Neville - ‘’no style of play’’

Yeah our tactics don't exist within a vacuum ie the other team has a say in that. If they play a low block then how do you get these 1 v 1s? I think we're doing fine with what we have. There's only Garnacho in attack with pace to stretch a defence and create these 1 v 1s. If it was as easy as you seem to naively think, wouldn't every coach just say 'yeah go out there lads and look for those 1 v 1s'? Unfortunately for you it apparently is a bit complex to understand the nuance behind these things and the issues we have.

You are making it more complex than it is. The coach is designed to set you up for success. Yes obviously there is an opposition to play but what’s new.

Amorim sets up his sides to exploit space in transition on the wings which are mainly occupied by our fullbacks. Rather those be our attacking skilful players.

It worked with Amad. Why? Because he’s an attacker.

This game alone look how many good situations Dorgu has been in and wasted.
 
You are making it more complex than it is. The coach is designed to set you up for success. Yes obviously there is an opposition to play but what’s new.

Amorim sets up his sides to exploit space in transition on the wings which are mainly occupied by our fullbacks. Rather those be our attacking skilful players.

It worked with Amad. Why? Because he’s an attacker.

This game alone look how many good situations Dorgu has been in and wasted.

Dorgu also created a chance that Hojlund should’ve done better with. How many clear chances a half should a wide player create?

This isn’t to say Dorgu couldn’t do better but we’ve played 4-2-3-1 a lot this season too and Garnacho etc were equally useless at beating a player and creating chances.

We just need better players full stop.
 
You are making it more complex than it is. The coach is designed to set you up for success. Yes obviously there is an opposition to play but what’s new.

Amorim sets up his sides to exploit space in transition on the wings which are mainly occupied by our fullbacks. Rather those be our attacking skilful players.

It worked with Amad. Why? Because he’s an attacker.

This game alone look how many good situations Dorgu has been in and wasted.

So we do get 1 v 1s?

I’ve discussed it with another poster after my response to you. The issues lie with our players. The system is set up to stretch teams and create overloads in wide areas too. The issue is our players not utilising our wide players well enough.
 
If Neville can't see our style of play in the last few weeks then he's fecking blind.
 
Person has a different opinion equals lack of sight. Where do people formulate such opinions?

I mean tbh it's pretty obvious our style of play involves wide WBs who try to stretch the play and overload areas, pressing high up the pitch, pretty direct football, compact high line, etc. I just think Neville was being glib and if we were winning more whilst still playing the same way he would be saying that we're seeing a clear style of play.
 
I mean tbh it's pretty obvious our style of play involves wide WBs who try to stretch the play and overload areas, pressing high up the pitch, pretty direct football, compact high line, etc. I just think Neville was being glib and if we were winning more whilst still playing the same way he would be saying that we're seeing a clear style of play.
Not everyone has bright eyes.
 
The style of play is evident though.
The only issue now is quality in certain roles. Whereas before it was practically everything, with players unfamiliar to thier roles positionally and tactically.

Honestly I feel alot more confident in our football in recent weeks than I have done in recent months.

The style is there and it's clear as day.
The players now know what they're doing this set up.
It just boils down to talent, primarily in offense.
 
Yeah, really good insight that bit and something they should do more of on the podcast actually.



From c. 40mins for anyone wanting to listen.

Finally, mainstream pundits are clocking onto this. Took their time mind.
The default was to say “the game is getting faster and is better”.
Insufferable bullshit trotted out year in year out, even on here I’ve had several arguments about this.

There is no way in hell it is faster, it’s slower, more ponderous and there are more and more boring games. Especially in the Premier League.
Incessant possession recycling, cynical fouling, passing back to the keeper, reduction in risk taking, Putting centre backs at full back, the list is endless.

Watching PSG the other night was hopefully an eye opener to those who think the Prem is at its peak atm quality wise. Theres been a sharp decline since 2022 imo.
PSG have proper attacking wing backs, proper wingers with flair, pace and taking risk. The closest team in the prem who try and play with that kinda freedom is probably Newcastle (which they mentioned).
 
Finally, mainstream pundits are clocking onto this. Took their time mind.
The default was to say “the game is getting faster and is better”.
Insufferable bullshit trotted out year in year out, even on here I’ve had several arguments about this.

There is no way in hell it is faster, it’s slower, more ponderous and there are more and more boring games. Especially in the Premier League.
Incessant possession recycling, cynical fouling, passing back to the keeper, reduction in risk taking, Putting centre backs at full back, the list is endless.

Watching PSG the other night was hopefully an eye opener to those who think the Prem is at its peak atm quality wise. Theres been a sharp decline since 2022 imo.
PSG have proper attacking wing backs, proper wingers with flair, pace and taking risk. The closest team in the prem who try and play with that kinda freedom is probably Newcastle (which they mentioned).

