Nostalgia Draft - SF: Isotope vs harms

With all players in their 3 year peaks, which team would win this game?


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Synco

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Team Isotope ------------------------------------------- Team harms



Team Isotope

Additions of Frank Rijkaard (for his defensive nous) and Denis Irwin (attacking threat) further enhance the Team’s balance and quality.

The Team lined up in a normal 4-4-2/4-4-1-1 formation that turn into 4-2-3-1 when having the ball. The Team has tactical identity of devastating pace, ability to make key passes from almost every position, the use of inside runs from wide, and drifting position of forwards.

The attack are led by Ronaldo, Kaka, and Figo. All are Ballon d’Or winners within their stated peak periods.

Ronaldo: Ballon d'Or 1997, 2002; World Player of the Year 1996, 1997, 2002
YearGameGoalAssist
1996-97575612
1997-98654610
1998-9936197
Kaka: Ballon d'Or 2007; UEFA Team of the Year 2006, 2007, 2009
YearGameGoalAssist
2006-07622413
2007-08502317
2008-09401715
Luis Figo: Ballon d'Or 2000, World Player of the Year 2001
YearGameGoalAssist
1999-00612117
2000-01652227
2001-02561717

Battle Review

When on defence

  • Harms attack are up against the rock solid Bergomi-Ferrara-Montero-Irwin, rearguard by the imposing midfield of Rijkaard-Vieira. Ferrara-Montero is a proven partnership of that great Juventus side. Brilliant trio (Dunga-Iniesta-Medieta) on the ball and decent enough off it but they are up against two towering physical units in Rijkaard-Vieira, and the sheer explosiveness of Kaka. Let's not forget, Vieira went toe to toe with Keano of all people. Do Iniesta and Mendieta have the physicality or the defensive prowess to deal with Vieira's & Rijkaard's exquisite blend of power and flair?

  • Adding to Rijkaard & Vieira as two immense defensive presences, are the industry of Donadoni and Figo dropping back and working as a midfield unit off the ball.

When attacking
  • Please note that if Harms’ midfield overcommits, an isolated Dunga will find it tough to keep up with Kaka's sheer explosiveness. Dunga was a good all round midfielder but his one weakness was his glaring lack of pace, and Kaka is primed to expose it.

  • Dunga's lack of pace could be exposed against Kaka. A supporting CM with defensive nous (ala Vieira/Schweinsteiger/Vidal etc) could have helped out Dunga against Kaka but not Iniesta or Mendieta. Both of whom were known for their work rate, not so much for their defensive nous. In the sense that they are brilliant as the 3rd CAM in a midfield trio alongside a balanced CM. Not 2 of them together at the same time.

  • Battle on the flanks is equally interesting. On the left flank, Donadoni-Irwin axis will be against (a possibly out of position) Beckham. With Figo on the other flank against Evra (who need to be cautious going forward).

  • Also, Ronaldo already has history of getting the better of Rio (not a prime Rio but not prime R9 either).

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Team harms

Yes, I'm going with 3-5-2 again. And yes, it still has the option of transforming to 4-4-2, even though it's a more loop-sided 4-4-2 than the previous one.

Billy Costacurta was picked as he doesn't only have an impeccable reputation as a centre back, being an integral part of the greatest defense that club football had ever seen, but also has experience of covering for right back — even though I really hoped that Tassotti wouldn't get injured. The most notable of those would be in the infamous 2003 CL final between AC Milan and Juventus, arguably the most boring final in history of the competition, but that's a good thing when you're assessing defensive performances. So, tactically, I really like him here.

Both Andrés Iniesta and Gaizka Mendieta fit into my niche obsession — central midfielders that feel very comfortable out wide and often operate in the inside/outside wide channels (Bonhof, Lerby, young Schuster, Neeskens, Breitner etc.). They are very different players — and they have very different partners. Iniesta has Evra (whom Ferdinand very appropriately described as "the best left-back of our generation between the boxes") who is perfect for the potential interplay and one-twos, as well, as a peak Cristiano who still had a lot of flair and creativity left in him. On the right, Mendieta is going to be doing his best Robson impersonation (really, this is the closest player that I can compare him to — although with a tendency to peel out wide that Robson didn't have; obsessively chasing the ball all over the pitch, making last-ditch tackles only to score from a cross 30 seconds later...) & Beckham is going to play his natural game. They're different enough to compliment each other instead of getting in each other's way, but they are also comfortable enough in multiple roles to comfortably interchange positions if they'll feel the need too.

