New York Times stands by 'racist tweets' reporter

Fully Fledged

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How much has his whiteness influenced his disempowerment though? You can be low on the rung without your race being a factor.
I totally agree. I'm not saying that poor white people are poor because of their race. I'm just saying that they exist and that they are powerless.

Do I think that whites have it easier than black people do both in the UK and America. Yes but it doesn't mean that they all have power. The reason that Trump is where he is is because a large portion of poor white people are hurt at how little power they have. The President they have actually got though just proves how little power they actually have.
 

Archie Leach

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Same concept can be applied to anyone of any race imo. People do have a degree of agency that can change their predicament substantially as long as they believe their own actions can make a difference.
Can it though? Blackness can be empirically linked to disempowerment. Can whiteness? Both have their roots in capitalist exploitation, but blackness is a multiplier in a way whiteness isn't.
 

VeevaVee

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Do you have to be impacted by racism in order to justify hurt feelings?
Earlier I said there's a difference between institutional racism and being racist, and this is it imo. It's ridiculous that people can make excuses up about someone acting like this because a load of people high up in government, or in the past, or both, have been racist.

Why we can't just agree it's wrong and she's a cnut, I don't know. It's plainly obvious.
 

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The power dynamic aspect of racism is an interesting one. And one I hadn't considered before. Bringing this back to a topic we probably all remember, it's what made Suarez's interaction with Evra very racist. Black and indigenous people throughout most of South America face heavy discrimination and social disadvantage. That's potentially the case for the area in France where Evra grew up too (I don't know) which is why he responded so negatively and Suarez was rightly villified for his language. He was using terminology and the power dynamic that comes with such terminology to undermine Evra, and many consider that racism.

Anyway. I don't know if this woman is racist or not. It's probably ill-advised to fight fire with fire when that fire is any form of discrimination or prejudice, so her tweets were an objectively a bad idea and reflect poorly on her.

She's now a public figure so I don't imagine her life will be fun over the next few months.

Twitter really is shit. Think 10 times before posting anything. Unless you're Donald Trump. Then you can post whatever you like with no repercussions.
 

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Earlier I said there's a difference between institutional racism and being racist, and this is it imo. It's ridiculous that people can make excuses up about someone acting like this because a load of people high up in government, or in the past, or both, have been racist.

Why we can't just agree it's wrong and she's a cnut, I don't know. It's plainly obvious.
I agree with this also.
 

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The power dynamic aspect of racism is an interesting one. And one I hadn't considered before. Bringing this back to a topic we probably all remember, it's what made Suarez's interaction with Evra very racist. Black and indigenous people throughout most of South America face heavy discrimination and social disadvantage. That's potentially the case for the area in France where Evra grew up too (I don't know) which is why he responded so negatively and Suarez was rightly villified for his language. He was using terminology and the power dynamic that comes with such terminology to undermine Evra, and many consider that racism.

Anyway. I don't know if this woman is racist or not. It's probably ill-advised to fight fire with fire when that fire is any form of discrimination or prejudice, so her tweets were an objectively a bad idea and reflect poorly on her.

She's now a public figure so I don't imagine her life will be fun over the next few months.

Twitter really is shit. Think 10 times before posting anything. Unless you're Donald Trump. Then you can post whatever you like with no repercussions.
I hope this isn't true. I would really like all his post to come back and bite him when he is no longer president.
 

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Can it though? Blackness can be empirically linked to disempowerment. Can whiteness? Both have their roots in capitalist exploitation, but blackness is a multiplier in a way whiteness isn't.
This epic piece from Coleman Hughes touches on similar themes. Well worth a read.

 

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This epic piece from Coleman Hughes touches on similar themes. Well worth a read.

Yeah, I first saw signs of this after Hurricane Caroline hit New Orleans. To see the poverty that some of the people lived in was heartbreaking and it was hard to believe that conditions like that could exist in the richest country in the world.
 

VorZakone

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This epic piece from Coleman Hughes touches on similar themes. Well worth a read.

That article makes good points but in between those points it also tends to oversimplify matters.
 

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I'm not saying that there isn't a power imbalance just that I really hate any type of discrimination.
This is the thing I don't get. As soon as it's mentioned, you get people suggesting whites are claiming racism (i.e playing the race card), but this woman is clearly being racist. Sure I'm not personally offended by it, that would be the daft bit imo and that's where it has a deeper meaning to others. But how is me going to Japan for example, and being picked on there not the same thing? In which case does it only apply when you are a minority in that situation? The lines are further blurred online, because this could easily involve black and other asians too, in fact it likely does.

