Nostalgia Draft - QF: antohan vs Isotope

[antohan]

Think you are swinging in the wrong direction, anto. GK's are very, very rarely a decisive figure in draft games and even if this is the case the quality between Pagliuca and older Zubizzareta is not that big.

Firstly, I don't care what is decisive in a draft, I'm just calling it for what it is. And if you don't see the difference between Ginaluca Pagliuca and an old version of Zubizarreta I may as well pack it in.

In addition to that Crespo as a starter was no brainer for me, especially that he has 2 in 2 record vs Helguera.

Oh, yeah, Crespo has a 2 in 2 record vs Helguera. Wow! Game over, huh? What a load of shite.

I rate peak Crespo very highly. The static non-peak one everyone seems to have in their minds would be completely inadequate. It's not a Cavani hard on or else I would have played him in the previous game too, I just think Cavani would gel better with Raúl and Rooney in this setup and against this particular backline. Crespo would be a safer starter, I know.

 

[antohan]

Ok, I get what you're trying to do.

What's your beef with Vieira?

Nothing. Wouldn't you agree Vieira is far down the pecking order in what my defensive setup has to address? Rooney on him is fine. Going back to @Synco comment re: Luis Enrique, which would you rather have? Rooney having to keep tabs on Vieira but then having Rooney on the counter, or Luis Enrique? I rate Lucho very highly, but Rooney was immense on the break.

 

[antohan]

By the way, not that I will hear much praise, but what are your views @BlackShark_80 ? I know most of the guys that voted even if they don't comment, but not the case with you so I'm starting to get what @Jim Beam was getting at

 

[Enigma_87]

Like Uruguay? Or Napoli? Or this our shower of shit at the age of 34 and missing the whole season before?

Mainly PSG and Napoli. For PSG when he had to take the mantle off Ibra and replace him as striker(latter was injured), he failed to produce again and again and as soon as Ibra got back he was shifted wide.

At Napoli he had a very low conversion rate and averaged taking 9-10 penos each season.

a comparison with Higuain at the time:

That was his best year in Italy and that league at the time was hardly in flying colors. He took one of the highest shots/game ratios and had one of the lowest efficiency ratings compared to other goalscorers across Europe. His shot accuracy wasn't the best either.

So yeah, his style was taking a lot of shots, and his conversion rate isn't the best, which is what I was saying. On top of that like 90% of the big games I've watched him during his best, he was underperforming - that's my personal opinion.

 

[Enigma_87]

I knew both you and @Šjor Bepo have an irrational dislike for De Rossi. His role here isn't exactly rocket science and I was actually more concerned about him getting injured than Luis Enrique as: 1) he fits the job far more clearly, 2) he knows Pirlo's game and viceversa, while Lucho would be a better fit with Guardiola.

I am not one to pay all that much attention to partnerships, let alone completely random ones. Ferdinand-Vidic? Absolutely. Ferrara-Montero? Same. Raúl and Roberto Carlos are a similar powerful combination, the only one out there that played together week in week out during the stated peaks. I am not claiming Pirlo-De Rossi sharing peaks and NT is at the same level (that would be Pirlo-Gattuso, clearly), but there is a relevant "sync" there which certainly helps Andrea. After all, De Rossi -originally a starter, returning from suspension- did actually get introduced in the WC Final to beef up the midfield to better control Zidane and afford Pirlo more freedom.

It's not really the role of De Rossi. He was caf's darling a long time ago and everyone wanted him when he first shone at Roma. To me - I've never been a fan. It's not a question of fit, but rather quality. He didn't reach the heights and his full potential and to me he was living on past glory for season after season in 10-20 decade where he was average to shit for Roma, who also under performed at times.
No question of fit, but when he faces Schweinsteiger and Vieira at the other end he will get walkovered and is a liability in the middle of the park. Especially when you consider two hard working wingers in Donadoni and Figo either side, which will result him not being able to hide on the pitch or getting covered by someone else on consistent basis.

He has the mentality but to me was more of a huff and puff and not backed with quality. That's my take on it I know a lot rate him, but I just don't.

That's absolute nonsense. It has been proven time and again he misses more because he carves out more opportunities for himself.

