NHS winter 'crisis'

redman5

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It's a double-edged sword really. You have an aging population who generally need more health care the older they get. & then you have the younger generations, many who are set to encounter health problems due to obesity & a sedentary lifestyle. It's little wonder the NHS is on it's knees.
 

Nick 0208 Ldn

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The Tories cut income tax, but raised various indirect ones, such as VAT.
I'd pay an extra penny on income tax if that additional money was ring-fenced for the NHS, but it won't be. Plus I'm thankfully at a stage where I can afford it- plenty can't after a decade of stagnant wage growth and spiralling house prices.
But what would people be making this additional contrinution for precisely? If voters want nurses to get a £2,000 pay rise, such should be guaranteed up front. Similarly, we can't re-open closed facilities just because there'll be several billion extra in the coffers. New Labour had larger annual increases to the annual budget yet we still lost thousands of beds across the NHS.

I'm not criticising your willingness to act for the greater good, not at all, however i don't think it's enough to simply ring-fence these funds for general usage.

The public would also need to understand that cash alone won't solve our problems, although that is a harder sell.
 

Silva

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New Labour had larger annual increases to the annual budget yet we still lost thousands of beds across the NHS.
Fewer beds were needed. Labour was investing money in social care and putting money into preventative healthcare. The conservatives have gutted social care and more people need to stay in hospitals for prolonged periods. The current situation the NHS faces has been wholly engineered by Jeremy Hunt, David Cameron and George Osborne.
 

Jippy

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But what would people be making this additional contrinution for precisely? If voters want nurses to get a £2,000 pay rise, such should be guaranteed up front. Similarly, we can't re-open closed facilities just because there'll be several billion extra in the coffers. New Labour had larger annual increases to the annual budget yet we still lost thousands of beds across the NHS.

I'm not criticising your willingness to act for the greater good, not at all, however i don't think it's enough to simply ring-fence these funds for the general budget.

The public would also need to understand that cash alone won't solve our problems, although that is a harder sell.
It probably was a glib, but well-meant statement on my behalf tbf. I know cash alone won't solve the problem, but it should help stem the cuts. Can't remember if you live in my neck of the woods or not out west, but you wonder if cash could say help prevent the downgrading of Charing Cross Hospital, which the government is trying to do, despite staunch local opposition.
It won't alone magic loads of qualified nurses out of thin air, I grant you that, but more incentives for people to stay in the profession and new entrants to take the training, could be something.
 

Jippy

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Fewer beds were needed. Labour was investing money in social care and putting money into preventative healthcare. The conservatives have gutted social care and more people need to stay in hospitals for prolonged periods. The current situation the NHS faces has been wholly engineered by Jeremy Hunt, David Cameron and George Osborne.
Certainly in part, but not wholly. Demographics keep working against us too.
 

Nick 0208 Ldn

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Fewer beds were needed. Labour was investing money in social care and putting money into preventative healthcare. The conservatives have gutted social care and more people need to stay in hospitals for prolonged periods. The current situation the NHS faces has been wholly engineered by Jeremy Hunt, David Cameron and George Osborne.
Fewere A&E units, fewer maternity units, closed convalescent hospitals, but that'ss perfectly justifiable in your book. In their place we have longer journeys for patients and indebted trusts. Between the years of 1997 and 2015 the UK population increased by 7 million, however you advocate a reduction in NHS capacity.


It probably was a glib, but well-meant statement on my behalf tbf. I know cash alone won't solve the problem, but it should help stem the cuts. Can't remember if you live in my neck of the woods or not out west, but you wonder if cash could say help prevent the downgrading of Charing Cross Hospital, which the government is trying to do, despite staunch local opposition.
It won't alone magic loads of qualified nurses out of thin air, I grant you that, but more incentives for people to stay in the profession and new entrants to take the training, could be something.
Agree with you on staff retention, particularly with regard to nursing. The easy option is to increase pay, but there are also schemes like the Freedom Pass which could be extended to certain fields. And no, i'm more north than west: we've already had the cuts, albeit after the customry legal challenge. I can understand your position, which is why i think people need to be told what the taxation would be used for.
 

