Nostalgia Draft R1: Antohan vs Enigma

[Physiocrat]

Antohan

Enigma

Antohan Tactics

TEAM ANTOHAN

Underlying philosophy

The era in question could be summarised as “the coronation of the attacking fullback”. In a nutshell, it made no sense to have four players out on the flanks when you could get roughly the same impact with two. Instead, you got two more players to place through the middle, down the spine, be it to shore up the defence, to outnumber the opposition in the midfield battle or adding firepower. Bottomline is: the goal is in the middle, either team scores inside the box or from range from outside the box, but hardly ever do it from the flank. Width, stretching defences, dangerous crosses... the fullback can still deliver on that and nothing stops a "central" player drifting wide in support. Cue 3-5-2/5-3-2, 4-4-2 Diamond and, largely post 2012, the 4-3-3/4-2-3-1 with inverted wingers.

Default tactics and style

Direct, vertical, fast and furious, no faffing about with the ball.

Spoiler: Illustration of what this means

In line with that pair of legends owning their respective flanks, the spine works like a spring, it can recoil into defensive mode and then spring into all-out attack effortlessly with all players specifically selected with that in mind.

While from a first take the default teamsheet may look defensive, we actually push the game up the pitch. De Rossi isn’t doing a Makelele job, he is part of a three-man midfield that will transition to attacking phase except when, upon recovery, Sammer goes on an errand. In that case De Rossi has his back and stays in the holding/screening pattern Sammer would otherwise adopt. Balakov and Luis Enrique fly up and down the pitch all game as much as the fullbacks do.

Spoiler: This is what things actually look like when I’m on the front foot

Player profiles and peak: Link

Subs: Óscar Córdoba, Manuel Sanchís, Edinson Cavani

Injured: Raúl

In-game management scenarios

One point Ole has driven home as our manager is the importance of in-game management, or sucking at it. You start the game, you have a plan, then for some reason things go tits up and you have to tweak the plan:

• Injuries or off game:
  • GK: Córdoba for Pagliuca
  • DEF: Sanchís for any of the back three (fullbacks are on Dr. Segura Pep Shakes, indestructible)
  • MID: Sanchís with Sammer moving up to midfield if De Rossi or Lucho, Cavani with Zola dropping into midfield if Balakov (Cavani also doing a fair amount of defensive heavy-lifting)
  • ATT: Cavani for either of the front two
• Say you don’t feel the need for three in midfield but instead need to shut out a DLP, switch to something more akin to a diamond

Spoiler

• A variant on that if you need more sustained pressing upfront

Spoiler

• Protect a lead with minutes to go

Spoiler

• Throw the kitchen sink at them

Spoiler

• Kitchen sink worked, now need to manage the game and see it out => regroup into a diamond

Spoiler

I'd be happy to see that side walk out into a final, more so if Raúl were available. Sure, can upgrade/embellish someone here or there, but they could give anyone a good competitive game even after five rounds of reinforcements.

As usual with my teams, most of them are natural leaders that captained club and/or country. They will fight for every ball over every inch of the pitch and, more often than not, that's what makes you win.

Enigma Tactics

Formation: 4-2-3-1 (duh)
Style: Build around Ronnie, fluid, direct

Defence:
Angelo Peruzzi (95-98), holds fort in the form of his life when he won everything possible at club level with Juve and individually won Guerin d'Oro, 2 times was Serie A goalkeeper of the year in very stiff competition and 2 times in ESM team of the year. Ahead of him we have 2 full backs who are renown in their ability to contribute in both phases of the game and be defensively solid not to create openings for the opposition - United's legend Denis Irwin (92-95) and Jocelyn Angloma (98-01) who was a cornerstone in Valencia 2 CL runs to the finals, making it to ESM team of the year as well. In heart of the defence we have Brazilian legend Aldair (94-97) who won WC and Copa America in the period, who possesses a great anticipation, skill on the ball and strength in challenge. Next to him is Paul McGrath (92-95), who in his Villa period managed 2nd place and became a club legend with some mighty fine displays, on top of brilliant WC performance in 94 for Ireland, especially against Baggio's led Italy. Our defence is very comfortable on the ball, has the ability to take the ball out with ease, whilst being very versatile and strong both in the air and on the deck.

Midfield:
Cream of the crop pairing Edgar Davids (97-00) who is box to box defensive monster in his peak and needs little to no introduction. Besides him is Bastian Schweinsteiger (09-12) who under LvG became a proper midfield general and one of the very best in the world in his position. Just ahead is Bernd Scheider (99-02) - the white Pel... Brazilian, who fits the team style brilliantly and is a proper Deco replacement - great on the ball, creative (Champions League top assist provider: 2001–02 in the period), has a whip on him and is a goal threat in the middle on top of an excellent team player that is versatile enough to play either wing or through the middle.

Attack:
Ronaldinho (04-07) is the star of the show - and as mentioned earlier his peak was incredible and good as any in the time period. One of the very best in history and one that also needs no introduction - the epitome of Joga Bonito. On the right we have David Villa (07-10) in his Valencia peak form when he also became one of the greatest Spanish players wining WC and EURO's in the period. Up front is Davor Suker (95-98) - elegant top of the line striker that can interchange with Villa and his elegant style fits our team spirit to a tee.

 

[antohan]

@Physiocrat that's not my team!

 

[Physiocrat]

@antohan @Enigma_87

Game on!

@harms @Invictus

Could you please add a poll? I cleared my cache but it gives me oops again

 

[Physiocrat]

@Physiocrat that's not my team!

