New formation trend in the PL

[Tosicsleftpeg]

I notice this weekend and in allot of pre season the vast majority of the league is playing 3 at the back with wing backs, most noticeably a formation used by Chelsea last year and now it looks like Man city have massively bought into it with the investment in Walker and Mendy etc.

Will it last?? There are quite a few expensive wide players in the prem who will suffer when it comes to a formation like that and would need to seriously adapt. On paper it does look a good system and allows teams to play 2 up top without having to sacrifice defensively. The only thing I could see being an issue is on the defensive side when a side with both a fullback and a winger could overlap and cause Maine problems for a wingback. That seemed to be happening a fair bit yesterday against Chelsea as Burnley exposed them a few times (admittedly they were a man light)

Just think it's interesting that everyone had now switched and it shows how much managers value a matching system to their opponents so as not to be caught out early on.

 

[Oooh_aaah_cantona]

Think it's a natural evolution for more attacking and pressing minded managers, as it allows you to field more at the top end of the pitch, without sacrificing too much stability behind.

Nowadays, full-backs are replacing the roles of natural wingers.

 

[Nevilles.Wear.Prada]

LVG saw the trend years ago. Amazing vision.

 

[flappyjay]

LVG saw the trend years ago. Amazing vision.

Very poor execution by him though, United fans see it as a cure for insomnia

 

[izec]

Very poor execution by him though, United fans see it as a cure for insomnia

We didnt have the players for it, also LVG didnt want to rock the boat with some players (Rooney), so was quite restricted.

 

[Crashoutcassius]

I managed a football team ( in a very low Dublin league) and went straight to 3-5-2. Think it's by far the best formation for lower leagues and kids, especially if playing against two strikers. I found that, when playing wingers, even if I got down the line the cross into the box would either be poor or the header would be poor. At the back you can play a very experienced sweeper that never has to mark and can organise everything. Biggest challenge was getting centre miss to support attack and knowing how defensive the cms should be. Do love the formation though

 

[Nevilles.Wear.Prada]

I managed a football team ( in a very low Dublin league) and went straight to 3-5-2. Think it's by far the best formation for lower leagues and kids, especially if playing against two strikers. I found that, when playing wingers, even if I got down the line the cross into the box would either be poor or the header would be poor. At the back you can play a very experienced sweeper that never has to mark and can organise everything. Biggest challenge was getting centre miss to support attack and knowing how defensive the cms should be. Do love the formation though

Whoa.. Do you have the save game file?

 

[MadDogg]

LVG saw the trend years ago. Amazing vision.

It was always obvious that LVG had a decent idea. He just had no idea of how to actually make it work, and no idea of what to do when his plan A didn't work.

 

[Raees]

Question is have the best teams in Europe adopted it yet?

 

[M Bison]

It was always obvious that LVG had a decent idea. He just had no idea of how to actually make it work, and no idea of what to do when his plan A didn't work.

It was never obvious, LvG was slated on here for using that formation!

 

[leontas]

LvG wanted to use the 3 at the back, but our squad was never really suitable for it so whenever it was utilised it was very badly executed. If he knew from the start that he wanted to go with a 3-5-2 formation, he should've invested heavily in wing backs.

 

[Ecstatic]

Chelsea won the title with a 3-5-2 system so you have the answer.

 

[LARulz]

When LVG did it he didn't have the players correct for it. He forced a formation on players who can't play it and then never really tried to sign players to fit the system. At Holland he did it the other way I think, saw the players and created the system to get the best out of them (well, RVP, Robben and Sneijder mainly).

The trend will fade if teams do not get the right players and scores go wrong. If all 20 teams start playing with 3 then some will lose a lot more than they win and eventually they'll change back.

 

[Scarecrow]

"Didn't have the players for it" is an excuse that became popular much later. What I remember is a lot of people at the time saying 3 at the back is just a shit formation and it would never work in the Prem.