In Sheva I get one of the most dynamic & clinical strikers of all-time and my personal football hero. He has a tendency of creating fruitful forward partnership — from Protasov to Inzaghi, and in him Cristiano will find a perfect partner. Sheva will still act as the main striker, allowing Cristiano more freedom (something that I overlooked in the previous set up where Cristiano would've been forced to play like the 2015'th version of himself), his off-the-ball runs are brilliant and he is more than good enough creatively to provide assists to Cristiano, even though he's not a selfless Santa's little helper like Benzema. He's also an absolute genius on his own who had proved himself in the toughest league possible — and yes, L. Ronaldo did what he did and he did it better, but Sheva came about as close as a human can to that level of performance. Here's a beauty that he scored against Juventus side with Ferrara, Montero, Thuram, Buffon, Davids etc.

Crucial advantage
Overall, it's hard to speak ill of Isotope's team as it's simply brilliant, especially the Ronaldo-Kaka duo, but I believe that I have a crucial advantage in one area — goalkeepers. In Čech I have genuinely one of the greatest keepers of his time at his very best, while Iso's choices are relatively underwhelming compared to mine.

Petr Čech (2004-2007)

Simply incredible goalkeeper. Not the flashiest one, but his control of the box was simply unparalleled. Schmeichel will always be my choice if only for a sentimental value, but Čech has a very strong claim on being the greatest PL goalkeeper ever if we combine the level of his performances with his incredible longevity.
  • Most clean sheets in a season for Chelsea: 28 clean sheets in 2004–05.
  • Most consecutive clean sheets for Chelsea in all competitions: 7 in 2005–06 (shared record)
  • Most Premier League clean sheets in a season: 24 in 2004–05.
  • Best European Goalkeeper: 2005, 2007
  • UEFA Club Football Awards Best Goalkeeper: 2005, 2007
  • UEFA European Championship Team of the Tournament: 2004
  • Premier League Golden Glove: 2004–05
  • PL record of 1,025 minutes without letting in a goal (later beaten by VDS)
Nemanja Vidić (2008-2011)

I doubt that I need to talk much about him. Integral part of our greatest ever defensive unit, fire to Ferdinand’s ice, fearless and fearsome captain, he’ll fecking murder you (I’m legally obliged to specify that he actually won’t).
  • Premier League Player of the Season: 2008–09, 2010–11
  • Sir Matt Busby Player of the Year: 2008–09
  • Manchester United Players' Player of the Year: 2008–09
  • ESM Team of the Year: 2008–09, 2010–11
  • PFA Team of the Year: 2008–09 Premier League, 2010–11 Premier League
  • FIFA FIFPro World XI: 2009, 2011
Rio Ferdinand (2006-2009)

Rolls-Royce of a defender, he really had it all — pace, power, composure & leadership ability. Sometimes it felt simply unfair to the opposition when Rio would gracefully and visibly effortlessly break their attack & stride forward with the ball at his feet.

Alessandro Costacurta (1992-1995)

I'm not sure how long should I make this write-up as surely everyone knows him. This is his absolute peak — he has his three seasons with the most appearances for AC Milan, wins the 1993/94 Serie A with an astonishing record of 15 goals conceded and becomes a mainstay in Italy's national side, most notably shining throughout the 1994 World Cup (he missed the final due to suspension though).

Patrice Evra (2008-2011)

The integral part of our best ever defensive unit and all-round nice guy. After 2011 he started getting a bit dodgy in defense but before that he was absolutely brilliant — Neville appropriately named him the best fullback in the world between two boxes. You can find a more productive player in the final third, you can find a sturdier defender, but you'd find it hard to find a player that influence the overall play more than Uncle Pat.

Dunga (1992-1995)

A player that got a whole era named after him! «Dunga Era» was a bit of a misrepresentation of him to be honest, he was not just a thug, but a very technically refined player with an outstanding passing range — even with an outside of his boot. Still, I can’t ask for a better player to patrol the zone in front of my defense. Scarily consistent, physical, with methodically accurate passing — with his performance in the World Cup final of 1994 being the highlight of that era.