Sorted. Lots of annoying tech issues arose in the creation of this thread

 

[antohan]

@Enigma_87 you have some chap called David Suker playing upfront.

Never heard of him.

 

[Physiocrat]

@Enigma_87 you have some chap called David Suker playing upfront.

Never heard of him.

 

[Enigma_87]

@Enigma_87 you have some chap called David Suker playing upfront.

Never heard of him.

As I've said in the write up a strike due that can interchange

Good luck to you mate and thanks for setting it up @Physiocrat !

BTW that B team that was put up initially looked great

 

[antohan]

Those midfields

Can imagine Sky promoting the game with some Nike ad type thing with them walking into the Roman Colisseum.

De Rossi would look top boss with his beard. Even from a nationality/racial perspective it's exactly the sort of casting you would do for Spartacus as a mixed bunch from across the Roman Empire.

 

[antohan]

As I've said in the write up a strike due that can interchange

Good luck to you mate and thanks for setting it up @Physiocrat !

BTW that B team that was put up initially looked great

Damn @Physiocrat for not having the poll on already, would have stormed into a lead despite the excessive use of rightbacks.

Have a good one mate. It's a good side you put together and would be a great game to watch.

 

[Enigma_87]

Damn @Physiocrat for not having the poll on already, would have stormed into a lead despite the excessive use of rightbacks.

Have a good one mate. It's a good side you put together and would be a great game to watch.

Yeah, definitely. Was looking to build a fun side to watch as soon as I got my hands on Ronnie.

and at the end "The white Brazilian" ended up in the first team - one of my favs from that era, although probably a bit underrated:

 

[antohan]

A few words on my two men upfront.

Firstly, they both played their best football under the same setup during their peaks.

UEFA Cup Final 1995 - Won

UEFA Cup Final 1999 - Won
Note: Vanoli and Fuser were wingbacks, not wingers. Cannavaro clearly wasn't playing leftback.

Now as far as Crespo is concerned, he has never been particularly rated in drafts.

He was unlucky to emerge under Batistuta's shadow so was -rightly- his sub at the 1998 World Cup and -wrongly- at the 2002 World Cup. However, he still does have as good a record over the measly 400 or so minutes he was afforded at World Cups (far better than Messi's) and the best record in World Cup qualifiers by a distance. Until recently, he was the all time top scorer in Conmebol WCQ with 19 goals in 32 games. He has now been surpassed by Suárez (25) and Messi (23), except they both played more than 50 qualifiers.

It's a shame injuries took their toll so from 2002 or so and for most of his career, he looked as useful as in 1998, i.e. a rather static but deadly poacher/fox-in-the-box. In between though, he was sensational, or else he wouldn't have been the world's most expensive transfer. This is not some fancy Brazilian dribbler plucked after some exciting international displays, he was playing in Serie A week in, week out, and there was no question he warranted the investment.

Have a look below at his Serie A goals in 1998-99 and 1999-00, the difference in the way his all-round play progressed from one season to the next is noticeable. That 99-00 and 00-01 player, the one spear-heading the best Argentinian side I've seen in my lifetime, is not the one we later saw club-hopping across Milan teams or at Chelsea. Assessing Crespo on that basis is like assessing Sheva on his Chelsea form.

You get a similar one-dimensional feel if you look at his WCQ goals leading to 1998 and 2006, but not 2002 (not that he ever lost the knack for poaching, which ain't a bad thing at all)

Anyhow, the point is I get the impression everyone's perception of Crespo is warped by not having observed how special he was in between those two World Cups.

 

[antohan]

Yeah, definitely. Was looking to build a fun side to watch as soon as I got my hands on Ronnie.

and at the end "The white Brazilian" ended up in the first team - one of my favs from that era, although probably a bit underrated:

To be honest, as I said before, I did mull over picking him for a while. Some lop-sided thing with Lucho on the left if I missed out on Balakov (originally had Hässler in mind for that option, but he went very early). I looked up whether there was any good stuff on him and found that clip. It's dogshit really. If anyone wants to know more about Schneider they'd better ignore a clip with a bunch of free kicks.

 

[antohan]

Where's @Chesterlestreet these days? I recall him once wondering why nobody had ever tried playing three box-to-box midfielders

Insanely difficult to pull a team like that off in real life, need the B2Bs, the fullbacks, the backline, the forwards... but in a draft?

 

[TheReligion]

@antohan what are your defensive tactics.

I'm interested in Sammer as a sweeper as the position has become redundant these days. I also wonder if @Enigma_87 would look at targeting this as a vulnerability.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Anto's got some players I like that I probably rate higher than the draft average in Crespo and De Rossi and who can not love a Carlos-Zanetti flank pairing. Enigma though has a devilish midfield supporting 'dinho. Leaning towards Sammer being the x-factor here.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

anto team looks perfect on paper even though i dont really rate some individuals as highly as others. Enigma team is lovely as well but Suker ruins it for me, Villa up front, Schneider on the right and someone else in the hole would make this team much better. Though even with this team you can see danger in it, Dinho would tore Puyol a new one, midfield is great(even though Schweini is missing a season that made him a GOAT tier midfielder) etc.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Where's @Chesterlestreet these days? I recall him once wondering why nobody had ever tried playing three box-to-box midfielders

Hah! Yeah, I remember that - and I still think it's a more than plausible option in a draft/fantasy context.

Granted, what I had in mind was something insane in terms of individual quality. Like Lothar, Lothar and Lothar, ideally.

