Nostalgia Draft - QF: antohan vs Isotope

[Physiocrat]

antohan

Isotope

antohan Tactics

Underlying philosophy
The era in question could be summarised as “the coronation of the attacking fullback”, with two players increasingly being deployed as a better alternative to having four out there on the flanks. The upside being more room for control and variations down the spine. As such, my drafting and teams revolve around making full use of two of the best attacking fullbacks ever, not just in this era. Last time out it was a Parma-style 5-3-2/3-5-2, this time it’s closer to Milan’s 4-3-2-1, but with some tweaks.

Default tactics and style
The formation indicates how we go about things in possession. The arrows indicate the instructions for default defensive shape. It looks 4-3-3 but is effectively a 2-1-4-3 in possession and 5-3-1-1 in defensive shape.

We again work on quick transitions. Much like SAF once famously played 7 defenders, we could in theory swamp the midfield to try control possession. Other than Chiellini and Puyol, every player out there is comfortable in midfield and even our three forwards have a higher workrate than your average midfielder.

Why on earth would we want to do that though? We are facing an attacking side that will come at us, while sporting a backline which looks vulnerable, has lost its best defender and is completely inadequate for the job. The goalie is stuck in the goalmouth area and, other than Panucci (the attacking fullback venturing up the pitch), they are all pretty one-paced. These are players we know would rather sit deep, and will have to, as Cavani will pin them back or destroy them running onto a ball over the top. That in turn will leave oceans of space between the lines, the sort of space few can exploit as well as Raúl, Rooney and Roberto Carlos/Zanetti on either flank, with the best execution possible: Pirlo’s.

Spoiler: AN ILLUSTRATION OF HOW THINGS CAN PLAY OUT, EVEN WITHOUT PIRLO PASSES

Most players and their roles are pretty straight-forward but a few deserve further light:

• Why Cavani and not Crespo? It’s not just about drive and the spunk needed when Bergomi and Montero will kick you to pieces. He was also scoring 30+ goals a season in a 3-4-3 with wingbacks and his movement with Lavezzi/Hamsik either side of him made them unplayable at times. Imagine that being Raúl and Rooney. I don’t want a static striker they service, I want those three working the channels, interchanging, dragging defenders all over the place and any one of them providing the assist or finishing the move from anywhere inside or outside the box. While Crespo’s scoring record was similar but against tougher defences, what Cavani has on him is that he will make that trio more fluid and unpredictable.
• Raúl and Rooney in defensive phase. Raúl may harass a midfielder at times or try nick a ball or two, but is primarily dropping to link up and start moves from midfield, as he did in two Champions League final wins. Rooney is asked to do the exact same job he was tasked with in the 2008 CL Final: when defending, drop deep to support Scholes on that side, in the process free up Scholes as he was the primary outlet, and upon recovery give them hell on the break. Boy I miss the sight of Rooney darting through the midfield alongside Cristiano and with options either side or in front, edge of your seat stuff.
• Why is Pirlo not in the pivot? He is when it matters: in the defensive phase and immediately after turnover. The latter is when with a single swing of his boot he leaves us on the brink of a goal scoring opportunity. The former is often overlooked. Pirlo may not be an aggressive type flying into tackles, but what he does have is the same brain and awareness that makes him effective executing the transition. In the very heart of the action, you have a guy who can spot and put himself about to snuff out emerging danger. His tackles and interceptions in that area are not at all insignificant (~4/game), more so when the follow up on those immediately puts rivals on the backfoot.
• Why is Sammer a DM dropping into defence and not a sweeper coming out? It’s effectively the exact same libero role, he may not even drop straight into sweeper, just a case that the formation shows us with the ball and that’s where he usually is with the ball. That said, if Iso were to keep his wingers conservative to “beef up the midfield battle” (when in fact they are matched all the way by Carlos and Zanetti), or we needed to take on more risks after falling behind (unlikely, but always a dangerous twist when you plan to counter) he could venture further up in possession.

Spoiler

Player profiles and peak: LINK

Subs: Óscar Córdoba, Manuel Sanchís, Krasimir Balakov, Gianfranco Zola, Hernán Crespo

Injured: Luis Enrique

Isotope Tactics

Thanks for setting the game up, Physio and Synco.


The Team lined up in a normal 4-4-2 formation that turn into 4-2-3-1 when having the ball. The Team has tactical identity of devastating pace, ability to make key passes from almost every position, the use of inside runs from wide, and drifting position of forwards.

The attack are led by Ronaldo, Kaka, and Figo. All are Ballon d’Or winners within their stated peak periods.

Ronaldo: Ballon d'Or 1997, 2002; World Player of the Year 1996, 1997, 2002

Spoiler

Year	Game	Goal	Assist
1996-97	57	56	12
1997-98	65	46	10
1998-99	36	19	7

Kaka: Ballon d'Or 2007; UEFA Team of the Year 2006, 2007, 2009

Spoiler: Kaka

Year	Game	Goal	Assist
2006-07	62	24	13
2007-08	50	23	17
2008-09	40	17	15

Luis Figo: Ballon d'Or 2000, World Player of the Year 2001

Spoiler

Year	Game	Goal	Assist
1999-00	61	21	17
2000-01	65	22	27
2001-02	56	17	17

More than just wingers, both Donadoni and Figo can also move inside to either pressing or controlling the game as both are capable playing as midfielders.

Other than superb in protecting defence, Vieira as a ball playing central/defensive midfielder will help dictating the play (like he did for Arsenal) and Schweinsteiger as a metronomic deeper influence.

