. Imagine that being your childhood, then the war (and yes, an 18 year old is a minute cog in the grand scheme of things), then the rest of your life getting shit for it, warranted or not. It's a pretty fecking miserable life these people were born into.

Yes, I know, the same holds for Jewish kids, except for all the pain and suffering, those surviving had the rest of their lives to make the most of without that log-sized chip on their shoulder.

 

[oates]

I know, and I'm not defending her. The fact 78 years later she is avoiding this doesn't reflect well on her at all.

But still, the real cretins and scumbags as far as I'm concerned are those who were adults in 1933. I have a hard time getting angry with those who were kids throughout, brainwashed, conditioned and bullied from an early age. I see those as victims of sorts too, to be honest. Imagine that being your childhood, then the war (and yes, an 18 year old is a minute cog in the grand scheme of things), then the rest of your life getting shit for it, warranted or not. It's a pretty fecking miserable life these people were born into.

Yes, I know, the same holds for Jewish kids, except for all the pain and suffering, those surviving had the rest of their lives to make the most of without that log-sized chip on their shoulder.

Yes, fair points, I'm sure there's an element of young kids doing what their elders did or wanted of them but there's still knowing what is right and wrong. These jews that were killed weren't combatants, they couldn't fight back, in some cases everything they had that could be turned to value including their gold teeth was taken from their dead bodies. The people who did this had choices.

I don't think I'm quite sure what you mean talking about log sized chips on shoulders but I can tell you that what happened to their mothers, fathers and siblings stays with you all your life, you deal with people suffering from the worst PTSD that was barely acknowledged if at all, what was visited on them was visited in one form or another on further generations and this isn't something I would think that they would take kindly to being schooled to.

For the Nazi parents, for a whole generation you have to wonder how long their sins are visited on the next generations too.

 

[nickm]

Yes, i wonder why someone, probably born in the 80s, 90s or even 00s, would hate someone that deeply (to be able to write and feel something as hateful as the comments i have quoted above), for something a person at the age of 18 may or may not have known (there is no prove yet in this specific case, isn't it?) almost a century ago.


I hope this sentence is written understandable.

I shouldn't have to explain why it is necessary to hate fcuking nazis with every fiber of your being.

 

[Peter van der Gea]

I know, and I'm not defending her. The fact 78 years later she is avoiding this doesn't reflect well on her at all.

But still, the real cretins and scumbags as far as I'm concerned are those who were adults in 1933. I have a hard time getting angry with those who were kids throughout, brainwashed, conditioned and bullied from an early age. I see those as victims of sorts too, to be honest. Imagine that being your childhood, then the war (and yes, an 18 year old is a minute cog in the grand scheme of things), then the rest of your life getting shit for it, warranted or not. It's a pretty fecking miserable life these people were born into.

Yes, I know, the same holds for Jewish kids, except for all the pain and suffering, those surviving had the rest of their lives to make the most of without that log-sized chip on their shoulder.

"Victims of sorts" is kind of the problem I'm looking at here. See, the things is that there were others who also had similar of not the same upbringing who didn't go on to do the things this lady did. You see it in loads of places where kids are being abused, physically, sexually or emotionally. Some go on to be abusers, some don't and become excellent members of society, some get into a mess and some become twisted into predators. She went on to become an assistant to the predators.

With regards to "getting shit for it", how? She's 96, living much, much longer than some of the people she signed the death forms for, and I can't imagine she's spent the last 78 with a symbol sewn to her clothes for people to identify and "give her shit".

 

[Carolina Red]

*This article was amended on 30 September 2021. An earlier version said that Stutthof camp was “in Nazi-occupied Poland”. In fact it was in the Nazi-occupied area of the Free City of Danzig.

All that stuff surrounding Danzig, who did it belong to? The camp was in the part of the world that the Wehrmacht invaded and the SS killed 90+% of the Jews in. She knew exactly where she was going.

