New York Times stands by 'racist tweets' reporter

[Halftrack]

Aren't you a precious lot.

As I said, of course it's unfair to write off all white men as bullshit, based on the actions of a few. But given the trend we've seen in recent years, I'm willing to forgive a woman of colour for making that statement. And I jokingly said that I agree with the sentiment that white men are bullshit, because I didn't expect a bunch of snowflakes to take it literally.

I don't think it's a particularly productive message to send out, but I also don't think she was actually being serious.

And what does the rest of the world have to do with it? Other places being more shit doesn't mean shit doesn't happen in our neck of the woods. So you can't complain about things being shit here, because those same things are more shit elsewhere?

 

[Fully Fledged]

As a group, us white men are pretty bullshit?

You're wrong, I happen to love myself. A lot.

But seriously, I have no problem with a woman of colour making a general statement that white men are bullshit, especially not in the US, a country run by a bunch of bullshit white men. You have to actually want to be offended by that statement to be offended by it.

Correct. There are a group of white men who run many of the countries in the Western World but there are also hundreds of millions of white men around the Western World who live on or below the poverty line who have no power over anybody in the world. Hell they have no power over their own lives.

Any form of generalisation is wrong. To judge anybody because the colour of their skin or their gender is wrong.

 

[Raoul]

The problem for the NY Times is nothing she writes will be taken seriously off the back of her angry identity politics tweets, at which point what is the point of retaining her on the editorial staff.

 

[Fully Fledged]

The problem for the NY Times is nothing she writes will be taken seriously off the back of her angry identity politics tweets, at which point what is the point of retaining her on the editorial staff.

I totally agree with you.

 

[Redlambs]

To judge anybody because the colour of their skin or their gender is wrong.

Correct.

Depressing how many people are casually doing just that though.

 

[Fully Fledged]

Correct.

Depressing how many people are casually doing just that though.

I know.

 

[villain]

This I fully agree with you on. I'm not sure it's the dictionary definition that is at fault though, more their education. I'm not sure what you want it changed to either, do you have an example?

For what it’s worth I’m not blaming the dictionary. Ultimately all the dictionary is, is a book of words which are written in based on popularity - it’s not law. It should form basic understanding of something if you don’t know anything about it, but it shouldn’t be the only scholarly reference used to understand something.
I’m just saying that something like racism, sexism or whatever isn’t exclusive to what the dictionary says it is.

The basic definition of racism is:

prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

How does that support your position that hurt feelings are the only and inevitable result of the definition of racism?

Because it basically minimises racism to only individual biases and actions against other individuals.
It doesn’t explain the systemic or institutional racism. Plus racism doesn’t just rely on the belief that your race is superior, a lot of times it’s due to ignorance or not liking someone of another race.

 

[Raoul]

For what it’s worth I’m not blaming the dictionary. Ultimately all the dictionary is, is a book of words which are written in based on popularity - it’s not law. It should form basic understanding of something if you don’t know anything about it, but it shouldn’t be the only scholarly reference used to understand something.
I’m just saying that something like racism, sexism or whatever isn’t exclusive to what the dictionary says it is.



Because it basically minimises racism to only individual biases and actions against other individuals.
It doesn’t explain the systemic or institutional racism. Plus racism doesn’t just rely on the belief that your race is superior, a lot of times it’s due to ignorance or not liking someone of another race.

The 'prejudice' bit in the definition covers that.

 

[Archie Leach]

For what it’s worth I’m not blaming the dictionary. Ultimately all the dictionary is, is a book of words which are written in based on popularity - it’s not law. It should form basic understanding of something if you don’t know anything about it, but it shouldn’t be the only scholarly reference used to understand something.
I’m just saying that something like racism, sexism or whatever isn’t exclusive to what the dictionary says it is.



Because it basically minimises racism to only individual biases and actions against other individuals.
It doesn’t explain the systemic or institutional racism. Plus racism doesn’t just rely on the belief that your race is superior, a lot of times it’s due to ignorance or not liking someone of another race.

It does not say or imply that. And by the definition, racism does rely on on the belief your race is superior. How you got there is neither here nor there, in regards to the definition.

 

[villain]

The 'prejudice' bit in the definition covers that.

So what’s the difference between racism, prejudice, racial prejudice or race based discrimination?
And yet none of them describe systemic or institutional racism either.

It does not say or imply that.

How does it not?
“Based on the belief that ones race is superior” is that not an individual belief?
And again, it doesn’t extend to systemic or institutional racism.

 

[VorZakone]

Aren't you a precious lot.

As I said, of course it's unfair to write off all white men as bullshit, based on the actions of a few. But given the trend we've seen in recent years, I'm willing to forgive a woman of colour for making that statement. And I jokingly said that I agree with the sentiment that white men are bullshit, because I didn't expect a bunch of snowflakes to take it literally.

I don't think it's a particularly productive message to send out, but I also don't think she was actually being serious.