But yeah, absolutely - I'm all for it as a concept.

 

[antohan]

@antohan what are your defensive tactics.

I'm interested in Sammer as a sweeper as the position has become redundant these days. I also wonder if @Enigma_87 would look at targeting this as a vulnerability.

Positions blow hot and cold over the years, ten years ago you couldn't play a draft without wingers, then without possession, then without gegenpressing, false 9s were the dog's bollocks, then people ridiscover what a centreforward actually looks like...

Fads aside, we have to draw a line on where this is an exercise you can contrast with reality and where it isn't. Assembling either of these XIs today would require more than a billion in investment and even then you wouldn't find the equivalent peak quality even being available.

Which brings me to the point: I play Sammer at libero because I could get my hands on Matthias feckin' Sammer. He is positional GOAT material and if there were a Matthias Sammer out there today. If you have Zanetti and Roberto Carlos and want to get the most out of them you want to completely unshackle them. You don't do that putting together any random back three, we all know how feckin' bad it can get when a hipster manager arrives in the PL and assembles a random back three with chaps that have no idea what they are playing at. That's why both CBs are also competent former fullbacks.

Now, I don't expect Sammer to spend much time "sweeping up" behind them, which is why I call it libero (we had this discussion years ago and everyone had a different view on it, mind). I actually expect to spend much of the game on the front foot simply because I have too much oomph on the flank and also through the middle. When you have Balakov, Luis Enrique, De Rossi and Sammer as your spine, there's no amount of effort from Davids and Schweinsteiger that is going to stop them getting overrun. Schneider will help out a bit yeah, but they are getting overrun anyway.

So Sammer actually spends much of his time in front of the CB, the same way a DM would, acting as a shield, breaking up any recovery/intercepting stray balls, and dropping back as cover for Puyol/Chiellini if they have to go wide to deal with danger after a turnover.

Again, the main difference here is it is Matthias Sammer so, as mentioned, sometimes when we recover the ball he will be in a prime position to charge forward... So be it, as mentioned in the OP, De Rossi can cover his back in those cases. He also has great distribution. He also is a top class defender and midfielder. Why on earth would I think about doing anything but play Sammer if I can get my hands on him?

Which brings me to sweepers that are NOT Sammer. During sustained periods of attack/possession from the opposition, someone like Sanchís can do the job, the sweeping/defending one. The more advanced/DM/distribution part? Nah, nowhere near at the same level. Say I had Hierro instead, he could do that, but I would be somewhat worried about his recovery pace. So no, if Sammer got injured it's most likely I would just play a diamond with De Rossi, Balakov-Lucho and Zola and stick Cavani upfront. Unless I'm already ahead and just trying to see out the game, I wouldn't just stick a sweeper there but instead have De Rossi holding and dropping back into a three (which he is more than competent enough to do!!!!).

 

[antohan]

anto team looks perfect on paper even though i dont really rate some individuals as highly as others. Enigma team is lovely as well but Suker ruins it for me, Villa up front, Schneider on the right and someone else in the hole would make this team much better.

Agree, particularly with the guy in the hole being the injured Deco. Strangely though, it seems @Enigma_87 would have gone for the same but with Deco for Schneider. I don't really understand this fascination with playing Villa out wide. Sure, that was called for with Messi as a false 9, but Schneider would do a better job than Villa out wide and Villa a better one than Suker through the middle.

I sense I rate Suker higher than you, but still a no-brainer had Deco been available.

Though even with this team you can see danger in it, Dinho would tore Puyol a new one,

Any defender dealing with Ronaldinho has his work cut out. Puyol has two advantages here: 1) Zanetti and Sammer close by, 2) he trained with Goofy every day, every week, throughout his peak. He will know the do's and dont's and that alone is a significant asset to avoid getting destroyed.

midfield is great(even though Schweini is missing a season that made him a GOAT tier midfielder) etc.

He was still a top player, but when you've only just started playing in midfield things like this could easily happen:

That's not Balakov, Luis Enrique or De Rossi, it's just an equally determined Diego Pérez.

 

[antohan]

Hah! Yeah, I remember that - and I still think it's a more than plausible option in a draft/fantasy context.

Granted, what I had in mind was something insane in terms of individual quality. Like Lothar, Lothar and Lothar, ideally.

But yeah, absolutely - I'm all for it as a concept.

Well yeah, that won't work in the imaginary world of drafts and concurrent peaks either

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Agree, particularly with the guy in the hole being the injured Deco. Strangely though, it seems @Enigma_87 would have gone for the same but with Deco for Schneider. I don't really understand this fascination with playing Villa out wide. Sure, that was called for with Messi as a false 9, but Schneider would do a better job than Villa out wide and Villa a better one than Suker through the middle.

I sense I rate Suker higher than you, but still a no-brainer had Deco been available.



Any defender dealing with Ronaldinho has his work cut out. Puyol has two advantages here: 1) Zanetti and Sammer close by, 2) he trained with Goofy every day, every week, throughout his peak. He will know the do's and dont's and that alone is a significant asset to avoid getting destroyed.


He was still a top player, but when you've only just started playing in midfield things like this could easily happen:

That's not Balakov, Luis Enrique or De Rossi, it's just an equally determined Diego Pérez.

Yeah, dont rate Suker. Generally i dont like or rate "donkeys" so in 99% of cases if you dont have technical foundation you are fecked as far im concerned. Didnt know Deco got injured but yeah, could have been the case of Deco just starting instead of Schneider who isnt rated in this parts + enigma likes Suker.