Gaizka Mendieta (1998-2001)

Becoming UEFA Club Midfielder of the Season is no mean feat — let alone doing it twice in a row while competing with peak Redondo, Keane and Davids. Before his inexplicable failure at Lazio Mendieta was on his way to becoming a modern version of Johan Neeskens — starting out as a right back he developed in a fantastic all-rounded midfielder with endless energy, great passing range & dribbling and, of course, a special knack for scoring all sorts of goals. His performances from that peak period were borderline genius — winning multiple trophies with Valencia & leading them to two consecutive Champions League finals. Maybe I’ll do a gif of a moment from the game against Real Madrid that explains him the best — first he makes a last-ditch tackle on Raúl, who is already getting ready to shoot & a minute later he finds himself on the other side of the pitch, scoring the first goal of the game. Mendieta in a nutshell.

David Beckham (1998-2001)

The man could run for days, created chance after chance with incredible consistency and scored some crucial goals — both from free kicks and from an open play. Cristiano would've loved playing with him :devil:

Andrés Iniesta (2009-2012)

Don Andrès is football. He doesn’t pull rabbits out of his hat, he pulls out big, beautiful peacocks.

Cristiano Ronaldo (2009-2012)

Weirdly enough, it’s somehow easy to forget just how good he was during his first years in Madrid, especially when you look at him now. He still had that flair & creativity, he was able to beat players for fun & even scored free kicks on a regular basis — all while scoring 50-60 goals per season. Best player in the draft.

Andriy Shevchenko (2003-2006)

Monstrous player at the very peak of his powers, scoring for fun against the toughest defences in the world & shining in Europe. As a post-Soviet citizen I can't love him enough, I won't try to claim him from Ukraine, but he's the best thing that happened to post-Soviet/Slavic football after the disband of the Soviet Union. Fantastic personality as well.
 

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Nothing much to say about Iso's team. Players and tactics look spot on. His CB duo could use an upgrade maybe, but nothing that matters too much.

Harms team is more dicier. It just feels like a 442 shoehorned into a 352. With Figo there, hard to buy VIdic in LCB role. Also Mendieta/Beckham are more similar than complimentary to my liking.

Minor edges here and there, but Iso just feels more balanced and I'm edging towards voting for him as of now.
 

Synco

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@Isotope fantastic team, but what's the reasoning behind leaving (peak!) Schweinsteiger out? Seems like a perfect partner for Vieira to me, and late career Rijkaard/peak Ferrara in central defense would be great as well, imo.
 

harms

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I’m not sure that playing Donadoni was the right decision here, really. He’s not going to be decisive, but after all it’s 2 players against 1 that still won’t have an advantage on the wing, leaving Vieira and Rijkaard against three midfielders.
 

harms

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Harms team is more dicier. It just feels like a 442 shoehorned into a 352. With Figo there, hard to buy VIdic in LCB role.
Evra is on Figo, Vidić is hardly going to play against him. And the fact that you feel like it’s a different formation shouldn’t stop you from assessing it fairly.
 

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I thought @Isotope was going to exploit Tassotti's absence by sticking Ribery on the left. Missed opportunity to massively compromise Beckham's influence while adding to his goal threat.

I've no idea what Zubizarreta is still doing out there at this stage and while Ciro and Paolo are a great pair in front of him, I see them having a tough time dealing with Cristiano and Shevchenko. @harms will score more goals, it's as simple as that.

Mystified that WU Rijkaard keeps getting picked as reinforcement and instant improvement on any role on the pitch, under any tactical setup, when the squads should be strong and mature enough not to require some sort of GOAT John O'Shea having an Indian Summer.
 

Isotope

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@Isotope fantastic team, but what's the reasoning behind leaving (peak!) Schweinsteiger out? Seems like a perfect partner for Vieira to me, and late career Rijkaard/peak Ferrara in central defense would be great as well, imo.
I was thinking about that. But the Ferrara-Montero is a proven partnership for years. And I'm not familiar on how Rijkaard as CB. I watched Ajax CL Final vs Milan, and was really impressed with Rijkaard as DM there.
 

Isotope

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Nothing much to say about Iso's team. Players and tactics look spot on. His CB duo could use an upgrade maybe, but nothing that matters too much.

Harms team is more dicier. It just feels like a 442 shoehorned into a 352. With Figo there, hard to buy VIdic in LCB role. Also Mendieta/Beckham are more similar than complimentary to my liking.

Minor edges here and there, but Iso just feels more balanced and I'm edging towards voting for him as of now.
Thanks. Ronaldo is placed as 2nd striker there to make him look more dangerous. In reality, and in every game, he was LF, which should be way out to the left.

