Northern Ireland Thread

SteveJ

all-round nice guy, aka Uncle Joe Kardashian
Scout
Joined
Oct 22, 2010
Messages
62,851
I think that 2cents is making a valid general, not specific, point about human nature.
 

2cents

Historiographer, and obtainer of rare antiquities
Scout
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
12,270
I don't disagree with it at all. It is an interesting point. I am also not intending any disrespect to anyone.
Re: the Stockholm Syndrome analogy - in the colonial context I’d probably associate that more with the Uncle Tom types who fully embrace the colonizer and turn their backs on their own. Definitely an interesting topic, and we could probably find examples in the Irish case, but it wouldn’t be typical at all.
 

arnie_ni

Full Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2014
Messages
6,721
I'm not a hardline Republican, nor am I proud of the IRA.

If/when a border poll comes I will vote for a United Ireland. And I will do so each and every time I'm able to participate in such a referendum in the hope that one succeeds in delivering said result.
Why?
 

Rooney24

Full Member
Joined
Nov 8, 2005
Messages
7,413
I think it's interesting. I have an Irish friend who is a Republican but disassociates with the innocent deaths that the IRA caused, but does hold anger towards the British Army for the role in the Troubles and the British Government for occupation in Ireland.

I could never condone the deaths of innocent people, but then I am fortunate enough to have never lived in a country that has been occupied by a foreign state.
This is also my viewpoint more or less.

Do I agree with the methodology of the IRA killing thousands of people? Of course not.
Do I understand their motivation for it? Absolutely.
Do I agree with their ultimate Goal of a UI? 100%
Are the British army and Govt also at fault? Definitely.

Can I still support an English Football Team given all of the above? Again 100%.
 

Kinsella

Copy & Paste Merchant
Joined
Jan 20, 2012
Messages
1,714
You seem to be proceeding on the premise that a person's nationalism, or unionism for that matter, requires some sort of reasoned foundation.

People don't exist in the abstract, so in essence what you're asking me to explain is the default position. Or, at least, the default position for me. The best answer I can give you is that family, nation, history, heritage, culture and so on brings me to it. The reasoning comes after.
 

Rooney24

Full Member
Joined
Nov 8, 2005
Messages
7,413
You seem to be proceeding on the premise that a person's nationalism, or unionism for that matter, requires some sort of reasoned foundation.

People don't exist in the abstract, so in essence what you're asking me to explain is the default position. Or, at least, the default position for me. The best answer I can give you is that family, nation, history, heritage, culture and so on brings me to it. The reasoning comes after.
So kind of like supporting United? - even though we are shit at the minute we will always support them no matter what?
 

balaks

Full Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2014
Messages
11,915
Location
Northern Ireland
Supports
Tottenham Hotspur
In an attempt to try and not get bogged down in the current conversation - in other news Wright Bus appears to be about to get liquidated. A complete and utter scandal which if reports are to believed is 100% down to the greed of one man. Hundreds of workers made redundant and this guy won't do a deal to save their jobs and the business.
 
Last edited:

sullydnl

Ross Kemp's caf ID
Joined
Sep 13, 2012
Messages
24,038
You seem to be proceeding on the premise that a person's nationalism, or unionism for that matter, requires some sort of reasoned foundation.

People don't exist in the abstract, so in essence what you're asking me to explain is the default position. Or, at least, the default position for me. The best answer I can give you is that family, nation, history, heritage, culture and so on brings me to it. The reasoning comes after.
Genuine question: Would you support a move to a United Ireland regardless of what that new state looks like?

For example, imagine this new prospective UI state is a member of the commonwealth, or the new flag incorporates the union jack (as is the case with several countries), or officially has the Queen as head of state (as is the case with Canada and New Zealand, I believe), or as is the case in Lebanon always has the President be from the minority community, or is federalized so NI has more autonomy, or guarantees Unionists a certain level of permanency in positions of power (guaranteed seats at cabinet, for example), etc. Would you support a United Ireland that is far removed from the fairytale dreams of a true-gael UI?