Also correct, any defender can easily look like a mug next to Ronaldinho but in Puyol case that chance just gets higher and higher by every minute as he was struggling against dribblers which is odd as he had a great engine and low center of gravity.

He was but those next 2 years enigma is missing are the ones that propelled him into a Elite Tier midfielder IMO

 

[Enigma_87]

I'm interested in Sammer as a sweeper as the position has become redundant these days. I also wonder if @Enigma_87 would look at targeting this as a vulnerability.

I don't expect Sammer to sweep a lot in this game either, just like anto said, so there will be openings especially considering both Bobby Carlos and Zanetti will bomb forward and we have the wide forward in Villa and Ronaldinho to punish the opposition defence when given the chance.

As already Mentioned I can see Ronaldinho and Villa having the upper hand on Puyol and Chielini when cutting in whilst Suker is a forward that loved to drop deep and generally be involved with the play, hence I picked him, so probably it will be Sammer minding him when we're in possession.

 

[Enigma_87]

anto team looks perfect on paper even though i dont really rate some individuals as highly as others. Enigma team is lovely as well but Suker ruins it for me, Villa up front, Schneider on the right and someone else in the hole would make this team much better. Though even with this team you can see danger in it, Dinho would tore Puyol a new one, midfield is great(even though Schweini is missing a season that made him a GOAT tier midfielder) etc.

I like Suker obviously and IMO he is really underrated in these things. He was one of the most prolific forwards in Spain in the 90's and was a success both at Sevilla and Real and when you also count in his WC form it's a very good peak for a striker that also is a good fit alongside Ronaldinho and Villa.

My intention was to have someone like him to play alongside Villa, whilst obviously Schneider can lean to the right and create width. Villa most likely of course will cut in when we're in possession creating a bit of a 4-4-2.

The main idea whilst picking Suker was to give someone Villa to play alongside and create something like a striking duo, whilst also having someone like Schneider who can cover wide and give us width (as CAF is obsessed with width ) .

 

[Enigma_87]

Now, I don't expect Sammer to spend much time "sweeping up" behind them, which is why I call it libero (we had this discussion years ago and everyone had a different view on it, mind). I actually expect to spend much of the game on the front foot simply because I have too much oomph on the flank and also through the middle. When you have Balakov, Luis Enrique, De Rossi and Sammer as your spine, there's no amount of effort from Davids and Schweinsteiger that is going to stop them getting overrun. Schneider will help out a bit yeah, but they are getting overrun anyway.

I don't believe that one bit, mate. The gulf of quality between Davids and Schweini over De Rossi and Luis Enrique is pretty big IMO. I don't really rate De Rossi one bit, so probably you will disagree, but to me he's really inferior to someone like Davids and will not give you the control of the game. Luis Enrique is a great utility player but I rate him more closer to goal, not in a CM role.

Love Balakov pick and him as a player but he won't give you more steel than Schneider in the middle. He was not a passenger, so he will contribute of course, but he's more of a conductor and not a runner to chase people down.

Obviously you have Sammer to contribute, but having him in the middle opens up spaces for Villa, Dinho and Suker on the counter and considering the amount of ballers we have at the back we can move the ball pretty quickly from deep to open spaces.

 

[Enigma_87]

To be honest, as I said before, I did mull over picking him for a while. Some lop-sided thing with Lucho on the left if I missed out on Balakov (originally had Hässler in mind for that option, but he went very early). I looked up whether there was any good stuff on him and found that clip. It's dogshit really. If anyone wants to know more about Schneider they'd better ignore a clip with a bunch of free kicks.

Video was more of a pun related to the white Brazilian, pity there aren't much quality compilations of him on the net.

 

[Enigma_87]

Good piece on Suker. His movement, intelligence and response in the box what he brings to the team and he could be very clinical striker on his heyday.

 

[antohan]

I like Suker obviously and IMO he is really underrated in these things. He was one of the most prolific forwards in Spain in the 90's and was a success both at Sevilla and Real and when you also count in his WC form it's a very good peak for a striker that also is a good fit alongside Ronaldinho and Villa.

My intention was to have someone like him to play alongside Villa, whilst obviously Schneider can lean to the right and create width. Villa most likely of course will cut in when we're in possession creating a bit of a 4-4-2.

The main idea whilst picking Suker was to give someone Villa to play alongside and create something like a striking duo, whilst also having someone like Schneider who can cover wide and give us width (as CAF is obsessed with width ) .

So you are actually playing 4-4-2 but would rather not present the teamsheet that way. Right?

This is getting beyond ridiculous. This is now the third team that quite clearly should be displayed as 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1 but, well, don't.

Bizarre.

 

[Enigma_87]

So you are actually playing 4-4-2 but would rather not present the teamsheet that way. Right?

This is getting beyond ridiculous. This is now the third team that quite clearly should be displayed as 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1 but, well, don't.

Bizarre.

Not really. I presented it in possession above. Usually tactics are always presented when you are off the ball or some middle ground not when you are on the ball as the players are high up.
In the write up I also mentioned that Villa and Suker are interchangeable and Schneider being a versatile player that can play either flank - to give width.

with Suker and Villa on the pitch is not a rigid formation but a fluid one, hence the style and I picked Suker for that reason so I don’t play with a classic #9.

