Ogden: Six years of mistakes, bad signings and wasted money. Last night was a positive step for Manchester United, but how have they fallen so far?

UpWithRivers

Full Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2013
Messages
3,620
I think Woodward gets more stick than as he deserves. Moyes was asked for by Sir Alex and a number of others and he was the one that started all this crap. Van Gaal, Mourinho and even Ole were all asked for by numerous people and i hindsight its easy to blame him but at the time no one could predict the absolute destruction they all caused. The main thing I blame Woodward for and the Glazers for is not appointing a DOF. If you make a mistake and you can see its not working then fix it. Thats whats unforgivable. Then again if they cant hire the right managers and players can you trust any of them to get the right DOF?
 

Ikon

Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018
Joined
Jun 29, 2017
Messages
2,390
I think Woodward gets more stick than as he deserves. Moyes was asked for by Sir Alex and a number of others and he was the one that started all this crap. Van Gaal, Mourinho and even Ole were all asked for by numerous people and i hindsight its easy to blame him but at the time no one could predict the absolute destruction they all caused.
Ironically, I was about to post something similar.
There is suggestion that Guardiola was the club's choice to replace SAF, but what really happened and what the real agenda was at that meeting in 2013 is anyone's guess now...
The Scot admitted in his 2015 book “Leading” that he took his former rival out for dinner in New York six months before his planned departure in a gesture to suggest Guardiola should apply to take over from him.
But the former Barcelona boss said he completely missed the undertone of the dinner.
“My English in that period was not as good as it is right now – and so maybe I just didn't understand what Sir Alex meant.
We spoke about life, about football, about the Premier League, but there was no message sent to me under the table about United.

But what I do remember is that Sir Alex spoke really fast and it was difficult to understand him, but it was nice because he chose an amazing restaurant – and of course he paid.”
 

Withnail

Full Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2019
Messages
29,333
Location
The Arena of the Unwell
I think Woodward gets more stick than as he deserves. Moyes was asked for by Sir Alex and a number of others and he was the one that started all this crap. Van Gaal, Mourinho and even Ole were all asked for by numerous people and i hindsight its easy to blame him but at the time no one could predict the absolute destruction they all caused. The main thing I blame Woodward for and the Glazers for is not appointing a DOF. If you make a mistake and you can see its not working then fix it. Thats whats unforgivable. Then again if they cant hire the right managers and players can you trust any of them to get the right DOF?
You're neglecting to take into account that it's literally his job so of course the book stops with him.

No one could have foreseen that Van Gaal was passed it or that Mourinho would burn the house down?

He only gets a slight pass in that he is clueless about football so it shouldn't have been his responsibility in the first place. If reports that he's realised this and has taken a step back are to be believed then finally the penny has dropped but it took far too long.
 

Tarrou

Full Member
Joined
May 13, 2013
Messages
25,542
Location
Sydney
Its fecking easy being a sports journalist this is absolutely nothing news.
Theres gotta be thousands of qualified guys who want to be in Ogdens position. It can’t be that easy, surely?

I think the trouble is clubs don’t use journalists to communicate with the fans anymore. The job has become somewhat redundant aside from reporting on the games, so they need to fill a lot of column inches without much new information.
 

JPRouve

can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate
Scout
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
65,354
Location
France
You're neglecting to take into account that it's literally his job so of course the book stops with him.

No one could have foreseen that Van Gaal was passed it or that Mourinho would burn the house down?