Silva

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Fewere A&E units, fewer maternity units, closed convalescent hospitals, but that'ss perfectly justifiable in your book.
https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/blog/2015/07/day-case-surgery-good-news-story-nhs
https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/nhs-in-a-nutshell/hospital-beds

I've never justified cuts to the NHS. What the feck are you talking about?

In their place we have longer journeys for patients and indebted trusts

Waiting times went down under Labour.

however you advocate a reduction in NHS capacity.
This is a gross mischaracterisation.
 
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Nick 0208 Ldn

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If you put on your reading glasses on you'd realise we were talking about how conservatives cuts to social care have led to an increased demand for longer hospitalisations. This reversed the trend under Labour.
You quoted a post which made no direct reference to that at all. And while social care is indeed in a state, the two concerns are not mutually exclusive. Furthermore, the closure of both A&E units and closure od day hospitals are a factor in the demands being placed on the service.
 

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You quoted a post which made no direct reference to that at all.
I made a direct reference in the second sentence of my post. The first one wasn't very long either.

And while social care is indeed in a state, the two concerns are not mutually exclusive.
Older people need to stay in hospitals longer because there's nowhere else they can be looked after. Thanks to the conservative party. This was not the case under Labour.

Furthermore, the closure of both A&E units and closure od day hospitals are a factor in the demands being placed on the service.
Also thanks to the conservative party.
 
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Camy89

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Is it really getting worse? Honestly I've been hearing the same thing since I developed the ability to remember hearing things.
Yes, it is. I'd recommend you visit a big A+E dept to fully assess the scale of this shitstorm.

They should also charge £10 for every missed appointment. That would cut down waste a lot.
Fully agree. The onus is on people to take care of their health, and the least they can do is remember their appointments. Going to be late or don't need it? Then tell us.

People forget appointments
Not good enough. If the appointment was forgettable, then you didn't need it in the first place and you're likely taking up a space for someone more needy.

The thing that bubbles my nuts about this year on year is that they act as if winter has caught them by surprise. It happens every year, after Autumn you fools and consistently it gets worse. What do they (government) do? They take to social media to say thanks to all the NHS staff working hard through this tough winter time.

I'm sorry, but f*** right off. I don't need your thanks, the only good thing about winter is that it's raised publicly how much of a shambles the underfunding, understaffing and poor morale have done to the NHS. It's like this all year round people. It doesn't suddenly become a breeze in the springtime which is what they make it out to feel when saying we have to get through the wintertime. Winter is just added pressure on top of an already f****d system.

I see it as a sink. You know those sinks with the little mini-sink beside them? A rinser I think it's called. Imagine the main bit is the A+E and general admissions to hospitals, the rinser is the mental health admissions. Now what the government have done/are doing, is blocking the drains of both these sinks, so they fill up. They've decimated social care and getting people out of hospital is taking longer and longer, leaving people in acute beds that don't need them.

Now whilst the rinser fills up, it'll eventually get to a point where it's pouring into the main sink, adding to the main A+E pressure. All the while the government are throwing money at the sink buying fancier taps, maybe make it out of gold instead and consistently avoid paying a plumber to sort the drain to get things flowing again.

While the sink is getting increasingly full, they pour in some debris into the water which settle around the plug to stop even more water getting out - this represents understaffing. They then shout at the plug telling it it's the plugs fault the sink is f****d.

Throw money at it all you like, but until you get things sorted downstream (and increase mental health beds/staff), you're not going to do anything you complete twats.
 

Nick 0208 Ldn

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I made a direct reference in the second sentence of my post. The first one wasn't very long either.


Older people need to stay in hospitals longer because there's nowhere else they can be looked after. Thanks to the conservative party. This was not the case under Labour.


Also thanks to the conservative party.
If you're not prepared to accept that lessons must be learnt from Labour's decisions and pattern of spending, there's not much of a conversation to be had. I disagree with the present Government's record on both as it happens, however the red rosette's actions seem to be beyond reproach here. The party can't live off Bevan's deeds forever, as much as they might like to.
 