In other words, at what point would your impulse for a UI come into conflict with the necessity of allowing this new UI state to in effect be partly British?
 

lsd

The Oracle
Joined
Jun 5, 2016
Messages
5,865
While I personally have no love for IRA or Sinn Fein and don't agree with anything they have done since the troubles began .

I would still vote for a United Ireland as I consider myself Irish rather than British and always identify myself as being Irish
 

Eire Red United

New Member
Joined
Aug 30, 2016
Messages
2,723
Location
Ireland
Re: the Stockholm Syndrome analogy - in the colonial context I’d probably associate that more with the Uncle Tom types who fully embrace the colonizer and turn their backs on their own. Definitely an interesting topic, and we could probably find examples in the Irish case, but it wouldn’t be typical at all.
Aye most people like that here are known as West Brits.
 

Eire Red United

New Member
Joined
Aug 30, 2016
Messages
2,723
Location
Ireland
If there was a united ireland vote tomorrow what way would you vote but more importantly, and my actual question, why would you vote that way?

Would you listen to all sides of all arguments (which are hopefully truthful and not lies to get people to vote certain ways) make an informed decision that is best for the people or will you just go **** Britain/ni and vote UI?

Genuinely interested to see what way hardline Republicans and unionists would vote
Think you know what way I would vote. As for why, it’s hard to put into words to be honest, basically my identity, heritage, culture etc etc, plus the absolute disgraceful fact that Ireland was ever split in the first place. But apart from that, it makes sense economically, 2 economies on such a small Island is a daft idea and especially with Brexit looming, more and more people will begin to see that a UI is the way forward.

As for the bolded, we can all agree that ain’t gonna happen.:lol::lol:
 

caid

Full Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2014
Messages
5,331
Location
Dublin
In other words, at what point would your impulse for a UI come into conflict with the necessity of allowing this new UI state to in effect be partly British?
This is a good question and might help explain the supporting an english football team. Were tied too closely to Britain to not be somewhat British already - most of us probably have english cousins, friends, work colleagues etc. So we can hate individual actions of British people without it defining our entire view of the British. We have too much exposure to it for one thing to define our entire view of them. I'm not sure it'd change anything for our state to be partly British.
Tbh the Unionist community would probably have to give up some aspects of their culture being institutionalised by the wider state. It'd probably be more of a 'work away as long as it doesn't effect me' kind of a deal. Things like removing religion from schools I think there'd be strong support for regardless. I'm not sure what other differences there are? I can't imagine the queen or union jack being incorporated tbh, I dont know how much of a deal breaker that'd be?
 

nickm

Full Member
Joined
May 20, 2001
Messages
7,923
I think it's interesting. I have an Irish friend who is a Republican but disassociates with the innocent deaths that the IRA caused, but does hold anger towards the British Army for the role in the Troubles and the British Government for occupation in Ireland.

I could never condone the deaths of innocent people, but then I am fortunate enough to have never lived in a country that has been occupied by a foreign state.
It was perfectly possible to believe in, advocate and fight for a united Ireland during the Troubles without supporting terrorists. The SDLP did so, and honourably.

It was not necessary to kill and in the end, the IRA did not achieve their goal.
 

Wibble

In Gadus Speramus
Staff
Joined
Jun 15, 2000
Messages
76,593
Location
Get vaccinated or kill Penna you selfish bastards
I’m not really sure why comments like this are acceptable.
As someone who had 2 closebfamily members murdered for being catholic publicans or "a military target" as the person who killed them called them, I abhore violence.

But would the GFA have happened without the violence? I don't know. And even if it wouldn't ...... feck knows.

So unless he is advocating for current violent groups like the Real IRA or saying sonething more extreme I'm not sure it is something the modmins want to start infracting for, even if we disagree and in some cases disagree quite a bit.

Edit: all my view - not purporting to soeak for other modmins
 
Last edited:

Eire Red United

New Member
Joined
Aug 30, 2016
Messages
2,723
Location
Ireland
As someone who had 2 closecfamily members murdered for being catholic publicans or "a military target" as the oerson who killed them called them, I abhore violence.

But would the GFA have happened without the violence? I don't know. And even if it wouldn't ...... feck knows.