Fact is Napoli went from scoring 50 goals in the league to 66. His partners, Lavezzi and Hamsik, maintained their scoring rate but doubled their assist count. It's not like he started scoring (and missing 8-9x as many, in your mind) instead of other people, he elevated them.

The rating part, fair enough. Di Natale was in peak form, had been around and doing it for longer, and that Udinese side looked pretty sexy. I don't see anything wrong with you rating him higher then.

Your positivity on nobody picking him means feck all regarding both players. I don't rate players based on whether people would pick them for a draft. I have a fair few "firsts" that I had to battle my way through and are regulars these days.

Mind you, Di Natale has featured in drafts before. Fresher in the memory then I suppose. There's been tonnes of players that were flavour of the month at some point and have slowly disappeared as time goes by.

Again, personal opinion, I know you will disagree He gets into an awful lot of chances and finishes 1-2 in 10. I've posted stats from his best season in Italy he was even worse in that sense for PSG. It's again my observation both in CL and in France, he's one of the most frustrating forwards to watch. Great movement, great mentality and stamina, but can't be relied upon when the chips are down. He has his flashes of brilliance but was never in the top forwards category to me.

For example Torres was one - his decline was much worse but at his peak he was feared by most of the defenders and he had the tools to decide any game. I have never had the same feeling with Cavani. He would either miss an easy chance, then score a tap in, then score a worldie from outside the box, then fall flat on his arse 5-6 times in good positions. He was like the upgraded version of Welbeck and to me always lacked the consistency.

 

[Gio]

Mainly PSG and Napoli. For PSG when he had to take the mantle off Ibra and replace him as striker(latter was injured), he failed to produce again and again and as soon as Ibra got back he was shifted wide.

At Napoli he had a very low conversion rate and averaged taking 9-10 penos each season.

a comparison with Higuain at the time:

That was his best year in Italy and that league at the time was hardly in flying colors. He took one of the highest shots/game ratios and had one of the lowest efficiency ratings compared to other goalscorers across Europe. His shot accuracy wasn't the best either.

So yeah, his style was taking a lot of shots, and his conversion rate isn't the best, which is what I was saying. On top of that like 90% of the big games I've watched him during his best, he was underperforming - that's my personal opinion.

To be fair that looks like an exceptionally deadly campaign for Higuain, rather than Cavani being a wastly outlier. When I looked at those metrics a few years ago, most of the best strikers were scoring somewhere in the region of 1 out of every 4-5 shots. Occasionally somebody would burst the trend, like Pedro in his breakout season who averaged 1 in 2, and at the other side you had greedy types like Cristiano needing 6-7 shots.

 

[harms]

Mainly PSG and Napoli. For PSG when he had to take the mantle off Ibra and replace him as striker(latter was injured), he failed to produce again and again and as soon as Ibra got back he was shifted wide.

At Napoli he had a very low conversion rate and averaged taking 9-10 penos each season.

a comparison with Higuain at the time:

That was his best year in Italy and that league at the time was hardly in flying colors. He took one of the highest shots/game ratios and had one of the lowest efficiency ratings compared to other goalscorers across Europe. His shot accuracy wasn't the best either.

So yeah, his style was taking a lot of shots, and his conversion rate isn't the best, which is what I was saying. On top of that like 90% of the big games I've watched him during his best, he was underperforming - that's my personal opinion.

2020/21 conversation rate, for example

Cristiano 16,2 (he gets more & more wasteful every season with shots from every position)
Messi 18,1
Mbappé 20,7
Lewa 23,1

18,6 is not a bad rate, especially if you're not playing for a truly top team — Higuain's numbers are quite insane, but you have to count 1. the amount of sub appearances which usually increase those kind of rates as it's easier for a great striker to score against tired defences 2. the amount of clear cut chances that he gets. Also, Real absolutely dominated La Liga that season and that team had an insane amount of creativity in Özil, Di Maria, Modrić, Alonso (and even Cristiano still contributing in that regard).

 

[antohan]

Mainly PSG and Napoli. For PSG when he had to take the mantle off Ibra and replace him as striker(latter was injured), he failed to produce again and again and as soon as Ibra got back he was shifted wide.

So you are assessing a guy who is shunted out wide for three season on the trot as a striker based on him not instantly hitting top form on the rare occasions the main striker was injured?