Behind the midfield are a solid back four, that includes Bergomi, Helguera, Montero, and Pannuci. They are all also good passers of the ball. And the experienced Zubizaretta, guarding the net.

Defending

When the ball got into the Team’s midfield, Kaka dropped between the lines & Ronaldo drifted to the left, preparing for counter attack.

Behind these two, the Team defended with two banks of four with Vieira and Schweinsteiger dropping deep to shield the back four. With these two ball playing midfielders, the Team will be able to get out from opponents pressing by quickly passing between the line to quickly turn defence into attack. Also having a hardworking winger in Donadoni, will help nullify opponents right-side attacking threat.

Attacking

The Team is not an all-out counter-attacking side, but still make use of attacking players devastating pace and movement. Ronaldo could either run between CBs or drift left and make runs into the box, or divert the opposition CB’s creating space for others. Joined Ronaldo is one of the best winger in Figo, and best no. 10 in Kaka.

 

[Physiocrat]

@antohan
@Isotope

Game on!

Poll please @harms @Invictus

 

[antohan]

exactly as expected, have a full dirt-dishing (mostly just piss-taking) rundown on each and every player, just for old time's sake.

Will let people get up to speed with the tactics and instructions, but definitely have to get this out of the way from the get go:

ROOTED TO THE SPOT
The definition of Andoni Zubizarreta. A great shot-stopper on the completely wrong side of the cut off.

Ever since Cruyff took over at Barcelona, he had been insisting on the need for him to come off his line and closer to the edge of the box, as his teams of course played with a high line. Zubi however was horrendous on the ball, so much so that Cruyff made him participate in rondos, with Zubi famously complaining it made him feel incompetent and that he was the victim of bullying from his gaffer.

It wasn’t all that bad so long as he could just pick the ball up, but then in the Summer of 1992 (the cut off point were his “peak” here apparently starts) the backpass rule was introduced. Zubizarreta could no longer pick up the ball and had to rely on his terrible footwork. Lots of keepers and backlines had a hard time adapting to it, but I don’t remember a single goalkeeper suffering that rule as much as Zubizarreta did. The inevitable outcome was by the end of the 92-93 season Andoni, who always favoured standing under the posts -as shotstoppers like De Gea inevitably do- no longer ventured out of the six-yard box. Not ever, not under any circumstances.

With Barca still playing a high line, this meant every single time a rival broke through it in possession or to run onto a ball over the top, it wasn’t a one on one as much as it was an execution. After Barca lost 4-3 to Atlético (after being 3-0 up) late in 1993, Cruyff had had enough and benched Spain’s starting keeper to play Busquets’ obscure daddy instead… until of course they lost again and everyone was screaming bloody murder at Zubizarreta being on the bench so he got reinstated.

Zubizarreta’s contract ended in June 1994, Cruyff was so enamoured with his peak form he made no attempt to renew it and, the morning after he shipped four goals in the Champions League Final, he was told he should look for another club. On the team bus. Some peak that.

All that said, Zubi is lucky the defence in front of him is unsuited (also outright unwilling, in nowhere-near-peak Bergomi’s case) to play a high line here. The problem however is then passed on to the space between backline and midfield.

 

[Isotope]

Funny that after Zubizarreta left, that's the last time Cruyff won the League with Barca.

 

[antohan]

Funny that after Zubizarreta left, that's the last time Cruyff won the League with Barca.

Funny indeed. May have had something to do with Laudrup moving to Real? Or Real signing Redondo and promoting Raúl from Castilla?

Valencia, the team Zubizarreta joined dropped from 7th in the league to 10th in your third "peak" season.

 

[antohan]

OK, since we are both here now

A quick run through Iso’s men and what's going through their heads
Parental warning: just good old fun and games, don’t take it too seriously, you guys are far too polite

Zubizarreta: rooted to his spot and scarred by Cruyff’s bullying.

Bergomi: didn’t play a single game for Italy during this “peak”. I know, Sacchi preferred his Milan boys, but surely he was golden as a squad player? Problem is Sacchi also liked to play a high line and relied on the offside trap. As Bergkamp found out, nobody at Inter could be arsed with that and thought it was completely mental to stray from the low block. Unfortunately, football does require you to get out of your cave at times, like that time in 1991 when Italy was losing to Norway in the Euro qualifiers and Ferri got injured. Bergomi got thrown onto the pitch to play in a -much needed- high line. He lasted all of 19 seconds and that’s why he never played again until Nesta got injured in 1998.

Montero: I love Paolo, but I did skip him precisely because the pace is somewhat lacking there and could hurt. He was immense for Uruguay… which basically played with a parked bus all game. Both him and Bergomi are a red card waiting to happen. Vieira also has an impressive record there.

Helguera: poor man’s Hierro with all his shortcomings and none of his outstanding redeeming qualities. In fairness, I don’t expect all three of these chaps sitting back just for the one Cavani. Helguera will venture into the Pacific Ocean to try pick up Raúl and Rooney early on. They’ll run rings around him and he will wind up stranded in no man’s land.

Panucci: only defender with any pace but he is fannying around up the flank.

Schweinsteiger: be careful not to drop a bollock, you only started playing in midfield last week.

Vieira: will no doubt go all billy big bollocks on Andrea Pirlo. Pirlo will answer on the pitch. De Rossi and Sammer will bark at him in the tunnel and that will be that.

Figo: is thinking he put up with pigheads being thrown at him when he moved to Real to avoid Bobby Carlos. Now facing Carlos again, FFS. And that dirty German swine is doing an American Pie mounting one of them pig heads. Christ, I’m too classy and elegant for this lot, will just sit back and drop my jaw at the Raúl show.

