No.1 for next season - De Gea or Henderson?

crossy1686

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De Gea and we would be mad to let him go. He is better goalkeeper than Henderson and we need to improve the team and GK isnt a position we should be looking to change at the moment
De Gea is the highest paid Spanish player and Goalkeeper in the world and is no where near worth it. Get him gone and reinvest in the squad instead.
 

Samrat Mazumdar

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De Gea anyday, I think a proper kick up the rump side should get his form back, because quality- wise there is a huge gulf between the two. His most obvious weakness which has been exposed for a few seasons now is his 'commanding the box' and protecting set- pieces, one of which can be solved to an extent with more hollering and physical CB's in front of him, not sure if Lindelof can do that. If he improves these two points by even 40- 50%, we can have a settled number one GK for the next 4- 5 years
 

Alemar

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It’s not about Dean being better, it’s about Dean doing at the very least not worse than de Gea while being a) on 3-4 times lower wages and b) much younger.

In this situation, what is the point of sticking with a much more expensive and older option? I’ve always been pro de Gea, but to be frank, David doesn’t perform better than Dean.
 

Alan Partridge

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For me I prefer the type of goalkeeper Henderson is. More proactive in the box, better distribution, more available and willing to receive the ball into feet. I think in an age where playing out from the back this is invaluable. Sure he’s not a shot stopping wonderkid like de Gea, but we may never see someone as good in that regard again anyway. Goalies have to be more than a person standing on their line stopping the ball at the last moment, they need to be part of the team.
 

crossy1686

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For me I prefer the type of goalkeeper Henderson is. More proactive in the box, better distribution, more available and willing to receive the ball into feet. I think in an age where playing out from the back this is invaluable. Sure he’s not a shot stopping wonderkid like de Gea, but we may never see someone as good in that regard again anyway. Goalies have to be more than a person standing on their line stopping the ball at the last moment, they need to be part of the team.
100% this. De Gea's shot stopping wouldn't have to be world class if he caught a fecking cross or came off his line every now and again.
 

Cantonagotmehere

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It’s not about Dean being better, it’s about Dean doing at the very least not worse than de Gea while being a) on 3-4 times lower wages and b) much younger.

In this situation, what is the point of sticking with a much more expensive and older option? I’ve always been pro de Gea, but to be frank, David doesn’t perform better than Dean.
This is where I have ended up as well.
 

Wednesday at Stoke

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Yesterday's first goal is a fine example of how Henderson helps. When the defensive line is high, knowing that the keeper can come off his line to sweep any danger, the team can press high, Maguire's headed clearance started a mini-break and as soon as the ball fell to Bruno, within a pass, there was a clear goal chance for Rashford. You can't do that with de Gea rooted to his line.
 

calodo2003

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There's very little chance of it actually being true.
Is MEN usually incorrect in its exclusive stories? I don’t know, I follow United through it here in the states, but have little idea if their exclusives are wide of the mark more often than not.
 

Chairman Steve

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I'm for pushing Deano as No.1 for now. I'm not some total zealot for him by any means but if I was manager, he'd get a run of being the No.1 next season with DDG going back to Spain.

Goalkeeper is a weird position to judge compared to the outfield positions. The best ones seem to be completely unflappable in the face of howlers and Deano comes across as right cocky little shite (I say that as a compliment).

He needs to phase out the 'palming it into another players feet to score from the rebound' thing he seems susceptible too at the moment. That used to be Joe Harts inherent weakness when he played for City and England.

I do think he's better than Foster, seeing how Sheff Utd have gone to complete shit without him, and Foster's presence at Watford 15 years old didn't really make much of a difference.
 

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Is MEN usually incorrect in its exclusive stories? I don’t know, I follow United through it here in the states, but have little idea if their exclusives are wide of the mark more often than not.
I used to like MEN but their articles got worse and worse over the years as they obviously only wanted hits on their website. I stopped reading them entirely about 5 years ago and don't take anything they say seriously anymore.
 

calodo2003

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I used to like MEN but their articles got worse and worse over the years as they obviously only wanted hits on their website. I stopped reading them entirely about 5 years ago and don't take anything they say seriously anymore.
Fair enough. Who is currently the most dialed into the locker room media-wise in your opinion?
 

sullydnl

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For me I prefer the type of goalkeeper Henderson is. More proactive in the box, better distribution, more available and willing to receive the ball into feet. I think in an age where playing out from the back this is invaluable. Sure he’s not a shot stopping wonderkid like de Gea, but we may never see someone as good in that regard again anyway. Goalies have to be more than a person standing on their line stopping the ball at the last moment, they need to be part of the team.
Thing is, he's not a wonderkid in terms of the bold either. He's not strong on set pieces, he's not a particularly good sweeper, he's not particularly good on the ball. He's only the more "modern" keeper you describe in comparison to De Gea, who is even less so. In general terms though he is still more of an old-school shot-stopper, just a more rounded but less talented version than De Gea.