You should assess him on how he did once Zlatan left and he got an entire season as the starting striker. He scored as much as Zlatan did. They didn't miss Zlatan's output but the extraordinary output Cavani had been producing from out wide.

At Napoli he had a very low conversion rate and averaged taking 9-10 penos each season.

a comparison with Higuain at the time:

That was his best year in Italy and that league at the time was hardly in flying colors. He took one of the highest shots/game ratios and had one of the lowest efficiency ratings compared to other goalscorers across Europe. His shot accuracy wasn't the best either.

So yeah, his style was taking a lot of shots, and his conversion rate isn't the best, which is what I was saying. On top of that like 90% of the big games I've watched him during his best, he was underperforming - that's my personal opinion.

What I read there is his mins per goal ratio is better. Everything is else you can read in various different ways.

1) It's clear there Cavani was a starter all season, big games and fodder games. Higuaín wasn't so very likely he missed "hard" games and gets the bump from filling his boots against fodder.
2) Higuaín having two shots per game may be an indication of not getting into goalscoring positions as much. Two fecking shots all game? Seriously?
3) Shot accuracy can easily be affected by trying more difficult shots, which wouldn't surprise me if Pipita is only shooting twice a game. Same goes for conversion.
4) Goal contribution indicates Cavani was the key danger man and therefore would have faced more attention, closer marking, more blocked shots, more shooting under pressure...

So Cavani played more difficult/tight games, under more scrutiny and pressure from defenders, yet still managed to find himself into goalscoring positions more often and wound up scoring more goals per minute. He pisses all over Higuaín, basically.

Stats, fecking hell. Next thing we will hear Cristiano is terrible upfront because he takes too many shots. He does indeed, is a bit greedy (that's why I pointed out both Lavezzi and Hamsik carried on scoring at the same rate), but the guy racks up the goals, no two ways about it.

 

[Enigma_87]

To be fair that looks like an exceptionally deadly campaign for Higuain, rather than Cavani being a wastly outlier. When I looked at those metrics a few years ago, most of the best strikers were scoring somewhere in the region of 1 out of every 4-5 shots. Occasionally somebody would burst the trend, like Pedro in his breakout season who averaged 1 in 2, and at the other side you had greedy types like Cristiano needing 6-7 shots.

2020/21 conversation rate, for example

Cristiano 16,2 (he gets more & more wasteful every season with shots from every position)
Messi 18,1
Mbappé 20,7
Lewa 23,1

18,6 is not a bad rate, especially if you're not playing for a truly top team — Higuain's numbers are quite insane, but you have to count 1. the amount of sub appearances which usually increase those kind of rates as it's easier for a great striker to score against tired defences 2. the amount of clear cut chances that he gets. Also, Real absolutely dominated La Liga that season and that team had an insane amount of creativity in Özil, Di Maria, Modrić, Alonso (and even Cristiano still contributing in that regard).

There are many strikers in each respective league that pump in conversion rate 20% and above season after season, and even Lukaku (who is often cited as oaf) is one of them, just as an example. Strikers like Icardi posted 30% conversion rate and 3.1 shots per game in 17/18.

Same year for example - 17/18 in Serie A, only Milik had 4.7 shots per game from all the strikers in serie A and had a conversion rate of 22%.

Very rare you would see 4.6 shots per game for a striker, unless the whole team revolves around the star of the team and he gets the major share of the chances, gets to put more shots in and rack up the numbers. In the case of Cristiano for example.

The average of Serie A strikers during the last 10 years for example is around 3, 3 and something per game for those who played more than 500 minutes per season.

That also doesn't factor in the amount of times he lost balance in the box, flapped around or was faster than the ball - something that happens to him quite often due to his movement and energy.

The amount of clear cut chances is also in Cavani's favor and he scores a lot of tap ins - visible also from that season - 21 out of 29 goals.
and if you want to see his conversion rate, there you go:

Couple of excerpts from 2014.

Despite a disappointing World Cup in front of goal, in which he scored just once in four matches, he has shown an encouraging return to form with Paris Saint-Germain.

After opening his account for the season against Bastia in the second round of Ligue 1 fixtures, he found the net a further three times before the end of September.

It was at this time that strike partner Zlatan Ibrahimovic went down with an injury, and Cavani's form fell away, with the former Napoli man going four games without a goal.