 

[BIGbadBOO4]

Personally, crimes like this cannot have a time limit. She deserves to be punished, it bodes well for the future if people today act like this again.

 

[do.ob]

Considering Sophie Scholl was about the same age and was beheaded after a public show trial for speaking out against the Nazi regime the same year this woman decided to work at a concentration camp in Occupied Poland, I don’t feel one damn bit of sympathy for her. She can fecking rot.

And how many young people lived up the example set by Sophie Scholl at the time? I think it's absolutely right that this trial is happening, but I find it hard to lay my contemporary set of morals and knowledge over someone who was an 18 year old girl at the time, 80 years ago, and lived her entire life up that point getting blasted by propaganda. I think morally it's important to know what she did after the war, though admittedly marrying a former SS officer is not a good sign.

 

[Carolina Red]

Not sure you can fairly damn someone for not having the stones to speak out and get beheaded, seems a bit harsh. Given the whole economy was pretty much geared for war, most jobs could be seen as facilitating the Nazis in some capacity- the camps obviously being a particularly grim example. The country was also coming out of depression for the early to mid-30s, so not clear how much you could pick and choose on jobs, particularly outside of large urban areas.

I really don’t care what it seems like. I spent a year of my history degree studying the Holocaust and Nazi Germany and from that I am quite confident in telling you that she knew exactly what she was getting herself into. The “I didn’t know” is a rehearsed line of bullshit. People her age knew right from wrong and chose right. She chose to work at Stuffhof. I am content in my judgment of that and stand by it.

 

[George Owen]

All that stuff surrounding Danzig, who did it belong to? The camp was in the part of the world that the Wehrmacht invaded and the SS killed 90+% of the Jews in. She knew exactly where she was going.

Hey, I'm with you. Don't think it makes a difference. No sympathy for her either way. Just pointing that out because I just read the article.

 

[antohan]

I don't think I'm quite sure what you mean talking about log sized chips on shoulders but I can tell you that what happened to their mothers, fathers and siblings stays with you all your life, you deal with people suffering from the worst PTSD that was barely acknowledged if at all, what was visited on them was visited in one form or another on further generations and this isn't something I would think that they would take kindly to being schooled to.

For the Nazi parents, for a whole generation you have to wonder how long their sins are visited on the next generations too.

By no means did I mean to downplay the aftermath for the victims, just pointing out there's the upside of knowing you've done nothing wrong, as opposed to what you allude to in the final paragraph.

 

[antohan]

"Victims of sorts" is kind of the problem I'm looking at here. See, the things is that there were others who also had similar of not the same upbringing who didn't go on to do the things this lady did. You see it in loads of places where kids are being abused, physically, sexually or emotionally. Some go on to be abusers, some don't and become excellent members of society, some get into a mess and some become twisted into predators. She went on to become an assistant to the predators.

Absolutely. A fair chunk of that has no innate defence mechanism and has a lot more to do with your context and the people in your life. I have a hard time character assassinating someone who was eight, maybe even seven, when it all started. Whatever their choices were are far more down to random luck of having the right people around you, or not.

 

[Carolina Red]

Hey, I'm with you. Don't think it makes a difference. No sympathy for her either way. Just pointing that out because I just read the article.

Word. Apologies.

 

[oates]

By no means did I mean to downplay the aftermath for the victims, just pointing out there's the upside of knowing you've done nothing wrong, as opposed to what you allude to in the final paragraph.

It's okay, I wasn't sure of your meaning.

It is understandable that some posters are questioning the strong statements of revulsion for Nazis, obviously they wonder at the strength of those feelings but it is as I mentioned, in many countries we'd perhaps hope that these feelings become in some way less but whether you had relatives who were active in combat, those who dealt with loss, stress or even the loss of people in camps or survivors for one reason or another, certainly in the UK a manner of famously keeping a stiff upper lip at the time after the war, people were expected to get on with a new life that had changed beyond all recognition. There was no such thing as counselling, the people kept it all within and this genuinely had a way of trickling down into subsequent generations a way of having to deal with it all, certainly in the UK there is strength of feeling for what has been the cause but certainly not for the innocent. We're still dealing with National Psychology to a large extent.