And what does the rest of the world have to do with it? Other places being more shit doesn't mean shit doesn't happen in our neck of the woods. So you can't complain about things being shit here, because those same things are more shit elsewhere?

You give the impression as if only white men are sexist, xenophobic and racist in Western countries.

 

[Eboue]

sunburn jokes arent real racism. goddamn. racism requires a power imbalance to truly mean anything and its very difficult for a white person in america to be in a situation with a power imbalance like that

 

[Ødegaard]

And what do they have in common? Whiteness. So yeah, you'll have to forgive me for not condemning someone on the receiving end of that kind of shit for making a general statement about us as a group.

Correlation does not imply causation.

 

[Archie Leach]

Sorry @villain , I'm editing my posts and you're responding to the unedited versions.

 

[Eboue]

The problem for the NY Times is nothing she writes will be taken seriously off the back of her angry identity politics tweets, at which point what is the point of retaining her on the editorial staff.

no one takes david brooks seriously and hes still there

 

[Archie Leach]

sunburn jokes arent real racism. goddamn. racism requires a power imbalance to truly mean anything and its very difficult for a white person in america to be in a situation with a power imbalance like that

Can't this be true and Sarah being a dickhead also be true?

 

[Raoul]

So what’s the difference between racism, prejudice, racial prejudice or race based discrimination?

The word prejudice as a subcomponent of a definition of racism is more than sufficient to address each of the above terms.

And yet none of them describe systemic or institutional racism either.

Possibly because its an amorphous concept that isn't broadly accepted as real among large swaths of society.

 

[Eboue]

Can't this be true and Sarah being a dickhead also be true?

yeah sure. i dont really know anything about her and dont care much either way. but "extremely offensive" and stuff like that? come on yall

 

[VP]

Imagine if she'd said, "all men are terrible". Would she be considered sexist? Surely not, right? I'd say, this is pretty analogous.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Sure minorities can be racist. But is that comparable to the majority being racist against minorities? No. Also when a member of a minority receives years of racist abuse and responds in kind, is that comparable to a white reporter posting racist slurs against blacks? No, I’d say not.

Racism against minorities can (and often has) led to workplace discrimination, frequent public verbal abuse, discrimination in the justice system and violence, including murder. Sorry if I can’t get excited about a white person getting their feelings hurt.

Yeah, pretty much this. Every time this debate comes up and a load of white people demand to be victims of racism they can never come up with any tangible examples of racism actually impacting on their life, other than getting hurt feelings from stuff they read online. Cry me a river, basically.

 

[villain]

Sorry @villain , I'm editing my posts and you're responding to the unedited versions.

Ultimately you can’t say ‘how you got there is neither here nor there’ sorry but you can’t. How you got there is built on a system of racial bias.
You can be the most well-meaning white person without a racist bone in your body, but ultimately that doesn’t mean anything because the system has been designed to favour white people over POC when it comes to things like jobs, policing, education, upbringing etc.

The word prejudice as a subcomponent of a definition of racism is more than sufficient to address each of the above terms.



Possibly because its an amorphous concept that isn't broadly accepted as a real among large swaths of society.

Whether it isn’t accepted by society isn’t the point, it still exists - right?
Which is what I said about the dictionary - it’s reactionary and the words and meanings inside it are included when it’s commonplace amongst the populace.
So in a society which is built on racial bias, how likely is that, that same society will recognise the systemic and institutional biases?
And just because the society doesn’t recognise it, doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist. And just because it’s not in the dictionary doesn’t mean it’s not true.

 

[VorZakone]

Yeah, pretty much this. Every time this debate comes up and a load of white people demand to be victims of racism they can never come up with any tangible examples of racism actually impacting on their life, other than getting hurt feelings from stuff they read online. Cry me a river, basically.

Do you have to be impacted by racism in order to justify hurt feelings?

 

[VP]

Can't this be true and Sarah being a dickhead also be true?

Reading her tweets, I'd say that's probably the best description.

 

[Fully Fledged]

sunburn jokes arent real racism. goddamn. racism requires a power imbalance to truly mean anything and its very difficult for a white person in america to be in a situation with a power imbalance like that

How does she not have power? She currently holds an editorial position in one of the most Iconic newspapers in the world. She can mould opinion for the next 50 years.

 

[Archie Leach]

Ultimately you can’t say ‘how you got there is neither here nor there’ sorry but you can’t. How you got there is built on a system of racial bias.
You can be the most well-meaning white person without a racist bone in your body, but ultimately that doesn’t mean anything because the system has been designed to favour white people over POC when it comes to things like jobs, policing, education, upbringing etc.
.

I don't mean to argue that systemic racism isn't the problem or that anti-white racism is in anyway significant. I just think the definition of racism is what it is, and Sarah's tweets aren't a great crime, but kind of lame and basic at worst, and definitely racist in a benign way. I don't think she should be fired for it and I don't want to play into the insidious alt-right conspiracy.