 

[antohan]

I don't believe that one bit, mate. The gulf of quality between Davids and Schweini over De Rossi and Luis Enrique is pretty big IMO. I don't really rate De Rossi one bit, so probably you will disagree, but to me he's really inferior to someone like Davids and will not give you the control of the game. Luis Enrique is a great utility player but I rate him more closer to goal, not in a CM role.[/quality]

Love Balakov pick and him as a player but he won't give you more steel than Schneider in the middle. He was not a passenger, so he will contribute of course, but he's more of a conductor and not a runner to chase people down.

Obviously you have Sammer to contribute, but having him in the middle opens up spaces for Villa, Dinho and Suker on the counter and considering the amount of ballers we have at the back we can move the ball pretty quickly from deep to open spaces.

Peak Davids is the best CM on the pitch, no question. Non-peak Schweinsteiger is no better than De Rossi or Luis Enrique though.

Balakov offers more than Schneider, just go watch Bulgaria-Argentina in 1994. Proper CM display and made a good job of chasing centrally or supporting (Zvetanov?) down the flank vs Ortega, who was on a mission to don Diego's mantle.

And you are missing the point re: Sammer. Upon turn over of the ball, whoever gets it, you suddenly have Davids and Schweini having to deal with three of those four bursting forward with Carlos and Zanetti also advancing down the flanks. Pass and move, against an outnumbered pair, with Zola of course not just standing there upfront pinning the CBs back: Crespo does that.

They have no chance to stem that tide, they don't have enough support.

Crucially, as you mention, where Luis Enrique "the handy utility player" shits all over your pair is his scoring record at the end of these moves. Same goes for Balakov.

 

[antohan]

Not really. I presented it in possession above. Usually tactics are always presented when you are off the ball or some middle ground not when you are on the ball as the players are high up.
In the write up I also mentioned that Villa and Suker are interchangeable and Schneider being a versatile player that can play either flank - to give width.

with Suker and Villa on the pitch is not a rigid formation but a fluid one, hence the style and I picked Suker for that reason so I don’t play with a classic #9.

Yeah, sure, make it fluid. So you have:

- Suker and Villa vs Puyol and Chiellini with Sammer spare. Meh.
- Schneider wide on Carlos supported by Balakov. Meh.
- Ronaldinho and Irwin vs Zanetti supported by Luis Enrique, with De Rossi spare in the middle. Think I can reasonably deal with that.
-Davids and non-peak Schweinsteiger to keep an eye on. Meh, there's enough spare backup available to close them down and boy, Schweini better not drop the ball again like in the gif above.

 

[antohan]

Also correct, any defender can easily look like a mug next to Ronaldinho but in Puyol case that chance just gets higher and higher by every minute as he was struggling against dribblers which is odd as he had a great engine and low center of gravity.

Aye, he was just more of a physical/aggressive defender than one to patiently square up and try to shepherd you. Mind, the aggressive alpha male stuff often works well, just shake up the fecker's bones a few times and most will just hope they never get the ball again.

That's precisely why I think it's all the more important he faced Goofy every day at training. He will know full well what his odds are from various courses of action.

Also, don't forget "smarts". Boateng falling with Messi looked and was plain stupid. Him comically falling on his arse vs Robben at the 2010 was the most deliberate and effective way to defuse what looked like a certain match-winner. By hook or crook and he got away with it.

I know you don't care for it, but it's rare to find good defender clips which aren't them scoring 10 goals over 12 seasons:

 

[Enigma_87]

Peak Davids is the best CM on the pitch, no question. Non-peak Schweinsteiger is no better than De Rossi or Luis Enrique though.

Balakov offers more than Schneider, just go watch Bulgaria-Argentina in 1994. Proper CM display and made a good job of chasing centrally or supporting (Zvetanov?) down the flank vs Ortega, who was on a mission to don Diego's mantle.

And you are missing the point re: Sammer. Upon turn over of the ball, whoever gets it, you suddenly have Davids and Schweini having to deal with three of those four bursting forward with Carlos and Zanetti also advancing down the flanks. Pass and move, against an outnumbered pair, with Zola of course not just standing there upfront pinning the CBs back: Crespo does that.

They have no chance to stem that tide, they don't have enough support.

Crucially, as you mention, where Luis Enrique "the handy utility player" shits all over your pair is his scoring record at the end of these moves. Same goes for Balakov.

Re: Schweinsteiger- I think we had this conversation before in the main thread and you agreed that you know what you are getting and it’s pretty much peak Schweinsteiger considering the period and the three years in question above.

and no Luis Enrique and De Rossi are far from what both Davids and Schweinsteiger offer. I know you love them both but I just don’t rate them as high, especially De Rossi, so we can agree to disagree there.

As for Balakov - I’m pretty sure I’ve seen a lot more of him than you and I’ve witnessed his whole NT career pretty much live and a lot more from his Stuttgart stint. The golden generation was full of grinders and all contributed to the team - Yankov, Letchkov, Borimirov(etc, depending on who started) with only Stoichkov in free role. Balakov was a team player but his role was that that of the conductor and getting the ball to him. An elegant player who wasn’t afraid to get his shirt dirty but to me hue wasn’t as a grinder Schneider was.In his later years he moved into Scholes role as a DLP and enjoyed a long career at the NT. His strength lies elsewhere and not to chase people down.

as for pass and move - there isn’t much difference in or team as well. Everyone contributes with the exception of Ronaldinho who is in free role. Angloma had abundance of stamina and despite not as good as Zanetti he also enjoyed a long career at the very top able to contribute in both phases - same goes for Irwin.

