Off the ball movement

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We’re so bad at this, it’s so basic & it’s the main reason why we don’t break down low blocks. Our forwards barely fecking move. I don’t even think it’s a laziness thing, it’s a coaching thing. What the feck are we doing in training?

If you watch City there’s so much off the ball movement going on, they just Traveller the opposition every game & have passes on at every angle.
 

pascell

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The players just don't strike me as intelligent enough also, the amount of times Martial and Rashford haven't run the near post to get on the end of a cross is incredible. Ole alluded to this the first few months he took over and 2 years later, they still don't run the near post or score the 'gritty' goals.
 

TrustInJanuzaj

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Tend to agree. Greenwood should be getting in behind 3/4 times per game in a good setup and with his ability he would take one of those chances. The issue is he gets in maybe once every 10 games at the moment and lives off of half chances. I'm fed up with saying this year after year, but if Greenwood played for City he would be banging in the goals right now.
 

spiriticon

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Everybody just wants ball to feet in attack. If they don't get it to feet they stand there and sulk.

Like motherfecker, ok if you want ball to feet you got it, but you bloody well make sure you don't lose it if 3 men are pressing you. Be Messi.

If you don't want to run into space, then you have to be Messi or Ronaldinho. It's that simple.
 

Sky1981

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The players just don't strike me as intelligent enough also, the amount of times Martial and Rashford haven't run the near post to get on the end of a cross is incredible. Ole alluded to this the first few months he took over and 2 years later, they still don't run the near post or score the 'gritty' goals.
You dont need intelligence. If the moveset is agreed and coached upon.

Run to x from y. Doesnt take a genious
 

Borys

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Single biggest issue we have, both when we're in build-up play and when we're chasing ball.

I used the phrase "chasing ball" because what we do is not pressing. It's one player chasing the ball. Any team can hold the ball in midfield against us.

It looks like all players have no clue how to move off the ball so it's on the coaching staff.
 

pascell

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You dont need intelligence. If the moveset is agreed and coached upon.

Run to x from y. Doesnt take a genious
It is an intelligence thing, it's also a 'predator instinct' thing of an attacking player. If they don't know how to out think the opposition defender to get in a better position than them when the ball arrives, they'll never do it, no matter how much coaching you do.

Do you think we taught Chicharito, van Nistelrooy, van Persie etc where to be and when? You either have it, or you don't and I don't see it with Rashford or Martial.
 

Lentwood

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Our wide forwards are far too wide and far too eager to receive the ball into their feet.

This means that most of their touches are in traditional “winger” positions i.e. out on the touchline midway into the opponents half. This means we only really have the CF as a focal point/in the penalty area, marshalled by two/three CBs.

I would line-up in a genuine 4-3-3, making it clear to the two wide forwards that they are forwards and not wingers. They would have to be prepared to work harder and press harder but when we do get the ball, I’d expect them be receiving it inside the full back, not on the outside. I would also expect them to get into the box more. The amount of times we cross the ball into dangerous areas and our forwards are nowhere in shot is criminal
 

Adcuth

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The thing i don't get, is if we're playing with inside forwards, why do they stay wide like they're actually wingers. Rashford and greenwood should be making runs inside to get in behind with the width coming from the wing backs overlapping. Shaw came inside a lot more than rashford last night. That can't be both players making that choice. It must be what they're told to do. It just means our CF is isolated awaiting a ball in that hardly comes. With Bruno having to come so deep also last night we had naff all up top to create any chances
 

Sky1981

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It is an intelligence thing, it's also a 'predator instinct' thing of an attacking player. If they don't know how to out think the opposition defender to get in a better position than them when the ball arrives, they'll never do it, no matter how much coaching you do.

Do you think we taught Chicharito, van Nistelrooy, van Persie etc where to be and when? You either have it, or you don't and I don't see it with Rashford or Martial.
No. A good coach made that set of movement..players just follow. You dont need to be crufyt to simply follow a set of plan.
 

R'hllor

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Always said, compare our cut backs with some other teams, its like night and day, when our wingers/full backs are doing it, its in full close your eyes and Jesus take a wheel mode.
 

Oranges038

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The players just don't strike me as intelligent enough also, the amount of times Martial and Rashford haven't run the near post to get on the end of a cross is incredible. Ole alluded to this the first few months he took over and 2 years later, they still don't run the near post or score the 'gritty' goals.
That's it for me. It's intelligence and instinct that has to come from the players. You can create patterns of play and triggers and work on them. But too often they just stand there expecting the ball to come to them, not willing or able to make the runs to create space and opportunities for themselves and others.
 