So unless he is advocating current violent groups like the Real IRA or saying sonething more extreme I'm not sure it is something the modmins want to start infracting for even if we disagree and in some cases disagree quite a bit.

Edit: all my view - not purporting to soeak for other modmins
I’m definitely not doing that. Look fair enough if people disagree it’s obvious plenty will and I completely get why. Plenty of bad things were done by both sides and of course civilians being killed is unacceptable, but I stand by what I said. I wouldn't like to be a Catholic/Nationalist/someone who views themselves as Irish living in the North today if IRA men had not stood and fought.
 

caid

Full Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2014
Messages
5,331
Location
Dublin
I’m definitely not doing that. Look fair enough if people disagree it’s obvious plenty will and I completely get why. Plenty of bad things were done by both sides and of course civilians being killed is unacceptable, but I stand by what I said. I wouldn't like to be a Catholic/Nationalist/someone who views themselves as Irish living in the North today if IRA men had not stood and fought.
Its probably worth adding the various caveats when you say you support the IRA. Some of their actions and intentions are easier to understand than others which you'd have to be a psychopath to support.
 

arnie_ni

Full Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2014
Messages
6,721
You seem to be proceeding on the premise that a person's nationalism, or unionism for that matter, requires some sort of reasoned foundation.

People don't exist in the abstract, so in essence what you're asking me to explain is the default position. Or, at least, the default position for me. The best answer I can give you is that family, nation, history, heritage, culture and so on brings me to it. The reasoning comes after.
Oh no. Im just wondering if a certain point would a unionist or nationalist put aside history, heritage etc and actually vote on modern day current economic, social etc. Factors even if it went against their history/heritage.

Could religion/history/heritage etc ever be left at the door of the voting hall?
 

2cents

Historiographer, and obtainer of rare antiquities
Scout
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
12,270
Oh no. Im just wondering if a certain point would a unionist or nationalist put aside history, heritage etc and actually vote on modern day current economic, social etc. Factors even if it went against their history/heritage.

Could religion/history/heritage etc ever be left at the door of the voting hall?
I’m generally skeptical of nationalism, feel no particular urge or pressure for a United Ireland, have no desire to take on the task of incorporating a load of angry Unionists into our society and political system, and understand all the economic arguments against taking the six counties.

But put the question in front of me in a referendum, and there’s a 99% chance I’ll vote for a United Ireland (I might mark the wrong box by accident). I just wouldn’t be able to turn down the opportunity to change history, or correct history as some would see it. It’s not rational, for all the reasons I’ve given, but we’re a strange species.
 

arnie_ni

Full Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2014
Messages
6,721
I’m generally skeptical of nationalism, feel no particular urge or pressure for a United Ireland, have no desire to take on the task of incorporating a load of angry Unionists into our society and political system, and understand all the economic arguments against taking the six counties.

But put the question in front of me in a referendum, and there’s a 99% chance I’ll vote for a United Ireland (I might mark the wrong box by accident). I just wouldn’t be able to turn down the opportunity to change history, or correct history as some would see it. It’s not rational, for all the reasons I’ve given, but we’re a strange species.
Thats what im trying to get at.

Basically it if could come down to a clear right or wrong decision based on current economic, social and other factors, could the griup (unionists/nationalists) that comes out on the wrong side of that actually make the correct and informed decision or will "history" get in the way.

But i guess id be optimistic to think it would.
 

balaks

Full Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2014
Messages
11,915
Location
Northern Ireland
Supports
Tottenham Hotspur
I’m definitely not doing that. Look fair enough if people disagree it’s obvious plenty will and I completely get why. Plenty of bad things were done by both sides and of course civilians being killed is unacceptable, but I stand by what I said. I wouldn't like to be a Catholic/Nationalist/someone who views themselves as Irish living in the North today if IRA men had not stood and fought.
What did the IRA actually achieve? I'd suggest that the world has changed dramatically since 1969 and the chances are that the equality in our society now would have come with or without the IRA as it simply would not be tolerated today. They didn't achieve a united Ireland either. What was all the killing for?

It was all a horrific waste of life and for what?