 

[KN5]

We didnt have the players for it, also LVG didnt want to rock the boat with some players (Rooney), so was quite restricted.

His playstyle didn't exactly help, lesser teams play this formation with what they have. We can't always use the excuse of not having the right players.

Edit: spot on @Scarecrow

 

[SilentWitness]

We started with 3 at the back yesterday to compensate for the absence of Coleman but looked far better when reverting back to a 4-2-3-1. It's only good in the PL if you want to sit back against the big teams and soak up the pressure really or if you're an oiled machine like Chelsea last season.

 

[ivaldo]

Whoa.. Do you have the save game file?

 

[Andersons Dietician]

It was always obvious that LVG had a decent idea. He just had no idea of how to actually make it work, and no idea of what to do when his plan A didn't work.

He got to a semi final did he not playing that with the Netherlands. Sure he knew how to make it work.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

Chelsea won the title with a 3-5-2 system so you have the answer.

No they didn't. It was 343

 

[JPRouve]

"Didn't have the players for it" is an excuse that became popular much later. What I remember is a lot of people at the time saying 3 at the back is just a shit formation and it would never work in the Prem.

I'm pretty sure that I said it from the start. I called it a "specialists" formation, you need a certain type of wide player and a certain type of CBs.

 

[JustFootballFan]

LVG saw the trend years ago. Amazing vision.

He didn´t have a vision. He´s just old enough to remember it from the last time teams played that way.

 

[MadDogg]

He got to a semi final did he not playing that with the Netherlands. Sure he knew how to make it work.

I meant more in the sense that he had no idea how to make our current players suit that formation, and also that he failed to bring in the right players to make it work. Probably more than just about any other formation out there, it relies heavily on having the right players.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

I meant more in the sense that he had no idea how to make our current players suit that formation, and also that he failed to bring in the right players to make it work. Probably more than just about any other formation out there, it relies heavily on having the right players.

Ah get you and I actually agree with that. For me he always lacked the midfield for it.

 

[endless_wheelies]

Think it's a natural evolution for more attacking and pressing minded managers, as it allows you to field more at the top end of the pitch, without sacrificing too much stability behind.

Nowadays, full-backs are replacing the roles of natural wingers.

Well that's not true, the wing back position is primarily filled by full backs and it merely removes a truly attacking player from the pitch; Conte doesn't exactly play Hazard and Pedro at wing back does he?

The formation is boring as sin.

 

[Peanut Butter]

LVG trialled 3-5-2 because he used it with the Netherlands and it proved successful at the World Cup 2014.

 

[kouroux]

I think many managers just lack imagination and just see what the most sucessful ones do and try to just basically copy them without even wondering if they have the real personel for it.

 

[Andycoleno9]

When lvg started that , i saw lots of comments from fans and pundits that 3 in defence can't work in england...

 

[freeurmind]

I'm pretty sure that I said it from the start. I called it a "specialists" formation, you need a certain type of wide player and a certain type of CBs.

I remember it led to a discussion between Neville and Carragher on MNF about wingbacks.

 

[Home&Away]

LvG wanted to use the 3 at the back, but our squad was never really suitable for it so whenever it was utilised it was very badly executed. If he knew from the start that he wanted to go with a 3-5-2 formation, he should've invested heavily in wing backs.

Our wingbacks for a team utilising 352 in his first season he moved valencia and young to fullbacks and generally worked well.

 

[Crashoutcassius]

Whoa.. Do you have the save game file?

haha it ended in tragedy, I moved into the city in January and watched them plummet down the table from 10 miles away

 

[Home&Away]

England will win some international trophies because of this formation. United, arsenal, city, spurs chelsea even the clubs lower down all utilising one to a similar formation line.

England need that one team in the PL to really kick on with it and I'm sure once the inevitable happens and we end up perfecting this formation (right now too many holes & a mixture of ideas); everything will kick in to gear.

LVG has the right ideas in his brain but spends way too much thinking.