And what do you do at school level? Two separate incidents, a black boy makes a racist remark to a white boy, and in the other it's reversed. Are these two situations supposed to be handled any differently in some eyes here?

I get how people can justify the view that some racism is far worse than others, but IMO you still need to define ALL racism as wrong or the message to the future generations is completely wrong and we'll get nowhere.


For what it’s worth I’m not blaming the dictionary. Ultimately all the dictionary is, is a book of words which are written in based on popularity - it’s not law. It should form basic understanding of something if you don’t know anything about it, but it shouldn’t be the only scholarly reference used to understand something.
I’m just saying that something like racism, sexism or whatever isn’t exclusive to what the dictionary says it is.
Agreed. I think it's basic statement is entirely correct, but it should not be the exclusive one. There are many deeper levels.

But I just don't get how people can try to say that the basic statement of discrimination against people of a different skin colour isn't at least racist on the most basic level. What it means to that person deeper than that, well that's the thing where a simple word cannot possibly explain.
 

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Was wondering the same thing. Surely they can find someone else without her baggage.
They either underestimated or ignored her baggage when they were evaluating bringing her on. They claimed they reviewed her past social media posts, which if true shows a poor sense of awareness on their part where the decision makers were probably in political sync with her past tweets, and as such, didn't think it was a big deal.
 

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Agreed. I think it's basic statement is entirely correct, but it should not be the exclusive one. There are many deeper levels.

But I just don't get how people can try to say that the basic statement of discrimination against people of a different skin colour isn't at least racist on the most basic level. What it means to that person deeper than that, well that's the thing where a simple word cannot possibly explain.
I can see both sides of the coin I guess.
On one hand yes what she’s doing is offensive towards white people.
On the other hand, is she doing so because she believes Koreans (she’s Korean right?) are superior to white people? Or is it in response to offence that some white people placed on her - therefore by definition is it more prejudicial/ discriminatory?

I don’t think she thinks Koreans are better than white people, but I sense some resentment and animosity which is why I said that I think her tweets are racist but I’m not white so it’s not my place to say what it is or what it isn’t, that’s just how I approached the situation.

In the grand scheme of things her opinion doesn’t matter at all.
 

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I can see both sides of the coin I guess.
On one hand yes what she’s doing is offensive towards white people.
On the other hand, is she doing so because she believes Koreans (she’s Korean right?) are superior to white people? Or is it in response to offence that some white people placed on her - therefore by definition is it more prejudicial/ discriminatory?

I don’t think she thinks Koreans are better than white people, but I sense some resentment and animosity which is why I said that I think her tweets are racist but I’m not white so it’s not my place to say what it is or what it isn’t, that’s just how I approached the situation.

In the grand scheme of things her opinion doesn’t matter at all.
She's not just hitting out at the guys having a pop at her, and btw I wonder if they were all white, her words are specifically about white people. It's skin colour and therefore surely on a basic level racist. Unless the dictionary definition is to be completely thrown out of the window full stop (which would be a ludicrous thing to want as it opens up a whole new can of worms).

This is the problem with the fight against it, people keep continuing to blur the lines for one reason or another. It's no good if you want to eradicate it. A lot of those tweets specifically mention skin colour, if some want to still say it's not racism then that's up to them I guess, but for me you have to draw a line if true progress is to be made.

Like I say, for future generations how do we get them to grow up understanding? By education and I mean true education starting with proper history lessons. But also you can't have one rule for one skin colour and another for all others, it's just not going to work.

All IMO of course.
 

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The U.S. Census Bureau must adhere to the 1997 Office of Management and Budget (OMB) standards on race and ethnicity which guide the Census Bureau in classifying written responses to the race question:

White – A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or North Africa.
https://www.census.gov/topics/population/race/about.html
 

oneniltothearsenal

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It is among us common folk. Try having a normative chat about race with someone and tell them white is not a race.
I have done that for decades. I even steadfastly refused to put my race into the 5 categories that a CHP tried to coerce me into doing back in the 1990s when I was getting a traffic ticket. I explained to him that my "race" was not on his outdated multi-choice quiz which was based on psuedo-science. I said he could either choose to mark "Other" and write in"Mutt" or just leave it blank. He certainly wasn't pleased, had to radio his superior but in the end I never had to put an incorrect 'race' on my ticket.