If you had to through a team in the hate that probably represented the Prem of old? I’d probably say Newcastle.

There’s nothing wrong with what they are saying bang on the money. I think a lot of people in this chat seem to think this is just a reflection on United. The only thing I would say and hope is that are focus is similar to Newcastle with progressive aggressive players. However the guy that helped with Newcastle we just gave the boot.

So god knows what our team will look like playing wise next season.
 
Finally, mainstream pundits are clocking onto this. Took their time mind.
The default was to say “the game is getting faster and is better”.
Insufferable bullshit trotted out year in year out, even on here I’ve had several arguments about this.

There is no way in hell it is faster, it’s slower, more ponderous and there are more and more boring games. Especially in the Premier League.
Incessant possession recycling, cynical fouling, passing back to the keeper, reduction in risk taking, Putting centre backs at full back, the list is endless.

Watching PSG the other night was hopefully an eye opener to those who think the Prem is at its peak atm quality wise. Theres been a sharp decline since 2022 imo.
PSG have proper attacking wing backs, proper wingers with flair, pace and taking risk. The closest team in the prem who try and play with that kinda freedom is probably Newcastle (which they mentioned).
Why? Aston Villa are CL newbies and outside the top 4 in the PL currently.
PSG did very well with Liverpool but have themselves lost to Arsenal in the same campaign. The CL table shows that PL teams are among the best quite clearly.
 
Finally, mainstream pundits are clocking onto this. Took their time mind.
The default was to say “the game is getting faster and is better”.
Insufferable bullshit trotted out year in year out, even on here I’ve had several arguments about this.

There is no way in hell it is faster, it’s slower, more ponderous and there are more and more boring games. Especially in the Premier League.
Incessant possession recycling, cynical fouling, passing back to the keeper, reduction in risk taking, Putting centre backs at full back, the list is endless.

Watching PSG the other night was hopefully an eye opener to those who think the Prem is at its peak atm quality wise. Theres been a sharp decline since 2022 imo.
PSG have proper attacking wing backs, proper wingers with flair, pace and taking risk. The closest team in the prem who try and play with that kinda freedom is probably Newcastle (which they mentioned).
I think the best sides of late 90s to late 2000s would hammer the best teams now.
 
Tired of Neville, Keane, Scholes etc. Rest of us trying to grasp the positives from our games and these guys kill the hope. Give it a fecking rest lads. We know things are nowhere near the standard they played at but telling us every five minutes is boring now.
 
Finally, mainstream pundits are clocking onto this. Took their time mind.
The default was to say “the game is getting faster and is better”.
Insufferable bullshit trotted out year in year out, even on here I’ve had several arguments about this.

There is no way in hell it is faster, it’s slower, more ponderous and there are more and more boring games. Especially in the Premier League.
Incessant possession recycling, cynical fouling, passing back to the keeper, reduction in risk taking, Putting centre backs at full back, the list is endless.

Watching PSG the other night was hopefully an eye opener to those who think the Prem is at its peak atm quality wise. Theres been a sharp decline since 2022 imo.
PSG have proper attacking wing backs, proper wingers with flair, pace and taking risk. The closest team in the prem who try and play with that kinda freedom is probably Newcastle (which they mentioned).
They can play like that over a full season because they can rest and rotate their players constantly as their league is not competitive. There are more games in England and the league is way, way more competitive. If top teams in the prem were to play like PSG they’d have to A) be bankrolled by a nation state to be able to field two first 11s in order to rotate world class players (hello Pep) - or B) they’d play like that for a few months and then quickly burn out.
 
They can play like that over a full season because they can rest and rotate their players constantly as their league is not competitive. There are more games in England and the league is way, way more competitive. If top teams in the prem were to play like PSG they’d have to A) be bankrolled by a nation state to be able to field two first 11s in order to rotate world class players (hello Pep) - or B) they’d play like that for a few months and then quickly burn out.
What the hell does them having attacking wing backs and pacey flair wingers have to do with how many games they play during a season.
A players profile, attributes, natural ability doesn’t change based on resting and rotation. What a bizarre response.
 
Tired of Neville, Keane, Scholes etc. Rest of us trying to grasp the positives from our games and these guys kill the hope. Give it a fecking rest lads. We know things are nowhere near the standard they played at but telling us every five minutes is boring now.
Scholes other night was annoying. It's like he hadn't watched the game and just came in with his usual script.
 
Obviously Neville's take is bullshit but I was watching City against Palace and we have no where near the same level of positional rotations and fluidity that they have and it made me wonder if Amorim's system is too rigid.

You know that the 3 defenders are the 3 defenders for example. You won't have a wing back making the three for a bit and Bruno dropping in there with Yoro in the middle for a few seconds and so on.