 

[Lennon7]

Wing backs are probably the most important player in modern football. If you have a quick, fit and technical wingback who can attack and defend you'll go far. See Moses, Alonso, Valencia to an extent, Walker etc. Very important players.

That's why I think we need a better left back. Shaw would be ideal if fit but he's out for a while. Should go for Rose.

 

[Carolina Red]

Think it's a natural evolution for more attacking and pressing minded managers, as it allows you to field more at the top end of the pitch, without sacrificing too much stability behind.

Nowadays, full-backs are replacing the roles of natural wingers.

Yes... I remember reading an article a year or so ago (cannot remember exactly what it was on online) talking about this very thing. It said something along the lines of wingers still existing, they just play fullback now because of the extensive use of inverted wide forwards. Case in point... Valencia - an old school winger converted into a fullback.

The article also explained that statistics show that your inverted wide men will create more chances than a traditional winger, so it makes more sense to play them and have traditional crossing players in a secondary attacking role.

 

[Oooh_aaah_cantona]

T

Well that's not true, the wing back position is primarily filled by full backs and it merely removes a truly attacking player from the pitch; Conte doesn't exactly play Hazard and Pedro at wing back does he?

The formation is boring as sin.

Then that's essentially a 5-at the back formation. Conte doesn't play Hazard and Pedro there, but he plays Moses, previously a Winger.

 

[::sonny::]

When you don't have good CB you are forced to add one more to give more stability

 

[El cangrejo]

LVG saw the trend years ago. Amazing vision.

It was en vogue in Serie A for years before Van Gaal (reluctantly) used the formation with the Netherlands.

 

[sun_tzu]

It seems a fairly natural consequence of teams generally playing with 1 striker up front... as such rather than 4 defenders teams can play with 3 (typically one who can also step up into midfield (almost like the old sweepers just without all the old offside gubbins due to the law changes over the years)
i remember inverting the pyramid years ago and they predicted this would be the next logical formation change (as a consequence of the 1 up top)

I suspect it wont be too long till you see a number of teams playing a second player up top and a no10 type player against the back 3's as a way of isolating defenders more.

 

[VancouverUtdFan]

Copy-cat syndrome.

One team wins a certain way and everyone hops on the bandwagon. Glad that José is remaining true to himself and moving forward with his tactics whilst continuing to improve on them with the new additions. Unlike some of these other teams and managers who aren't committed to their own programs and follow like sheep.

 

[rcoobc]

Wing backs are probably the most import.ant player in modern football. If you have a quick, fit and technical wingback who can attack and defend you'll go far. See Moses, Alonso, Valencia to an extent, Walker etc. Very important players.

That's why I think we need a better left back. Shaw would be ideal if fit but he's out for a while. Should go for Rose.

That's an extremely bold statement (especially now I've bolded it).

I agree that inside forwards tend to produce more goal scoring opportunities than wingers. I agree that inside forwards leave you exposed on either side. But there are other ways to deal with that, rather than using wing backs.. or if you do need to use them, it doesn't make them important (especially when playing three central defenders).

For one, you can flood the midfield, allowing the midfielders to drift wide when needed to cover the full backs. (4-3-3 or 3-4-3 or 4-2-3-1). For another, you can play three at the back providing protection to your wing backs (3-4-3).

The difference between a super-star wing back and an average one, is probably a half-dozen points per season. The difference between a super-star striker and a an average one is probably at least 12 points a season, although could be as high as 20. Probably Goalkeepers come half way in between, but are more important for cup competitions. Other players probably depend heavily on the formation used etc.

 

[Skywarden]

It's absolutely nothing newly started and goes way back. Conte used four at the back during his time at Bari and Atalanta, changed system to three at the back at Juve. Mostly because what he had available, i.e adaptation. Van Gaal adapted to the players available too during the WC and most managers who goes down this path do so because of practicalities rather than ideologies.