I think he is the greatest player to have ever played the game. He walks on the turf and astounds. It is utterly amazing.

Kaká: is depressed looking at Pirlo spraying balls for Rooney and Raúl and wondering why the feck Iso has that massive hard on for “midfield generals” and pictures of them shouting and looking angry on his bedroom walls while fecking Pep Guardiola of all people is sitting on the bench. The defence is shite anyway, if you are going to leave your hairy arse exposed and pointing to the ceiling like that you may as well play three at the back and Guardiola as a DLP. He remembers the wise words of their teammate…

When I see Pirlo play I ask myself if I can really be considered a footballer

Donadoni: used to playing with the best backline ever™ (no, he never played for Liverpool) he is watching that shower of shite and thinking “Defenso Catastrofo”.

Ronaldo: I can’t bring myself to say anything even remotely bad about him, not that any amount of piss-taking would ever affect someone shaving a Mount of Venus on his forehead. Isotope did all the work for me last week anyway showing us a clip of the now injured Ferrara keeping peak Ronaldo in his pocket. I’ll just leave the GManagerOAT to make his own assessment.

I hope he doesn’t like travelling. Failing that we will stop him entering the country. Real buy these big players like Figo, Zidane and Ronaldo but I think the best player in the world is Raúl.

 

[Isotope]

The fact is, Zubizarreta was the main Gk of that Dream Team (1990-1994), and was Spain's Gk no. 1 and Captain until he retired in 1998. I don't see him as any weakness during his stated peak of 1992-1995.

 

[Isotope]

those players trashing. Love you, man.

 

[antohan]

The fact is, Zubizarreta was the main Gk of that Dream Team (1990-1994), and was Spain's Gk no. 1 and Captain until he retired in 1998. I don't see him as any weakness during his stated peak of 1992-1995.

As said, in Cruyff's Dream Team, Zubizarreta was Cruyff's worst nightmare and more so after the backpass rule was introduced (and this era starts right after it). Cruyff wouldn't stop raving about Ajax's keeper but obviously couldn't do feck all about that as he was already having a hard time juggling Laudrup, Koeman, Stoichkov and Romario. It's all well documented, more than a wekaness, it means you have picked a keeper that massively compromises you tactically. Fortunately, the backline isn't the sort that would leave him too exposed, it's the space between midfield and defence that will be exposed instead.

You can't just randomly pick keepers and defenders, stick them there and say "good keeper, good defenders, played for big teams", they actually have to be coherent with what you are trying to do elsewhere on the pitch. They aren't. Reminds me of this.

Re: being Spain's #1 until 1998... For starters, Spain didn't play like Barca, they played a 5-3-2. Still, since you bring it up, it did show that -as usual- they held on to a past it keeper for far too long, or have you never seen this either?


That goal ultimately knocked Spain out in 1998.

 

[Isotope]

As said, in Cruyff's Dream Team, Zubizarreta was Cruyff's worst nightmare and more so after the backpass rule was introduced (and this era starts right after it). Cruyff wouldn't stop raving about Ajax's keeper but obviously couldn't do feck all about that as he was already having a hard time juggling Laudrup, Koeman, Stoichkov and Romario. It's all well documented, more than a wekaness, it means you have picked a keeper that massively compromises you tactically. Fortunately, the backline isn't the sort that would leave him too exposed, it's the space between midfield and defence that will be exposed instead.

You can't just randomly pick keepers and defenders, stick them there and say "good keeper, good defenders, played for big teams", they actually have to be coherent with what you are trying to do elsewhere on the pitch. They aren't. Reminds me of this.

Re: being Spain's #1 until 1998... For starters, Spain didn't play like Barca, they played a 5-3-2. Still, since you bring it up, it did show that -as usual- they held on to a past it keeper for far too long, or have you never seen this either?


That goal ultimately knocked Spain out in 1998.

And my team doesn't play like Barca either. I just want to show that he was still highly regarded. Also if Cruyff was really against him, why would he persist with Zubizaretta for those 4 years, though?

That game was 3 years outside my stated peak. And bloopers to show how shit is Gk? Every Gk has one.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Why is Sammer a DM dropping into defence and not a sweeper coming out? It’s effectively the exact same libero role, he may not even drop straight into sweeper, just a case that the formation shows us with the ball and that’s where he usually is with the ball. That said, if Iso were to keep his wingers conservative to “beef up the midfield battle” (when in fact they are matched all the way by Carlos and Zanetti), or we needed to take on more risks after falling behind (unlikely, but always a dangerous twist when you plan to counter) he could venture further up in possession.

Haven't you shat upon Sammer in DM drop back role before? Or was that someone else?

 

[antohan]

And my team doesn't play like Barca either. I just want to show that he was still highly regarded.

He was highly regarded based on his previous track record. Seriously, you don't want me to dig up clips of what a nervous wreck he could be when coming off his line.

Also if Cruyff was really against him, why would he persist with Zubizaretta for those 4 years, though?

As stated, the last two (the ones in your peak post backpass rule) were the most problematic. It was all too new at the time for people to gather it and buy into ditching a player fully identified with the club, just look at how bloody hard it was for Mourinho to get shot of Casillas.

The logic was straightforward though, think about how much teams today pass back to the keeper, think about how far off the goal they come to distribute. Cruyff didn't want it for timewasting ala Liverpool, he needed it under very similar circumstances, as an option for under pressure defenders and to narrow the gap between the lines. Instead his defenders had that outlet out of bounds. It DOES condition and inevitably lead to unnecessary loss of possession in dangerous areas.

But don't take it from me, just get it from the horse's mouth.