It’s swings and roundabouts and obviously you rate your boys more but personal opinion De Rossi and Luis Enrique are just not my cup of tea to dominate a midfield of Basti and Davids regardless of the help they will get.

I’d leave it to the neutrals to chime in too.

Just noticed you are using 09-12 for De Rossi who wasn’t even that good for Roma at the time and only kept his level for the national team.

 

[antohan]

Re: Schweinsteiger- I think we had this conversation before in the main thread and you agreed that you know what you are getting and it’s pretty much peak Schweinsteiger considering the period and the three years in question above.

and no Luis Enrique and De Rossi are far from what both Davids and Schweinsteiger offer. I know you love them both but I just don’t rate them as high, especially De Rossi, so we can agree to disagree there.

As for Balakov - I’m pretty sure I’ve seen a lot more of him than you and I’ve witnessed his whole NT career pretty much live and a lot more from his Stuttgart stint. The golden generation was full of grinders and all contributed to the team - Yankov, Letchkov, Borimirov(etc, depending on who started) with only Stoichkov in free role. Balakov was a team player but his role was that that of the conductor and getting the ball to him. An elegant player who wasn’t afraid to get his shirt dirty but to me hue wasn’t as a grinder Schneider was.In his later years he moved into Scholes role as a DLP and enjoyed a long career at the NT.

as for pass and move - there isn’t much difference in or team as well. Everyone contributes with the exception of Ronaldinho who is in free role. Angloma had abundance of stamina and despite not as good as Zanetti he also enjoyed a long career at the very top able to contribute in both phases - same goes for Irwin.

It’s swings and roundabouts and obviously you rate your boys more but personal opinion De Rossi and Luis Enrique are just not my cup of tea to dominate a midfield of Basti and Davids regardless of the help they will get.

I’d leave it to the neutrals to chime in too.

For the umpteenth time, it's not 2v2.

The moment I get the ball:

- Goofy, Suker and Villa will do sweet FA about it
- Roberto Carlos is running at Angloma, only one winner there
-Zanetti is running at Irwin, whom I rate and was disgusted at how late he went, but it's still Zanetti.
-Crespo is pinning back your CBs (or else)
-Zola drops between the lines
-Davids and Schweinsteiger are facing oncoming traffic of Balakov, Luis Enrique and one of Sammer or De Rossi, while having to keep an eye on Zola behind their back. It's a nightmare.
-They could get some support from Schneider, if fluidity hasn't left him out wide and chasing Carlos (that's why I much prefer your renewed attacking display pic, less bodies in the middle, awesome)

Re: Schweini, I distinctly remember saying I knew what kind of player it was albeit would have to "water it down".

Re: Balakov, conductor that rolls up his sleeves and gets stuck in is all I need. He is supporting a flank where you pose no significant threat. I want him there to be right in the mix when I recover, and not being some passenger fannying around at the tip of a diamond.

 

[Enigma_87]

For the umpteenth time, it's not 2v2.

The moment I get the ball:

- Goofy, Suker and Villa will do sweet FA about it
- Roberto Carlos is running at Angloma, only one winner there
-Zanetti is running at Irwin, whom I rate and was disgusted at how late he went, but it's still Zanetti.
-Crespo is pinning back your CBs (or else)
-Zola drops between the lines
-Davids and Schweinsteiger are facing oncoming traffic of Balakov, Luis Enrique and one of Sammer or De Rossi, while having to keep an eye on Zola behind their back. It's a nightmare.
-They could get some support from Schneider, if fluidity hasn't left him out wide and chasing Carlos (that's why I much prefer your renewed attacking display pic, less bodies in the middle, awesome)

Re: Schweini, I distinctly remember saying I knew what kind of player it was albeit would have to "water it down".

Re: Balakov, conductor that rolls up his sleeves and gets stuck in is all I need. He is supporting a flank where you pose no significant threat. I want him there to be right in the mix when I recover, and not being some passenger fannying around at the tip of a diamond.

So you have both your wingbacks coming forward when you are on the ball and one of Sammer/ De Rossi too? Considering we have Ronaldinho, Villa, Suker, etc on the counter I think I would take that.

My "renewed" attacking picture is not when we are off the ball, but on it, as I mentioned, so it is not like that in the defensive phase. As I said - all will contribute bar Ronaldinho who is in a free role.

Our defensive phase depends on the movement of your attackers naturally and our players won't be static on a teamsheet, which is why I don't think we can depict it statically as only one ball over the top changes the positions of all players significantly.

In terms of midfield battle you have De Rossi (09-12) - who as you said peaked early and he didn't age very well in the end of his career. Luis Enrique (96-99) who played in more attacking role for Barca at the time and closer to goal usually and Balakov (94-97) who at the time was #10 at Stuttgart and had not one but two defensive midfielders behind him in Soldo and Poschner. For his club sides (Sporting and Stuttgart) he was much more attacking and played just off the forwards closer to a classic #10. As I said - he was not a passenger and I love him as a player, but he is not the one to chase people down or run vertically in order to give you the extra body in midfield. That was not his strength. For the NT you had Yankov as a holder - typical DM in Soldo's mold, Letchkov who was another excellent technician who covered a lot of grass, Kostadinov and Sirakov also contributed off the ball. Kostadinov was dropping back and covering space waiting to get a ball on the counter to use his electric pace. Many of those balls came from Bala btw who opened space centrally to wide areas as we usually attacked from wide - Letchkov was attacking right alongside Kostadinov and Stoichkov left - all cutting in afterwards, but nominally starting wide.