But since scoring, and subsequently being sent off for his gunshot celebration against Lens on October 17, he has found the net in of his last five outings, including winning goals in both Champions League matches against APOEL Nicosia.

But the Cavani complex is a strange one. Thursday's clash highlghted his tendency to miss clear-cut chances almost every game, only to put away a tougher opening later on. He has scored six goals in Ligue 1 this season, but of the 11 players to have scored more than five times he has the worst shot conversion rate - 15.79%.

Despite Ibrahimovic remaining the lead striker in the French capital, Cavani's importance to Les Parisiens cannot be understated. Though the Ligue 1 outfit are always on the look-out for additional attacking talent, at present it would take a mammoth offer to prise the Uruguayan away from Parc des Princes.

When it comes in terms of low level when it rains for him it really pours.


Performances like this really are the cream of the crop. Probably the most terrible performance from a striker I've seen.

And it's not just an off game. Youtube is literally full of him missing clear cut chances:

and the one against Arsenal for example when he air shot that chance doesn't even count in the shot/conversion rate stats.


He's one of the most frustrating strikers to watch, the only one that I can relate him to in modern times is Morata.

 

[antohan]

It's not really the role of De Rossi. He was caf's darling a long time ago and everyone wanted him when he first shone at Roma. To me - I've never been a fan. It's not a question of fit, but rather quality. He didn't reach the heights and his full potential and to me he was living on past glory for season after season in 10-20 decade where he was average to shit for Roma, who also under performed at times.

But I'm picking the past glory mate, not the washed up version

No question of fit, but when he faces Schweinsteiger and Vieira at the other end he will get walkovered and is a liability in the middle of the park.

This will never cease to amaze me. Schweinsteiger will walk over De Rossi? Is this wrestling or football? Who cares about Vieira? He is on the other side, none of his business really.

He has the mentality but to me was more of a huff and puff and not backed with quality. That's my take on it I know a lot rate him, but I just don't.

Fair enough. I don't rate him at any sort of spectacularly high level or anything of the sort, just think he does all the basics I need right including being able to pick a pass, even if not a primary playmaker.

In fairness, had I not had to cover for the eventuality of a Sammer injury and DM dropping into defence, I would have 100% picked Cambiasso. That was the main reason I flagged early on that @Jim Beam was running up missed picks. It did my head in thinking Cambiasso would be an obvious target of his, felt bad about picking him and, even if I didn't, I knew if I picked De Rossi a few DMs would fly off the shelves.

I don't see a problem with him here though, not at all.

Again, personal opinion, I know you will disagree He gets into an awful lot of chances and finishes 1-2 in 10. I've posted stats from his best season in Italy he was even worse in that sense for PSG. It's again my observation both in CL and in France, he's one of the most frustrating forwards to watch. Great movement, great mentality and stamina, but can't be relied upon when the chips are down. He has his flashes of brilliance but was never in the top forwards category to me.

For example Torres was one - his decline was much worse but at his peak he was feared by most of the defenders and he had the tools to decide any game. I have never had the same feeling with Cavani. He would either miss an easy chance, then score a tap in, then score a worldie from outside the box, then fall flat on his arse 5-6 times in good positions. He was like the upgraded version of Welbeck and to me always lacked the consistency.

Answered elsewhere.

I've always rated him very highly and have firmly had him, not Suárez, down as Uruguay's most important forward since Luis lost his mind in 2014 and got suspended for ages (Forlán retiring in the meantime). Cavani never looks lost or underperforms without Suárez, while Suárez without Cavani was hopeless and easy to strike out of a game.


Completed his brace there, then injured minutes later. I had everything arranged to go to Russia for the France game, cancelled it all the moment the injury was confirmed

Upgraded Welbeck, FFS

 

[Enigma_87]

So you are assessing a guy who is shunted out wide for three season on the trot as a striker based on him not instantly hitting top form on the rare occasions the main striker was injured?

You should assess him on how he did once Zlatan left and he got an entire season as the starting striker. He scored as much as Zlatan did. They didn't miss Zlatan's output but the extraordinary output Cavani had been producing from out wide.

I rate consistency and able to produce year after year. That's the hallmark of a top class striker. The biggest issue with him is consistency and how frustrating he is. I just don't rate those strikers as such - same example with Morata. They can't be relied upon.