That game was 3 years outside my stated peak. And bloopers to show how shit is Gk? Every Gk has one.

You were the one bringing up him still being their keeper as some sort of ISO9000 of goalkeeping.

 

[antohan]

Haven't you shat upon Sammer in DM drop back role before? Or was that someone else?

No clue mate. It's not a DM drop back role ala 2002 Ramelow or Edmilson anyway.

I wouldn't constrain Sammer to such a role, no, he is playing libero, with no iron cast role to return to (e.g. Passarella, Beckenbauer, etc) but effectively as free a role (with defence as priority) as you would give to a Maradona upfront (with attacking as a priority). I'm essentially depicting what that would most likely be like, but also indicated what it could be like under certain circumstances.

 

[Isotope]

He was highly regarded based on his previous track record. Seriously, you don't want me to dig up clips of what a nervous wreck he could be when coming off his line.


As stated, the last two (the ones in your peak post backpass rule) were the most problematic. It was all too new at the time for people to gather it and buy into ditching a player fully identified with the club, just look at how bloody hard it was for Mourinho to get shot of Casillas.

The logic was straightforward though, think about how much teams today pass back to the keeper, think about how far off the goal they come to distribute. Cruyff didn't want it for timewasting ala Liverpool, he needed it under very similar circumstances, as an option for under pressure defenders and to narrow the gap between the lines. Instead his defenders had that outlet out of bounds. It DOES condition and inevitably lead to unnecessary loss of possession in dangerous areas.

But don't take it from me, just get it from the horse's mouth.


You were the one bringing up him still being their keeper as some sort of ISO9000 of goalkeeping.

It's just your outdated tactic, man. Focusing on non-existant issue, which is a Gk as good as Zubizaretta which was part of the Dream Team for the whole period, and was Spain no. 1 Gk and Captain. He might not "fit" in Cruyff's fetish (albeit funnily he was their main Gk during their best period"), but what Cruyff' Barca has to do with my team?

 

[Isotope]

Maybe we should just watch on how Chiellini, in a back four, is chasing Ronaldo, Figo, or Kaka; while Roberto Carlos is busy attacking on his side? And with your team's fullbacks as the sole source of providing width.

If De Rossi needs to cover for Carlos when he was attacking, and Sammer need to be there screening the defence, it will left Pirlo with a little options to bounce back passings when trying to progress in attacking phase. You have Rooney's there going down helping midfield, but then he needs to drop really deep to help Pirlo controlling the midfield, or protecting Pirlo. That would limit Pirlo's options to the front, and become predictable also. Pirlo would need to release the ball quicker, instead of progressing in controlled manner when he had two central midfielders by his side.

 

[Isotope]

But you have better tactical nous than me, anto. So it's another 4D chess tactic that my mind couldn't compute.

 

[Himannv]

@antohan I voted for Isotope for now because it's clear how his team will function and I don't have too many concerns. I'm open to changing things based on your answers to a couple of questions:

1. How do you see your midfield working? Pirlo is notoriously weak defensively and I think in past drafts he's had a tough time even when surrounded with the likes of Keane and Davids. How do you see things playing out with him and Sammer and is he a good fit on the right where he would ideally have to defend out wide at times?

2. I dislike Rooney on the right and I think he's said himself that he doesn't like playing there. What's your thinking regarding his positioning?

 

[antohan]

It's just your outdated tactic, man. Focusing on non-existant issue, which is a Gk as good as Zubizaretta which was part of the Dream Team for the whole period, and was Spain no. 1 Gk and Captain. He might not "fit" in Cruyff's fetish (albeit funnily he was their main Gk during their best period"), but what Cruyff' Barca has to do with my team?

So your proof of a non-existent issue is "he was part of the Dream Team and carried on playing for Spain"?

You are claiming a peak here, a certain level of performance should be expected and better backed up than going around calling Ferrara a ball-playing defender because he can execute 5-yard passes.

Let's start with "he was part of the Dream Team", have you ever seen the standard of Carles Busquets? This was his sub, the guy he was (briefly, of course) benched for. If you want a good laugh, watch the clip below. At times it looks like some dude on the stands won a raffle and got to play in nets. Mind you, halfway through it the same dude appears playing against Manchester United. A charmed life.


Zubizarreta was a great keeper in the 80s, not in 1992-95. The Marca piece I linked earlier is a summary of a Fiebre Maldini special called "Zubizarreta, the fall of a myth" (as in mythical) which tells how he went from hero to zero... during your "peak". You are effectively selecting as a peak the worst point of his career, one where he was constantly second-guessing and revisiting everything he knew about his positioning and command of the box.

On top of that though, keepers age. His reflexes were starting to deteriorate, he no longer had much of a spring/jump/agility but instead just increasingly seemed to flap at shots or fall sideways like a sack of potatoes. He still had a very safe pair of hands when a ball went at him, but when it didn't he was pretty average.

I could point at several examples that 93/94 season, Atlético, Milan, Germany, Italy, but of course it will ultimately be open to opinion (e.g. Savicevic's chip is beautiful, but a peak top keeper fingertips that over the post), "every keeper has a blooper", or "I don't play like Cruyff anyway" which isn't the point, the point is your keeper is in the worst form of his career.

 

[antohan]

Maybe we should just watch on how Chiellini, in a back four, is chasing Ronaldo, Figo, or Kaka; while Roberto Carlos is busy attacking on his side? And with your team's fullbacks as the sole source of providing width.