Mine is more straightforward. You get what you see. a 4-4-2/4-4-1-1 with wingers that are comfortable as central midfielders also. Lots of variety in play.
 

Isotope

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I’m not sure that playing Donadoni was the right decision here, really. He’s not going to be decisive, but after all it’s 2 players against 1 that still won’t have an advantage on the wing, leaving Vieira and Rijkaard against three midfielders.
It should be 4 against 3, as Figo and Donadoni are both can come inside, and provide options as creative central midfielders.
 

Gio

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Like Iso's pure counter-attacking set-up. The Vieira/Rijkaard/Kaka midfield with those two-way wide players is custom designed for soaking up pressure and springing on the break.

For Harms I continue to like the midfield unit and the attack packs serious punch.

Apologies for the backseat manager comments coming up. If Schweinsteiger was available, for this tie I'd have been tempted to play him and then move Kaka to the left, although that's squeezing in more quality at the expense of the clean 4-4-1-1 model you have.

Did you consider playing a lopsided 4-3-3 Harms with CR7 higher than Becks? The reason I ask is that each of those defenders are all back 4 men and for me it doesn't quite smell right with them all operating in a 3-5-2. To be fair to Costacurta he's flexible enough to do both, but even he is a Sacchi/Capello back 4 drone.
 

Synco

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Apologies for the backseat manager comments coming up. If Schweinsteiger was available, for this tie I'd have been tempted to play him and then move Kaka to the left, although that's squeezing in more quality at the expense of the clean 4-4-1-1 model you have.
Why do you think it's necessary to move Kaka in that scenario? Bayern's standard setup 09-11 was essentially a 4-4-1-1, and in the NT Schweinsteiger played in a double pivot with a BTB partner as well.

I think you could leave everything else intact with him in the team. (Same goes for the benched Ribery, imo. I'm not sure if his dedication to defensive work is an established fact in draft discussions? Proper 4-4-2 player in my eyes.)

Edit: just realized you may have meant playing him as a third midfielder, in which case the above is off topic.
 
Last edited:

harms

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Apologies for the backseat manager comments coming up. If Schweinsteiger was available, for this tie I'd have been tempted to play him and then move Kaka to the left, although that's squeezing in more quality at the expense of the clean 4-4-1-1 model you have.
Generally I was more wary of a 4-3-3 with Schweiny - Vieira - Rijkaard in midfield and Kaka - Figo - Ronaldo as a free-flowing attacking unit. I really don't think that this set up with 2 wingers gets the absolute best of Ronaldo, I'd rather gave him another body up front to play off of.

Did you consider playing a lopsided 4-3-3 Harms with CR7 higher than Becks? The reason I ask is that each of those defenders are all back 4 men and for me it doesn't quite smell right with them all operating in a 3-5-2. To be fair to Costacurta he's flexible enough to do both, but even he is a Sacchi/Capello back 4 drone.
Harms team is more dicier. It just feels like a 442 shoehorned into a 352. With Figo there, hard to buy VIdic in LCB role. Also Mendieta/Beckham are more similar than complimentary to my liking.
I'm really struggling as to why my set up is so hard to get. The key here is versatility — Beckham's role is that of a wide midfielder, really, especially with his direct opponent Donadoni being the worst player on the pitch. Costacurta will cover that right wing with his quite impressive resume as an occasional right back.

After that this midfield could set up as a loop-sided four (Iniesta - Dunga - Mendieta - Beckham) or even as a three with Beckham/Mendieta pushing further forward & another one covering.


Isotope said:
Dunga's lack of pace could be exposed against Kaka. A supporting CM with defensive nous (ala Vieira/Schweinsteiger/Vidal etc) could have helped out Dunga against Kaka but not Iniesta or Mendieta. Both of whom were known for their work rate, not so much for their defensive nous
What the feck :lol: Watch any game of his and check how often does he cover for his right back or wins the ball back in midfield. I'm not expecting Iniesta to do this as it's obviously not his game, but Mendieta pressed the opponent like crazy and winning the ball back was just as important for him as scoring the goals were. He even started out as a right back.

A glorious tackle to deny Raúl a goalscoring opportunity

Casually clearing out the danger out wide

And there are many other examples from that game alone, I just found two of the most aesthetically pleasing ones.
 

harms

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Thanks. Ronaldo is placed as 2nd striker there to make him look more dangerous. In reality, and in every game, he was LF, which should be way out to the left.


