Nostalgia Draft R1: Antohan vs Enigma

With all their players in their specified 3-year peak, who would win this game


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Enigma_87

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Thanks for reconfirming Ronaldinho, Villa and Suker are all ready to pounce and hanging around my CBs and sweeper (be it Sammer or De Rossi if Sammer joined the attack). For some reason @Šjor Bepo takes issue with me taking your word that they will do sweet FA when I have the ball.
I never said that.

I've assessed the two phases and when we are off the ball he will tuck in help out the midfield, whilst Villa will be dropping wide to track back (something he did quite well for Valencia and even had a season where he was prominent on the right and bagged handful of assists).
Everyone helps when we're off the ball, only Ronnie is in a free role.

- Your midfielders have to deal with three players running at them and one lurking behind their back. With options to also bypass them down the flanks. They will get run over.
That's bollocks mate and I've been long enough in these drafts to go into that argument. No mans are spared in both phases of the game. And I'm sorry but however you try to spin it De Rossi, Luis Enrique, Balakov ain't going to run over a midfield consisting of Basti, Davids and Schneider.

You can randomly throw the names of De Rossi, Sammer and your two wing backs high up into the mix, but doing so you have huge gaps on the back as soon as you turn over possession.
I'm glad you are helping me explain how Balakov as conductor could help orchestrate those moves. I was a bit worried people would see the hustle and bustle but no creativity or playmaking from that trio, not that my style requires much brain activity, it's just one-twoing past a couple of sitting ducks..
Balakov in your period was not the hustle and bustle. He was a lot closer to a classic #10 at Stuttgart, so you can't have both. It's either the main conductor of the side who had not one but two DM's behind him or you have him in a slightly deeper role for the NT where he also had Yankov, Letchkov (who even had games playing B2B) that also did a lot of running for him.

As for calling midfielders like Davids and Schweini sitting ducks - I just won't go into that argument - there is no point. All voters know quite a lot about them to get a proper visual of how the game in the middle will pan out.
 

antohan

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Without getting too anal, a lot depends on what the version of the offside rule we're operating with. The flat defence has become more of a necessity in the last 30 years as the offside rule has become friendlier to attackers. As soon as they stopped automatically flagging players off anyone who was in an offside position, irrespective of whether they were interfering with play, the balance changed between defender and attacker. I remember one of the first high profile incidents was this one:


https://www.nytimes.com/1994/07/10/sports/world-cup-94-a-call-the-dutch-won-t-soon-forget.html

The genie was out of the bottle and defences had to change.

Digressing, but the back 3 remains fairly successful today where the central player has much the same covering responsibilities as any sweeper or libero in previous generations. They just take place 5 yards higher up the park. The best players who could adapt tend to be the same guys we pick here regularly - Sammer or Scirea - while I'd have to defer to the likes of @Joga Bonito or @Theon who have watched more of Picchi and other purer sweepers as to how they'd adjust. I've no idea, but generally it's easier the more rounded your skillset is.
Wrong video mate, the one contested was Bebeto's second which, if ruled out, would have been outrageous (yeah, today standards). Anyone arguing Romario was "interfering with play" was looking for a sad excuse for standing by as the ball bounced past them and onto Bebeto's path.

We do owe ourselves a revisiting of sweeper, libero, etc. I'd agree the basic (least common denominator) sweeper is still very much there in three man defences.

I personally make the distinction between sweeper (largely a defender) and libero (a complete footballer that can impact different facets of play). The skillset is indeed completely different. E.g. last time I had Sammer he was also libero, but with no sweeping duties, just part of a back four that would push up to being in the thick of it as a midfielder when in possession. This here is more akin to what he did for Germany.

Ultimately, the difference between a defensive sweeper (Sanchís) and a libero (Sammer) is down to "I have a cracking baller who has the entire pitch inside his head, what is going on everywhere, and where he should be for maximum impact. Unleash him and trust his judgement to be in the right place at the right time".
 

antohan

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Im considering to vote for enigma only on the basis of anto saying how Villa will do FA in the defensive phase. Been a while since i read bigger load of nonsense.
I'm taking his word for it. I supposedly can't have Sammer pushing up or else all of Ronaldinho, Suker and Villa are ready to pounce on long balls in a 3v2 against my CBs. Now I see he is returning from the box, to the flank, and tracking back Carlos, while Schneider is moving from the flank to a central position and chasing back to help Davids and Schweinsteiger. I expect to get to the other end of the pitch a lot quicker than this can be of any use.

