Northern Ireland Thread

Massive Spanner

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When I first moved down here for years I’d still go back up for NHs treatment
What I will say is that treatment in Dublin is amazing if you have good private healthcare. Hospitals like the SSC and Mater Private are awesome, I just wish we could sort the HSC out and give everyone that sort of service.
 

balaks

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HealthCare seems to obviously be a big discussion point when it comes to a UI. With most unionists pointing out that the NHS is a free System (its not actually free you pay for it in your tax and NI contributions).

Anyway recently my mother got admitted to Hospital in Belfast. She spent 24 Hours in the same cubicle in A&E before anyone actually gave her any attention and she got moved onto the ward. Its absolutely atrocious. Then there are the stories you hear of People waiting for weeks to get a Doctors Appointment and so on. So whats the point in this free Health System if its completely shit and is the system in the ROI really worse (genuine Question as I really have no experience of the Health care System in the South)?

Id rather pay and get something good than get something for free which is crap.
NHS is amazing - you have no clue what it is like elsewhere. Ok so you may have a wait a bit longer than you would like but it's an incredible system that is free for everybody.
 

golden_blunder

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What I will say is that treatment in Dublin is amazing if you have good private healthcare. Hospitals like the SSC and Mater Private are awesome, I just wish we could sort the HSC out and give everyone that sort of service.
Yeah. If I didn’t have VHI I’d probably be dead now. I presented to blanch hospital with tight chests and extreme shortness of breath. The registrar told me that my aortic valve had narrowed to 0.4 (should be at least 1+). He later tried to backtrack when the consultant discharged me. I collapsed at home that evening and went back in. I was told 6 month waiting list to get valve replacement on public list. Only when they found out that I had vhi did they really get serious. Was sent for a cardiac mri out in the state of the art clinic in blackrock which showed 4 arteries fecked as well. Then I got rushed through the system. But only because of vhi

Even though I got sepsis in the Mater which is another story, the facility and most of the staff are amazing. Amazingly clean too (compared to Connolly hospital at least)
 

Rooney24

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NHS is amazing - you have no clue what it is like elsewhere. Ok so you may have a wait a bit longer than you would like but it's an incredible system that is free for everybody.
The staff are amazing. The system I am afraid is not. I live abroad so I assure you I do know what it is like elsewhere and I have never had to wait for weeks for a doctors appointment. The idea that it is free makes it great is a nonsense in all honesty. And as I orignally noted - its not free anyway.
 

LilyWhiteSpur

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Does no one else have Benenden, massive difference for me and cover my family as well, its not BUPA but costs me hardly anything a month, definitely worth looking into especially if your in the NICS.
 

Massive Spanner

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The staff are amazing. The system I am afraid is not. I live abroad so I assure you I do know what it is like elsewhere and I have never had to wait for weeks for a doctors appointment. The idea that it is free makes it great is a nonsense in all honesty. And as I orignally noted - its not free anyway.
You're so lucky and you don't even know it.
 

LilyWhiteSpur

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The only way to remedy all of this and make brexit moot for Ireland is a unification referendum,
Any referendum for a UI without people knowing exactly what said UI looks like is absolutely ridiculous, it would be Brixit all over again. There needs to be long deep discussion about jobs, healthcare, schooling and benefits before anyone even mentions a border poll, what will the transition period look like, what roll will England/Dublin play. If Boris was still in charge he would probably say you voted for it, you can pay for it, basically what Europe has done with him. Leo quite rightly has shelved any talk of a border poll.

Also is there still a lot of southerners who would like out of the EU? I am just off the phone too one :lol:.
 

Rooney24

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You're so lucky and you don't even know it.
I dont live in the UK anymore. So I dont use the NHS. But I am well aware of it and seen it in action and can form an opinion and a comparison on it based on other Systems that I have seen. Maybe the reality is you are unlucky and you dont know it? Just a thought.

Anyway I didnt want to derail the thread to a Health System comparison but was originally trying to ascertain from other members if the Health Systems are so vastly different that it would be a deal breaker for some in a UI vote. It will clearly be a big topic if that day comes.
 

LilyWhiteSpur

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I dont live in the UK anymore. So I dont use the NHS. But I am well aware of it and seen it in action and can form an opinion and a comparison on it based on other Systems that I have seen. Maybe the reality is you are unlucky and you dont know it? Just a thought.