Schmeichel's Cartwheel

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It is an intelligence thing, it's also a 'predator instinct' thing of an attacking player. If they don't know how to out think the opposition defender to get in a better position than them when the ball arrives, they'll never do it, no matter how much coaching you do.

Do you think we taught Chicharito, van Nistelrooy, van Persie etc where to be and when? You either have it, or you don't and I don't see it with Rashford or Martial.
Does Sterling strike you as a predator? No, he just does what Pep tells him too, runs to the back post & gets 20 tap-ins a season.
 

pascell

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No. A good coach made that set of movement..players just follow. You dont need to be crufyt to simply follow a set of plan.
Patterns of play are often found out and then easy to play against. Look at ourselves for example, getting the ball down the wings and the full backs getting forward, we don't have anyone who'll win the ball in the box so it's easy to defend against. Teams are more than happy to see us down the wings, if they flood their box with players then we don't have an answer to the question that the opposition asks.

If you make the same run 5 times a game, the defender marking you is going to pick up on that, that's where the instinct and intelligence of the individual has to come into the equation. Do they keep following the pattern of play blindly knowing the opposition defender is going to win that battle, or do they switch it up, throw a body feint in there, set off earlier or be the dummy run for someone coming in behind them?

Patterns of play will only get you so far.


Does Sterling strike you as a predator? No, he just does what Pep tells him too, runs to the back post & gets 20 tap-ins a season.
Yes he does. Pep isn't going to tell his players to make the same runs over and over, he's more intelligent than that, he'll also want the individual instinct and intelligence of the player to come into play.
 

Bobcat

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Imo its more complicated than that

We still look dangerous on the break. Every time we get space to attack into, we look dangerous, the problem is, we are poor at dealing with packed defenses and we genrally move the ball too slowly and too predictably when trying to build up

  • We try to build from the back, but none of our CB's are really "ball playing" CB's in that sense and chickens out 10/10 if they get chased by an opposing player. Baily might drift past the first line of press from time to time, but hes a lunatic so this is a bit risky. What this leads to is the ball being played wide to AWB/Shaw Every. Single. Time.
  • Fred/McTomminay/Matic offers zero creativity centrally. When they do get on the ball it gets recycled out to the wing or back most of the time
  • Our wide attackers are in diabolical form and not capable of creating anything on their own. Rashford just runs straight into a wall of defenders, Marital strolls around and asks for the ball at his feet, Greenwood looks a bit lost on the right and James is too lightweight and just get hacked down
This means our main attacking outlet right now are our fullbacks. Shaw has been good lately and honestly i think AWB is getting better at going forward, but we are way to predictable and one dimensional right now. I know its a joke on here about players being at their best while injured, but Pogba is a massive miss for us right now.
 

DomesticTadpole

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Seen Donny try to do it, but everybody just ignores him and passes it sideways or backwards. He's far too progressive for this team.
 

Denis' cuff

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They’re all knackered.

so are all the other teams, apart from City with 2x teams to choose from and a Christmas break. Probably Pep’s peps too.
 

NinjaFletch

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I started a thread complaining about this 4 years ago. It hasn't got much better since.

I don't understand why it's not addressed.
 

amolbhatia50k

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It's a combination of things. The more players you have who can pass is well and the more players you have who can manipulate it in tight spaces, the better the collective works and moves. For eg McFred is hardly going to make pick precise passes in between the lines or down the channels.
 

AltiUn

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You must be close to setting a Caf record for threads started in a single season.

It's strange that pass and move is a concept lost on our team, I assume it's tactical, usually that sort of rigidity is indicative of a team that wants to be heavily possession based with players all knowing where they have to be at all times.
 

Sky1981

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Patterns of play are often found out and then easy to play against. Look at ourselves for example, getting the ball down the wings and the full backs getting forward, we don't have anyone who'll win the ball in the box so it's easy to defend against. Teams are more than happy to see us down the wings, if they flood their box with players then we don't have an answer to the question that the opposition asks.

If you make the same run 5 times a game, the defender marking you is going to pick up on that, that's where the instinct and intelligence of the individual has to come into the equation. Do they keep following the pattern of play blindly knowing the opposition defender is going to win that battle, or do they switch it up, throw a body feint in there, set off earlier or be the dummy run for someone coming in behind them?

