Off the ball movement

simplyared

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Watched City the other night. Their whole play is based on off ball movement. Every single player can do it in tight situations. He gets them all to master his "Rondo" on the training ground and they apply it out on the pitch. They seldom lose possession and when they do they win it back. Shaw has been very good at this for us on the left flank. He can pinpoint his pass and put himself in a position to receive the pass. Can't believe how bad our movement was last night. If our players are unfit then the whole coaching staff + Ole need to be shown the door. Now!!
 
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Oranges038

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You can't coach this, you can't coach that. What good is a coach for then?

So tell me, what does coaches do?
Lots of things like awareness, physicality, passing, heading, technique, shooting etc. but they cannot coach brains and instinct, you either have it or you don't.
 

SadlerMUFC

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We’re so bad at this, it’s so basic & it’s the main reason why we don’t break down low blocks. Our forwards barely fecking move. I don’t even think it’s a laziness thing, it’s a coaching thing. What the feck are we doing in training?

If you watch City there’s so much off the ball movement going on, they just Traveller the opposition every game & have passes on at every angle.
Our players show for a pass way too much. they want the ball to feet and then they want to take a player on rather than seeing the space and making the run. It's a huge problem. Amazingly, the player who makes the most runs is the player many say lacks in football intelligence. Daniel James. He is constantly on the move and finds himself in good areas (like his missed header yesterday). There are also several times through out the game where he makes a run past his FB only to have to turn back because the pass didn't come. I personally like him. I also find it amazing how most want to see us score more team goals yet don't like James because doesn't display much individual brilliance...
 

RUCK4444

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Single biggest issue in our attacking play. I’ve been saying it for years, it’s been a major issue going right back to SAF’s time.

At times it improves under Ole, this is when our attack clicks and is free flowing (yes we have played like this at times you hysterical decks.)

But it does revert back to being almost non existent at times. This isn’t helped by the likes of Martial, Rashford and Greenwood who all like to receive the ball to feet rather than make attacking runs off the ball.

I agree this is a recurrent weakness and needs to be properly addressed through coaching. Players who don’t do the basics like provide movement off the ball need to be dropped.
 

UpWithRivers

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Straight lines! We run in straight lines. We go from standing still to running in a straight line. Its just so predictable. No movement at all. Some bottom half teams have better movement then we do. I just dont get why because its the basics of football
 

elmo

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He can coach patterns and systems to work on. On the pitch the players have to do this, they have to implement these things make the right moves, the right passes, the right runs. I've lost count of the number times there's been an opportunity for a cross and nobody in the box because Martial and Rashford haven't made the runs, or how many times the ball has sailed to the far post and there's no-one there.

You cannot coach that narural strikers instinct, you either have it or you don't, Cavani has it, Ruud, Ronaldo, Hernandez, Sheringham, Solskjaer, Cole and Yorke all had it. Martial and Rashford do not not possess it, they are good players, they score goals but they lack the brains and natural instinct to make the right runs and get in the right attacking positions on the pitch, that would make them really top strikers.

Which is what you need against teams like Palace who know if they deny you space and keep you in front of them then you're not going to create. They don't have to worry about movement off the ball because it is either non existent, simple straight line runs or easy to pick up and cover.
That's a whole load of bollocks.

Ronaldo trained and kept working hard on his off ball running that he became one of the best striker in the world.

He went from a player who only played with the ball at his feet to one who barely needs it except when scoring.
 

Carl

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We’re so bad at this, it’s so basic & it’s the main reason why we don’t break down low blocks. Our forwards barely fecking move. I don’t even think it’s a laziness thing, it’s a coaching thing. What the feck are we doing in training?

If you watch City there’s so much off the ball movement going on, they just Traveller the opposition every game & have passes on at every angle.
We've been really bad at this for about a decade.
 

Oranges038

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That's a whole load of bollocks.

Ronaldo trained and kept working hard on his off ball running that he became one of the best striker in the world.

He went from a player who only played with the ball at his feet to one who barely needs it except when scoring.