What I read there is his mins per goal ratio is better. Everything is else you can read in various different ways.

1) It's clear there Cavani was a starter all season, big games and fodder games. Higuaín wasn't so very likely he missed "hard" games and gets the bump from filling his boots against fodder.
2) Higuaín having two shots per game may be an indication of not getting into goalscoring positions as much. Two fecking shots all game? Seriously?
3) Shot accuracy can easily be affected by trying more difficult shots, which wouldn't surprise me if Pipita is only shooting twice a game. Same goes for conversion.
4) Goal contribution indicates Cavani was the key danger man and therefore would have faced more attention, closer marking, more blocked shots, more shooting under pressure...

So Cavani played more difficult/tight games, under more scrutiny and pressure from defenders, yet still managed to find himself into goalscoring positions more often and wound up scoring more goals per minute. He pisses all over Higuaín, basically.

Stats, fecking hell. Next thing we will hear Cristiano is terrible upfront because he takes too many shots. He does indeed, is a bit greedy (that's why I pointed out both Lavezzi and Hamsik carried on scoring at the same rate), but the guy racks up the goals, no two ways about it.

1. He had a very poor input against the other top sides that were in the top 5 that season (Juve, Milan, Fiorentina, Udinese). He scored 1 in 10 games.
2. Most strikers get between 2.5/3.5 shots per game who are not the main figure in a dominant side. 4.6 and above is really a lot and exception of the rule.
3. He has the history of missing the most clear cut chances compared to any other striker in Europe - the screen above - 37 in a single season, so that argument flies out of the window.
4. Same #3 really. And no, his movement suggests he takes off his marker pretty quick and has more pockets of space compared to the less mobile strikers that attempt harder shots. One of his isues is also his balance when at full pelt as he doesn't time his steps/shots in the final phase and often produces some acrobatic air balls.

When Higuain moved to Juve, racked up few pounds and his conversion rate dropped to 16/18% everyone was on his back and mocked him over missing chance over chance.

La Liga during the time was the better league too as Inter were in downward spiral, Roma were also shit and the top teams were Napoli and Juve, Milan produced some flashes of brilliance here and there.

 

[antohan]

Anyhow, this is pretty much dead in the water. May as well share how I would have lined up in most other games, fecking Kaká the stupid cnut.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Have to agree with Enigma on Cavani. It's hard for me to think of international class striker who I've seen miss so many clear cut chances. I would not trust him in a game such as this at all. Still undecided because of Isotope's back 4 but feel Iso's attack and midfield looks impossible to keep out of the net a few times.

 

[Synco]

Midfield isn't suffering Luis Enrique's absence unless you let me play with 12 men. If you ask ME, I think he can pull off the job De Rossi has and bring even more to the table. But then, that's ME, when everything indicates that where I see Keano with goals most of you guys see John O'Shea with (more) goals. The only appreciation he ever seems to get (flexible, versatile, basically, bloody useful in drafts) sounds more like a backhanded compliment to me. And of course it doesn't matter where you play him or under which instructions that someone will claim he was better playing elsewhere, yadda yadda.

Just thought what he'd have brought to the table was somewhat missing from the mix: a more natural offensive CM & goal threat from midfield. (I guess pre-libero midfield Sammer might have been such an element as well?)

But yeah, Enrique is probably a good candidate for a publicity boost, Sjor has already made a beginning.

 

[Synco]

At Napoli he had a very low conversion rate and averaged taking 9-10 penos each season.

a comparison with Higuain at the time:

That was his best year in Italy and that league at the time was hardly in flying colors. He took one of the highest shots/game ratios and had one of the lowest efficiency ratings compared to other goalscorers across Europe. His shot accuracy wasn't the best either.

So yeah, his style was taking a lot of shots, and his conversion rate isn't the best, which is what I was saying. On top of that like 90% of the big games I've watched him during his best, he was underperforming - that's my personal opinion.