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Silva

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If you're not prepared to accept that lessons must be learnt from Labour's decisions and pattern of spending, there's not much of a conversation to be had. I disagree with the present Government's record on both as it happens, however the red rosette's actions seem to be beyond reproach here. The party can't live off Bevan's deeds forever, as much as they might like to.
If you're going to criticise Labour, choose from the plentiful shitty things they did. Don't list waiting times, which went down under their rule, for example.
 
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Kentonio

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The public would also need to understand that cash alone won't solve our problems, although that is a harder sell.
First of all this is a lie. Seriously, its not even an intelligent lie, its just a stupid lie. With sufficient cash, you could have a hospital and extensive medical staff for every town in the country. You could pay huge wages to encourage people into the medical profession, buy the best equipment and construct custom facilities for everything.

When you actually spend a moment thinking about it, this is obvious.

So why do people keep repeating a very stupid and obvious lie? Simple, because modern conservative parties on both sides of the Atlantic have willingly and knowingly taken up a propaganda technique best described as follows:

"The essential English leadership secret does not depend on particular intelligence. Rather, it depends on a remarkably stupid thick-headedness. The English follow the principle that when one lies, it should be a big lie, and one should stick to it. They keep up their lies, even at the risk of looking ridiculous."

Why lie? Well if people start to believe that cash doesn't solve the NHS's problems, then they're less likely to want to lynch you when you reduce the stream of that cash, right?

So we have had to listen to years of Tory politicians going on TV repeating the same fecking inane and dishonest mantras: 'Cash alone won't solve all the NHS's problems!', 'It's time to have an adult conversation about the NHS!' blah blah blah. All of it to try and soften people's ironcast support of the National Health Service so the Tories can fundamentally change it. Something they are determined to do despite having absolutely no democratic mandate for.
 

Nogbadthebad

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The current crisis is directly caused by cuts.

However, this time, they have approached it through the entirely separate, and local council administered, social care system.

By starving that of cash and closing facilities, they have forced thousands of extra people into the NHS for treatment, that then exacerbates the winter surge in illness causing the crisis.

They can then stand on TV and claim they are putting more money in, while actually deliberately setting out to cause problems that can be excused to justify further privatisation of the service. Hunt even authored a section of a book entirely devoted to privatising the NHS, its called Direct Democracy: An Agenda For A New Model Party.

That 70% of tory supporters who are concerned about the NHS should all take along look in the mirror, because they are contributing to it's demise.
 

Nick 0208 Ldn

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Don't list waiting times, which went down under their rule, for example.
I didn't.


First of all this is a lie. Seriously, its not even an intelligent lie, its just a stupid lie. With sufficient cash, you could have a hospital and extensive medical staff for every town in the country. You could pay huge wages to encourage people into the medical profession, buy the best equipment and construct custom facilities for everything.

When you actually spend a moment thinking about it, this is obvious.

So why do people keep repeating a very stupid and obvious lie? Simple, because modern conservative parties on both sides of the Atlantic have willingly and knowingly taken up a propaganda technique best described as follows:

"The essential English leadership secret does not depend on particular intelligence. Rather, it depends on a remarkably stupid thick-headedness. The English follow the principle that when one lies, it should be a big lie, and one should stick to it. They keep up their lies, even at the risk of looking ridiculous."

Why lie? Well if people start to believe that cash doesn't solve the NHS's problems, then they're less likely to want to lynch you when you reduce the stream of that cash, right?

So we have had to listen to years of Tory politicians going on TV repeating the same fecking inane and dishonest mantras: 'Cash alone won't solve all the NHS's problems!', 'It's time to have an adult conversation about the NHS!' blah blah blah. All of it to try and soften people's ironcast support of the National Health Service so the Tories can fundamentally change it. Something they are determined to do despite having absolutely no democratic mandate for.
So i was talking about personal health, preventive medicine, cleaner air, social care policy e.t.c.

Thanks for such an enlightening and reasonable reply though.
 