Sorry for the picture quality, but this is Cristiano's 2010/11 seasonal heat map. In reality.

Sheva is leading the line & Cristiano is in a free-roaming role, playing like he wants.
 

Zlatan 7

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First game I’ve Come to take a look at for a while and iso, that’s some team, I’m a sucker for a good 442 anyway but that looks so sweet. I’ve always thought of donadoni used more on the right (even if he could play both) but may be wrong there. I also think harms centre backs are more quality but you have got a known partnership too. Great teams.


Not going to vote yet, I’ll read through the thread first but even though harms team also looks dangerous it’s going to be hard to change my mind.

I’ll edit this, that midfield 3 from harms :drool: I’ve got a soft spot for dunga too.
 

harms

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The most glaring difference between the teams, though, are the goalies. On one hand we have Petr Čech, before the injury destined to be the next all-time great and even after that ending up arguably the greatest Premier League keeper of all-time (personally I'd still give it to Schmeichel, but it's quite close) with incredible record in big games against big players. It took Messi 10 games to finally score against him and that was already when Čech was an Arsenal player. In another we have... I won't put it better than anto — a significantly weaker keeper even when peak level is considered, but this is an already over-the-hill Zubizarreta.

ROOTED TO THE SPOT
The definition of Andoni Zubizarreta. A great shot-stopper on the completely wrong side of the cut off.

Ever since Cruyff took over at Barcelona, he had been insisting on the need for him to come off his line and closer to the edge of the box, as his teams of course played with a high line. Zubi however was horrendous on the ball, so much so that Cruyff made him participate in rondos, with Zubi famously complaining it made him feel incompetent and that he was the victim of bullying from his gaffer.

It wasn’t all that bad so long as he could just pick the ball up, but then in the Summer of 1992 (the cut off point were his “peak” here apparently starts) the backpass rule was introduced. Zubizarreta could no longer pick up the ball and had to rely on his terrible footwork. Lots of keepers and backlines had a hard time adapting to it, but I don’t remember a single goalkeeper suffering that rule as much as Zubizarreta did. The inevitable outcome was by the end of the 92-93 season Andoni, who always favoured standing under the posts -as shotstoppers like De Gea inevitably do- no longer ventured out of the six-yard box. Not ever, not under any circumstances.

With Barca still playing a high line, this meant every single time a rival broke through it in possession or to run onto a ball over the top, it wasn’t a one on one as much as it was an execution. After Barca lost 4-3 to Atlético (after being 3-0 up) late in 1993, Cruyff had had enough and benched Spain’s starting keeper to play Busquets’ obscure daddy instead… until of course they lost again and everyone was screaming bloody murder at Zubizarreta being on the bench so he got reinstated.

Zubizarreta’s contract ended in June 1994, Cruyff was so enamoured with his peak form he made no attempt to renew it and, the morning after he shipped four goals in the Champions League Final, he was told he should look for another club. On the team bus. Some peak that.

All that said, Zubi is lucky the defence in front of him is unsuited (also outright unwilling, in nowhere-near-peak Bergomi’s case) to play a high line here. The problem however is then passed on to the space between backline and midfield.
As said, in Cruyff's Dream Team, Zubizarreta was Cruyff's worst nightmare and more so after the backpass rule was introduced (and this era starts right after it). Cruyff wouldn't stop raving about Ajax's keeper but obviously couldn't do feck all about that as he was already having a hard time juggling Laudrup, Koeman, Stoichkov and Romario. It's all well documented, more than a wekaness, it means you have picked a keeper that massively compromises you tactically. Fortunately, the backline isn't the sort that would leave him too exposed, it's the space between midfield and defence that will be exposed instead.

You can't just randomly pick keepers and defenders, stick them there and say "good keeper, good defenders, played for big teams", they actually have to be coherent with what you are trying to do elsewhere on the pitch. They aren't. Reminds me of this.



Re: being Spain's #1 until 1998... For starters, Spain didn't play like Barca, they played a 5-3-2. Still, since you bring it up, it did show that -as usual- they held on to a past it keeper for far too long, or have you never seen this either?


That goal ultimately knocked Spain out in 1998.
 