There is a very good chance that things would be much as they are now if the IRA or any other groups involved in killing hadn't bothered their arses. So many families destroyed, so many people killing themselves to this day as an indirect result of what was an utterly pointless conflict.
 

utdalltheway

Sexy Beast
Joined
Aug 20, 2001
Messages
18,398
Location
SoCal, USA
Some good discussion here. Haven’t been following all of it but here goes...

A United Ireland would have to have some rights guaranteed (or at least allowed for) for the unionists. They’re a big part of the north so have to be included, whether that’s by setting a aside a certain number of seats in the Dail (they’d get them anyway in the normal voting process) but I wouldn’t be giving them, or any other group, veto powers, etc where they could cock block the rest of the country at every turn.

Look, there are plenty of prods in the republic and tbf they’ve had reason to be irked when state rule was the same as Catholic Church rule but that’s mostly gone now. They’re well assimilated, and so could the unionists, in time.
I’d be against union jacks or having the queen as head like in commonwealth countries but if that’s what it takes to placate the unionists it may be workable. It’s not like it’d make much difference to ordinary peoples lives.


There’d need to be some enigmatic leader (on either side) that could persuade the unionists that a United Ireland is not a thing to be feared.
Not sure that person is in that position at the moment though.
 
Last edited:

Raulduke

Full Member
Joined
Jul 27, 2009
Messages
2,389
Nothing like lobbing this proverbial hand grenade in among the Brexit mess.

 

sullydnl

Ross Kemp's caf ID
Joined
Sep 13, 2012
Messages
24,038
Christ. Had no clue this was going on.

Why would they even bring that case?
Apparently her husband (who is a US citizen) applied for an EU residence card but his application was rejected because she is not considered to be an EEA national. You can't be an EEA national if you hold British citizenship and another citizenship.

De Souza's position was that she identifies only as Irish and should therefore qualify.

According to the court the GFA is binding in national law but not neccesarily UK domestic law (i.e. a treaty with a foreign state can't change UK domestic law without recourse to parliament). The court also found that if the GFA intended people to be able to reject British/Irish citizenship then it would have been provided for in the treaty. Also, if it was found that the UK can't confer British citizenship upon birth to someone born in NI then logically neither can the ROI, which would leave the people born in NI stateless.
 

PhilipB

got third place in a Juan Mata lookalike contest
Joined
Jul 30, 2009
Messages
17,903
Location
Last week, I either ran over a sheep or ran over a
It's a weird one, and definitely something else that was never really considered. I only have an Irish passport so if the UK leaves with no deal at the end of October, my identification is now a European passport...so if I want to access certain services (benefits, registering at a new doctor etc) how will that work? I have to declare I'm British? Unlike the Irish born in Dublin, for example, they can apply to the EU settlement scheme and their rights are protected but if you're born in the North then you're excluded from that. There are so many issues at play here, not going to be fun watching it all unfold.
 

esmufc07

Cried while watching Titanic
Scout
Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Messages
42,776
It's a weird one, and definitely something else that was never really considered. I only have an Irish passport so if the UK leaves with no deal at the end of October, my identification is now a European passport...so if I want to access certain services (benefits, registering at a new doctor etc) how will that work? I have to declare I'm British? Unlike the Irish born in Dublin, for example, they can apply to the EU settlement scheme and their rights are protected but if you're born in the North then you're excluded from that. There are so many issues at play here, not going to be fun watching it all unfold.
bloody hell its philipb3467322456
 

Ramshock

CAF Pilib De Brún Translator
Joined
Nov 20, 2007
Messages
41,139
Location
Swimming against a tide of idiots and spoofers
Apparently her husband (who is a US citizen) applied for an EU residence card but his application was rejected because she is not considered to be an EEA national. You can't be an EEA national if you hold British citizenship and another citizenship.

De Souza's position was that she identifies only as Irish and should therefore qualify.