1. How does Bergomi deal with the triple threat of Cavani, Raúl and Rooney? Huh?
2. If Roberto Carlos is "busy attacking" then I have the ball and it's at the other end of the pitch so not much chasing to be done.
3. I gather Figo doesn't track back then? Awesome.
4. Are you at all aware that Raúl played as a left winger, not just left forward? And that he did that WITH Carlos? In fact, the most significant proven association and concurrent peak on the pitch? Are you aware Cavani did the same on the right? Have you seen Rooney on a football pitch?

If De Rossi needs to cover for Carlos when he was attacking, and Sammer need to be there screening the defence, it will left Pirlo with a little options to bounce back passings when trying to progress in attacking phase.

Eh? Have you never seen players moving and passing the ball in possession while keeping a shape consistent with their duties?

You have Rooney's there going down helping midfield, but then he needs to drop really deep to help Pirlo controlling the midfield, or protecting Pirlo. That would limit Pirlo's options to the front, and become predictable also. Pirlo would need to release the ball quicker, instead of progressing in controlled manner when he had two central midfielders by his side.

Some of these draft hypothetical ruminations... it's like we never watched Wayne Rooney in action in a big game.

You are also mixing up his defensive duties and what is expected of him upon recovery, which certainly isn't staying deep.

 

[Synco]

Pirlo is notoriously weak defensively and I think in past drafts he's had a tough time even when surrounded with the likes of Keane and Davids.

I'd say the latter speaks against Pirlo's image in the draft community more than anything else. I've watched several ~2010 Milan games recently and Pirlo is anything but a defensive liability.

What he's not is an athletic holding midfielder, of course. That's the part that needs to come from elsewhere. Pirlo is an active defender, but more in a sweeper kind of way, moving intelligently between more hands-on defensive players. But that doesn't mean he's passive or a pushover: you can very well see him tracking back, getting into physical duels, even making last ditch clearances & winning headers, etc. Very useful as a secondary ball-winner.

I haven't made the effort to understand anto's midfield setup tbh, but if De Rossi and possibly Sammer have a defensive presence in midfield (which I strongly suppose), Pirlo is absolutely fine against the ball there, imo.

 

[Gio]

I'm seeing a lot of cancelling out here. Certainly down the flanks where the respective Carlos/Figo and Zanetti/Donadoni duels will be a low-scoring draw. In midfield much the same, it's likely to be a bloodbath in there (Sammer and De Rossi v Schweinsteiger and Vieira). Despite being half-way down the reinforcement snake, Iso has strengthened really well here. Like Anto's attack, Cavani looks a natural target for Pirlo, Raul and Rooney are usually under-rated and I particularly like the Raul role here - the arrows are just spot on in conveying how he'll play. The difference for me at the moment is simply Ronaldo/Kaka v Anto's defence. Chiellini and Puyol would probably prefer a more combative or aerial opponent, and while Sammer's tactical nous and anticipation could throttle Kaka out of the game, the sum of that electric combo of Iso's looks like a bad match-up. At least in the last game against Enigma, Ronaldinho's wizardry was compensated by an extra layer of defensive security in the 352 system, while Villa and Suker were probably more natural match-ups for the likes of Puyol and Chiellini. Again that's not under-rating Chiellini, I think he's criminally under-appreciated here and is one of the only modern era defenders with an impressive record against Messi. It's just looks like a slightly less favourable match-up than at the other end, where the battle hardened Serie A defence, even with a post-peak Bergomi, would relish the duels with the likes of Cavani and Rooney in my view.

 

[Gio]

I'd say the latter speaks against Pirlo's image in the draft community more than anything else. I've watched several ~2010 Milan games recently and Pirlo is anything but a defensive liability.

What he's not is an athletic holding midfielder, of course. That's the part that needs to come from elsewhere. Pirlo is an active defender, but more in a sweeper kind of way, moving intelligently between more hands-on defensive players. But that doesn't mean he's passive or a pushover: you can very well see him tracking back, getting into physical duels, even making last ditch clearances & winning headers, etc. Very useful as a secondary ball-winner.

I haven't made the effort to understand anto's midfield setup tbh, but if De Rossi and possibly Sammer have a defensive presence in midfield (which I strongly suppose), Pirlo is absolutely fine against the ball there, imo.

Yeah, I think it's more of a draft thing where we see it as a series of 1v1 match-ups, sometimes with 11 balls on the park. I'd say that a generic lazy 10 is more of a defensive liability than Pirlo in a 3-man midfield unit, even thought that player is further away from goal.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

I'm seeing a lot of cancelling out here.

Yeah, I think it's more of a draft thing where we see it as a series of 1v1 match-ups, sometimes with 11 balls on the park.

 

[Gio]

Touché

 

[antohan]

@antohan I voted for Isotope for now because it's clear how his team will function and I don't have too many concerns.

Wow, I guess you really can pick any random backline and stick it there.

1. How do you see your midfield working? Pirlo is notoriously weak defensively and I think in past drafts he's had a tough time even when surrounded with the likes of Keane and Davids.

Firstly, I already pointed out in the OP Pirlo is not weak defensively. He isn't an aggressive ball winner, clearly, but he does bring something into the mix. It's a bit like how Carrick always got ran down for not being like Keane. He was effective though when it came to keeping the shape, cutting passing lanes, making interceptions... It's a different way of defending, but not irrelevant. I saw some stats a few years ago which showed his defensive contribution was in line with Modric's, which sounded about right/fair (this was ~2013/14).

Second, I suspect Pirlo getting targeted would have been more in the context of high press scenarios. You don't have one here, can't have one, that's precisely what I'm getting at re: that choice of backline and keeper severely hampering what Iso can and can't do here. I'm happy to let them have the ball and come at me but that's a conscious choice, it's not like I'm too worried they will actually control jack.