Synco

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I was thinking about that. But the Ferrara-Montero is a proven partnership for years. And I'm not familiar on how Rijkaard as CB. I watched Ajax CL Final vs Milan, and was really impressed with Rijkaard as DM there.
Cheers, I see. Thing is, I simply love Rijkaard at CB, and I think a relative loss of athleticism/pace doesn't matter much for him there. (Not so sure about a midfield two in that regard).
 

Gio

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What the feck :lol: Watch any game of his and check how often does he cover for his right back or wins the ball back in midfield. I'm not expecting Iniesta to do this as it's obviously not his game, but Mendieta pressed the opponent like crazy and winning the ball back was just as important for him as scoring the goals were. He even started out as a right back.
Yeah. I gave up picking Mendieta a long time ago because I didn't feel he got his dues relative to just how barnstorming he was at his peak. Winning UEFA midfielder of the year twice in a row when Keane, Davids, Redondo, Effenberg, Vieira, Seedorf, Cocu, Luis Enrique etc were in their prime. Rangers had a good midfield at the time and we bossed Effenberg's Bayern and the Parma midfield, but Mendieta was just operating on a different level. Think that Valencia team is under-rated generally.
 

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I voted isotope but just changed to harms, I can’t look past that midfield, it looks a stronger team imo even though ISO’s caught my eye more to begin with
 

harms

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Another minor point — it's not Cristiano's most likeable trait, but he fecking loves drawing fouls on him. Same as Iniesta, who is basically immune to any pressure, Sheva, who loved to burst forward, leaving defenders behind or Mendieta (when I did my compilation, I decided to count the fouls on him made by Real Madrid players — they've tackled him 10 times during one game!).

When you have Paolo Montero, the record-holder of the most red cards in Serie A's history on the other side... And even if he won't get sent off, I have David Beckham on free kick duty :drool:

 

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Why wasn't Mendieta able to regain his Valencia level? Was it a dedication issue? I never paid much attention to what was being said about him after Lazio.
 

Šjor Bepo

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Another minor point — it's not Cristiano's most likeable trait, but he fecking loves drawing fouls on him. Same as Iniesta, who is basically immune to any pressure, Sheva, who loved to burst forward, leaving defenders behind or Mendieta (when I did my compilation, I decided to count the fouls on him made by Real Madrid players — they've tackled him 10 times during one game!).

When you have Paolo Montero, the record-holder of the most red cards in Serie A's history on the other side... And even if he won't get sent off, I have David Beckham on free kick duty :drool:

Are you sure about that? No chance in hell Ronaldo gives freekicks to anyone.
 

harms

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Why wasn't Mendieta able to regain his Valencia level? Was it a dedication issue? I never paid much attention to what was being said about him after Lazio.
He himself explained it this way:

Mendieta said:
In those 2 years (Lazio & Barca — harms) I've had 6 chairmans, 6 presidents and 6 managers and that sums it up
I'm not sure if those numbers are correct, but he expands on that in this podcast (from 14:40):

https://www.planetfootball.com/quic...rca-chaos-joining-boro-the-broken-metatarsal/

At Barca it was a year of a transition and that's true, at Lazio it was a year of adaptation. They've lost Nedved, Veron, Salas & Ravanelli and signed 7 new players. They've sacked their first manager a month into new season. He still shouldn't have flopped as bad as he did though, that dive in form was simply inexcusable.

edit:

Also a good take on the issue
In the end it was Lazio who secured his signature, forking out £30 million to replace the Old Trafford-bound Juan Sebastián Verón. The sixth most expensive transfer in football history saw Mendieta join Alessandro Nesta, Diego Simeone and Hernán Crespo in the Italian capital. Despite selling Pavel Nedvěd to Juventus, the Romans hoped to build an empire at home and abroad under the president and magnate Sergio Cragnotti. It wasn’t long, however, before Mendieta’s dreams began to crumble alongside those of his team.

Coach Dino Zoff had been reluctant to use his new Spanish midfielder, starting him on the bench whilst he adapted to life in calcio. An indifferent start was made worse when Zoff was sacked, and his replacement put an end to Mendieta’s Lazio career before it had even started.

Alberto Zaccheroni largely ignored a player who, at the time, was Spain’s most expensive footballing export, preferring the likes of Fabio Liverani and Stefano Fiore in his starting line-up. A desperate campaign was plagued by Lazio’s perilous financial state, as they finished well below the Champions League places.