So if you think the aspects of the game you're describing are important, Henderson isn't who you want in goal either.
 

calodo2003

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Thing is, he's not a wonderkid in terms of the bold either. He's not strong on set pieces, he's not a particularly good sweeper, he's not particularly good on the ball. He's only the more "modern" keeper you describe in comparison to De Gea, who is even less so. In general terms though he is still more of an old-school shot-stopper, just a more rounded but less talented version than De Gea.

So if you think the aspects of the game you're describing are important, Henderson isn't who you want in goal either.
But, he’s far more competent in these arenas than DDG. He’s the best at these out of who we have.
 

The holy trinity 68

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De Gea anyday, I think a proper kick up the rump side should get his form back, because quality- wise there is a huge gulf between the two. His most obvious weakness which has been exposed for a few seasons now is his 'commanding the box' and protecting set- pieces, one of which can be solved to an extent with more hollering and physical CB's in front of him, not sure if Lindelof can do that. If he improves these two points by even 40- 50%, we can have a settled number one GK for the next 4- 5 years
People have being pushing this narrative for 2 years, but Henderson is here now to do just that and DDG has still been pretty mediocre this season. It is wishful thinking for DDG to get back to his best, that is long gone, he is not in his prime anymore.

There is also not a huge gulf between the two.

From the start of last season DDG has played 72 games and has 25 clean sheets.

Henderson has played 60 games and has 26 clean sheets.

Henderson has played 12 games less in the last 2 seasons yet has 2 more clean sheets, 14 of them clean sheets were for Sheffield United as well, a team that had worse players and worse defenders than United last season.

Henderson is better with aerial balls and dealing with crosses, DDG is poor with aerial balls and dealing with crosses, Henderson also has better distribution. DDG is also on nearly double Henderson's wage, which could be freed up and go towards an important outfield player like Haaland, Sancho or a CM etc.
 

sullydnl

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But, he’s far more competent in these arenas than DDG. He’s the best at these out of who we have.
Absolutely. But in many cases it isn't by as a clear a margin as people perceive, at least based on the limited amount of information we have from Henderson's time in the PL so far.

Take the below based on last season, for example. Hardly screams glaring improvement in terms of distribution, even taking the different styles of play of the two teams into account.



Similarly, while Henderson was certainly a better sweeper than De Gea last season, he was still only around average for the league and De Gea cut into a lot of that advantage over the space of one summer's focused training on that aspect of his game.

And while people perceive Henderson as being more dominant aerially, he is still pretty pretty weak on set-pieces.

Ironically the area where Henderson has actually been impressive is the one where he is least likely to get credit in comparison to De Gea, namely shot-stopping. He might not be as naturally talented as De Gea but that's his main strong point when compared to other goalkeepers.

All of which isn't really an argument for opting for De Gea over Henderson but rather for not setting ourselves up for disappointment by imagining that Henderson is something he isn't. Stylistically he's quite similar to De Gea in a lot of ways and if someone really wants that more progressive Ederson/Alison style keeper then neither are the answer.

If he's going to be our #1 next season then we have to look beyond simply comparing him to DDG.
 

Reapersoul20

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It swings both ways. According to someone on here he made 3 "howlers" in the first half yesterday, which is simply a work of fiction.
If you think he was in any way solid yesterday then you're deluded. He is meant to be better than DDG at claiming crosses. He fecked up coming for 2 yesterday.
 

sullydnl

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People have being pushing this narrative for 2 years, but Henderson is here now to do just that and DDG has still been pretty mediocre this season. It is wishful thinking for DDG to get back to his best, that is long gone, he is not in his prime anymore.

There is also not a huge gulf between the two.

From the start of last season DDG has played 72 games and has 25 clean sheets.

Henderson has played 60 games and has 26 clean sheets.