Schweini without best 2 years and we can even tie him a blindfold he would still be class above fecking De Rossi but there is s theme there with anto, he loves a barking dog.
Oh, I'd love peak Schweinsteiger as a pivot behind the other two. He wasn't and won't be available though. The key thing with De Rossi was I needed a midfielder that could join the other two (more dangerous ones) in transition, but also stay back as DM and even dropping into defence as Sammer cover (seeing as if Matthias is well placed to join the other two, or even starts the move himself, I'd much rather have him free to have a go).

How many midfielders can fulfill both roles to that standard? Not many.

The thing is - with 5-3-2 in drafts is usually like a cheat code when it comes to 'hiding' your weaknesses and I often reverted to it in the past as it looks like impenetrable unit whilst you can snatch a winning goal on counter.
Read my OP then. I never talked about sitting back and hitting you on the break. If that were the case I wouldn't have passed on Verón or Guardiola as glorious ball pingers. On the counter, I'm carrying the ball forward for the most part, pass and move. The ball over the top is more a threat/option for Crespo to pin back your CBs and provide the space between the lines.

It's 3-5-2 by the way, not 5-3-2. Potato-potatoe maybe, but it's not some random pair of fullbacks who will ocasionally venture forward. I own those flanks.

Agreed on 532(same can be said for 4231 tbf, not that it hides weaknesses but thats overrated as feck) but i take that into account, because on paper it looks like anto has this in the bag easily, great 532 with no particular weakness and tactically very apt but in reality is that this team would be lacking going forwards which is why im yet to pull the trigger.
I know, there's a danger the front two get isolated. That's precisely why I started Crespo and Zola, both are very familiar with that setup and were top scorers for their sides many seasons in a row playing in that exact setup. They know it inside out. I'm not sticking Ruud van Nistelrooy up there and saying "Oi, he screams goals" while hoping he works it out somehow.

Goes without saying the entire setup is the natural evolution of picking Carlos and Zanetti first.

That setup calls for a sweeper/libero, and I have the GOAT one at delivering in exactly the same 3-5-2 setup (not, say, Beckenbauer being libero in a back four, that's a different cup of tea).

Which brings you to the midfielders, and the entire point was NOT to pick a Mauro Silva for his defensive attributes but to get both Balakov and Luis Enrique as midfielders that will put the necessary shift in, but primarily geared towards the incisiveness and damage they can make at the other end. E.g. Davids is the best CM on the pitch, yes, but I wouldn't swap him for Balakov. I need Balakov and not Davids there.
 

antohan

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Balakov in your period was not the hustle and bustle. He was a lot closer to a classic #10 at Stuttgart, so you can't have both. It's either the main conductor of the side who had not one but two DM's behind him or you have him in a slightly deeper role for the NT where he also had Yankov, Letchkov (who even had games playing B2B) that also did a lot of running for him.
I know what you are getting at, but I'm not going for a DM here or anything like it. I actually shaved off one Stuttgart year and started at 1994. Can't go any earlier as I first came across him there. Wouldn't give a crap about stating it as 1993-96 if that suits you.

If you read my peak description I think it's pretty clear I'm not selling the peak Stuttgart version, I even say he started playing further up the pitch, which is handy, but not what I was looking for. Didn't post a Stutgart clip, did I? I posted a Sporting gif starting a run from midfield, where he played.

Again, Bulgaria-Argentina shows him doing everything I expect from him here. Watched it a few days ago, which was great because I could remember watching at the time and being delighted with Hristo doing so well and owning them in that free role (I loved him already from the Dream Team, but he was somewhat more restricted there). Also funny to watch it with Argie commentary. They spent all game banging on about that great upcoming match up with Italy, then they concede late and change tune to "Mexico will be easy, Italy will eat them alive, maybe we should have just conceded earlier :confused: ", then Nigeria score and they go "Wait, so now Nigeria plays Italy, Bulgaria plays Mexico, who the feck are we playing then?" :lol:

Letchkov was fantastic in that World Cup by the way. Conceding a penalty at one end (defending at the goalmouth, not some stupid Pogba handball) and scoring at the other is the definition of everywhere. Shame I only ever saw him in those games, certainly one that deserves an airing in a WC peak draft. Had the Team of the Tournament been like nowadays were they stick an entire squad in there he would have certainly featured in it too.