The Lazio fans needed a scapegoat, and the pricey, disappointing Mendieta suited that purpose well. As The Guardian’s John Carlin noted, the Lazio faithful were less than kind to their new midfielder, with Gazzetto dello Sport even describing him as a ‘terminally ill patient’. A career that had been on a star-ward trajectory seemed, for the first time, to be crashing back to Earth.

Mendieta’s only refuge was the thought of the forthcoming World Cup in Asia, and his inclusion in José Antonio Camacho’s squad offered a chance for footballing redemption. His horrible year had been worsened as Valencia went on to secure a stunning league triumph in his absence, but as Spain kicked off their tournament against Paraguay, the Basque had a chance to remind the world of his quality.

His performance against South Africa exemplified his enduring ability as he set up Raúl’s opener before converting a glorious free-kick. His contribution against Ireland in the second round was equally crucial, scoring the winning penalty off the bench to quash a spirited performance from Mick McCarthy’s men.

Unfortunately for Mendieta and his countrymen, this was where the romance ended. South Korea’s victory in the quarter-finals is still lamented in the tree-lined avenues of the Spanish capital 14 years later, but for Mendieta, it was back to porridge. He returned to Lazio, and both the club and the player were desperate for a way out.

Louis van Gaal was his salvation, taking him on loan at Barcelona for the 2002-03 season. The Dutchman was in his second stint at the club and Mendieta’s signature was captured alongside that of the tragic goalkeeper Robert Enke, as well as Argentines Juan Román Riquelme and Juan Pablo Sorín.

The signings made little difference for van Gaal, who was sacked in January after an uninspired campaign saw them chasing the tails of Real Madrid and surprise package Real Sociedad. Mendieta would be victim once again to timing, his spell at Barcelona falling into a particularly fallow period for a club that was in the dying embers of the Joan Gaspart era.

The following year, another Joan would begin the Laporta revolution to give us the Barcelona we know today. In truth, however, Mendieta was solid and unspectacular for a team that was struggling for an identity and purpose.
 
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harms

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Are you sure about that? No chance in hell Ronaldo gives freekicks to anyone.
Yeah. We'll have a Mourinho/Ronaldo relationship, which seems fitting considering the picked time period. He'll try to get rid of me at the end of the season, but I don't care at that point — and Ronaldo is too obsessed with winning to throw a tantrum mid-season.

I'm actually willing to give him free kicks from certain areas, seeing as he was still a brilliant free-kick taker at that point, but from most points, and especially from wide areas, it's Becks all the way.
 

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I'm really struggling as to why my set up is so hard to get. The key here is versatility — Beckham's role is that of a wide midfielder, really, especially with his direct opponent Donadoni being the worst player on the pitch. Costacurta will cover that right wing with his quite impressive resume as an occasional right back.

After that this midfield could set up as a loop-sided four (Iniesta - Dunga - Mendieta - Beckham) or even as a three with Beckham/Mendieta pushing further forward & another one covering.
I get your setup, just feeling out on the players in that role. As a flat 4-4 it works pretty well (imo better than current way the team is depicted). I just see way too many overlaps between Mendieta and Beckham. In a 4-4-2 there might be more delineation.
 

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Cheers, I see. Thing is, I simply love Rijkaard at CB, and I think a relative loss of athleticism/pace doesn't matter much for him there. (Not so sure about a midfield two in that regard).
It's strange that with Ajax, he looked stronger. And if you rate him as CB, then he's at home ini here, as his main purpose is defending.
 

Isotope

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I voted isotope but just changed to harms, I can’t look past that midfield, it looks a stronger team imo even though ISO’s caught my eye more to begin with
Agreed that harms midfield is awesome. But once they overcommitted on attack, Vieira can launch long ball (as he has done it with Arsenal). They only has Dunga to protect the defence. It's Kaka's explosiveness vs Dunga's lack of mobility, and Figo against Vidic or Evra. Ronaldo has a good track record against Rio also.

History shows that Barca's Iniesta was struggling against the compact midfields of Bayern, Chelsea, and Inter in the past. Even when they have Xavi and Messi who were excellent in tight space.

Then you see that main reason Mendieta was successful at Valencia, because (almost) everything went through him in midfield. Here he has to share it with Iniesta.
 
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harms

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They only has Dunga to protect the defence. It's Kaka vs Dunga, and Figo against Vidic or Evra. Ronaldo has a good track record against Rio also.
I love that you literally write off one of my defenders with this little "or" and another one simply doesn't exist.