 

[nimic]

I think it's vital that we keep our hatred of Nazism/fascism fresh, otherwise we might not be able to see it coming a second time. It's particularly important now that the actual survivors of the war, anyone who lived through it, are becoming rarer and rarer. I remember taking my history class to a talk by someone who lived through it. He wasn't special, really, he wasn't Jewish and he didn't spend time in a concentration camp or anything like that, but he was still a direct connection to a time when Norway was occupied and there were tens of thousands of collaborators (ranging from the worst war criminals to people wanting to get ahead by joining the Party).

That was 7-8 years ago by now, and I honestly have no idea if he's even still alive, or able to articulate how it felt. Or how the time leading up to it felt.

 

[P-Ro]

Holy shit. So hateful.

You guys don't know the person. You don't know her involvement. You don't know what she knows or knew. You basically don't know anything and still you are judging an 18 year old girl, 80 years ago, working as a secretary like this.

Where is your deep hate coming from?

I'm sure she was one of the nicer Nazis working in the death camps. Wishing her all the best after she bravely fled from her trial x

 

[calodo2003]

I think it's vital that we keep our hatred of Nazism/fascism fresh, otherwise we might not be able to see it coming a second time. It's particularly important now that the actual survivors of the war, anyone who lived through it, are becoming rarer and rarer. I remember taking my history class to a talk by someone who lived through it. He wasn't special, really, he wasn't Jewish and he didn't spend time in a concentration camp or anything like that, but he was still a direct connection to a time when Norway was occupied and there were tens of thousands of collaborators (ranging from the worst war criminals to people wanting to get ahead by joining the Party).

That was 7-8 years ago by now, and I honestly have no idea if he's even still alive, or able to articulate how it felt. Or how the time leading up to it felt.

Just seeing the fascist, authoritarian lurches in some countries around the globe in recent years should enthuse every sane, cogent citizen of the world to detest fascism right now. Despising Nazis is a logical extension of that, no matter how old one is.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Considering that likes of Operation Paperclip has existed, this just feels like a publicity stunt.

The money spent on this trials is better spent in identifying and capturing leaders who are wealthy and living incognito in other countries.

 

[nimic]

Pretty sure they're all dead by now.

 

[choccy77]

Ex-Nazi concentration camp secretary, 96, caught after fleeing before trial


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...i-concentration-camp-secretary-96-faces-trial

Looking beyond the Guardian's guff about her 'being on the run' and 'fleeing', despite being 96 year old, the case is interesting.

She was an 18 year typist, hardly someone making orders, so seems vindictive to pursue her. I can understand some will have zero sympathy, but her being 'complicit in the murder of thousands' seems a stretch.

Would the Caf put her on trial?

Watch the film The Reader

 

[OutlawGER]

I'm sure she was one of the nicer Nazis working in the death camps. Wishing her all the best after she bravely fled from her trial x

Yeah, it must have been hard to catch a 96 old from fleeing. What was she using? A motorcycle?

 

[choccy77]

Yeah, it must have been hard to catch a 96 old from fleeing. What was she using? A motorcycle?

That was Supergran

 

[Peter van der Gea]

Absolutely. A fair chunk of that has no innate defence mechanism and has a lot more to do with your context and the people in your life. I have a hard time character assassinating someone who was eight, maybe even seven, when it all started. Whatever their choices were are far more down to random luck of having the right people around you, or not.

That is not true, and I am saying that as someone who was abused, in all the ways I mentioned, someone who became one of the "messed up ones" and someone who's worked really fecking hard to sort myself out and someone who has been married to a Dr of Psychology for over a decade.