Ronaldo did, a shining example. There is no comparison between him and anyone currently at Utd, he had the drive to better himself and showed his instinct and intelligence from a young age. This lot are just happy to be here, the are many basic aspects of their game that are still lacking and have not improved.
 

Sky1981

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Lots of things like awareness, physicality, passing, heading, technique, shooting etc. but they cannot coach brains and instinct, you either have it or you don't.
nope. Many players plays differently under different manager, what you listed is just drills, you don't need a manager for that, any college coachs knows how to drill technique.

It seems that you have a strange notions that tactical framework do not exist in football. So let's just agree to disagree here.
 

Sky1981

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Our players show for a pass way too much. they want the ball to feet and then they want to take a player on rather than seeing the space and making the run. It's a huge problem. Amazingly, the player who makes the most runs is the player many say lacks in football intelligence. Daniel James. He is constantly on the move and finds himself in good areas (like his missed header yesterday). There are also several times through out the game where he makes a run past his FB only to have to turn back because the pass didn't come. I personally like him. I also find it amazing how most want to see us score more team goals yet don't like James because doesn't display much individual brilliance...
or probably they're just clueless at moving without balls
 

Oranges038

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nope. Many players plays differently under different manager, what you listed is just drills, you don't need a manager for that, any college coachs knows how to drill technique.

It seems that you have a strange notions that tactical framework do not exist in football. So let's just agree to disagree here.
Players do not need set patterns and exact instructions for where to run and when, where to be and when, where to pass and when. That's LVG football by numbers bullshit.

Effective off the ball movement requires the players to be able to assess situations and use their brains and instinct to move into the right positions. You cannot replicate these exact situations in training or through coaching, what happens when the patterns or systems don't work out is that you have players like Martial and Rashford who just do not know how to make effective runs.

Which is evidenced by how easy they are to defend against when teams sit back and deny them the room to exert their expertise in straight line running.
 

Denis' cuff

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That excuse doesn't wash at all. This problem has existed long before this packed season.

We're just lacking footballing intelligence in this team, and it doesn't seem that much comes from the coaching staff.
well, that was nothing if not predictable
 

Anustart89

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The players just don't strike me as intelligent enough also, the amount of times Martial and Rashford haven't run the near post to get on the end of a cross is incredible. Ole alluded to this the first few months he took over and 2 years later, they still don't run the near post or score the 'gritty' goals.
And two years into his tenure, he still hasn’t bollocked his strikers into doing something pretty simple that he very openly said he wanted them to do.
 

lex talionis

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The total absence of off the ball movement is my biggest frustration with our players. But this goes back to the Moyes era.
 

elmo

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Ronaldo did, a shining example. There is no comparison between him and anyone currently at Utd, he had the drive to better himself and showed his instinct and intelligence from a young age. This lot are just happy to be here, the are many basic aspects of their game that are still lacking and have not improved.
And that's on the coaching staff because they're accepting medicority and players aren't held accountable depending on who they are.
 

Cheimoon

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Players do not need set patterns and exact instructions for where to run and when, where to be and when, where to pass and when. That's LVG football by numbers bullshit.

Effective off the ball movement requires the players to be able to assess situations and use their brains and instinct to move into the right positions. You cannot replicate these exact situations in training or through coaching, what happens when the patterns or systems don't work out is that you have players like Martial and Rashford who just do not know how to make effective runs.

Which is evidenced by how easy they are to defend against when teams sit back and deny them the room to exert their expertise in straight line running.
It's exactly what Pep also does though. Or at least, from what I understand, virtually every pattern of play you see City develop, including in the final third, has been rehearsed to some degree. Not to the centimetre obviously, but a lot of coaching is now about drilling all the relevant running patterns and the triggers to initiate them into teams. As it is right now, teams that let their players 'free to express themselves' are just not very likely to consistently win the big prizes - except if your players are just that much better than your opponents'. I think this is often underestimated. Football is really not such a simple game anymore at the very top (where United are as well).
 