Trifon Ivanov also was a fecking hero. Probably won't ever get picked as he was prone to car crash defensive lapses but you couldn't fault the guy's effort, he wouldn't let it get his head down and had some absolutely brilliant interventions.

As for calling midfielders like Davids and Schweini sitting ducks - I just won't go into that argument - there is no point. All voters know quite a lot about them to get a proper visual of how the game in the middle will pan out.
It's not personal. Two players facing three coming at them with wingbacks either side and a tricky player like Zola behind their backs is essentially what a sitting duck looks like.
 

Chesterlestreet

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Heh. Anto back, arguing old school style - I like that.

Anyway, not much in it - but what edges it for me is probably the WB combo. Pretty fantastic combo, as combos go. And the rest of it makes sense, of course - as you'd expect.

(Enigma's team makes sense too - obviously - you wouldn't expect anything else there either).
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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I think this would go down to individual match winners and believe Enigma just has them. Tactically perfect, but I reckon anto's team just lacks the goal threat (vs Enigma's Defence). A moment of magic from Ronnie should be the difference in here for me.
 

Chesterlestreet

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I watched Germany-Bulgaria (1994) with my dad in a beach type restaurant in Italy (Rimini). The locals didn't really give a shit about the outcome but the tourist support was probably 95% pro Germany - because, well, there were a load of German tourists there. My dad and I were pro Bulgaria (along with a crazy Danish guy and a lady who was, actually, Bulgarian).

The looks on the faces of those Germans...they couldn't believe it. It was inconceivable to them.
 

antohan

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I watched Germany-Bulgaria (1994) with my dad in a beach type restaurant in Italy (Rimini). The locals didn't really give a shit about the outcome but the tourist support was probably 95% pro Germany - because, well, there were a load of German tourists there. My dad and I were pro Bulgaria (along with a crazy Danish guy and a lady who was, actually, Bulgarian).

The looks on the faces of those Germans...they couldn't believe it. It was inconceivable to them.
One of my favourite World Cup moments. Random bald guy that looked like Bob the shopkeeper ecstatically running around after knocking out the world champs. Most of the guys on the pitch were indeed the world champs.

Just wrote in the other gamethread about the Americans panicking at the snoozefest that Italy's group was, but moments like that sure as hell made up for it. Rags to riches, giant-killing, call it what you will, fantastic.

Football, bloody hell :devil:
 

Chesterlestreet

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One of my favourite World Cup moments.
Yep - right up there.

I'm not - and I haven't ever been - anti-German as such (I mean in terms of football, of course). I hugely admire German football on the whole - so it ain't that.

But that match was sweet - a genuine giant killing moment which wasn't just random either, because Bulgaria wasn't a shite team, far from it.
 

Gio

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Yep - right up there.

I'm not - and I haven't ever been - anti-German as such (I mean in terms of football, of course). I hugely admire German football on the whole - so it ain't that.

But that match was sweet - a genuine giant killing moment which wasn't just random either, because Bulgaria wasn't a shite team, far from it.
Yeah, same here. It was a rare example of a massive shock delivered by a team that was very capable, rather than a weaker team either parking the bus or getting a big slice of luck. And they also broke conventions by coming from behind, which forces a completely different and more challenging type of response than hanging onto a lead.
 

antohan

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Yep - right up there.

I'm not - and I haven't ever been - anti-German as such (I mean in terms of football, of course). I hugely admire German football on the whole - so it ain't that.

But that match was sweet - a genuine giant killing moment which wasn't just random either, because Bulgaria wasn't a shite team, far from it.
I think I've mentioned before when I was a kid in the 70s and up until after the 1982 World Cup the only European football we got here was the Bundesliga in the state channel (military rule then so I guess they didn't want the risk of Spanish/Italian stadiums used for ads/banners). So I grew up watching that 1986-94 generation of players come through. I was delighted for them when they won it in 1990, fall of the Berlin Wall, reunification coming...