Anyway I didnt want to derail the thread to a Health System comparison but was originally trying to ascertain from other members if the Health Systems are so vastly different that it would be a deal breaker for some in a UI vote. It will clearly be a big topic if that day comes.
I don't anything would be a deal breaker, but the discussion has to be had there should be a working group looking into this so at least we will be prepared and have a plan in place ready to go, the health service is a small part or it there are an endless amount of things that need discussed.
 

Massive Spanner

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Yikes. I wonder if that would mean we would have to pay RTE and the BBC in a UI if we wanted to watch both (have no interest in watching RTE)? I hate my life.
No, BBC is free to air in Ireland mate with any tv package like Sky or Virgin. We pretty much have all the UK channels here.
 

arnie_ni

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Another question.. a lot it people in ni work for the UK government, unionists and nationalists alike, would the just be out of jobs?

How would mortgages work? Would a southern bank have to buy them of a uk bank? What about my fixed interest rate, surely it can't change etc.

From the outside looking in, id imagine itd take years and years from the vote to actually be put in place. There's so many moving parts
 

arnie_ni

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You obviously haven’t been following the bed shortage crisis in the south. People have been sitting on trolleys in corridors for weeks.
I’ve been to A&E down here too often for heart related stuff and to be in a cubicle for 24 hours is small fry

Let me tell you something else, once you start paying €50 every time you even have 5 mins with the GP you’ll be begging for the NHS and it’s free treatment and prescriptions
This is what she said, upfront fee before you see anyone.

Her kid was in hospital with what they suspected as blood cancer or something. He had multiple blood tests, mris, scans, overnight stays.

Shes shitting herself for the final bill by all accounts but is just glad it turned out to he nothing serious.
 

Massive Spanner

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Another question.. a lot it people in ni work for the UK government, unionists and nationalists alike, would the just be out of jobs?

How would mortgages work? Would a southern bank have to buy them of a uk bank? What about my fixed interest rate, surely it can't change etc.

From the outside looking in, id imagine itd take years and years from the vote to actually be put in place. There's so many moving parts
Pretty much any scenario involving a United Ireland would involve the UK continuing to support the North for well over a decade at a minimum.
 

Rooney24

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Pretty much any scenario involving a United Ireland would involve the UK continuing to support the North for well over a decade at a minimum.
Indeed. The full transition period would probably be about 50 years, similar to the HK and China Situation in terms of time.
 

Ramshock

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Any referendum for a UI without people knowing exactly what said UI looks like is absolutely ridiculous, it would be Brixit all over again. There needs to be long deep discussion about jobs, healthcare, schooling and benefits before anyone even mentions a border poll, what will the transition period look like, what roll will England/Dublin play. If Boris was still in charge he would probably say you voted for it, you can pay for it, basically what Europe has done with him. Leo quite rightly has shelved any talk of a border poll.

Also is there still a lot of southerners who would like out of the EU? I am just off the phone too one :lol:.
Aye mate you tell yourself that.

Of course there would have to be a long discussion about a UI referendum. If you are happy for your welfare being at the hands of a nation that has many more priorities then good for you. I however am not and think we are better off alone or as a part of UI.,
 

Rooney24

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Any referendum for a UI without people knowing exactly what said UI looks like is absolutely ridiculous, it would be Brixit all over again. There needs to be long deep discussion about jobs, healthcare, schooling and benefits before anyone even mentions a border poll, what will the transition period look like, what roll will England/Dublin play. If Boris was still in charge he would probably say you voted for it, you can pay for it, basically what Europe has done with him. Leo quite rightly has shelved any talk of a border poll.

Also is there still a lot of southerners who would like out of the EU? I am just off the phone too one :lol:.
No. https://www.europeanmovement.ie/programmes/ireland-and-the-eu-poll/

The last poll showed 93% in favour of remaining in the EU.
 

LilyWhiteSpur

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Aye mate you tell yourself that.

Of course there would have to be a long discussion about a UI referendum. If you are happy for your welfare being at the hands of a nation that has many more priorities then good for you. I however am not and think we are better off alone or as a part of UI.,
Keep telling myself what?

Well of course were going disagree with what each other thinks due to us clearly coming from different backgrounds and different ideas of what we want. I would just like to know what I am voting for before I vote for it, surely any sensible person would ask for that? ITs not like a referendum hasn't been a fecking Horlicks lately has it?
 

acnumber9

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Keep telling myself what?