Sky1981

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Players do not need set patterns and exact instructions for where to run and when, where to be and when, where to pass and when. That's LVG football by numbers bullshit.

Effective off the ball movement requires the players to be able to assess situations and use their brains and instinct to move into the right positions. You cannot replicate these exact situations in training or through coaching, what happens when the patterns or systems don't work out is that you have players like Martial and Rashford who just do not know how to make effective runs.

Which is evidenced by how easy they are to defend against when teams sit back and deny them the room to exert their expertise in straight line running.
So no. Not Ole's fault. Even Guardiola cant coach this lot.
 

Schmeichel's Cartwheel

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Players do not need set patterns and exact instructions for where to run and when, where to be and when, where to pass and when. That's LVG football by numbers bullshit.

Effective off the ball movement requires the players to be able to assess situations and use their brains and instinct to move into the right positions. You cannot replicate these exact situations in training or through coaching, what happens when the patterns or systems don't work out is that you have players like Martial and Rashford who just do not know how to make effective runs.

Which is evidenced by how easy they are to defend against when teams sit back and deny them the room to exert their expertise in straight line running.
So it’s not Ole’s fault? Of course...
 

Foxbatt

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I didn't realize there was synchronized running involved in football and that needed to be coached.
You didn't? I am surprised. All these players have to play in a set pattern. United did too under SAF. Read Gary Neville's book about how they beat Barca in the QF. Carlos got them to move without the ball practising where each has to be. Top coaches always practice movement off the ball. Right space at the right time. Our players do not move because they do not know what to do when we do have the ball. They know what to do when we do not have the ball.
 

Foxbatt

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Im looking forward to your next thread right after a game, Im hoping for " Our throw ins lack the intelligence required to win the EPL"
Didn't you know that there are coaches for throw ins? How to utilize throw ins for maximum benefit. Look up Thomas Gronnemark. He also coached Liverpool last year. They scored 14 goals from throw in situations.
 

Stack

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Didn't you know that there are coaches for throw ins? How to utilize throw ins for maximum benefit. Look up Thomas Gronnemark. He also coached Liverpool last year. They scored 14 goals from throw in situations.
We need to get him to replace Ole.
 

JakeC

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At some point you have to realize it's coaching, but the last time we saw consistent off the ball movement was under LVG, and it was the tempo of our play that was missing.

I'm still firmly of the belief that you can't build a team around a #10 any more. It has to either be a #6 in a possession based team, or a fullback and opposite side wide forward to set the standard of OTB movement.
 

Sky1981

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At some point you have to realize it's coaching, but the last time we saw consistent off the ball movement was under LVG, and it was the tempo of our play that was missing.

I'm still firmly of the belief that you can't build a team around a #10 any more. It has to either be a #6 in a possession based team, or a fullback and opposite side wide forward to set the standard of OTB movement.
Sometimes just because lvg failed with us doesnt mean he's wrong.

It could be a myriad of different reasons. Could be our players are dumb at that time and lacking the continental foundation that spanish team has. Could be just bad timing. Could be just bad coaching.

For every lvg there's also marco rose and tuchel and klopp.
 

Sky1981

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Didn't you know that there are coaches for throw ins? How to utilize throw ins for maximum benefit. Look up Thomas Gronnemark. He also coached Liverpool last year. They scored 14 goals from throw in situations.
It's delusion to think that top level football leaves lots of things to chance. Every movement and every small details counts in top level football.

Even in big factory small things like which hand you should use to do certain things are calculated for efficiency. I used to work in a 3000 employee garment factory. The level of details they went into to make sure efficiency is out of this world. Even sitting position of sewers is scrutinized.

Every bit counts
 

JakeC

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Sometimes just because lvg failed with us doesnt mean he's wrong.

It could be a myriad of different reasons. Could be our players are dumb at that time and lacking the continental foundation that spanish team has. Could be just bad timing. Could be just bad coaching.