2020/21 conversation rate, for example

Cristiano 16,2 (he gets more & more wasteful every season with shots from every position)
Messi 18,1
Mbappé 20,7
Lewa 23,1

18,6 is not a bad rate, especially if you're not playing for a truly top team — Higuain's numbers are quite insane, but you have to count 1. the amount of sub appearances which usually increase those kind of rates as it's easier for a great striker to score against tired defences 2. the amount of clear cut chances that he gets. Also, Real absolutely dominated La Liga that season and that team had an insane amount of creativity in Özil, Di Maria, Modrić, Alonso (and even Cristiano still contributing in that regard).

Time for another dose of Synco's random & unasked-for Gerd Müller facts:

In 47 of the games on Footballia (almost all of the competitive ones, mostly friendlies missing), Müller had a conversion rate of 27%. Averaging almost exactly a goal a game on ~3,5 shots per 90.

 

[Isotope]

I really hoped anto would bin De Rossi. One of the players I don't really rate and there's another one in the lineup that can join that conversation in Cavani. Whenever I watched him he hasn't impressed me at all. His best ability is of course getting into position and his fantastic movement, which is indeed world class, but he needs to play in a dominant team that would get 8-9 opportunities in a game.

At the time I rated Di Natale more during that timeframe and I'm positive no one would pick him even in a restricted draft.

On the other side I don't rate Montero - he's a hot head with weaknesses in the game who was often a liability. Helguera also is probably not the best fit especially when you look at the opposition and who he faces.

I'm giving it to Iso on the basis of the quality spread in the rest of his team and I can see him outscoring the opposition most of the cases.

I was hesitating to argue about Cavani. I love the guy so much now.

I don't have data to back me up, as his goals number was through the roof with Napoli. But the general feeling when he was at Napoli was he's a flop at CL, and wasn't doing that great with NT either. But then, maybe I was thinking about someone else. @antohan

 

[antohan]

Wow, I managed to get @Theon to vote against a side with Pirlo in it, that's some claim to fame

 

[Enigma_87]

Time for another dose of Synco's random & unasked-for Gerd Müller facts:

In 47 of the games on Footballia (almost all of the competitive ones, mostly friendlies missing), Müller had a conversion rate of 27%. Averaging almost exactly a goal a game on ~3,5 shots per game.

A trully fantastic player. Loved the big occasion too.

I was hesitating to argue about Cavani. I love the guy so much now.

I don't have data to back me up, as his goals number was through the roof with Napoli. But the general feeling when he was at Napoli was he's a flop at CL, and wasn't doing that great with NT either. But then, maybe I was thinking about someone else. @antohan

He's likeable fellow, but really, really frustrating. He managed to make a great career IMO and achieved as much as he could.

For Uruguay I watched him in Copa games, and again was frustrating in most of those, but for PSG, really takes the top.

If the one screen from the 16/17 season is not enough, he continued with the same form in 17/18.

He's just that frustrating.

 

[Enigma_87]

Anyhow, this is pretty much dead in the water. May as well share how I would have lined up in most other games, fecking Kaká the stupid cnut.

That one I like a lot lot better (even with De Rossi in it ). I can of course understand why you didn't go for it (Kaka).

 

[antohan]

I was hesitating to argue about Cavani. I love the guy so much now.

I don't have data to back me up, as his goals number was through the roof with Napoli. But the general feeling when he was at Napoli was he's a flop at CL, and wasn't doing that great with NT either. But then, maybe I was thinking about someone else. @antohan

He actually scored three goals in two games against City in the CL, same season as Agüeroooooooo Posted a clip of that in the main thread (only after Kompany got picked as he featured quite a lot and I didn't want anyone's blood pressure compromised).

Re NT, I don't care much for what people may say seeing as most people on the caf seem to have discovered his workrate and contribution all over the pitch only this season. It's not just about goals, a team like ours needs -and we highly value- him making clearances from corners, or chasing players all the way back into the box. As I said before, he was our most important player way before Suárez turned to shit.

I knew what I was getting into picking him. Still think the trio works better and, ultimately, it's the unit I wanted to make work to their best level.

 

[Isotope]

A trully fantastic player. Loved the big occasion too.



He's likeable fellow, but really, really frustrating. He managed to make a great career IMO and achieved as much as he could.

For Uruguay I watched him in Copa games, and again was frustrating in most of those, but for PSG, really takes the top.

If the one screen from the 16/17 season is not enough, he continued with the same form in 17/18.

He's just that frustrating.