With City, you get all these robot like players popping up at random places and it makes it a nightmare to press them. The best way to get results against them still remains to just sit deep and counter. I've never seen anyone (other than peak Klopp) keep up with their movement. The way they move the press around and eventually beat it is a thing of real beauty.

If I have a problem with Amorim it's just this. If backed I believe in him enough to get us close to top 4-6 but I wonder if he's really an elite coach like Pep, Klopp, Arteta etc.

One of our coaches alluded to Arteta having time to drill 100s of build up patterns into the side and he was bemoaning the fact that he didn't have that sort of time. I forget who, maybe it's Ralf. This is basically what I'm alluding to.
 
You won't have a wing back making the three for a bit and Bruno dropping in there with Yoro in the middle for a few seconds and so on.
It happened the other night against Lyon. Mazraoui ended up coming into midfield to track their left winger who dropped deep. Dalot tucked in and made it a back three.
 
Obviously Neville's take is bullshit but I was watching City against Palace and we have no where near the same level of positional rotations and fluidity that they have and it made me wonder if Amorim's system is too rigid.

You know that the 3 defenders are the 3 defenders for example. You won't have a wing back making the three for a bit and Bruno dropping in there with Yoro in the middle for a few seconds and so on.

With City, you get all these robot like players popping up at random places and it makes it a nightmare to press them. The best way to get results against them still remains to just sit deep and counter. I've never seen anyone (other than peak Klopp) keep up with their movement. The way they move the press around and eventually beat it is a thing of real beauty.

If I have a problem with Amorim it's just this. If backed I believe in him enough to get us close to top 4-6 but I wonder if he's really an elite coach like Pep, Klopp, Arteta etc.

One of our coaches alluded to Arteta having time to drill 100s of build up patterns into the side and he was bemoaning the fact that he didn't have that sort of time. I forget who, maybe it's Ralf. This is basically what I'm alluding to.
I'm tried but couldn't find this video I saw a while back which did a good job of explaining his style and how it defers from other coaches like pep.
There are generally two schools of thought: positional vs relational styles of play.
There was a study about this, ranked managers on which of the two sides they're on.

Amorim like Di zerbi is positional whereas the Peps and Luis Enriques are relational.
one isn't necessarily better than the other and there's flexibility within positional play as well. We just need our players to learn the basics first.

Found it!
 
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There's definitely a style, it's just not particularly attractive with us. We don't have the right players for the roles and unfortunately, it creates space for the full backs to be free who aren't creative enough.
 
It happened the other night against Lyon. Mazraoui ended up coming into midfield to track their left winger who dropped deep. Dalot tucked in and made it a back three.

I'm tried but couldn't find this video I saw a while back which did a good job of explaining his style and how it defers from other coaches like pep.
There are generally two schools of thought: positional vs relational styles of play.
There was a study about this, ranked managers on which of the two sides they're on.

Amorim like Di zerbi is positional whereas the Peps and Luis Enriques are relational.
one isn't necessarily better than the other and there's flexibility within positional play as well. We just need our players to learn the basics first.

Found it!


I guess today's display was artifact #1 to be presented as my criticism. You can say what you want about the philosophy but ultimately the fact of the matter is we can't deal with a simple man to man press on the build up if the other side has a physical advantage. I've never seen De Zerbi's team's be so outclassed against M2M systems, physical disadvantage or not.

You need some sort of advantage (technical, tactical, physical) to discourage a very aggressive M2M press. Ideally all of these in different areas of the pitch.

Tactical it doesn't seem like we going to get that with Amorim's current system. The players stand around like traffic cones, staying in their positions during build up making the exact same movements up and down the pitch without any variation.

Physical - it's impossible to outfight a side like Newcastle. The good thing is not a lot of sides even in the PL have that level of physical dominance, so we'll mostly be fine if other sides decide to go this aggressive against us. We did generate some advantages here when Livramento went super aggressive on Dalot and he was able to turn and run leading to a few dangerous situations. We were basically out matched everywhere else on the pitch and no one won their duels. Ugarte got a bit of joy but he's a defensive player so even if he beats the initial pressure, you're not going to get a lot of threat from that.

Technical - We don't have a huge technical advantage, so our players could not execute any line breaking passes that could've hurt Newcastle. The moment Shaw came on, he showed off a couple of really solid passes through the middle and they were afraid of pressing him because he can run quite well with the ball. You need really guys of that level to gain consistent technical advantages against a thuggish team like Newcastle.

Anyway, I guess tl;dr Newcastle is our kryptonite right now and I'm not reading too much into this but something to keep an eye on. I would focus on build up effectiveness specifically. The moment I see us employing various tools (rotations, passing, going long, our players winning duels 1v1 and carrying the ball forward, passing breaking the lines) I'll go all in on Amorim.

You can keep an eye on metrics like Danger Zone losses below.


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