Let's take a likely scenario without drawing pretty triangles and shit. Assume Pirlo has received the ball here:

Vieira goes for the kill: Sammer-Rooney or Zanetti-Rooney, cue trouble
Figo and Schweinsteiger encroach pushing infield to support Vieira/cut lanes: lob it to Raúl, Carlos is off too, poor Panucci
"Oi, you are cheating, Panucci and Montero won't just stand there" OK, move them, particularly Montero and watch the ball pinged behind him.

Just keep running through it yourself, move the players (but then, both move!) you will get to the inevitable conclusion that having a one-paced deep-sitting backline with a goalie that won't come off his line is a fundamental problem that affords me far too much space to operate in.

How do you see things playing out with him and Sammer and is he a good fit on the right where he would ideally have to defend out wide at times?

Sammer's (and thus Pirlo's) positioning there primarily responds to the acknowledgement that going into the defensive phase Sammer will mostly be alert to Kaká and more often than not I would expect him to be nipping him in the bud where possible or tracking his runs. As I mentioned elsewhere, that's the safety first positioning but in-game things are in constant flux. E.g. it's a very different scenario if Pirlo (or Sammer, or De Rossi) executes a through ball that leaves my forwards running at his defence, or if we start passing the ball around in midfield. It doesn't just affect Sammer but how the fullbacks go about things. Remember Zanetti himself is a very proficient playmaker from wide areas, unless a quick counter down that side has sent him off down "the winger route" he is by all means a right midfielder once in possession.

I'm not seeing, expecting or claiming Pirlo will be defending out wide on the right. It's Zanetti vs Donadoni with no fullback supporting him. If Zanetti gets beat you get the standard Puyol next and Sammer covering.

As usual, when we start doing all this you start getting into the absurd world of stating what X, Y or Z will or will not do without seeing the full picture of where everyone is. Decision-making is situational, with all available information, that's why I rarely get too prescriptive because, ultimately, I draft cracking players I trust to make the right decisions themselves. Any one of us thinking he would make better decisions is off his rocker.

2. I dislike Rooney on the right and I think he's said himself that he doesn't like playing there. What's your thinking regarding his positioning?

Well, I picked his 2007-2010 self where he typically adapted to SAFs say-so and the many permutations he concocted with Cristiano as the starman and throwing in the likes of Park, Tevez, Anderson, Nani and later Berbatov. He was selfless and only ever really focused on winning at football. That role is the one he fulfilled in the 2008 CL Final and it worked very well, particularly in the first half.

He may yet get other roles, we'll see, for this game, this is where he can make the biggest impact. I could have made some symmetric formation, a diamond actually, and spared myself the hassle. I do think this is the best way to go about the game at hand, I knew a lot of questions would be asked and eyebrows would be raised. I absolutely need him to have a great game, but I couldn't think of a player I would trust more to deliver in that context.

 

[antohan]

I'd say the latter speaks against Pirlo's image in the draft community more than anything else. I've watched several ~2010 Milan games recently and Pirlo is anything but a defensive liability.

What he's not is an athletic holding midfielder, of course. That's the part that needs to come from elsewhere. Pirlo is an active defender, but more in a sweeper kind of way, moving intelligently between more hands-on defensive players. But that doesn't mean he's passive or a pushover: you can very well see him tracking back, getting into physical duels, even making last ditch clearances & winning headers, etc. Very useful as a secondary ball-winner.

I haven't made the effort to understand anto's midfield setup tbh, but if De Rossi and possibly Sammer have a defensive presence in midfield (which I strongly suppose), Pirlo is absolutely fine against the ball there, imo.

Precisely, couldn't (and didn't) put it better myself. The secondary ball winning is a great point, another important element of the game were intelligence/awareness trumps flexing mucles and looking all gladiatorial.

 

[antohan]

I'm seeing a lot of cancelling out here. Certainly down the flanks where the respective Carlos/Figo and Zanetti/Donadoni duels will be a low-scoring draw. In midfield much the same, it's likely to be a bloodbath in there (Sammer and De Rossi v Schweinsteiger and Vieira). Despite being half-way down the reinforcement snake, Iso has strengthened really well here. Like Anto's attack, Cavani looks a natural target for Pirlo, Raul and Rooney are usually under-rated and I particularly like the Raul role here - the arrows are just spot on in conveying how he'll play. The difference for me at the moment is simply Ronaldo/Kaka v Anto's defence. Chiellini and Puyol would probably prefer a more combative or aerial opponent, and while Sammer's tactical nous and anticipation could throttle Kaka out of the game, the sum of that electric combo of Iso's looks like a bad match-up. At least in the last game against Enigma, Ronaldinho's wizardry was compensated by an extra layer of defensive security in the 352 system, while Villa and Suker were probably more natural match-ups for the likes of Puyol and Chiellini. Again that's not under-rating Chiellini, I think he's criminally under-appreciated here and is one of the only modern era defenders with an impressive record against Messi. It's just looks like a slightly less favourable match-up than at the other end, where the battle hardened Serie A defence, even with a post-peak Bergomi, would relish the duels with the likes of Cavani and Rooney in my view.

Never worried at all about Chiellini.

I did however wonder if there would inevitably be some Benny Hill defending brought up from some old encounter of non-peak Ronaldo vs non-peak Puyol so looked up Real-Barca games. Typically high-scoring affairs and Barca didn't hog the ball all day back then, so was expecting to find something... but nope.

I was actually quite impressed at how he squared up to R9 and stood his ground, no brainfarts or committing himself and being left on his arse.