There was a reason I said those who become abusers and those who become predators as separate categories.

Most abusers who were abused are less aware of the extent of the abuse they give out, usually to those who are closest to them, and tend to end up in a place where they abuse without foresight or planning. On top of that, there's often an inebriate or situation that raises adrenaline to unnatural levels, usually because of repressed trauma. That can end up being normalized so much you get intergenerational trauma.

Predators are different, they go out of their way to abuse, usually on random victims. They tend to understand why they are fecked up and believe it gives them a right to act a certain way. They also gain pleasure in the abuse and will actively seek out opportunities to enact abuse.

I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm going off on you, it's just using child abuse to excuse evil behaviour really scares me as much as people not understanding the trauma and damage that child abuse, grooming, propaganda can cause.

 

[stevoc]

In Germany a 96 year old who worked at a camp as a secretary when she was 18 is being publicly named and put on trial.

Meanwhile in the UK, soldiers who actually pulled the trigger and murdered civilians have their names covered by pseudonyms and are being protected from trial and prosecution by Politicians waffling on about drawing lines and moving on.

 

[Kinsella]

It should do. She was complicit, paperwork, communications, orders would all have aided the proficient murder of Jews.

'She didn't know'. - This is what the ones alive and living in Germany and Austria at the time to mention just those 2 countries say. 'We had no idea, we didn't know'. I'm afraid that generation knew. It's frightening really, our own relatives were swept up in a madness that worries me if I would be any different in the same circumstance. What compelled them? Fear, terror or revenge of some sort?

People will also justify all kinds of things when it suits them.

 

[HTG]

I really don’t care what it seems like. I spent a year of my history degree studying the Holocaust and Nazi Germany and from that I am quite confident in telling you that she knew exactly what she was getting herself into. The “I didn’t know” is a rehearsed line of bullshit. People her age knew right from wrong and chose right. She chose to work at Stuffhof. I am content in my judgment of that and stand by it.

Thanks for your posts here. Sadly the "they didn't know" excuse is still very prevalent in Germany.

 

[Carolina Red]

Thanks for your posts here. Sadly the "they didn't know" excuse is still very prevalent in Germany.

I appreciate that. And it is very unfortunate that that myth has been perpetuated. Traudl Junge*, Hitler’s personal secretary, came to terms with that herself - after seeing a plaque memorializing Sophie Scholl - and realized that she was complicit in what happened. This woman needs to do the same.


* I did a research case study on Junge and wrote back then that I did not buy (and still don’t) her story that she didn’t know of the Holocaust while serving as Hitler’s personal secretary. “I didn’t know” was a coping mechanism used to deal with a great deal of collective guilt after 1945.

 

[Carolina Red]

People will also justify all kinds of things when it suits them.

Reminds me of the old racist grandpas that I’ve known throughout my life who very likely ran around in white bedsheets in their younger days. The body is aged, but their minds still have the fecked ideas of their youth in them.

Not to mention the “clean Wehrmacht” story they’re peddling there is as big a myth as the “Lost Cause” one the southern racists tell.

 

[HTG]

I appreciate that. And it is very unfortunate that that myth has been perpetuated. Traudl Junge*, Hitler’s personal secretary, came to terms with that herself - after seeing a plaque memorializing Sophie Scholl - and realized that she was complicit in what happened. This woman needs to do the same.


* I did a research case study on Junge and wrote back then that I did not buy (and still don’t) her story that she didn’t know of the Holocaust while serving as Hitler’s personal secretary. “I didn’t know” was a coping mechanism used to deal with a great deal of collective guilt after 1945.

And the generations after them gladly continued it. Because who would want to know something like this about their parents? It’s much easier to go on and pretend nobody really knew anything, despite the obviousness of it all.

 

[P-Ro]

Yeah, it must have been hard to catch a 96 old from fleeing. What was she using? A motorcycle?

It's bizarre to me that you are so sympathetic to this Nazi who skipped her trial. You're a lost cause.