Most people (at least thoughtful ones I usually engage in discussions), recognize that "white" is neither a race nor an ethnicity. I never once had a problem discussing it. But then again, I wasn't talking to the Tea Party/Trump types. Also this underlying logic is flawed: just because some people might be ignorant doesn't change reality. There was a time when you could say "try having a normative chat about the world not being flat..." Its a invalid argument.

Already explained this one as well.

"One reason we keep using the term “Caucasian” is that the U.S. legal system made use of Blumenbach’s taxonomy. As early as 1790 the first naturalization law was passed, preventing foreigners who were not white from becoming citizens. But according to Mukhopadhyay, Blumenbach’s category of “Caucasian” posed a problem because his classification of white also included some North Africans, Armenians, Persians, Arabs, and North Indians. The definition of Caucasian had to be reinvented to focus the ideological category of whiteness on northern and western Europe. The term, even though its exact definition changed over time, was used to shape legal policy and the nature of our society.

A second reason the term has had staying power is that, as new immigrants began to stream into the country in the 20th century, political leaders and scientists supported a new racial science called eugenics that built on 19th-century notions of race. Eugenicists divided Caucasians into four ranked subraces: Nordic, Alpine, Mediterranean, and Jew (Semitic). I’m sure you will not be surprised to learn that the Nordics were ranked highest intellectually and morally. These rankings were used by our government to design and execute discriminatory immigration laws that preserved the political dominance of Nordics, who were largely Protestant Christians.

Today, the word “Caucasian” is still used in many official government documents, and it continues to carry a kind of scientific weight. For example, it is found in social science and medical research, and is used by some colleges and universities in their data collection and distribution of student, staff, and faculty statistics. In Mukhopadhyay’s research, she sampled government websites and official documents and was surprised to learn how many government offices, including the U.S. Census Bureau, still use the word.

So “Caucasian” became entrenched in our legal, governmental, scientific, and social lives. And although the U.S. government reluctantly denounced or at least played down racial science after the atrocities of Adolf Hitler’s regime were fully exposed at the end of WWII, the term has not been discarded.

What can we do to change it? We need to acknowledge that the word “Caucasian” is still around and that its continued use is problematic. We should use terms that are more accurate, such as “European-American.” Doing so would at least be consistent with the use of descriptive terms like “African-American,” “Mexican-American,” and others that signify both a geographical and an American ancestry."

https://www.sapiens.org/column/race/caucasian-terminology-origin/
 

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Surely as soon as you put the word white/black/yellow or any other sort of term relating to said colour automatically makes you a racist?

If you want to stop racism, stop ALL racism no matter how 'small', there's shouldn't be a degree of racism, same as there isn't a degree of sexism, you're either a racist ass or you're not.

Black, White, Hispanic or Asian surely everyone can agree that racism shouldn't have a place in our world, seems to me some folk want to keep racism as ''their thing" that ultimately doesn't let this vicious cycle to end.

This reporter is clearly racist, her tweets span over two years (some are in a conversation with another Asian lady) so her excuse shouldn't hold any weight.
 

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Surely as soon as you put the word white/black/yellow or any other sort of term relating to said colour automatically makes you a racist?

If you want to stop racism, stop ALL racism no matter how 'small', there's shouldn't be a degree of racism, same as there isn't a degree of sexism, you're either a racist ass or you're not.

Black, White, Hispanic or Asian surely everyone can agree that racism shouldn't have a place in our world, seems to me some folk want to keep racism as ''their thing" that ultimately doesn't let this vicious cycle to end.

This reporter is clearly racist, her tweets span over two years (some are in a conversation with another Asian lady) so her excuse shouldn't hold any weight.
I totally agree.
 

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Surely as soon as you put the word white/black/yellow or any other sort of term relating to said colour automatically makes you a racist?

If you want to stop racism, stop ALL racism no matter how 'small', there's shouldn't be a degree of racism, same as there isn't a degree of sexism, you're either a racist ass or you're not.

Black, White, Hispanic or Asian surely everyone can agree that racism shouldn't have a place in our world, seems to me some folk want to keep racism as ''their thing" that ultimately doesn't let this vicious cycle to end.