He only gets a slight pass in that he is clueless about football so it shouldn't have been his responsibility in the first place. If reports that he's realised this and has taken a step back are to be believed then finally the penny has dropped but it took far too long.
These same reports will tell you that he took a step back in 2015, basically he was only closely involved the year following Bollingbroke's departure and it was still in a limited capacity since a large part of the responsiblities are divided between the head of the academy and the manager.
As for Van Gaal and Mourinho, I didn't think that they would be particularly successful and said so at the time on this forum but it's a bit easy to act as if these two appointments were obviously wrong, these type of appointments happen all the time in pretty all clubs and aren't THE reason behind our issues and therefore shouldn't be emphasized the way we do it.
The way I see it, our issues come from what happened before 2013. The backbone of the team was getting old(Carrick, Evra, Vidic, Van Persie, Ferdinand, Giggs, Valencia and Rooney), the football side of things was basically SAF and Martin Ferguson, the rest of the club was declining and in hindsight leading this club after SAF's retirement was an even worse job that I imagined. In my mind it was a terrible job because the squad wasn't built for the future and the club was too SAF-centric.
Now Woodward as an insider should have known that, he may not have been in a position to make deep changes before 2013 but the moment he got the job, he should have had a plan to fix these, I assume, known issues but his now obvious undecisiveness have seen him try his hardest to not rock the boat and keep things the way they used to be. For me that's why we should blame Woodward, not for hiring managers that were popular appointments but for being a bit spineless.
 

sammsky1

Pochettino's #1 fan
Joined
Feb 10, 2008
Messages
32,841
Location
London
It's a sports article not a dissertation, mate. Perhaps football isn't the place to look for that kind of depth.
Sports acticles can and often do reveal new facts or new ways of looking at things. The subject matter is immaterial.

For a journalist to only regurgitate well known facts in such a long piece is ... well not journalism!
 

Sterling Archer

New Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2016
Messages
4,289
Sports acticles can and often do reveal new facts or new ways of looking at things. The subject matter is immaterial.

For a journalist to only regurgitate well known facts in such a long piece is ... well not journalism!
That's a pretty unfair criticism. Half this thread is posters reading about some of these incidents for the first time.

I'd also say my expectation from the title itself was just a summary of post SAF United to-date. And that's what I think we got.
 

JPRouve

can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate
Scout
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
65,354
Location
France
Certainly was. We've all bought into the narrative that Di Maria was a central cause of squad disharmony. Turns out he was immensely popular and just had a Rivaldo relationship with Louis.
Did we? Some bought into it, the same way some are now doing with some players but not everyone.
 

Sandikan

aka sex on the beach
Joined
Mar 14, 2011
Messages
52,712
Yeah that one stood out for me too. Incredible. How did we ever think he was the right man?
I say this with no "I told you alll" about me at all, but i was in dread the second anyone linked him, and was utterly gutted when the story broke.

It was just utterly madcap.

It was a few weeks after we'd briefed what the new manager had to have, experience wise, and he had none of it!

It seemed to be based on a ludicrous premise that we had a manager of the same nationality, so automatically Moyes would do as well, and stay as long.

It was utterly ludicrous. And set us back a decade.

I still wish we'd had Mourinho straight after, instead of when we got him.
 

Sandikan

aka sex on the beach
Joined
Mar 14, 2011
Messages
52,712
If anything it shows what Moyes thought of United. He's a guy largely on the periphery that would expect a loss whenever playing United and in his mind he though United were that big and that strong that they could buy whoever they wanted from anyone. With that mentality he gets thrown the job and expects woodward to line up all 3 of those transfers like they were a given. Crazy what the world/moyes thought of us
Not sure he ever thought we'd get all 3, but I just find the idea that we'd laid the deals on, just waiting for him to pick, like some spoiled kid in a toy shop, utterly ridiculous.

For a guy who clearly wasn't that confident, surely he must have thought, hmmm is Ronaldo really going to come back from ripping Spain up, to play for me!
 

Withnail

Full Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2019
Messages
29,333
Location
The Arena of the Unwell
I say this with no "I told you alll" about me at all, but i was in dread the second anyone linked him, and was utterly gutted when the story broke.

It was just utterly madcap.

It was a few weeks after we'd briefed what the new manager had to have, experience wise, and he had none of it!

It seemed to be based on a ludicrous premise that we had a manager of the same nationality, so automatically Moyes would do as well, and stay as long.

It was utterly ludicrous. And set us back a decade.

I still wish we'd had Mourinho straight after, instead of when we got him.
I'm not sure you'll find anyone who was excited by Moyes coming in. It's still baffling that they thought he was the man.