History shows that Barca's Iniesta was struggling against the compact midfields of Bayern, Chelsea, and Inter in the past. Even when they have Xavi and Messi who were excellent in tight space.
You have a midfield 4 with your forwards barely participating in defensive side of the game, how is it similar to Bayern, Chelsea or Inter. Is Iniesta going to struggle to find space for some reason? I'm also not sure about him struggling unless you're talking about the game against treble-winning Bayern that happened when Barca itself was in disarray.

Against Chelsea Iniesta scored the winning goal, playing in a team with 10 men. And that team had a midfield of Essien, Ballack & Lampard, not Kaka.
In the games against Mourinho's Inter Iniesta struggled so much that he didn't even play in any of those two legs...
 

Isotope

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Another thing between Mendieta - Iniesta duo, Valencia and Barcelona have different style of football, where both shine. Mendieta in direct style team, Iniesta in tiki-taka team (CLub and NT).
So then you put them together, question rise if both are compatible.
 

Isotope

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I love that you literally write off one of my defenders with this little "or" and another one simply doesn't exist.


You have a midfield 4 with your forwards barely participating in defensive side of the game, how is it similar to Bayern, Chelsea or Inter. Is Iniesta going to struggle to find space for some reason? I'm also not sure about him struggling unless you're talking about the game against treble-winning Bayern that happened when Barca itself was in disarray.

Against Chelsea Iniesta scored the winning goal, playing in a team with 10 men. And that team had a midfield of Essien, Ballack & Lampard, not Kaka.
In the games against Mourinho's Inter Iniesta struggled so much that he didn't even play in any of those two legs...
Barca played multiple times against Chelsea. And on that game you mentioned, Chelsea should've won the game.

Kaka and Ronaldo are reasonably hardworkers. Compare to Cristiano, both look like Edgar Davids.
 

harms

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Speaking about the actual games that happened:

Iniesta struggling against cagey Chelsea (scores a goal, dominates possession & creates multiple chances):

Waltzing around compact Bayern midfield like they're not even there

A mere MotM performance in the World Cup final against midfield three with van Bommel, De Jong and Sneijder
 

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It's strange that with Ajax, he looked stronger. And if you rate him as CB, then he's at home ini here, as his main purpose is defending.
I merely meant the "he lacks pace" criticism I often see directed at center backs above 30. I've rarely seen that as an actual problem with quality defenders, or at least not even close to what's made out of it.

Btw, "not so sure" was meant literally, not as some backhanded dismissal. If you say latter day Rijkaard looked fine for a midfield two, I believe you.
 

harms

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Let's not forget, Vieira went toe to toe with Keano of all people. Do Iniesta and Mendieta have the physicality or the defensive prowess to deal with Vieira's & Rijkaard's exquisite blend of power and flair?
Also this — in 2001 Valencia twice played against Manchester United, drawing both games with Mendieta putting a brilliant performance against Giggs-Scholes-Keane-Beckham midfield. He only lost twice against Keane's Manchester United — once for Valencia against our treble-winning side and once for Middlesbrough.

And a bit of a reminder of how good Mendieta could've been when he turned up even in the later stage of his career:
 

antohan

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Are you sure about that? No chance in hell Ronaldo gives freekicks to anyone.
If it's Becks aiming a free kick into his path at about 2.5m off the ground with laser precision I reckon Cristiano will oblige very willingly.
 

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If it's Becks aiming a free kick into his path at about 2.5m off the ground with laser precision I reckon Cristiano will oblige very willingly.
Late Madrid yes, early Madrid no.
Also, i was talking about freekicks from shooting distances.
 

harms

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Anyways, since this is coming to an end and I don't want to badmouth any of Iso's players aside from Zubi, I'll just leave you guys some Iniesta to enjoy.
The ultimate big-game player :drool:

By receiving the Man of the Match award after Barcelona's victory in the Champions League final win over Juventus this past Saturday, Iniesta became the only footballer to be named Man of the Match in the final games of the FIFA World Cup, UEFA Champions League and the European Championships
 

antohan

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Late Madrid yes, early Madrid no.
Also, i was talking about freekicks from shooting distances.
I know and the point is you mix it up and keep the goalie guessing. Is the ball going to the top corner on his right or is Cristiano reaching it and heading bottom left?

Now add it's a goalie who can't even manage to tip a chip from the touchline over the bar.