Patterns of play will only get you so far.



Yes he does. Pep isn't going to tell his players to make the same runs over and over, he's more intelligent than that, he'll also want the individual instinct and intelligence of the player to come into play.
No. If you pop is just attack from the wings boys and cross like hell. Then yes it's easy to counter. That's not tactics. That's 101 spray and pray football.

Tactics are tiki taka. Tactica means your team have several play.

Say play a :
Both flanks occupy fb and make forward runs whenever your midfield general make certain signs, could be a simple showtrick to indicate that a is in play. Dm would push forward and occypy am position while your maestro make runs towards the channel. Your striker would then draw opponent out or could simply harras small cb. Fullback would move forward to midlane on standby if the attack broke down and ready to counter press. Cb would have their own sets of instructions. And so on.

And that's only 1 sets of play. If you have several well designed play your chances to break down opponent would be better. And play like the above are very hard to counter in real time in 90 minutes.

Added on top of that individual brilliance, for instance a winger would improvise and cut right. Or strong cb bombing forward to disrupt man marking.

And that's only one phase of play. You'll need another set of defensive situation. Say who's marking whom if your opponent made a blitz etc.

This is where good tactical manager can improve the team. Simple instructions every non idiot can follow but devastating if pulled as a team. The rest then would fall on execution of each player.

Obviously I'm not pep. But if you think tactical coaching is simply cones and corners then everyone can be a manager.

And also. When you have say 5 sets of play. Your opponent would have to first know which play is in effect, then 6 of them have to move accordingly to counter the opposition, and that's assuming 6 of them can handle 6 of us.

And that's a big ask for half the team to correctly guess which is which and half of them to counter in sync.

Hence defensive teams just try to stack up and soak whatever comes their way. It's up to the attacker to be creative and break teams down

An example is middle ages battle. Every troop and formation consists of simple moves. Be it forward, turn left, turn right or retreat. It's up to the general to combine those simple moves into brilliant maneuvers. Ole doesnt have this sophistication, truth is not many manager does. Some relies on simple yet effective but doesnt work all the time. Some likes to tinker and tries to outmanuver their opponent. Some just soak hard and wary their opponent. But a better tactician would fare better more often than passive one
 
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Sky1981

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He could but he doesn't do it often enough, he lacks that natural instinct to get into those positions.
Anyone can score tap ins. The key is to make that tap ins conditions in the first place.

Tap ins while looking easy is a combination of a lot of movements.

In theory 2 solid cb would not allow a forward to score from tap ins, when messi scores a simple tap ins against us in the cl final that's not because he's brilliant, that's because the whole team work together to send him there unmarked to score that tap ins.

A manager job is to facilitate the scoring condition. Then pray his striker dont miss. But he has to have thay opportunity first.

If rashford plays for pep. He'll be the end of those tap ins opportunity. While Sterling if he plays for ole would not found that tap ins in the first place.
 

Judas

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They’re all knackered.

so are all the other teams, apart from City with 2x teams to choose from and a Christmas break. Probably Pep’s peps too.
That excuse doesn't wash at all. This problem has existed long before this packed season.

We're just lacking footballing intelligence in this team, and it doesn't seem that much comes from the coaching staff.
 

Oranges038

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A manager job is to facilitate the scoring condition. Then pray his striker dont miss. But he has to have thay opportunity first
He can coach patterns and systems to work on. On the pitch the players have to do this, they have to implement these things make the right moves, the right passes, the right runs. I've lost count of the number times there's been an opportunity for a cross and nobody in the box because Martial and Rashford haven't made the runs, or how many times the ball has sailed to the far post and there's no-one there.

You cannot coach that narural strikers instinct, you either have it or you don't, Cavani has it, Ruud, Ronaldo, Hernandez, Sheringham, Solskjaer, Cole and Yorke all had it. Martial and Rashford do not not possess it, they are good players, they score goals but they lack the brains and natural instinct to make the right runs and get in the right attacking positions on the pitch, that would make them really top strikers.