By the same measure, more so with Uruguay not even attending, I had Romania, Bulgaria and Colombia as my adopted teams. Colombia unfortunately wound up highlighting in the worst way possible why I wanted them to do well. Romania and Bulgaria I already mentioned in the main thread, I had this theoretical construct on how much they would embrace this new world of opportunities and make a statement for themselves.

Passed that with flying colours. The flipside, as some fed back on the thread, is that it was a perfect storm: all the formative investment + all the individual incentives, and now the lack of formative investment has caught up with them. A real shame that.

Speaking of... what the hell happened with African football? They were the next big thing, Nigeria was always a dark horse falling on its arse due to lack of football "smarts"/result orientation/tactical discipline. It never materialised. What has changed though? Bosman again? Doubt there's any relevant change in terms of government policies/investment, it has to be football-specific.
 

Chesterlestreet

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It was a rare example of a massive shock delivered by a team that was very capable, rather than a weaker team either parking the bus or getting a big slice of luck.
Precisely.

From a fan perspective, back then (in that beach front restaurant) it wasn't: "haha, some random team knocked yer boys out".

But rather: "you seriously underestimated these feckers."

Which was - obviously - all the sweeter.
 

antohan

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Yeah, same here. It was a rare example of a massive shock delivered by a team that was very capable, rather than a weaker team either parking the bus or getting a big slice of luck. And they also broke conventions by coming from behind, which forces a completely different and more challenging type of response than hanging onto a lead.
You tell me... I'm completely miffed I laid out how with the same XI, or through subs, I could deal with different in-game situations and nobody seems to give a shit about that. All the same old bollocks about X > Y regardless of them having completely different roles to perform.
 

antohan

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Precisely.

From a fan perspective, back then (in that beach front restaurant) it wasn't: "haha, some random team knocked yer boys out".

But rather: "you seriously underestimated these feckers."

Which was - obviously - all the sweeter.
They did indeed, as if they just had to turn up to win it.

Watched that one again last week and, again, the Argie commentary was glorious. There was one guy delighted Germany lost, kept pointing out it was the same old team, same old players, no new faces coming through, deserved to go out just for that... He was clearly bitter about 1990. Didn't have a good word to say about Bulgaria though. "Bang average, random bunch of unimaginative players with 2-3 good performers". "Same as Romania, they are such a boring team but got lucky".

So salty, loved it, more so when "El Loco" Gatti (an actual footballer, former Boca keeper) chipped in: "Well, we may be better on paper but they played their game, we played ours, their gameplan worked and they won. That's how football works" :lol:

People should just learn Spanish to listen to Argies talking about football. It's hilarious. At the last qualifier a mate of mine was praying they didn't make it. Nothing against Argentina, his take was "the World Cup lasts a month, from the end of the qualifiers to the end of the World Cup there's more than six months of Argie meltdowns to entertain me".
 

Chesterlestreet

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Speaking of... what the hell happened with African football? They were the next big thing, Nigeria was always a dark horse falling on its arse due to lack of football "smarts"/result orientation/tactical discipline. It never materialised. What has changed though? Bosman again? Doubt there's any relevant change in terms of government policies/investment, it has to be football-specific.
Good question.

It was - indeed - the next big thing.

I've started drinking, though (Friday, ffs) - so don't expect logic or sense. But the possible emergence of a genuine African challenger (early, mid 90s) did coincide with the emergence of the Champions League and the general decline (I would argue) of national teams.
 

oneniltothearsenal

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I think I've mentioned before when I was a kid in the 70s and up until after the 1982 World Cup the only European football we got here was the Bundesliga in the state channel (military rule then so I guess they didn't want the risk of Spanish/Italian stadiums used for ads/banners). So I grew up watching that 1986-94 generation of players come through. I was delighted for them when they won it in 1990, fall of the Berlin Wall, reunification coming...

By the same measure, more so with Uruguay not even attending, I had Romania, Bulgaria and Colombia as my adopted teams. Colombia unfortunately wound up highlighting in the worst way possible why I wanted them to do well. Romania and Bulgaria I already mentioned in the main thread, I had this theoretical construct on how much they would embrace this new world of opportunities and make a statement for themselves.

Passed that with flying colours. The flipside, as some fed back on the thread, is that it was a perfect storm: all the formative investment + all the individual incentives, and now the lack of formative investment has caught up with them. A real shame that.