Henderson has played 12 games less in the last 2 seasons yet has 2 more clean sheets, 14 of them clean sheets were for Sheffield United as well, a team that had worse players and worse defenders than United last season.

Henderson is better with aerial balls and dealing with crosses, DDG is poor with aerial balls and dealing with crosses, Henderson also has better distribution. DDG is also on nearly double Henderson's wage, which could be freed up and go towards an important outfield player like Haaland, Sancho or a CM etc.
Whatever about your general point which may well be true, clean sheets are an awful way of judging a goalkeeper's performances.
 

calodo2003

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Absolutely. But in many cases it isn't by as a clear a margin as people perceive, at least based on the limited amount of information we have from Henderson's time in the PL so far.

Take the below based on last season, for example. Hardly screams glaring improvement in terms of distribution, even taking the different styles of play of the two teams into account.



Similarly, while Henderson was certainly a better sweeper than De Gea last season, he was still only around average for the league and De Gea cut into a lot of that advantage over the space of one summer's focused training on that aspect of his game.

And while people perceive Henderson as being more dominant aerially, he is still pretty pretty weak on set-pieces.

Ironically the area where Henderson has actually been impressive is the one where he is least likely to get credit in comparison to De Gea, namely shot-stopping. He might not be as naturally talented as De Gea but that's his main strong point when compared to other goalkeepers.

All of which isn't really an argument for opting for De Gea over Henderson but rather for not setting ourselves up for disappointment by imagining that Henderson is something he isn't. Stylistically he's quite similar to De Gea in a lot of ways and if someone really wants that more progressive Ederson/Alison style keeper then neither are the answer.

If he's going to be our #1 next season then we have to look beyond simply comparing him to DDG.
But, we’re not going to have a credible competitor next season for either of we release the other, we have to compare the two. As much as it pains me to say, I see a more successful path in the coming years with Henderson v DDG, not massively so, but enough. We should sign a competent back up for next season with some of the money we will make from offloading one of these guys, that money should go towards improving other parts of the pitch.
 

Carl

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If you think he was in any way solid yesterday then you're deluded. He is meant to be better than DDG at claiming crosses. He fecked up coming for 2 yesterday.
Happy for you to show me where I said anything even similar to that.
 

The holy trinity 68

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Whatever about your general point which may well be true, clean sheets are an awful way of judging a goalkeeper's performances.
What a ludicrous thing to say. Of course clean sheets are a good way of judging a goalkeepers performance.

The PL GK's that won the golden Glove since 2004 are Cech x4, Reina x3, Van Der Sar x1, De Gea x1, Courtois x1, Ederson x1, Alisson x1.
Granted Joe Hart has 4 and Szczeszny has 1. But they were still very good GK's in their prime.
Basically the best PL GK's since 2004 have all won the Golden Glove for clean sheets at least once.

Clean sheets are a good indicator of who the best GK's are, it is not the only metric but still a good metric to use.

Are goals an awful way of judging a strikers performances?
 

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Those that say they haven't seen him do anything outstanding, are you all expecting a De Gea against Sevilla every game or what? Would be interesting to know.

We are the second best team in the league, and unsuprisingly, we barely concede up to ten shots in most games. In some games, we don't even concede a decent chance to the opposition.

He has played in about 20 games this season, and he has made a few saves I'd consider very good for a goalkeeper. Luton, Brighton, Palace, Milan, West Ham, Brighton. If you look at the last twenty games that each of Allison, Ederson, and Mendy for example has played, I'm convinced that you aren't going to find too many flashy saves either.

Personally, I want to see him make saves that would make everyone go woah every game because that would give him confidence and enhance his reputation, but more often than not, being a good keeper is about making the saves that you are expected to make, and dealing with situations that you are expected to deal with. It evens out over the course of the season.

It is not like he is conceding multiple goals every game, he has one of the best save percentages around. So not sure why he has to be look outstanding on the eye to be considered a good one. He isn't getting the chances to look outstanding because we are a good team, and he is a good goalie. He has demonstrated good handling on crosses so far, good old-fashioned distribution, good timing when sweeping and good organization at the back.

If you have doubts about his ability to fly through the air, then there are plenty of compilations showing him doing just that at his former clubs. Goalkeepers at top clubs don't throw themselves around every game unless there's a problem with their positioning at long shots which seems to be a strength of Henderson's. I'm happy that we are backing him.
 

sullydnl

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What a ludicrous thing to say. Of course clean sheets are a good way of judging a goalkeepers performance.