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My wife’s auntie fell down some stairs on Tuesday afternoon and broke her tibia. She was in absolute agony and when the emergency services were called they sent two ambulances to take her to the hospital. From the X-Ray the bone was completely severed so an operation was needed. She was due to have this on Tuesday night/Wednesday morning but it kept being postponed due to the theatres being occupied with other more important and emergency ones. It is now Friday night and having seen her earlier I do not understand how hers is not an emergency. She is in a complete state of disarray and keeps throwing up every so often from the pain as the morphine isn’t even touching the sides.

I cannot understand how understaffed and underbudgeted the hospital must be for something that is so critical to be delayed by over three days now. This government is a joke. If anyone who’s ever used the NHS in the past 4+ year voted Tories or votes them in the upcoming election is an absolute disgrace.

@Nick 0208 Ldn should give us an opinion.
 

George Owen

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Mike Schatner

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The big challenge for the NHS, and healthcare systems the world over, are the demands on the system never stops growing. We have advancements in medicine that mean there are more procedures every year, and the population is aging and growing. Its fanciful and misguided to think you can cut health spending without devastating effects. That is especially the case in the NHS where many old inefficient buildings are still part of the infrastructure.
 

George Owen

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Then how exactly are you holding one person accountable for the failures of an entire medical system?
She was held accountable for her own mistakes leading to the death of a kid.

The entire medical system failed too, that's for sure. That doctor had no business working there, but maybe if more doctors stayed in the country instead of flying away, there would have been no need for her to be doing that work that day? She was brave enough to step up, kudos for that, but fell short... should have asked for help instead of being "afraid of what's others doctors might think if asking for help". Just by talking, that kid would be alive today.

So yeah, its a shit excuse from the doctors. Obviously the people in charge of the NHS should be accountable too, but that's not gonna happen anytime soon, so as long as the doctors keep making excuses to bail out, the only real losers and sufferers are the British people that need quality health service.
 

Mike Schatner

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Just had my weekly call with my Parents in the UK. About 3-4 weeks ago my Mum sounded really sick on the phone and I chewed her out for not going to the doctors. She obviously had a server chest infection and needed antibiotics and steroids. Her excuse was the media had been telling people to only go if they were really. She is mid 70s with a history of chest infections so her condition was potentially life threatening. She did go to the doctor a couple of days later and he gave her antibiotics and steroids. She went back for a second lot of steroids.

Today she sounds a lot better but is still not breathing that well. Apparently the doctor wants to send her for a scan however he can't do that on his own. All the doctors in the practice meet once a week and vote on that sort of thing. WTF :rolleyes:
 

Ultimate Grib

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Just had my weekly call with my Parents in the UK. About 3-4 weeks ago my Mum sounded really sick on the phone and I chewed her out for not going to the doctors. She obviously had a server chest infection and needed antibiotics and steroids. Her excuse was the media had been telling people to only go if they were really. She is mid 70s with a history of chest infections so her condition was potentially life threatening. She did go to the doctor a couple of days later and he gave her antibiotics and steroids. She went back for a second lot of steroids.

Today she sounds a lot better but is still not breathing that well. Apparently the doctor wants to send her for a scan however he can't do that on his own. All the doctors in the practice meet once a week and vote on that sort of thing. WTF :rolleyes:
This kind of thing is becoming normal because the service is so starved of funding. My wife developed an extremely bad chesty cough a few weeks ago. She wasn’t calling the GP and was taking over the counter meds. It was getting worse and worse so I forced her to ring the GP and she was told by the receptionist that they were getting a lot of calls about this and there was a nasty virus going around. It could last anything up to 6 weeks and advice was to call the doctor only if it hadn’t gone away by then. I was absolutely livid and called them immediately next day and said that she had been suffering for about 7 weeks now and she needed to see the GP urgently. She found an appointment for that morning and the GP determined she had an infection and gave her 2 weeks worth of antibiotics. She was probably on her tenth day when she called initially, if she had followed their advice and waited another 30 god knows what that infection ould have developed to.

The demand didn’t suddenly get increasingly bigger in the last 5-6 years to breaking point. It’s quite obvious that the service is being starved of the cash it needs. This is 100% the fault of the government and not the people working in it however they too are to blame for going along with it. They need to be banging on doors raising their voice to the ceiling and putting pressure on the government because they have the backing of all the population, regardless of their political alignment.