Speaking of... what the hell happened with African football? They were the next big thing, Nigeria was always a dark horse falling on its arse due to lack of football "smarts"/result orientation/tactical discipline. It never materialised. What has changed though? Bosman again? Doubt there's any relevant change in terms of government policies/investment, it has to be football-specific.
It's a more complex question but I think the obvious answers of resources, infrastructure, and immigration do a good job explaining a lot of it.

This are the list of African born players playing for european countries.
ANGOLA
William Carvalho (Portugal),
Blaise Matuidi (France)
CAMEROUN
Breel Embolo (Switzerland),
François Moubandje (Switzerland),
Samuel Umtiti (France)
CAPE VERDE
Eliseu (Portugal),
Gelson Fernandez (Switzerland),
João Mário (Portugal),
Nani (Portugal),
Renato Sanches (Portugal)
IVORY COAST
Johan Djourou (Switzerland),
Jonathan Tah (Germany)
EGYPT
Stephan El Shaarawy (Italy)
ETHIOPIA
Theodor Gebre Selassie (Czech Rep)
GHANA
Jérôme Boateng (Germany)
GUINEA
Paul Pogba (France)
GUINEA BISSAU
Danilo Pereira (Portugal),
Eder (Portugal)
KENYA
Martin Olsson (Sweden),
Divock Origi (Belgium)
MALI
Moussa Dembélé (Belgium),
Ngolo Kanté (France),
Moussa Sissoko (France)
MORROCCO
Marouane Fellaini (Belgium),
Adil Rami (France)
NIGERIA
David Alaba (Austria),
Dele Alli (England),
Angelo Ogbonna (Italy),
Rubin Okotie (Austria),
Hal Robson-Kanu (Wales)
Ross Barkley(England) *Ross Barkley's great grand parents had ancestral roots from Nigeria*
DR CONGO
Michy Batshuayi (Belgium),
Christian Benteke (Belgium),
Jason Denayer (Belgium),
Christian Kabasele (Belgium),
Jordan Lukaku (Belgium),
Romelu Lukaku (Belgium),
Steve Mandanda (France),
Eliaquim Mangala (France),
Denis Zakaria (Switzerland)
SENEGAL
Patrice Evra (France),
Bacary Sagna (France),
Leroy Sané (Germany)
TUNISIA
Sami Khedira (Germany)
TANZANIA
Marcus Rashford (England).
 

antohan

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Good question.

It was - indeed - the next big thing.

I've started drinking, though (Friday, ffs) - so don't expect logic or sense. But the possible emergence of a genuine African challenger (early, mid 90s) did coincide with the emergence of the Champions League and the general decline (I would argue) of national teams.
As I said, Bosman. Young talents plucked out aged 18 for peanuts and chucked in "academies" instead of developing in domestic leagues and continental tournaments. Youth development becoming more of a business, as is the case with the constant moves to random teams for agents to fill their pockets.

The amount of local talent I've seen going to waste that way... I'd expect the same happens to them except we have a bit more history, structures and competitive qualifiers/continental tournos in place.
 

harms

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You tell me... I'm completely miffed I laid out how with the same XI, or through subs, I could deal with different in-game situations and nobody seems to give a shit about that. All the same old bollocks about X > Y regardless of them having completely different roles to perform.
I give a shit! :(

Haven't voted yet though.
 

antohan

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It's a more complex question but I think the obvious answers of resources, infrastructure, and immigration do a good job explaining a lot of it.