Also as this is our first interaction, I just want to say you're a good egg, and an important voice on the site, who I always enjoy reading your posts.

 

[Halftrack]

You give the impression as if only white men are sexist, xenophobic and racist in Western countries.

That wasn't my intention.

Correlation does not imply causation.

Of course not. I'm just saying that I can understand why someone would make that statement.

yeah sure. i dont really know anything about her and dont care much either way. but "extremely offensive" and stuff like that? come on yall

Her jokes about cultural appropriation were spot on, and I found them hilarious.

 

[Raoul]

Whether it isn’t accepted by society isn’t the point, it still exists - right?
Which is what I said about the dictionary - it’s reactionary and the words and meanings inside it are included when it’s commonplace amongst the populace.
So in a society which is built on racial bias, how likely is that, that same society will recognise the systemic and institutional biases?
And just because the society doesn’t recognise it, doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist. And just because it’s not in the dictionary doesn’t mean it’s not true.

I see your point, but at the end of the day its the dictionary definition that most people look to - not the Stokely Carmichael inspired 2nd definition that emerged in the 60s, which is not broadly accepted.

 

[Eboue]

How does she not have power? She currently holds an editorial position in one of the most Iconic newspapers in the world. She can mould opinion for the next 50 years.

she has some limited power but white person in america arent truly subject to racism in the way that other peoples in america are because there are practically no situations they could find themselves in where they didnt have the most power

 

[villain]

I don't mean to argue that systemic racism isn't the problem or that anti-white racism is in anyway significant. I just think the definition of racism is what it is, and Sarah's tweets aren't a great crime, but kind of lame and basic at worst, and definitely racist in a benign way. I don't think she should be fired for it and I don't want to play into the insidious alt-right conspiracy.

Also as this is our first interaction, I just want to say you're a good egg, and an important voice on the site, who I always enjoy reading your posts.

Absolutely, her tweets are racist and I don’t really blame any body who was offended by what she said.
I don’t want it to come across as though I’m defending her - I’m not. I actually think she should be fired, but I can understand why NYT didn’t fire her.

I just think society would benefit if we didn’t always rely on the dictionary as the gatekeeper for racism - in a lot of ways it minimises the experience and opinions of POC, who are 9/10 the victims of racism.
There’s an endless amount of information available at our fingertips, and relying on 1 sentence in 1 book is just very narrow minded.

Thanks! I was called loathsome last night so it’s good to know it’s not all bad on here

 

[villain]

I see your point, but at the end of the day its the dictionary definition that most people look to - not the Stokely Carmichael inspired 2nd definition that emerged in the 60s, which is not broadly accepted.

I understand it’s what most people do out of habit, but it’s also narrow minded and shows a lack of actually wanting to understand something especially when google is free and it takes 2 seconds.
Plus I think this type of thing should be taught early on during education, in school you’re taught the importance of context, perspective and interpretation. Yet when it comes to racism we just use a dictionary and assume it covers everything.

 

[VorZakone]

she has some limited power but white person in america arent truly subject to racism in the way that other peoples in america are because there are practically no situations they could find themselves in where they didnt have the most power

Do you have to be impacted by racism to have your hurt feelings justified?

 

[Fully Fledged]

she has some limited power but white person in america arent truly subject to racism in the way that other peoples in america are because there are practically no situations they could find themselves in where they didnt have the most power

So a white man sleeping in a doorway because he has lost everything somehow has power? Being white doesn't always equate to power. I know that most of the positions of power are filled by white men but that doesn't mean that every white man has power.

 

[Eboue]

Do you have to be impacted by racism to have your hurt feelings justified?

...

no

 

[Eboue]

So a white man sleeping in a doorway because he has lost everything somehow has power? Being white doesn't always equate to power. I know that most of the positions of power are filled by white men but that doesn't mean that every white man has power.

right but there are very few situations in which a white man will be discriminated against for his race in this country

 

[Fully Fledged]

right but there are very few situations in which a white man will be discriminated against for his race in this country

The notion that you can't be racist to white people discriminates against them.

 

[Archie Leach]

So a white man sleeping in a doorway because he has lost everything somehow has power? Being white doesn't always equate to power. I know that most of the positions of power are filled by white men but that doesn't mean that every white man has power.

How much has his whiteness influenced his disempowerment though? You can be low on the rung without your race being a factor.

 

[Mrs Smoker]

Tweet

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Bitch is racist, no doubt about that.

 

[Raoul]

How much has his whiteness influenced his disempowerment though? You can be low on the rung without your race being a factor.

Same concept can be applied to anyone of any race imo. People do have a degree of agency that can change their predicament substantially as long as they believe their own actions can make a difference.

 

[Raoul]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Bitch is racist, no doubt about that.

The Times are going to lament sticking up for her yesterday as more and more of these past tweets emerge.

 

[Eboue]

The notion that you can't be racist to white people discriminates against them.

cool