Thanks. I wasn't really paying attention of Cavani at PSG. Also usually watched Uruguay just to see Forlan, then lost interest since he retired.

But seeing how he fares so far at United, at his age, it's one of those seven wonders of why not much interest on a younger Cavani.

 

[Demyanenko_square_jaw]

the discussion on Cavani's finishing inspired me to have a look at his goals each season on transfermarkt when removing penalties, to get a better idea of how prolific in open play he was.

He doesn't come out of it too badly at all. Taking away penalties his Napoli league stats are... 35-21/35-20/34-22....PSG are 30-14/35-15/32-19/36-28/32-25/21-14/14-3

In European competition the most penalties in a season were 2 during the 2012/13 Europa League, so the vast majority from open play.

7 penalties for Uruguay

I just quickly noted it all down so there might be a couple of mistakes there, but overall it's a strong steady goalscoring record regardless if it was gained through other attributes rather than great shooting precision. I wouldn't put him in the same category as someone like Morata at club level.

 

[antohan]

Congrats @Isotope

I stand by everything I said about the backline, you've got lots of work to do there. Ciro being back will instantly improve it, but you need another keeper and a leftback.

Did anyone watch the Busquets clip? I randomly bumped into it and couldn't stop laughing, didn't remember him being so utterly hopeless. The lengths some managers will go to for fancy footwork in a keeper.... and half the clip he is passing it to opposing strikers The tactical issue stands but christ on a bike...

On a separate note now it's not game-related... what's the deal with Raúl? I love Del Piero but can't wrap my head around the significant order of magnitude in how much higher he is rated. It's fecking Raúl! Is it just a visceral dislike for all things Madrid and their circus shit?

 

[Isotope]

Thanks @antohan

You are like Cavani, mate. Warrior on the pitch, a gentleman out of it .

Anyway. Thanks for the suggestions. It's good to have good feedbacks (as some were taken from R-1 also). So you don't fancy bergomi? He was only 28 in 1992. Arguably the peak age for any good CB (unless they're injured a lot, which Bergomi wasn't). Still top CB in the 90's. When you see, he's still pretty good in 1998 WC.

 

[Isotope]

Special thank you to @Joga Bonito for some tactic suggestions before the game. He didn't vote here, so it's all good.

 

[harms]

Time for another dose of Synco's random & unasked-for Gerd Müller facts:

In 47 of the games on Footballia (almost all of the competitive ones, mostly friendlies missing), Müller had a conversion rate of 27%. Averaging almost exactly a goal a game on ~3,5 shots per 90.

Did you count that
Nice.

 

[Synco]

Did you count that
Nice.

I did full opta-style stats for these games. But I'd need to review all games, because I know more about statkeeping now & would count them differently to roughly match opta criteria. So that "project" got nowhere

But I revisited the Liverpool '71 game (Müller as DM) last year, because Joga did a match comp. So stats are more or less accurate, you can find them here, plus some background info. Discussion continues in posts #577 to #580.

 

[antohan]

Thanks @antohan

You are like Cavani, mate. Warrior on the pitch, a gentleman out of it .

Anyway. Thanks for the suggestions. It's good to have good feedbacks (as some were taken from R-1 also). So you don't fancy bergomi? He was only 28 in 1992. Arguably the peak age for any good CB (unless they're injured a lot, which Bergomi wasn't). Still top CB in the 90's. When you see, he's still pretty good in 1998 WC.

I had Bergomi in my list as a great backup, but would have never planned to start him myself.

Firstly there's a personal thing that, whatever people say or state as peaks, it's ultimately the peak player that has left the most clear impression in people's minds. I just don't fancy that grey area at all so actively avoided most cross-over situations. You could say I strayed from that with Cavani, but I already had Crespo and the only rationale behind playing Cavani would be injury or, like here, a more intangible/nuanced quality that by and large doesn't make up for the hassle, just a conviction thing but never an advantage.

Second, Bergomi doesn't belong in this era. He is actually a poster boy for the frictioned transition from the previous one to this one. The only drafted side I could buy sporting him at CB was @Jim Beam 's, precisely because in Mourinho's Inter it was a throwback to Bergomi's era. If you had him as a sweeper, as he was later on (not your stated peak) then it's more reasonable, with the right pair of CBs, but you are never going to play with a sweeper, are you?