This are the list of African born players playing for european countries.
ANGOLA
William Carvalho (Portugal),
Blaise Matuidi (France)
CAMEROUN
Breel Embolo (Switzerland),
François Moubandje (Switzerland),
Samuel Umtiti (France)
CAPE VERDE
Eliseu (Portugal),
Gelson Fernandez (Switzerland),
João Mário (Portugal),
Nani (Portugal),
Renato Sanches (Portugal)
IVORY COAST
Johan Djourou (Switzerland),
Jonathan Tah (Germany)
EGYPT
Stephan El Shaarawy (Italy)
ETHIOPIA
Theodor Gebre Selassie (Czech Rep)
GHANA
Jérôme Boateng (Germany)
GUINEA
Paul Pogba (France)
GUINEA BISSAU
Danilo Pereira (Portugal),
Eder (Portugal)
KENYA
Martin Olsson (Sweden),
Divock Origi (Belgium)
MALI
Moussa Dembélé (Belgium),
Ngolo Kanté (France),
Moussa Sissoko (France)
MORROCCO
Marouane Fellaini (Belgium),
Adil Rami (France)
NIGERIA
David Alaba (Austria),
Dele Alli (England),
Angelo Ogbonna (Italy),
Rubin Okotie (Austria),
Hal Robson-Kanu (Wales)
Ross Barkley(England) *Ross Barkley's great grand parents had ancestral roots from Nigeria*
DR CONGO
Michy Batshuayi (Belgium),
Christian Benteke (Belgium),
Jason Denayer (Belgium),
Christian Kabasele (Belgium),
Jordan Lukaku (Belgium),
Romelu Lukaku (Belgium),
Steve Mandanda (France),
Eliaquim Mangala (France),
Denis Zakaria (Switzerland)
SENEGAL
Patrice Evra (France),
Bacary Sagna (France),
Leroy Sané (Germany)
TUNISIA
Sami Khedira (Germany)
TANZANIA
Marcus Rashford (England).
Have resources and structure changed at all since the 90s?

Immigration probably has, also bearing in mind a 90s player would be 70s/80s immigration (if family moved).

With Bosman though, the likelihood of an African-born player starting his career in some random academy in Europe and thus eventually declaring for a European country increases. Would be interesting to draw up a similar list from the 90s, see where they were actually born, when they moved... Probably too much work :lol:
 

TheReligion

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This is quite difficult as I really like @antohan back 5 and the WBs are superb. The three at the back means they can attack with alot of freedom or shift to a 4 if one goes and so on.

That said I prefer the top half of @Enigma_87 team, especially Davids, Ronaldinho and Villa. Very difficult to pick a winner. Sammer coming into the midfield and creating an overload, especially with the level of freedom for Carlos and Zanetti might swing it just but I'd be happy to call it a score draw. A moment of magic would win it.
 

antohan

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As a final point, seeing as this is going to the wire.

Both keepers are excellent goalkeepers and preferences could go either way.

One key difference though is Pagliuca has good distribution and was required to act as a sweeper-keeper for high-line lovers Eriksson at Sampdoria and for Sacchi's Italy.

Peruzzi never polished that side of his game and typically just punted the ball as far away as possible.

That's a main reason I picked Pagliuca on Turn 10 and didn't risk having to end up with Peruzzi or Marchegiani (who, in fairness, got a bit better at it once Eriksson arrived at Lazio).

Seeing as both managers are convinced they are playing on the frontfoot (probably a constant back and forth) this point is somewhat relevant.
 

Enigma_87

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As a final point, seeing as this is going to the wire.
You are already through mate. 2 votes difference is a lot with current number of voters these days, unless someone changes his mind.

Good luck going forward and all the best :)
 

Chesterlestreet

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Young talents plucked out aged 18 for peanuts and chucked in "academies" instead of developing in domestic leagues and continental tournaments.
Yes - this.

It has something to do with it, surely.

Question: what was the last truly great national team?

Or - if you will - when was the last time a national team was better than the best (objectively speaking, more or less) club team?
 

antohan

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You are already through mate. 2 votes difference is a lot with current number of voters these days, unless someone changes his mind.

Good luck going forward and all the best :)
What happened to not disclosing scores? Is that an oldie thing?
 

Enigma_87

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What happened to not disclosing scores? Is that an oldie thing?
we have 10-15 votes per game usually and rarely that many votes in the dying minutes which makes it nearly impossible for a turnaround when you are losing by 2-3.
 

antohan

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Yes - this.

It has something to do with it, surely.

Question: what was the last truly great national team?

Or - if you will - when was the last time a national team was better than the best (objectively speaking, more or less) club team?
It's a bit of a cheat once clubs can collect talent the world over and NTs have a far narrower pool.

Germany 2014 was built on Bayern, some additions, but no Robbery.

Spain 2010 famously lacked Messi.

Italy 2006 wouldn't beat Milan (just to make roughly comparable teams/styles).

Brazil 02 was insanely talented but may have struggled with the top CL sides. Probably the last one to have a strong shout.

France 98 arguably. Dead even I reckon, needed a better striker.