If we go by the "three years" peak you have watered down version of De Rossi yourself, Bala who was much more attacking both in his Sporting stint and at Stuttgart (he played a deeper role for the NT in some games, I give you that but was not the same role as for his club) and Luis Enrique who again played multiple roles for Barca from CF and AM to RW and RB.

On the flip side you have Schweinsteiger who played in his natural role here and you have at least 2/3 of his peak in the time period, Davids in his absolute peak in his natural role, Schneider who played either as AM/CM or RW/RM hybrid - exactly what is asked from him here.

Other aspect of it is that all of our players are press resistant - from our CM to defenders and of course the attackers. All have great technical ability and can release themselves from their marker and leave him on the backfoot with the drop of a shoulder.

I'll be off for a while, have to take care of my little one(not twins but just as taxing IMO) and be back later, hopefully some neutrals can chime in too.

Love to see you got your mojo back in terms of in game discussions and some of the quotes above bring back the memories of old anto, so whatever the outcome good luck mate.

EDIT: Reading the discussion above I'm really disappointed with @Šjor Bepo not rating Suker (although I know he's not that much of a nationalist ) but also not tearing Bobby Carlos a new one, considering his recent observations, I hoped I can snatch his vote at least

 

[Gio]

I'm interested in Sammer as a sweeper as the position has become redundant these days.

Without getting too anal, a lot depends on what the version of the offside rule we're operating with. The flat defence has become more of a necessity in the last 30 years as the offside rule has become friendlier to attackers. As soon as they stopped automatically flagging players off anyone who was in an offside position, irrespective of whether they were interfering with play, the balance changed between defender and attacker. I remember one of the first high profile incidents was this one:


https://www.nytimes.com/1994/07/10/sports/world-cup-94-a-call-the-dutch-won-t-soon-forget.html

The genie was out of the bottle and defences had to change.

Digressing, but the back 3 remains fairly successful today where the central player has much the same covering responsibilities as any sweeper or libero in previous generations. They just take place 5 yards higher up the park. The best players who could adapt tend to be the same guys we pick here regularly - Sammer or Scirea - while I'd have to defer to the likes of @Joga Bonito or @Theon who have watched more of Picchi and other purer sweepers as to how they'd adjust. I've no idea, but generally it's easier the more rounded your skillset is.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Im considering to vote for enigma only on the basis of anto saying how Villa will do FA in the defensive phase. Been a while since i read bigger load of nonsense.

Schweini without best 2 years and we can even tie him a blindfold he would still be class above fecking De Rossi but there is s theme there with anto, he loves a barking dog.

Would love nothing more then to tear a new one on Bobby the clown but in a back 3 against only really Angloma he is more then fine.

Still thinking about the vote, much closer to anto for now who succesfully hide his weaknessess.

 

[Enigma_87]

Im considering to vote for enigma only on the basis of anto saying how Villa will do FA in the defensive phase. Been a while since i read bigger load of nonsense.

Schweini without best 2 years and we can even tie him a blindfold he would still be class above fecking De Rossi but there is s theme there with anto, he loves a barking dog.

Would love nothing more then to tear a new one on Bobby the clown but in a back 3 against only really Angloma he is more then fine.

Still thinking about the vote, much closer to anto for now who succesfully hide his weaknessess.

Schneider will move wide to provide width and also to target the space between the CB and wingback position when Villa cuts in, so we definitely will use that space. He's a great dribbler and isolated against Carlos or Chiellini can create numerical advantage and some space for Villa/Suker to run to.

I'm a fan of Carlos so I won't say he's a weak link, but he definitely will be targetted and sometimes even doubled which would require someone like Bala(which is definitely not his best role) or Chiellini to help him out.

The thing is - with 5-3-2 in drafts is usually like a cheat code when it comes to 'hiding' your weaknesses and I often reverted to it in the past as it looks like impenetrable unit whilst you can snatch a winning goal on counter. But in terms of the game in hand I feel we have more quality across the park (individual one) and without glaring weaknesses ourselves to win this game.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Schneider will move wide to provide width and also to target the space between the CB and wingback position when Villa cuts in, so we definitely will use that space. He's a great dribbler and isolated against Carlos or Chiellini can create numerical advantage and some space for Villa/Suker to run to.

I'm a fan of Carlos so I won't say he's a weak link, but he definitely will be targetted and sometimes even doubled which would require someone like Bala(which is definitely not his best role) or Chiellini to help him out.

The thing is - with 5-3-2 in drafts is usually like a cheat code when it comes to 'hiding' your weaknesses and I often reverted to it in the past as it looks like impenetrable unit whilst you can snatch a winning goal on counter. But in terms of the game in hand I feel we have more quality across the park (individual one) and without glaring weaknesses ourselves to win this game.

Drifting to the right and actually playing there are two different things and IMO you missed a trick as Schneider had a great WC final against Carlos.

Agreed on 532(same can be said for 4231 tbf, not that it hides weaknesses but thats overrated as feck) but i take that into account, because on paper it looks like anto has this in the bag easily, great 532 with no particular weakness and tactically very apt but in reality is that this team would be lacking going forwards which is why im yet to pull the trigger.

 

[Enigma_87]

Drifting to the right and actually playing there are two different things and IMO you missed a trick as Schneider had a great WC final against Carlos.