According to the court the GFA is binding in national law but not neccesarily UK domestic law (i.e. a treaty with a foreign state can't change UK domestic law without recourse to parliament). The court also found that if the GFA intended people to be able to reject British/Irish citizenship then it would have been provided for in the treaty. Also, if it was found that the UK can't confer British citizenship upon birth to someone born in NI then logically neither can the ROI, which would leave the people born in NI stateless.
The only way to remedy all of this and make brexit moot for Ireland is a unification referendum,
 

arnie_ni

Full Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2014
Messages
6,721
Bout ye, Ramshock?

Feck, that presents its own massive headache. I'm not sure which way is the best, or rather, the least worst.
I work with a woman with a young family that lives just over the border and she says itd be stupid from a healthcare and education pov to pass a UI vote.

I do know benefits are greater in the main in the republic though.

We would need the politicians to be honest and open about every positive and negative, but i doubt itd happen.
 

Rooney24

Full Member
Joined
Nov 8, 2005
Messages
7,413
I work with a woman with a young family that lives just over the border and she says itd be stupid from a healthcare and education pov to pass a UI vote.

I do know benefits are greater in the main in the republic though.

We would need the politicians to be honest and open about every positive and negative, but i doubt itd happen.
HealthCare seems to obviously be a big discussion point when it comes to a UI. With most unionists pointing out that the NHS is a free System (its not actually free you pay for it in your tax and NI contributions).

Anyway recently my mother got admitted to Hospital in Belfast. She spent 24 Hours in the same cubicle in A&E before anyone actually gave her any attention and she got moved onto the ward. Its absolutely atrocious. Then there are the stories you hear of People waiting for weeks to get a Doctors Appointment and so on. So whats the point in this free Health System if its completely shit and is the system in the ROI really worse (genuine Question as I really have no experience of the Health care System in the South)?

Id rather pay and get something good than get something for free which is crap.
 

golden_blunder

Site admin. Manchester United fan
Staff
Joined
Jun 1, 2000
Messages
100,032
Location
Dublin, Ireland
HealthCare seems to obviously be a big discussion point when it comes to a UI. With most unionists pointing out that the NHS is a free System (its not actually free you pay for it in your tax and NI contributions).

Anyway recently my mother got admitted to Hospital in Belfast. She spent 24 Hours in the same cubicle in A&E before anyone actually gave her any attention and she got moved onto the ward. Its absolutely atrocious. Then there are the stories you hear of People waiting for weeks to get a Doctors Appointment and so on. So whats the point in this free Health System if its completely shit and is the system in the ROI really worse (genuine Question as I really have no experience of the Health care System in the South)?

Id rather pay and get something good than get something for free which is crap.
You obviously haven’t been following the bed shortage crisis in the south. People have been sitting on trolleys in corridors for weeks.
I’ve been to A&E down here too often for heart related stuff and to be in a cubicle for 24 hours is small fry

Let me tell you something else, once you start paying €50 every time you even have 5 mins with the GP you’ll be begging for the NHS and it’s free treatment and prescriptions
 

Massive Spanner

Thinks Geoff Shreeves has one
Joined
Jul 2, 2014
Messages
17,399
Location
Tool shed
You obviously haven’t been following the bed shortage crisis in the south. People have been sitting on trolleys in corridors for weeks.
I’ve been to A&E down here too often for heart related stuff and to be in a cubicle for 24 hours is small fry

Let me tell you something else, once you start paying €50 every time you even have 5 mins with the GP you’ll be begging for the NHS and it’s free treatment and prescriptions
Genuinely annoys me when people complain about the NHS. Those feckers* don't realize how good they have it compared to us. The HSE must the most useless, shoddy, bloated healthcare system in Europe. €14bn a year for pure shite.

*although, to be fair, I do have plenty of NI friends who say the main reason they'd be against a united Ireland would be losing the NHS
 

golden_blunder

Site admin. Manchester United fan
Staff
Joined
Jun 1, 2000
Messages
100,032
Location
Dublin, Ireland
Genuinely annoys me when people complain about the NHS. Those feckers* don't realize how good they have it compared to us. The HSE must the most useless, shoddy, bloated healthcare system in Europe. €14bn a year for pure shite.

*although, to be fair, I do have plenty of NI friends who say the main reason they'd be against a united Ireland would be losing the NHS
When I first moved down here for years I’d still go back up for NHs treatment