Well of course were going disagree with what each other thinks due to us clearly coming from different backgrounds and different ideas of what we want. I would just like to know what I am voting for before I vote for it, surely any sensible person would ask for that? ITs not like a referendum hasn't been a fecking Horlicks lately has it?
He won’t give you any answers because he doesn’t have any. It wouldn’t matter to him if people were worse off in a United Ireland.
 

PhilipB

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https://irishlegal.com/article/uppe...rn-ireland-are-automatically-british-citizens

The Upper Tribunal (Immigration and Asylum Chamber) has said that the Good Friday Agreement does not override UK nationality law conferring British citizenship on people born in Northern Ireland.

Allowing the appeal brought by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, the Tribunal said that the birthright to be “Irish or British, or both” contained in the Good Friday Agreement, “whilst binding in international law, does not thereby make it binding under the domestic law of the United Kingdom”.

The right to be Irish or British, or both

The Belfast Agreement 1998 (also known as the Good Friday Agreement) is comprised of the multi-party agreement between Northern Ireland political parties, and the British-Irish Agreement which is an international agreement between the government of the UK and the government of Ireland.

Article 1(vi) of the British-Irish Agreement states that the two governments “recognise the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they may so choose, and accordingly confirm that their right to hold both British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both Governments and would not be affected by any future change in the status of Northern Ireland”.

Provisions of the GFA were given domestic UK legislative effect in the Northern Ireland Act 1998.

Application for residence card

In 2015, Jake Parker DeSouza applied for a residence card as the spouse of an EEA national, Emma DeSouza.

Mrs DeSouza was born in Northern Ireland in 1987. At the time of Mrs DeSouza’s birth, section 1(1) of the British Nationality Act 1981 provided that a person born in the UK after commencement shall be a British citizen if at the time of the birth his father or mother is a British citizen.

However, as per her birthright under the GFA, Mrs DeSouza identifies as an Irish citizen.

The Secretary of State for the Home Department refused Mr DeSouza’s application, deciding that Mrs DeSouza did not fall within the definition of “EEA national” as a “national of an EEA State who is not also a British citizen”.

Challenging that decision, Mr DeSouza argued that, as a result of Mrs DeSouza’s self-identification as being only Irish, she is not “also a British citizen”, and therefore he should satisfy the definition of EEA national.

Mr DeSouza’s position is that the Northern Ireland Act 1998 is a “constitutional” statute that overrides the words enacted by Parliament in section 1 of the British Nationality Act 1981.

The First-tier Tribunal found in favour of Mr DeSouza; however, the Secretary of State appealed to the Upper Tribunal.

The Upper Tribunal (Immigration and Asylum Chamber)

In the Upper Tribunal, Mr Justice Peter Lane, president of the Upper Tribunal Immigration and Asylum Chamber, and Judge Jeremy Rintoul set aside the decision of the First-tier Tribunal, finding that it contained an error on a point of law.

Firstly, the Tribunal said that the birthright contained in Article 1(vi) of the British-Irish Agreement “…whilst binding in international law, does not thereby make it binding under the domestic law of the United Kingdom”.

Considering JH Rayner (Mincing Lane) Ltd v Department of Trade and Industry [1990] 2 AC 418, and R (Miller) v Secretary of State [2018] AC 61 [2017] UKSC 5, the Tribunal said that it would “infringe Parliamentary sovereignty if, by entering into a treaty with a foreign state, the executive branch could thereby change the domestic law of the United Kingdom, without recourse to Parliament”. And further, that there was nothing in the Northern Ireland Act 1998, or anywhere else in the UK statute book, amounting to domestic legislation giving effect to Article 1(vi) of the British-Irish Agreement.

The Tribunal disagreed with the suggestion that there was no need for the Northern Ireland Act 1998 to amend Section 1 of the British Nationality Act 1981 (as this was capable of being interpreted consistently with the GFA). The Tribunal said that reading self-identification into the section, and making citizenship by birth in the UK dependent on consent, raised “a host of difficult issues” including the question of when and how a person should be expected to give such consent – and that “a person’s nationality cannot depend in law on an undisclosed state of mind, which could change from time to time, depending on how he or she felt”.

Considering the “problems inherent in a system of nationality based on consent”, the Tribunal said that the omission of self-identification from the Northern Ireland Act 1998 “was entirely deliberate”. The Tribunal added that it was “inconceivable” that the GFA and the Northern Ireland Act 1998 did not include “a person’s ability to reject his or her Irish or British citizenship” if that was what was intended.