The PL GK's that won the golden Glove since 2004 are Cech x4, Reina x3, Van Der Sar x1, De Gea x1, Courtois x1, Ederson x1, Alisson x1.
Granted Joe Hart has 4 and Szczeszny has 1. But they were still very good GK's in their prime.
Basically the best PL GK's since 2004 have all won the Golden Glove for clean sheets at least once.

Clean sheets are a good indicator of who the best GK's are, it is not the only metric but still a good metric to use.

Are goals an awful way of judging a strikers performances?
No, they're not. They're tied to too many factors beyond a goalkeeper's control, not least "shots on target faced" with which they're strongly inversely correlated. Same applies to stats like "total saves" and "goals conceded". They might be indicative of the best defensive system as a whole but they're a pretty worthless way of judging an individual's performance within that system or comparing them to players within different systems. Which is why data analysts don't use cleans sheets as a measure of goalkeeper performance and why we end up with stats like post-shot ExG coming into the game instead.

It would be like using how many goals a team scores (or, more accurately, how many games a team scores in) to determine how good a striker is, just because his role in the team is to score goals. It doesn't actually measure what that individual is contributing to that team effort, or give you a way to compare their performance relative to players in other teams that provide their strikers with more/less opportunity to score goals. Oftentimes it may still arrive at the right conclusion but that still doesn't make it a good way of analysing things.
 
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The holy trinity 68

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No, they're not. They're tied to too many factors beyond a goalkeeper's control, not least "shots on target faced" with which they're strongly inversely correlated. Same applies to stats like "total saves" and "goals conceded". They might be indicative of the best defensive system as a whole but they're a pretty worthless way of judging an individual's performance within that system or comparing them to players within different systems. Which is why data analysts don't use cleans sheets as a measure of goalkeeper performance and why we end up with stats like post-shot ExG coming into the game instead.

It would be like using how many goals a team scores (or, more accurately, how many games a team scores in) to determine how good a striker is, just because his role in the team is to score goals. It doesn't actually measure what that individual is contributing to that team effort, or give you a way to compare their performance relative to players in other teams that provide their strikers with more/less opportunity to score goals. Oftentimes it may still arrive at the right conclusion but that still doesn't make it a good way of analysing things.
A goalkeepers main job is not to concede goals, which is what a clean sheet is. Of course there are other metrics, just like for anything there is not only one category for judging performance.
 

calodo2003

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Imagine not considering a clean sheet as an overriding positive for a keeper. Or a goal as an overriding positive for a striker.

Both are literally the most important part of each position’s jobs.
 

sullydnl

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Imagine not considering a clean sheet as an overriding positive for a keeper. Or a goal as an overriding positive for a striker.
Who said it wasn't a positive?

But if you want to judge how well a goalkeeper is performing, it's a pretty useless measure and a poor use of statistics generally. Because you're taking a stat that measures one thing and using it to judge an entirely different thing.

Similarly, we wouldn't judge how good Firmino is at scoring goals based on how many games Liverpool score in. That doesn't mean goals aren't a positive for Firmino but it does make for an awful way of arguing he's a better striker than someone else.
 

calodo2003

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Who said it wasn't a positive?

But if you want to judge how well a goalkeeper is performing, it's a pretty useless measure and a poor use of statistics generally. Because you're taking a stat that measures one thing and using it to judge an entirely different thing.

Similarly, we wouldn't judge how good Firmino is at scoring goals based on how many games Liverpool score in. That doesn't mean goals aren't a positive for Firmino but it does make for an awful way of arguing he's a better striker than someone else.
it makes for a directly comparative way of discussing players of the same position. There’s nothing ‘awful’ about it. Just typing out emotive terms doesn’t strengthen your argument.
 

sullydnl

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it makes for a directly comparative way of discussing players of the same position. There’s nothing ‘awful’ about it. Just typing out emotive terms doesn’t strengthen your argument.
My argument isn't emotive, it's based on how statistics function.

Clean sheets don't measure goalkeeper performance. They measure the number of games in which teams concede, something that is controlled by numerous factors of which goalkeeper performance is far from being the most relevant.

Taking a stat that measures one thing and using it to measure something entirely different is, as a matter of fact, a poor use of statistics. It's not emotive to describe it in those terms, in the same way it's not emotive to describe something as "bad science".