 

[Carolina Red]

And the generations after them gladly continued it. Because who would want to know something like this about their parents? It’s much easier to go on and pretend nobody really knew anything, despite the obviousness of it all.

I’ve thought about that a lot in the last couple of years, honestly, with the way people realized their grandparents were racist because of how they reacted to things like BLM. I’d imagine no German wanted to have that conversation of “so [family member], what were you doing 1933-1945?” the same way folks avoided asking parents or grandparents about what they did during desegregation & the civil rights movement.

 

[oates]

People will also justify all kinds of things when it suits them.

It all falls apart the moment the lady talks about facts, then the one man jumps on the opportunity to blame the Resistance for the Wehrmacht taking off 600 men from the area. Marching into the Netherlands without permission then becomes an old soldiers joke.

There has to be a coping mechanism in place for dealing all your life with the atrocities. Or not when you still secretly support what was done and could still meet up with like minded. They're all dying out now but if we think it didn't all have an effect on the following generations then I think that would be a mistake.

 

[fergosaurus]

She deserved to spend her prime years in prison as far as I'm concerned. It's likely she'll appeal any sentence and then serve very little, if any of it, because of her age.

People are using her being young at the time as an excuse, but she still married a Nazi nine years after the war, when she was around 30. I've used up all my sympathy for the 65k people who died at the camp, unfortunately I have none left for scum like her.

 

[Mike Smalling]

People will also justify all kinds of things when it suits them.

The comments on YouTube - Christ.

 

[calodo2003]

The comments on YouTube - Christ.

Your post should be an auto fill. I’ve never seen anyone actually give the YT comments section any praise.

 

[Wibble]

She is going to trial, the court will determine her culpability.

I don't like this 'We were only obeying orders business'. Never have. Carpenters, secretaries, soldiers, whoever aided the murder of 6 million jews they should be tried. I'm sure you wouldn't want to tell me that you had some small hand in the efficient parcelling off of a race to the next life but were only obeying orders, not enjoying it, not the first each time to volunteer?

I agree. Even if her role was relatively minor she was far closer to the actual killing than most and knew exactly what was happening. The ideal outcome, given her age, is a trial where she pleades guilty, shows genuine remorse and gets a symbolic sentence.

 

[oates]

The comments on YouTube - Christ.

He knows the truth not the Jew feminist

- Neuschwabenland

Cnt.

 

[VorZakone]

I'm gonna play devil's advocate here ans hopefully I'm making my point clear.

The ease with which people expect other people to risk their life is a bit scary to me. Look at Sophie Scholl, killed by guillotine. Not every citizen has Sophie's courage, nor do I personally expect that.

Mind, I'm not saying I know all the ins and outs of this particular case and whether this secretary could have just not applied or whatever. I mean in general this "Germans knew what was happening" argument and that therefore German citizens had to do something about it.

Again, not everybody has the courage to risk execution.

 

[Penna]

Yeah, it must have been hard to catch a 96 old from fleeing. What was she using? A motorcycle?

An Uber and a train, evidently. She's completely competent if she can arrange to do that.

 

[Wibble]

I'm gonna play devil's advocate here ans hopefully I'm making my point clear.

The ease with which people expect other people to risk their life is a bit scary to me. Look at Sophie Scholl, killed by guillotine. Not every citizen has Sophie's courage, nor do I personally expect that.

Mind, I'm not saying I know all the ins and outs of this particular case and whether this secretary could have just not applied or whatever. I mean in general this "Germans knew what was happening" argument and that therefore German citizens had to do something about it.

Again, not everybody has the courage to risk execution.

And then you need to take any consequences that flow from that.

 

[VorZakone]

And then you need to take any consequences that flow from that.

I guess that's for a trial to determine. I personally just don't put this enormous burden on citizens to have risked their life. Those who do obviously are heros and should be remembered but that is a very high standard to expect from most citizens.