For every lvg there's also marco rose and tuchel and klopp.
We have 2 incomplete teams at the moment.

Rashford----Cavani---Greenwood
------------------Bruno
------------Mct-----------Fred
Shaw---Maguire---Lindelof---AWB
---------------DDG

This team is clearly set up to counter attack. Scott and Fred, as good as they are, are not exceptional ball players.

As building from the back has become more popular, and ball playing CBS have become the meta, it's become more possible to play a double pivot of ball winners, as most good sides would have a defender that can basically play as a deeper lying midfielder and build attacks from our own half. The better teams (City especially) have been able to basically convert their 10s to become 8s

This works in big games, as Bruno will drop deeper as well as finding pockets of space, Scott has a goal in him, and always receives the ball on the half turn, which is an exceptional quality to have in big game when space is hard to earn.

This is the rough edit of a post I'm working on for next week.
 

Wednesday at Stoke

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You didn't? I am surprised. All these players have to play in a set pattern. United did too under SAF. Read Gary Neville's book about how they beat Barca in the QF. Carlos got them to move without the ball practising where each has to be. Top coaches always practice movement off the ball. Right space at the right time. Our players do not move because they do not know what to do when we do have the ball. They know what to do when we do not have the ball.
I’m pretty sure that Neville quote about Queiroz refers to them practicing where to be on defense against Barcelona.

Even in the last game at Chelsea, I’ve seen Rashford make that run into the inside left channel between wingback and right center back from out wide twice when the ball was in midfield only to see it being recycled with a back pass by Fred.

Ole talks about arriving in the box and moving off the ball so much in his interviews that I doubt he’s not stressing that in practice. Just a week ago we were saying the defense is not coached and two clean sheets later, it’s the attack while completely ignoring how awful the individual passing has looked lately.
 

Drainy

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It's about confidence

Frankly the Fred and Matic midfield axis is nowhere close to being gifted enough to break down a low block with incisive passing and the attack knows that better than anyone.
 

Giggsyking

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Ole the manager and off ball movement are two contradicted words. Nobody knows what does he coach the team in training!
Oh I forgot, he is not the day to day coach as his fanboys say, he is just a manager who picks the starting 11.
 

wolvored

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The players just don't strike me as intelligent enough also, the amount of times Martial and Rashford haven't run the near post to get on the end of a cross is incredible. Ole alluded to this the first few months he took over and 2 years later, they still don't run the near post or score the 'gritty' goals.
This should be solved on the training ground. It is a fault and coaching could cure it, or the players are being coached it yet tend to ignore it, which should then be a disciplinary issue. The fact it goes on and on is ridiculous.
 

Bobcat

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Of course off the ball movement is something that can be worked upon and slightly improved with coaching, but imo its fairly limited how much, once a player is 20+ and plays at a senior level

90% of development happens before they become first teamers in the PL, and by then they've had about 10 years of daily coaching by profesionalls. If they struggle with things like off the ball movement, its not like they suddenly are going to figure it out in their 20s and become really good at it

Instinct or footballing IQ cant be thaught imo, not at this level at least.
 

OmarUnited4ever

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I saw it in the Palace game, but only once, when James sneaked into the box to receive Shaw's cross, the way he moved into the space was superb.
 

Sky1981

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Rio: Can you give us some insight? What was the type of thing that you didn't like?
Pep: We ran too much! We were not in the position. We ran too much; everyone moving right, left, left, right, right, moving without knowing exactly what to do with the ball. Our strength is when we have the ball and everyone knows where they are to meet on the pitch. Everyone wanted to attack in four passes, not ten passes. So quick, everyone was too quick. But you have to change rhythm. If you play high rhythm enough you cannot surprise them.

For those saying off the ball movement cant be coached
 

Stig

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Our players show for a pass way too much. they want the ball to feet and then they want to take a player on rather than seeing the space and making the run. It's a huge problem. Amazingly, the player who makes the most runs is the player many say lacks in football intelligence. Daniel James. He is constantly on the move and finds himself in good areas (like his missed header yesterday). There are also several times through out the game where he makes a run past his FB only to have to turn back because the pass didn't come. I personally like him. I also find it amazing how most want to see us score more team goals yet don't like James because doesn't display much individual brilliance...