No need to look up how Sanchís fared vs peak Ronaldo, wound up actually being more confident than I was before.

 

[Himannv]

Fair enough on everything except Rooney's position. I don't know why you didn't simply switch him and Raul.

 

[Enigma_87]

I really hoped anto would bin De Rossi. One of the players I don't really rate and there's another one in the lineup that can join that conversation in Cavani. Whenever I watched him he hasn't impressed me at all. His best ability is of course getting into position and his fantastic movement, which is indeed world class, but he needs to play in a dominant team that would get 8-9 opportunities in a game.

At the time I rated Di Natale more during that timeframe and I'm positive no one would pick him even in a restricted draft.

On the other side I don't rate Montero - he's a hot head with weaknesses in the game who was often a liability. Helguera also is probably not the best fit especially when you look at the opposition and who he faces.

I'm giving it to Iso on the basis of the quality spread in the rest of his team and I can see him outscoring the opposition most of the cases.

 

[Synco]

My take on this game, very briefly: Iso's midfield & attack are top class, as is antohan's back five & front three (although Ronny/Kaka are unmatched).

On the other hand, I'm not 100% convinced by Iso's backline, while I think anto's overall midfield composition is suffering from not having Luis Enrique available.

All in all I rate Isotope's advantages a little higher, and he narrowly nicks it for me.

 

[antohan]

Fair enough on everything except Rooney's position. I don't know why you didn't simply switch him and Raul.

Interesting. From the outset I thought I already had my inverted right forward if I got to play something along those lines. Didn't expect anyone to find it so natural to swap Raúl to the right (as happened with ADP earlier).

Never an option here though, I've no need for De Rossi on the right. It is Zanetti that doesn't need a DM supporting his flank.

 

[Gio]

I really hoped anto would bin De Rossi. One of the players I don't really rate and there's another one in the lineup that can join that conversation in Cavani. Whenever I watched him he hasn't impressed me at all. His best ability is of course getting into position and his fantastic movement, which is indeed world class, but he needs to play in a dominant team that would get 8-9 opportunities in a game.

At the time I rated Di Natale more during that timeframe and I'm positive no one would pick him even in a restricted draft.

On the other side I don't rate Montero - he's a hot head with weaknesses in the game who was often a liability. Helguera also is probably not the best fit especially when you look at the opposition and who he faces.

I'm giving it to Iso on the basis of the quality spread in the rest of his team and I can see him outscoring the opposition most of the cases.

Kudos for triggering as many of Antohan's button's as possible in one post. We just need a take-down of Luis Enrique to finish him off.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Kudos for triggering as many of Antohan's button's as possible in one post. We just need a take-down of Luis Enrique to finish him off.

 

[Himannv]

Interesting. From the outset I thought I already had my inverted right forward if I got to play something along those lines. Didn't expect anyone to find it so natural to swap Raúl to the right (as happened with ADP earlier).

Never an option here though, I've no need for De Rossi on the right. It is Zanetti that doesn't need a DM supporting his flank.

Raul can score with both feet but I'd lean towards him favouring his left foot so the angle to cut in from the right seems natural. Same story but opposite with Rooney on the left (although in his case I don't rate his left foot all that highly).

 

[Enigma_87]

So your proof of a non-existent issue is "he was part of the Dream Team and carried on playing for Spain"?

You are claiming a peak here, a certain level of performance should be expected and better backed up than going around calling Ferrara a ball-playing defender because he can execute 5-yard passes.

Let's start with "he was part of the Dream Team", have you ever seen the standard of Carles Busquets? This was his sub, the guy he was (briefly, of course) benched for. If you want a good laugh, watch the clip below. At times it looks like some dude on the stands won a raffle and got to play in nets. Mind you, halfway through it the same dude appears playing against Manchester United. A charmed life.


Zubizarreta was a great keeper in the 80s, not in 1992-95. The Marca piece I linked earlier is a summary of a Fiebre Maldini special called "Zubizarreta, the fall of a myth" (as in mythical) which tells how he went from hero to zero... during your "peak". You are effectively selecting as a peak the worst point of his career, one where he was constantly second-guessing and revisiting everything he knew about his positioning and command of the box.

On top of that though, keepers age. His reflexes were starting to deteriorate, he no longer had much of a spring/jump/agility but instead just increasingly seemed to flap at shots or fall sideways like a sack of potatoes. He still had a very safe pair of hands when a ball went at him, but when it didn't he was pretty average.

I could point at several examples that 93/94 season, Atlético, Milan, Germany, Italy, but of course it will ultimately be open to opinion (e.g. Savicevic's chip is beautiful, but a peak top keeper fingertips that over the post), "every keeper has a blooper", or "I don't play like Cruyff anyway" which isn't the point, the point is your keeper is in the worst form of his career.

Think you are swinging in the wrong direction, anto. GK's are very, very rarely a decisive figure in draft games and even if this is the case the quality between Pagliuca and older Zubizzareta is not that big.

In addition to that Crespo as a starter was no brainer for me, especially that he has 2 in 2 record vs Helguera.

What @Himannv is saying makes a lot of sense as your best forward (Raul) at his peak years will target the zone where Iso's defence is the lightest - between Montero and Helguera. Considering you also have Zanetti on that flank swings that zone in your favor.

Kudos for triggering as many of Antohan's button's as possible in one post. We just need a take-down of Luis Enrique to finish him off.

He's injured isn't he?

 

[Jim Beam]

I really hoped anto would bin De Rossi. One of the players I don't really rate and there's another one in the lineup that can join that conversation in Cavani. Whenever I watched him he hasn't impressed me at all. His best ability is of course getting into position and his fantastic movement, which is indeed world class, but he needs to play in a dominant team that would get 8-9 opportunities in a game.