I just don't buy deploying people in setups that run counter to their instincts. I mentioned decision-making being best left to the players earlier, that sure doesn't apply if their instincts are all fecking wrong for the setup

Never got around to posting more car crash footage re Zubizarreta. There's one incident (pre backpass rule but already in Cruyff rondo bullying era) when he chases a ball which winds up rolling out of the box, he clumsily controls it, a Barca player comes short but with a rival breathing down his neck, Zubi loses his shit and blasts it out for a corner

Wasn't fair on him really, in his prime few keepers could trap a ball like him (his most distinctive quality IMO, he wouldn't ever spill a ball, not in a million years) and he commanded his area and rushed out with conviction. That completely changed in 1992, he started second-guessing himself whether to commit or not, pretty much lost a yard in closing down/making himself big in one on ones, which made a world of a difference really. Then losing agility/reflexes started compounding that further. It's essentially the anti-peak

 

[antohan]

Special thank you to @Joga Bonito for some tactic suggestions before the game. He didn't vote here, so it's all good.

Et tu @Joga Bonito ?

 

[Joga Bonito]

Et tu @Joga Bonito ?

. Barely said anything in all fairness, his tactics were pretty straightforward. Nonetheless, decided to refrain from voting.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Why Cavani and not Crespo? It’s not just about drive and the spunk needed when Bergomi and Montero will kick you to pieces. He was also scoring 30+ goals a season in a 3-4-3 with wingbacks and his movement with Lavezzi/Hamsik either side of him made them unplayable at times. Imagine that being Raúl and Rooney. I don’t want a static striker they service, I want those three working the channels, interchanging, dragging defenders all over the place and any one of them providing the assist or finishing the move from anywhere inside or outside the box. While Crespo’s scoring record was similar but against tougher defences, what Cavani has on him is that he will make that trio more fluid and unpredictable.

I think this has been lost amidst all that discussion on Cavani's finishing. He was prone to missing the odd sitter but what he brings to the table is elevating the trio and making them more fluid and unpredictable. Don't think anyone in their right mind would rate Cavani, as an individual, ahead of Crespo but I can definitely buy what Anto was going for. Esp against Iso's relatively static yet quality defense, with Ferrara missing that is.

 

[harms]

If you had him as a sweeper, as he was later on (not your stated peak) then it's more reasonable, with the right pair of CBs, but you are never going to play with a sweeper, are you?

It’s a random bit of info, but Bergomi started out as a sweeper in their 1985 game against Köln (with G. Baresi as an expansive attacking right back... ridiculous) before Ferri literally kicked someone’s ass, get sent off and they’ve put on another sweeper, pushing Bergomi forward into back three.

 

[antohan]

I think this has been lost amidst all that discussion on Cavani's finishing. He was prone to missing the odd sitter but what he brings to the table is elevating the trio and making them more fluid and unpredictable. Don't think anyone in their right mind would rate Cavani, as an individual, ahead of Crespo but I can definitely buy what Anto was going for. Esp against Iso's relatively static yet quality defense, with Ferrara missing that is.

Thanks mate, I knew it would get lost in classic data stuff and opinions on peak.

There was no real upside and if anything it doesn't help big up Crespo, who (at peak) is woefully underrated. But hey, if you are going down, go down playing how you mean to.

 

[Enigma_87]

I think this has been lost amidst all that discussion on Cavani's finishing. He was prone to missing the odd sitter but what he brings to the table is elevating the trio and making them more fluid and unpredictable. Don't think anyone in their right mind would rate Cavani, as an individual, ahead of Crespo but I can definitely buy what Anto was going for. Esp against Iso's relatively static yet quality defense, with Ferrara missing that is.

Why do you think that, mate? Crespo is basically what Morientes brings to the table and more. He has the same physical presence, threat in the air and great reflexes inside the opposition box. Raul loved playing alongside such strike partners and with Rooney and Raul behind do you really need another striker that brings the same energy that basically Raul and Rooney do?

To me Crespo is better fit to Rooney and Raul than Cavani, even if we discount his individual ineffectiveness in front of goal. His off the ball movement is also top notch and can't recall if it was exactly Helguera(or Hierro video is a bit shite) that he sent flying in the CL.