Brazil 94, no chance.

Germany 90? Tough, that's peak Milan times.

Probably the Dutch in 1988? Not sure how them playing against themselves would work :lol:

If you go back to France 84 you get a similar issue with Platini. Italy 1982 the opposite.

Back in 74 the two finalists were also built on the best sides out there, domestic sides, so that's definitely an inflexion point there as the NT was always bound to be an improvement on the best club side.
 

antohan

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we have 10-15 votes per game usually and rarely that many votes in the dying minutes which makes it nearly impossible for a turnaround when you are losing by 2-3.
Still, you completely remove the intrigue of what the scoreline is, which makes voting more appealing.

On the flipside, those not sure really try avoid finding out they are actually deciding a game when not at all sure.

It invites votes, steers clear those who have no real basis to vote, and makes the vote be an accurate reflection to mull over after.

We should stick to it really, there's no downside.
 

antohan

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Good game Enigma.

I got lucky with the injuries, don't think Raúl would have made as much of a difference as Deco here.

Take aways:
1) Need some sexy name that will win games "in a moment of magic"
2) Nobody likes De Rossi. Tough one that as it's a pick anchored on enabling Sammer to do whatever the feck he wants to do.
3) Crespo and Zola both scoring 20+ goals a season in 90s Serie A and in this setup is not good enough
 

Šjor Bepo

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Good game Enigma.

I got lucky with the injuries, don't think Raúl would have made as much of a difference as Deco here.

Take aways:
1) Need some sexy name that will win games "in a moment of magic"
2) Nobody likes De Rossi. Tough one that as it's a pick anchored on enabling Sammer to do whatever the feck he wants to do.
3) Crespo and Zola both scoring 20+ goals a season in 90s Serie A and in this setup is not good enough
1) given you won against Ronaldinho id say you are wrong
2) if Sammer really is what you say he is then he shouldnt really need De Rossi because at the end of the day what he offers in possession isnt good enough IMO to sacrifice another player in the final third that would glue that team all together
3) it had nothing to do with those two, at least IMO, both are great for this draft

congrats on the win btw, it was way to close for me to pull the trigger and i ended up leaning to other side every few hours, reckon the most fair thing to do is to stay away
 

Isotope

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Didn't realize this game was running.

But dang, how do you pick between the two?

Although I might have leaning towards Enigma's, as his has more flair.
 

antohan

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1) given you won against Ronaldinho id say you are wrong
He gave me a good run for my money though!

2) if Sammer really is what you say he is then he shouldnt really need De Rossi because at the end of the day what he offers in possession isnt good enough IMO to sacrifice another player in the final third that would glue that team all together
Yeah, need the right one though. Zola behind Crespo and Cavani was just one more isolated player if you can't get the ball in the first place.

I did think about putting Balakov there and giving it for granted he would drop back in support and start moves from deep but I could see the argument being everything Enigma said about him being a different player at Stuttgart, all the while with me quite clearly displaying the Stuttgart one on the teamsheet. Thought it was far better (more intellectually honest, basically) to clearly position him in the same version and way I expected him to play and contribute.

Inclined to agree though that playing a "Sammer safety net" should be unnecessary. Teams often just have the single pair of CBs staying deeper. I would be more comfortable with that if the other two midfielders weren't as gung-ho as Balakov and Lucho though, Sammer would quite rightly think "OK, I'm staying put here as these two buggers are not going to get any protection otherwise"

3) it had nothing to do with those two, at least IMO, both are great for this draft

congrats on the win btw, it was way to close for me to pull the trigger and i ended up leaning to other side every few hours, reckon the most fair thing to do is to stay away
Crespo vs Cavani has been doing my head in all week. Cavani I expect people to have a far clearer idea of what they get, but that also involves him being very willing to drop back in support and Zola was never going to pin back a pair of CBs. Even if specifically instructed not to, I could see people imagining I end up backs-against-the-wall. Peak Crespo does exactly what I need, but the danger is people just picture the off-peak poacher/fox-in-the-box who can't really lead the line properly.

Is Raúl back the next game @Physiocrat ? Does someone else get injured for next turn?
 

Physiocrat

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@antohan

There will be another round of players injured excluding round 1 and 2 and the two reinforcements. It could be round 7 again but unlikely