Like Uruguay? Or Napoli? Or this our shower of shit at the age of 34 and missing the whole season before?

 

[antohan]

I really hoped anto would bin De Rossi. One of the players I don't really rate

I knew both you and @Šjor Bepo have an irrational dislike for De Rossi. His role here isn't exactly rocket science and I was actually more concerned about him getting injured than Luis Enrique as: 1) he fits the job far more clearly, 2) he knows Pirlo's game and viceversa, while Lucho would be a better fit with Guardiola.

I am not one to pay all that much attention to partnerships, let alone completely random ones. Ferdinand-Vidic? Absolutely. Ferrara-Montero? Same. Raúl and Roberto Carlos are a similar powerful combination, the only one out there that played together week in week out during the stated peaks. I am not claiming Pirlo-De Rossi sharing peaks and NT is at the same level (that would be Pirlo-Gattuso, clearly), but there is a relevant "sync" there which certainly helps Andrea. After all, De Rossi -originally a starter, returning from suspension- did actually get introduced in the WC Final to beef up the midfield to better control Zidane and afford Pirlo more freedom.

and there's another one in the lineup that can join that conversation in Cavani. Whenever I watched him he hasn't impressed me at all. His best ability is of course getting into position and his fantastic movement, which is indeed world class, but he needs to play in a dominant team that would get 8-9 opportunities in a game.

That's absolute nonsense. It has been proven time and again he misses more because he carves out more opportunities for himself.

Fact is Napoli went from scoring 50 goals in the league to 66. His partners, Lavezzi and Hamsik, maintained their scoring rate but doubled their assist count. It's not like he started scoring (and missing 8-9x as many, in your mind) instead of other people, he elevated them.

At the time I rated Di Natale more during that timeframe and I'm positive no one would pick him even in a restricted draft.

The rating part, fair enough. Di Natale was in peak form, had been around and doing it for longer, and that Udinese side looked pretty sexy. I don't see anything wrong with you rating him higher then.

Your positivity on nobody picking him means feck all regarding both players. I don't rate players based on whether people would pick them for a draft. I have a fair few "firsts" that I had to battle my way through and are regulars these days.

Mind you, Di Natale has featured in drafts before. Fresher in the memory then I suppose. There's been tonnes of players that were flavour of the month at some point and have slowly disappeared as time goes by.

 

[antohan]

My take on this game, very briefly: Iso's midfield & attack are top class, as is antohan's back five & front three (although Ronny/Kaka are unmatched).

On the other hand, I'm not 100% convinced by Iso's backline, while I think anto's overall midfield composition is suffering from not having Luis Enrique available.

All in all I rate Isotope's advantages a little higher, and he narrowly nicks it for me.

I won't dispute Ronaldo and Kaká are great, what I would dispute however is that if my back five is top class they should be able to deal with that, while an unconvincing backline will not be able to handle my front three, even if you make the caveat of then not quite matching the moutwatering side of the former.

Midfield isn't suffering Luis Enrique's absence unless you let me play with 12 men. If you ask ME, I think he can pull off the job De Rossi has and bring even more to the table. But then, that's ME, when everything indicates that where I see Keano with goals most of you guys see John O'Shea with (more) goals. The only appreciation he ever seems to get (flexible, versatile, basically, bloody useful in drafts) sounds more like a backhanded compliment to me. And of course it doesn't matter where you play him or under which instructions that someone will claim he was better playing elsewhere, yadda yadda.

I stick to my men and what I know about them anyhow, couldn't give a shit how the caf rates them on a poll. That said, there's no room for interpretation as to whether De Rossi can do that job and I'm not dropping Sammer or Pirlo so not sure where you expect him to slot in. Had I not got Rooney, yeah, he is the next guy in my mind who can pull off that job. The teamsheet would look exactly the same with the same positions and arrows. Maybe people would be more comfortable with it defensively, but personally I'm far more interested on how we execute the transition once in possession and however much I love Lucho, he is no Rooney.

 

[antohan]

Raul can score with both feet but I'd lean towards him favouring his left foot so the angle to cut in from the right seems natural. Same story but opposite with Rooney on the left (although in his case I don't rate his left foot all that highly).

I'm not playing inverted wingers/forwards though. Again, the moment Iso's most dangerous flank is on my left, De Rossi must be on the left and thus Rooney drops on the right. It's only Vieira, meh, last thing I have to worry about here. So he plays on that side and he won't give a crap what side he prefers because Wazza will understand perfectly well that's where the team needs him.

This whole cut in and shoot thing that people are so enamoured with is something I can't quite grasp as a "thing" unless the player's attributes are such that he hits a completely different level as a result (e.g. Robben). These are Raúl and Wayne fecking Rooney, I'm not reducing them to predictable and easy to defend against one-trick ponies.

 

[Himannv]

I'm not playing inverted wingers/forwards though. Again, the moment Iso's most dangerous flank is on my left, De Rossi must be on the left and thus Rooney drops on the right. It's only Vieira, meh, last thing I have to worry about here. So he plays on that side and he won't give a crap what side he prefers because Wazza will understand perfectly well that's where the team needs him.

This whole cut in and shoot thing that people are so enamoured with is something I can't quite grasp as a "thing" unless the player's attributes are such that he hits a completely different level as a result (e.g. Robben). These are Raúl and Wayne fecking Rooney, I'm not reducing them to predictable and easy to defend against one-trick ponies.

Ok, I get what you're trying to do.

What's your beef with Vieira?