Excellent post. I totally agree.

I can't understand how Martial and Rashford simply don't make these type of runs. It is very basic football.

We are attacking and Rashford likes to hang about outside the box. What purpose is he serving there ? Why are the coaches not insisting theat they make attacking type of runs or simply not pick them ?

It is all so screamingly obvious but not being addressed
 

MU655

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Patterns of play are often found out and then easy to play against. Look at ourselves for example, getting the ball down the wings and the full backs getting forward, we don't have anyone who'll win the ball in the box so it's easy to defend against. Teams are more than happy to see us down the wings, if they flood their box with players then we don't have an answer to the question that the opposition asks.

If you make the same run 5 times a game, the defender marking you is going to pick up on that, that's where the instinct and intelligence of the individual has to come into the equation. Do they keep following the pattern of play blindly knowing the opposition defender is going to win that battle, or do they switch it up, throw a body feint in there, set off earlier or be the dummy run for someone coming in behind them?

Patterns of play will only get you so far.



Yes he does. Pep isn't going to tell his players to make the same runs over and over, he's more intelligent than that, he'll also want the individual instinct and intelligence of the player to come into play.
But this was coached into him by Guardiola. I remember it being one of Sterling's biggest weaknesses, and it was being pointed out. I think even Sterling said that Guardiola told him to get into the box more. It does make you wonder whether something is missing in training in this regard.

I remember one time Rashford and Martial were just standing next to each other on the edge of the opposition's box facing our goal. I just don't get what they are expecting the midfielders etc. to do in that situation.
 

Foxbatt

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Rio: Can you give us some insight? What was the type of thing that you didn't like?
Pep: We ran too much! We were not in the position. We ran too much; everyone moving right, left, left, right, right, moving without knowing exactly what to do with the ball. Our strength is when we have the ball and everyone knows where they are to meet on the pitch. Everyone wanted to attack in four passes, not ten passes. So quick, everyone was too quick. But you have to change rhythm. If you play high rhythm enough you cannot surprise them.

For those saying off the ball movement cant be coached
All should study Cruijff and his philosophy. It's simple. Players have to be in the right place at the right time. It means if you move into that space you will be marked. If you arrive late you are stretching for the ball and can't control. I saw an interview of him ( not the one on the black board) where he explains how individual players are allowed to express but the ball arrived at the right space at the right time. Pep was playing in that game. He showed how three options are available for the player in possession. How they moved the ball. Koeman in defense, Pep in the pivot and Bakero playing up front and dropping. It was basically the spine of the team and the rest function around them. Virtually you can draw a straight line.
 

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Good off ball movement doesn't just involve "running in behind". I get so tired of hearing how great Rashford's movement is. In reality it's very one dimensional and he kind of sucks at holding his runs, which is why he's offsides constantly. Cavani actually does have great movement in that he's constantly looking for pockets of space in and around defenders. Bruno has great movement as well. Rashford on the other hand just makes the run in behind for a long ball over the top from our below average passing defenders/midfielders, then gets frustrated when they don't play him the ball.

As a team we are way too stagnant in the final 3rd, and I blame much of that on the coaching staff not having specific patterns for players like Martial (who aren't naturally gifted in making/finding space off ball) to run and combine with other attackers. Much of it is just getting the ball to feet and then just producing a moment, whether it's a great cross or dribbling some guys to find a shot. Contrast that with watching City, who constantly have runners all over the place putting pressure on a backline that's trying to switch and cover everyone.
 

mitchmouse

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off the ball movement? Other than Cavani, not sure I see any...
 

Foxbatt

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off the ball movement? Other than Cavani, not sure I see any...
Have a look at Fred. One of the worst in midfield I have seen. He doesn't know what to do when we have the ball. He is always blocked or covered.