Agreed on 532(same can be said for 4231 tbf, not that it hides weaknesses but thats overrated as feck) but i take that into account, because on paper it looks like anto has this in the bag easily, great 532 with no particular weakness and tactically very apt but in reality is that this team would be lacking going forwards which is why im yet to pull the trigger.

I've assessed the two phases and when we are off the ball he will tuck in help out the midfield, whilst Villa will be dropping wide to track back (something he did quite well for Valencia and even had a season where he was prominent on the right and bagged handful of assists).

When we're in possession Schneider will open up the wing and Villa will be cutting in to be closer to goal. It's natural transition that would see him more to the right when we are in possession - just like the second graphic.

Formation graphics doesn't never tell the whole story and I know we always go into argument when we try to assess our own and opponents positions whilst trying to drag yours with a bit of an advantage , but in reality as I said Schneider will definitely double up on the wing and open up space and target Carlos. It's natural transition that would happen quite often in the attacking phase.

This is particularly why I picked Schneider, Villa and Suker - to give me this versatility up front and not lack width when I use Villa starting nominally on the right and cutting in. Whilst in the same time he has someone to pin their CB's back or drag Sammer out of position when dropping back and Villa to use that space to storm into the box.

I rate Villa a lot as a striker (you of course know that) and have no problem to use him as a lone CF where he can be the mobile complete striker, but in order for him to be at his optimal best I would have a strikerish figure in the middle to take the pressure of engaging the CB's and also open up spaces.

It's marginal difference for him, whether he will start between the CB's and move them around, or start nominally from the wing attacking the box, but as soon as I was paired with anto and his 5-3-2 I think starting nominally wide and attacking the box will be easier for him to find space and get into positions.

One bit in regards to his completeness:

According to his international team-mate Xabi Alonso, Villa "is a born goalscorer: quick, clever and strong, superb with both feet". The ambidexterity is a product of a broken femur when he was a young boy: with his leg in plaster, Villa was thrown the ball by his dad over and over and he kicked it back with his unplastered (weaker) leg. He is, Alonso continues, "a striker who barely needs a second to release a shot". Even if it is on the halfway line: his best came against Deportivo de La Coruña, when he hit a 50 yarder … on the turn.

He has scored free-kicks, headers, volleys, chips and screechers. There is a certain obsessiveness about him. "I can't remember every goal," he says, "but if I sat down with a pen and a piece of paper, I'm sure I'd remember most of them." There are a hell of a lot to remember. There are 168 league goals, despite not playing for one of the country's very best sides. Valencia have finished fifth, 10th, fourth and third in the seasons Villa has spent there; Zaragoza were 12th twice. Over the last five years, only Samuel Eto'o has scored more goals than him. And Eto'o only has six more – in a team that racked up 129 more than Villa's sides. Then there's the fact that for most of that time he has taken Valencia's corners and free-kicks – and however good a player is he can't head in his own crosses.


It is no exaggeration. In his first season at Valencia, he provided more assists than anyone except Pablo Aimar; in 2006-07 he gave more assists than anyone in the whole of La Liga. He is not just a striker, he is an attacker – "the complete attacker", according to Michael Robinson, the former Liverpool player and now Spain's most significant television pundit. "Villa," he says, "has absolutely everything." Except, as yet, the cheerleaders his abilities deserve.

 

[antohan]

So you have both your wingbacks coming forward when you are on the ball and one of Sammer/ De Rossi too? Considering we have Ronaldinho, Villa, Suker, etc on the counter I think I would take that.

It has been in the OP from the beginning, there's at least 5-6 teamsheets in there explaining game plan and possible in-game variations.

Thanks for reconfirming Ronaldinho, Villa and Suker are all ready to pounce and hanging around my CBs and sweeper (be it Sammer or De Rossi if Sammer joined the attack). For some reason @Šjor Bepo takes issue with me taking your word that they will do sweet FA when I have the ball.

My "renewed" attacking picture is not when we are off the ball, but on it, as I mentioned, so it is not like that in the defensive phase. As I said - all will contribute bar Ronaldinho who is in a free role.

Our defensive phase depends on the movement of your attackers naturally and our players won't be static on a teamsheet, which is why I don't think we can depict it statically as only one ball over the top changes the positions of all players significantly.

Your defensive phase starts the moment I get the ball. As I said from the outset: direct, vertical, fast and furious. Your players won't magically teleport themselves elsewhere.

Using your own graphic, maybe you now get the picture:

In terms of midfield battle...

TLtR. The midfield battle isn't the sort of gladiatorial contest I was joking about earlier.

- My midfielders have to deal with the threats you depicted above. They'll quite clearly be absolutely fine.

- Your midfielders have to deal with three players running at them and one lurking behind their back. With options to also bypass them down the flanks. They will get run over.

I'm glad you are helping me explain how Balakov as conductor could help orchestrate those moves. I was a bit worried people would see the hustle and bustle but no creativity or playmaking from that trio, not that my style requires much brain activity, it's just one-twoing past a couple of sitting ducks..

Also, thanks for the evergreen assumption that Luis Enrique's scoring record can only be the result of him playing further forward... That team had Ronaldo and then Sonny Anderson upfront, Figo RW, Stoichkov/Rivaldo LW. He was played in a midfield three exactly where he is here and his responsibilities were first and foremost those of a central midfielder. He did occasionally play behind the striker in a Bakero role of sorts when they chose not to play a pivot and inverted the midfield triangle. He did also on occasion act as backup for either winger. Figo, Rivaldo, Stoichkov injured/off-form? No problem, we will stick Lucho there and it will be fine. That's how fecking special he was.