This reporter is clearly racist, her tweets span over two years (some are in a conversation with another Asian lady) so her excuse shouldn't hold any weight.
Well said. As the Sullivan piece correctly points out, the Times aren't likely to take action because they happen to agree with her.

That’s why Jeong hasn’t apologized to the white people she denigrated or conceded that her tweets were racist. Nor has she taken responsibility for them. Her statement actually blames her ugly tweets on trolls whose online harassment of her prompted her to respond in turn. She was merely “counter-trolling.” She says her tweets, which were not responses to any individual, were also “not aimed at a general audience,” and now understands that these tweets were “hurtful” and won’t do them again. The New York Times also buys this argument: “her journalism and the fact that she is a young Asian woman have made her a subject of frequent online harassment. For a period of time, she responded to that harassment by imitating the rhetoric of her harassers.”exclaiming: “feck white women lol.”
 

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“A little more disturbing is what you might call ‘eliminationist’ rhetoric—language that wishes an entire race could be wiped off the face of the earth: ‘#cancelwhitepeople.’”
:lol: eliminationist

this is truly embarrassing stuff. its funny that journalism is a dying profession and people are constantly being laid off yet this clown makes hundreds of thousands of dollars to misrepresent sarcasm as genocide
 

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andrew sullivan is a white supremacist. its hard to think of many people less qualified to write that column
But the idea that if you want people to accept you as equal you need to accept them as equal still stands. The idea that I can be racist to you but you can't be racist to me because history is bollocks. #Treat all people as equal.
 

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So have they decided to cut ties with her yet?
Not sure they will since it would be perceived as capitulating to an online twitter mob. They may take the approach of riding out the storm and then quietly integrating her but I doubt anyone will take her views seriously since anything she writes will bear the stench of her reputation.
 

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I have done that for decades. I even steadfastly refused to put my race into the 5 categories that a CHP tried to coerce me into doing back in the 1990s when I was getting a traffic ticket. I explained to him that my "race" was not on his outdated multi-choice quiz which was based on psuedo-science. I said he could either choose to mark "Other" and write in"Mutt" or just leave it blank. He certainly wasn't pleased, had to radio his superior but in the end I never had to put an incorrect 'race' on my ticket.

Most people (at least thoughtful ones I usually engage in discussions), recognize that "white" is neither a race nor an ethnicity. I never once had a problem discussing it. But then again, I wasn't talking to the Tea Party/Trump types. Also this underlying logic is flawed: just because some people might be ignorant doesn't change reality. There was a time when you could say "try having a normative chat about the world not being flat..." Its a invalid argument.
I don't think most people concern themselves with the semantics of it. A good number of people know Caucasians in this context doesn't refer to Azeris, Armenians, or Georgians - its a broad umbrella term used in the states to describe white folk.
 

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I don't think most people concern themselves with the semantics of it. A good number of people know Caucasians in this context doesn't refer to Azeris, Armenians, or Georgians - its a broad umbrella term used in the states to describe white folk.
Its actually etymology ;) but your point doesn't change the fact its outdated and inaccurate terminology that will eventually be retired.
 

Eboue

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But the idea that if you want people to accept you as equal you need to accept them as equal still stands. The idea that I can be racist to you but you can't be racist to me because history is bollocks. #Treat all people as equal.
what do we really mean about racism? i mean, at least in america, white people are generally not denied jobs for their race. there arent significant groups of people who would prefer their child not marry a white person. white people dont get disproportionately longer prison sentences. they werent redlined. they werent denied the right to vote. they werent enslaved. they werent lynched. they werent the victims of rosewood or tulsa. they werent denied entrance to universities. their families werent split up in auction houses. laws werent passed to exclude them from federal jobs. they werent banned from playing in the major leagues. their churches werent bombed. and so on.

so what racism are we talking about? personal dislike of another race? or system injustice over centuries. for racism to really mean anything it has to be backed by power. whites have almost all of the power in this country. the government is run by a white supremacist. so while i dont know anything about her other than what has been quoted in this thread, nothing has been offensive in any real way. whereas the racism andrew sullivan espouses is backed by institutional power and a history of it in action killing and raping and stealing from the people he denigrates. he can frankly feck off
 

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To the point. Unlike the author though, I don't think she has a place on that board .
Nor do I - at least not by way of Twitter pressure. The times is probably populated with enough likeminded people to where they actually do agree with much of her tweet history.