Which is what you need against teams like Palace who know if they deny you space and keep you in front of them then you're not going to create. They don't have to worry about movement off the ball because it is either non existent, simple straight line runs or easy to pick up and cover.
 

red woppit

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There are several reasons, I believe, why we struggle to create clear cut chances, like City do, or Pool used to.
Firstly, our build up play is slow and ponderous most of the time, when we do break quick, as we do occasionally, we more often than not create an opening. Why we play the ball to one of our forwards, then play it all the way back to our CB's I'll never know.
Forward runs, looking for a ball over the top or through, we do try occasionally, but we don't do this enough.
Movement of our forwards, as the op, is possibly the biggest concern. Only Cavani seems to make these intelligent little runs, and we fail to pick up his movement, so don't get the rewards. It seems we practice a lot of close little one two's, but most of the time there are so many defenders back, it breaks down. When these come off they do look good.
Fatigue is another factor, but mental tiredness more than physical. Bruno and Rashford both look a little jaded, and could do with a rest, but when do we rest them?
 

Eplel

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What is off the ball movement? I've forgotten.
 

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Rashford, James and Greenwood all make runs from time to time, however its easy to get discouraged when none of the midfielders can pick them out. It also doesn't help that Bruno is off radar lately and Pogba is missing.
 

Rozay

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It’s so basic. First-touch and movement are the two fundamentals for being able to move the ball quickly and play through teams.

Been banging on about this for a while, and I paid close attention to it yesterday - but all of our players have to pass the ball too far when they have the ball. You need a little patience and guile to your play. It takes a number of 5-7 yard passes to play through a team - but we want a 20 yard one to open a team up all the time. These are easier to defend and we need to mix it up more.
 

Eplel

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Rashford, James and Greenwood all make runs from time to time, however its easy to get discouraged when none of the midfielders can pick them out. It also doesn't help that Bruno is off radar lately and Pogba is missing.
Problem is that Ole's tactics up front are non-existent, so each player simply moves randomly, if they move at all. Our players fall onto each other most of the time, and there are no clear roles.
 

Sky1981

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He can coach patterns and systems to work on. On the pitch the players have to do this, they have to implement these things make the right moves, the right passes, the right runs. I've lost count of the number times there's been an opportunity for a cross and nobody in the box because Martial and Rashford haven't made the runs, or how many times the ball has sailed to the far post and there's no-one there.

You cannot coach that narural strikers instinct, you either have it or you don't, Cavani has it, Ruud, Ronaldo, Hernandez, Sheringham, Solskjaer, Cole and Yorke all had it. Martial and Rashford do not not possess it, they are good players, they score goals but they lack the brains and natural instinct to make the right runs and get in the right attacking positions on the pitch, that would make them really top strikers.

Which is what you need against teams like Palace who know if they deny you space and keep you in front of them then you're not going to create. They don't have to worry about movement off the ball because it is either non existent, simple straight line runs or easy to pick up and cover.
You can't coach this, you can't coach that. What good is a coach for then?

So tell me, what does coaches do?
 

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Problem is that Ole's tactics up front are non-existent, so each player simply moves randomly, if they move at all. Our players fall onto each other most of the time, and there are no clear roles.
I didn't realize there was synchronized running involved in football and that needed to be coached.
 

Smores

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Even Bruno has given up expecting it. When he first came he'd be pointing and shouting at players to make a run but now he doesn't bother. The same thing appears to be happening to Cavani too.

Either it's a tactical decision to play to feet or our players because they have no instruction just do it because it's easiest.

I often watch our movement because it amazes me. Next time when the ball looks like it's coming to Bruno watch our forwards because 9 times out of 10 they're not even moving. They don't offer an obvious option and then people slate him for losing the ball.

It'd be nice if they moved even to open gaps for others to exploit but no, too much to ask.
 

LovelyLittlePanda

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It is an intelligence thing, it's also a 'predator instinct' thing of an attacking player. If they don't know how to out think the opposition defender to get in a better position than them when the ball arrives, they'll never do it, no matter how much coaching you do.

Do you think we taught Chicharito, van Nistelrooy, van Persie etc where to be and when? You either have it, or you don't and I don't see it with Rashford or Martial.
I disagree that it's not something that can be learned.

Van Persie has said in interviews his off the ball movement is something he learnt and improved at Arsenal. He would bombard the Arsenal defenders with questions and they said they loved defending against him because he was predictable and would always want the ball to his feet. Dude wasn't even striker when he arrived in England. Van Nistelrooy was always a predator, even before he was signed by PSV.

I think our bigger problem is Pogba being the only one capable of spotting the run and making the difficult pass from deep. Why bother running into an offside position and making it less likely to receive the ball if you know Fred/Matic will hesitate or fumble it? You could see in the West Ham cup game that Fred contemplated spotting out VDB's runs a few times only to pick a safer option instead.