In this case, clean sheets are an awful way of measuring or comparing goalkeeper performance, because they very specifically do not reflect goalkeeper performance. Which is why no data analyst in their right mind uses clean sheet stats in that way.
 
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Rightnr

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Disgraceful the way we've handled this. We gave De Gea the big contract, knowing full-well that Henderson will want to be the number one. In fact, even Henderson is earning too much for a PL goalkeeper, let alone one that is unproven at our level.

Now, we've let Henderson take over the number 1 spot without any discernable improvement in performance against De Gea's (I personally think Henderson is slightly worse, granted he's younger). Not only that but Henderson has not been tested in front of a crowd with all the pressure that entails playing for Manchester United. Not only that but we've used De Gea having a child as an opportunity to (figuratively) stab him in the back and use the weak excuse Deano has been performing well, so he deserves his spot.

Funny though that the above logic does not apply to when our Captain Fantastic has a mare in Greece, has not played well all season or when McTominay has been subpar for games on end. Or it also doesn't apply when Tuanzebe/Bailly/Donny have had fantastic performances but never had a snowball in hell's chance of retaining their starting 11 spot. Just pure hypocrisy.

Personally, this looks like someone at the club feeling the heat and clearly taking the route of briefing against De Gea to turn public perception against him which by the sound of the gullible people in this thread has worked like a dream.

The truth is the Glazers and their puppets have given De Gea too high a wage that we cannot offload, so they want to push him to take a pay cut to save face.
 

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I see hundreds of Manchester United fans on Twitter wish that we lose games because of Henderson now. :lol: What a sad, plastic part of our fanbase, it's disgusting. Another player highly disliked by the plastics because he's from the academy and is English.
 

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Henderson is a Red and a good keeper as well. He is my pick for a guy between the sticks.
 

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Not Henderson. Romero is a better keeper than Henderson, and DeGea is better than them both.
De Gea has been shite since the World Cup in 2018. He had dreadful seasons in 18/19 and 19/20 and this season he's been mediocre at best

De Gea at his peak was better than both yeah, but it's been a long while since his peak.
 

Andycoleno9

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I see hundreds of Manchester United fans on Twitter wish that we lose games because of Henderson now. :lol: What a sad, plastic part of our fanbase, it's disgusting. Another player highly disliked by the plastics because he's from the academy and is English.
You like to push that story, aren't you? Where is logic in that? Fans support English club but dislike English players? How fans don't have a problem with Greenwood, Shaw or Rashford (he is criticized by some fans but only because he is labelled as one of our best players so people want more from him).
 

Rightnr

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I see hundreds of Manchester United fans on Twitter wish that we lose games because of Henderson now. :lol: What a sad, plastic part of our fanbase, it's disgusting. Another player highly disliked by the plastics because he's from the academy and is English.
Uses Twitter as the source to base his opinions on.
Calls people plastics when he's an international fan.
Makes sweeping statements with no real-world evidence.
Joke of a post.
 

golden_blunder

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Disgraceful the way we've handled this. We gave De Gea the big contract, knowing full-well that Henderson will want to be the number one. In fact, even Henderson is earning too much for a PL goalkeeper, let alone one that is unproven at our level.

Now, we've let Henderson take over the number 1 spot without any discernable improvement in performance against De Gea's (I personally think Henderson is slightly worse, granted he's younger). Not only that but Henderson has not been tested in front of a crowd with all the pressure that entails playing for Manchester United. Not only that but we've used De Gea having a child as an opportunity to (figuratively) stab him in the back and use the weak excuse Deano has been performing well, so he deserves his spot.

Funny though that the above logic does not apply to when our Captain Fantastic has a mare in Greece, has not played well all season or when McTominay has been subpar for games on end. Or it also doesn't apply when Tuanzebe/Bailly/Donny have had fantastic performances but never had a snowball in hell's chance of retaining their starting 11 spot. Just pure hypocrisy.

Personally, this looks like someone at the club feeling the heat and clearly taking the route of briefing against De Gea to turn public perception against him which by the sound of the gullible people in this thread has worked like a dream.

The truth is the Glazers and their puppets have given De Gea too high a wage that we cannot offload, so they want to push him to take a pay cut to save face.
We have 2 keepers now of fairly similar standard at this point in time. Stupid contract aside, there comes a time when you have to do what’s right by the club. From DeGea’s POV he would probably jump at a chance home given his personal circumstances