You really think Martial's situation is the same as Muller?
Neymar
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
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The ground work is done now. As I said earlier in this thread, if one of these world class players become available for whatever reason, guess which club is going to be front of the queue.
Ah ok, so we wait until we hear players want to leave and then we approach them, or even better, we take in clubs rejects. That's the United way.
Well done on listing players that actually ended up moving here. No flaw in that logic at all...
You really think United can't attract or afford the best is the world?
Ofcourse he's going to say that now. He didn't want to pay up, he's known for that.
No, no two transfers are the same. However, if we were told by both clubs that the player wasn't for sale and we took your approach then we would have ended up with none of them.
Not at this moment in time, these players prefer to play for Madrid, Barca and Bayern, the proof is in the pudding.
Point is they moved because they were attainable at the time.Well done on listing players that actually ended up moving here. No flaw in that logic at all...
We clearly made astronomical offers for Muller but they didn't budge, why continue to pursue at the expense of not signing someone else?
He was one of many who was told Martial wasn't available, with your approach we would still be playing Rooney up top, that's a scary thought.
All top players are 'unavailable' until you offer enough money or the player pushes through a move. There's no way of knowing until you offer/enquire about a player.
Every player who moves is attainable FFS
When was the last time Barca or Madrid sold their best players at their peak?Every player who moves is attainable FFS
What's with the defeatist attitude from the onset? Should the club just give up on trying to sign the best footballers around? That doesn't sound like a clever plan to be honest. If you want to compete with the elite year in and year out, you can't always operate with a deficit in terms of personnel quality, especially when the quality of domestic footballers has declined in recent years compared to the 1990s and mid 2000s. We can't just perpetually consider ourselves inferior to Real Madrid and Barcelona (that is something which is ingrained in the minds of a lot of our support base). It's a good thing that Woodward is atleast exploring the possibility of signing a Neymar or Müller, that doesn't make him a clown or a source of embarrassment to the club; it shows intent and ambition, and sooner or later, a player of that caliber is bound to join the club, especially considering how United's finances will surpass even Real Madrid in the near future. Once you set the precedent, more will follow their lead, and then you can build a plan around signing footballers of that ilk on a consistent basis, which is what Madrid and Barcelona have done through the years with all their imported greats. That's almost exactly how Santiago Bernabeu started the tradition of signing the best players in the world for Real Madrid. Was he an embarrassment for having the audacity to do that at a time when Athletic Club and Atletico were both superior to Real? Should he have given up on the Di Stefano transfer because of the loan farce with Millonarios and Barcelona? Different eras sure, but the concept in kind of comparable.
Someone like a Neymar would represent a huge coup for United. The possibility might sound remote right now, but strange things can happen in football. As @carvajal pointed out, he might eventually get tired of playing second fiddle to Messi. As Brazil's best player, and their football ambassador of sorts, he should ideally be the best player at his club too, and that seems unlikely as long as Messi is around. Maybe he'll be lured by the money, who knows. Woodward should do whatever it takes to land players like him, even if he fails a few times, and try to get the ball rolling. Not only is he a brilliant footballer, there are a lot of added benefits to signing Neymar, much moreso than Bale in terms of the core demographic he will cater to. United's record with Brazilians is rather underwhelming right now. Kleberson, Anderson, the twins vs Romario, Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Rivaldo for Barcelona; Kaka, Leonardo, Cafu among others for Milan; and so on for others. If we sign Neymar and he does well, that will open up a million opportunities. Young Brazilian footballers who idolize him right now might want to follow his lead and join United, his team-mates in the national team (Marquinhos and co.) might want to sign for us to play with him, and all of that can lead to a change in mindset.
Saying that we're poor in comparison to where we were before isn't an all encompassing argument either to be fair. When Ronaldinho joined Barcelona they weren't in the best shape either. There were probably half a dozen teams in Europe that were better than them. But along-with Laporta and Rijkaard, they rectified that; and in a couple of years, they could realistically have signed any player they desired. Sure, the city is an added benefit, and they have a long standing tradition; but in terms of competitiveness in the early 2000s, they were comparable to United right now. Also, like United, Bayern Munich had, and probably still has a reputation for dabbling mainly in the domestic market, and weren't the strongest team around in the late 2000s. But Van Gaal, Heyneckes, Guardiola improved things dramatically; to a point that now you could argue they have the ability to sign almost any player they want to. Not that they necessarily will given their modus operandi in the transfer market, but no one would call them or Rummenigge an embarrassment for chasing a Neymar, that's for sure. Things can change very quickly in football, we might be lagging behind the elite pack right now, but it can be a drastically different situation in 2-3 years, especially if we sign the top top players to form a quality nucleus. Which is what Woodward is trying to do, be it for cynical PR reasons, or an actual effort to boost the club's player quality.
Someone like a Neymar would represent a huge coup for United. The possibility might sound remote right now, but strange things can happen in football. As @carvajal pointed out, he might eventually get tired of playing second fiddle to Messi. As Brazil's best player, and their football ambassador of sorts, he should ideally be the best player at his club too, and that seems unlikely as long as Messi is around. Maybe he'll be lured by the money, who knows. Woodward should do whatever it takes to land players like him, even if he fails a few times, and try to get the ball rolling. Not only is he a brilliant footballer, there are a lot of added benefits to signing Neymar, much moreso than Bale in terms of the core demographic he will cater to. United's record with Brazilians is rather underwhelming right now. Kleberson, Anderson, the twins vs Romario, Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Rivaldo for Barcelona; Kaka, Leonardo, Cafu among others for Milan; and so on for others. If we sign Neymar and he does well, that will open up a million opportunities. Young Brazilian footballers who idolize him right now might want to follow his lead and join United, his team-mates in the national team (Marquinhos and co.) might want to sign for us to play with him, and all of that can lead to a change in mindset.