Furthermore, if GFA needed to be construed as preventing the UK from conferring British citizenship on a person born in NI, “the inescapable logic is that Ireland cannot confer Irish citizenship on such a person at that point either” – resulting in statelessness and in breach of international obligations.

Considering the principle of interpreting domestic statutory law to be compatible with the UK’s international treaty obligations, the Tribunal said it was “important to appreciate the limits of this principle” – in that it should not be “regarded as a back-door way of circumventing the fundamental duality principle…whereby international treaties do not operate domestically, save to the extent that Parliament has ordained that they should”.

The Tribunal added that, the fact that the Northern Ireland Act 1998 gave effect to aspects of the GFA – and that Robinson v Secretary of State for Northern Ireland and Others [2002] UKHL 32 shows the Northern Ireland Act 1998 is to be regarded as “constitutional” in nature – “does not give us licence to read into the 1998 Act provisions which Parliament simply did not include on a subject (nationality) with which it does not deal”.

The Tribunal also rejected Mr DeSouza’s reliance on Thoburn v Sunderland City Council and Others [2002] 3 WLR 247.

Article 8 ECHR

It was also argued that the operation of Section 1(1) of the British Nationality Act 1981 violated Mrs DeSouza’s rights under Article 8 of the ECHR, and that section 3 of the Human Rights Act 1998 required Section 1(1) to be read considering the right to be Irish or British, or both.

The Tribunal said that, assuming “Mrs DeSouza’s right to self-identification is an aspect of her private life, protected by Article 8”, the system enshrined in the British Nationality Act 1981 represented “a proportionate way of achieving the legitimate public end, not only of avoiding statelessness but also of maintaining a clear and coherent system of nationality law”.

The Tribunal concluded that, since Section 1(1) of the British Nationality Act 1981 did not “disproportionately interfere” with Mrs DeSouza’s Article 8 rights, it was not possible to invoke the interpretative principles contained in section 3 of the Human Rights Act 1998 in construing Section 1(1).
 

LilyWhiteSpur

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He doesn't mean you personally. He means Irish people watching the Brexit shitstorm.
Ha, not you. I meant that watching the UK rip itself into pieces over Brexit makes staying in EU seem all the more attractive.
Yeah apologies, I think if Brexit had been discussed before the actual referendum and people knew what a post Brexit UK would look like, borders, customs zones, the splitting up of the Union I think the result could have been very different.
 

Raulduke

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Keep telling myself what?

Well of course were going disagree with what each other thinks due to us clearly coming from different backgrounds and different ideas of what we want. I would just like to know what I am voting for before I vote for it, surely any sensible person would ask for that? ITs not like a referendum hasn't been a fecking Horlicks lately has it?
Quite an interesting discussion related to this on the latest David McWilliams podcast actually. The Irish tend to do referenda much more sensibly than recent examples in the UK. The same-sex marriage and abortion referenda for example began with a citizen assembly were the issues were discussed and thought out thoroughly before actually taking it to the people. Now obviously a unity referendum would be even more highly charged and contentious in the north but it would have to begin with something like a citizens assembly were the shape of what a united Ireland would look like would have to be determined and particularly what provision would have to be made for the unionist culture/tradition in a new Ireland. A certain proportion of nationalists would vote for a united Ireland in almost any circumstances but if nationalists are serious about actually achieving one then attempting to answer the sort of questions you're posing will be essential.
 

LilyWhiteSpur

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Quite an interesting discussion related to this on the latest David McWilliams podcast actually. The Irish tend to do referenda much more sensibly than recent examples in the UK. The same-sex marriage and abortion referenda for example began with a citizen assembly were the issues were discussed and thought out thoroughly before actually taking it to the people. Now obviously a unity referendum would be even more highly charged and contentious in the north but it would have to begin with something like a citizens assembly were the shape of what a united Ireland would look like would have to be determined and particularly what provision would have to be made for the unionist culture/tradition in a new Ireland. A certain proportion of nationalists would vote for a united Ireland in almost any circumstances but if nationalists are serious about actually achieving one then attempting to answer the sort of questions you're posing will be essential.
I think it really has to start now as you really are talking about a massive piece of work incorporating input from 3 governments and 2 populations, there is nothing wrong with being prepared and giving people time to have a say and know what a possible UI looks like. I will have a look at the podcast thanks.