Saying that we're poor in comparison to where we were before isn't an all encompassing argument either to be fair. When Ronaldinho joined Barcelona they weren't in the best shape either. There were probably half a dozen teams in Europe that were better than them. But along-with Laporta and Rijkaard, they rectified that; and in a couple of years, they could realistically have signed any player they desired. Sure, the city is an added benefit, and they have a long standing tradition; but in terms of competitiveness in the early 2000s, they were comparable to United right now. Also, like United, Bayern Munich had, and probably still has a reputation for dabbling mainly in the domestic market, and weren't the strongest team around in the late 2000s. But Van Gaal, Heyneckes, Guardiola improved things dramatically; to a point that now you could argue they have the ability to sign almost any player they want to. Not that they necessarily will given their modus operandi in the transfer market, but no one would call them or Rummenigge an embarrassment for chasing a Neymar, that's for sure. Things can change very quickly in football, we might be lagging behind the elite pack right now, but it can be a drastically different situation in 2-3 years, especially if we sign the top top players to form a quality nucleus. Which is what Woodward is trying to do, be it for cynical PR reasons, or an actual effort to boost the club's player quality.
So what's your suggestion, as soon as a club says that a certain player is not for sale we apologise for bothering them and hang up?
In the last few years Di Maria, Ozil, Sanchez and not at his peak but Barca wanted to keep Pedro.
This is my point they no longer wanted these players and were considered surplus. When Neymar/Bale/Muller get to that stage no problem let's go all out for them, but trying to sign these players when there is no indication they are willing to leave/the club is willing to sell is naive.
Didn't say that, they don't want to sell you move on.
When was the last time that a club of United's size and stature actually tried to do that? What we're trying to do maybe unprecedented, but that shouldn't stop us from trying. In fact, I'd argue that not trying to do so would be utterly ridiculous.
Sorry mate but you are talking absolute crap in here.
With a player like Martial at a club like Monaco you can bully them into selling using our finances and status. Trying to do this to Bayern, Barca or Madrid is futile.
Well, clearly we did move on? If we hadn't, we'd probably not have Martial here right now.
That's exactly what you're saying.
What superstars do we really have in the team, that you could truly call a ''galactico''? Di Maria was one, fair enough and Falcao, who was only an trial on a loan. Bastian could come into that category too but came on the cheap.
Looking at our starting squad, I'd say it's the opposite to what you're saying. Martial, Smalling, Blind, Shaw, Herrera Morgan, Depay ect. are all either rising stars, or players not even in their prime yet.
Why?
See above, you're contradicting yourself.
We can try, but not at the expense where we are missing out on other targets and the squad suffers as a result.
My initial point was to go after players that are attainable, nothings changed.
Not if the player decides he wants to leave, then it's all about the money, it might be hard for you grasp but Barca can't compete with us financially.
No player is attainable until a bid is accepted.
They pay their front 3 an excess of 200k a week and splashed out over 200m on 2 of them, that's competitive enough.
Going for Fabregas and losing out on Thiago comes to mind.
If that's the case Chelsea, City, PSG (sugar daddy clubs) and other elite clubs would be in for these players.
Truth is they are not available so they don't even bother, yet we think they are? does that make any sense at all?
Some good examples here of the point i'm trying to make.
Madrid wanted di maria to leave for James, ozil to leave for bale and sanchez for Saurez. Neither player wanted out of the club, they were sold to make way for new and better (in the pov of the club) players.
These aren't the best example but the question should be changed
"When was the last time Barca or Madrid sold their best players at their peak, even though the club had every intention/desire to keep them" - you'll find then that the list is much smaller.
What the feck.
That wasn't the question. Anyway the Madrid manager at the time wanted to keep Di Maria and Ozil. Sanchez wanted out and Barca wanted to keep Pedro.
When was the last time we did? Ronaldo? And before that?
The point remains, you still have to try, FFS, what's so hard to understand here.
I'm glad we're flexing our financial muscle and trying to sign the best players. Some might not be attainable at a certain point in time, but knowing football, there will be a time where every player is tempted by a move, especially to a club like Manchester United.
This year we went in for Muller and Neymar, but we still ended up investing heavily in the team for those same positions. As long as that is the case, i don't see the problem in trying.
This year we went in for Muller and Neymar, but we still ended up investing heavily in the team for those same positions. As long as that is the case, i don't see the problem in trying.
Couldn't have picked a worse example, given all the circumstances surrounding that one.
This is a slightly simple logic I feel. Squad development is not formulaic, and I personally think it is clear that we have gotten to a point where we are not just trying to fill positions in the squad, but we have almost hit a bit of a ceiling where we now require players of a certain calibre to add to the other good players we have.
What this team needs more than anything now, is a star player, in my opinion. You don't necessarily move forward by then switchinig from Bale to Pedro. You wait for another Bale.
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