I'd rather have had Pochettino at that stage as I was never a fan of Mourinho. Poch was apparently considered and Ferguson was quoted as saying he was the best manager in the league years ago, wasn't he?
 

jem

Full Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
Messages
9,258
Location
Toronto
To me, this was like the kind of article you typically get in the Athletic. It's lengthy, it seems profound, but really it didn't tell us anything we didn't already know, other than some unnamed players preferring Kagawa to Mata and Woodward apparently being a nice guy.
 

Sandikan

aka sex on the beach
Joined
Mar 14, 2011
Messages
52,712
I'm not sure you'll find anyone who was excited by Moyes coming in. It's still baffling that they thought he was the man.

I'd rather have had Pochettino at that stage as I was never a fan of Mourinho. Poch was apparently considered and Ferguson was quoted as saying he was the best manager in the league years ago, wasn't he?
Tonnes of people were championing him and pleased he'd arrived. It was truly baffling.

Yes of course others put a brave face on it.

It looked ok for about 2 games, the charity shield and that 4-1 away win v Swansea.
We thought maybe we could get away with it.
That didn't last long and it was like a bad alternate reality dream.
 

Withnail

Full Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2019
Messages
29,333
Location
The Arena of the Unwell
Tonnes of people were championing him and pleased he'd arrived. It was truly baffling.

Yes of course others put a brave face on it.

It looked ok for about 2 games, the charity shield and that 4-1 away win v Swansea.
We thought maybe we could get away with it.
That didn't last long and it was like a bad alternate reality dream.
Fair enough, I wasn't on here at the time. Anyone I spoke to was in the 'oh dear god no' or fingers crossed camps.
 

Zed 101

Full Member
Joined
Jun 27, 2014
Messages
1,391
Someone at the Harvard business school will write their graduate thesis on one of the greatest episodes of failed executive leadership in sports history. It's been a disaster, though we're still no New York Knicks.
And yet we still made record profits last year, I think they might well write their thesis on the dichotomy of success and failure from the executive management of a sports business.
 

Sparky_Hughes

I am Shitbeard.
Joined
Mar 26, 2008
Messages
17,537
I think Woodward gets more stick than as he deserves. Moyes was asked for by Sir Alex and a number of others and he was the one that started all this crap. Van Gaal, Mourinho and even Ole were all asked for by numerous people and i hindsight its easy to blame him but at the time no one could predict the absolute destruction they all caused. The main thing I blame Woodward for and the Glazers for is not appointing a DOF. If you make a mistake and you can see its not working then fix it. Thats whats unforgivable. Then again if they cant hire the right managers and players can you trust any of them to get the right DOF?
He doesn't get enough stick, there should be feck off Woodward chants at each game, his car should be egged on the way out of old Trafford, he should be too damn ashamed and embarrassed by his utter feckwittery and incompetence to set foot there again.
 

Alabaster Codify7

New Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2015
Messages
6,553
Location
Wales
I don't wish harm on Ed or anyone but really, his presence should be greeted with fire. Make it known we don't want him here. He seems to attend games with no issue at all. Just acceptance. Ole is apparently not the problem so the fans won't turn. Okay
Well the apparent problem is here. Why not make it known you don't want him here?
Nothing
Fans are just accepting everything with no kickback. That is how this type of decline happens
 

Suedesi

Full Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2001
Messages
23,866
Location
New York City
These same reports will tell you that he took a step back in 2015, basically he was only closely involved the year following Bollingbroke's departure and it was still in a limited capacity since a large part of the responsiblities are divided between the head of the academy and the manager.
As for Van Gaal and Mourinho, I didn't think that they would be particularly successful and said so at the time on this forum but it's a bit easy to act as if these two appointments were obviously wrong, these type of appointments happen all the time in pretty all clubs and aren't THE reason behind our issues and therefore shouldn't be emphasized the way we do it.
The way I see it, our issues come from what happened before 2013. The backbone of the team was getting old(Carrick, Evra, Vidic, Van Persie, Ferdinand, Giggs, Valencia and Rooney), the football side of things was basically SAF and Martin Ferguson, the rest of the club was declining and in hindsight leading this club after SAF's retirement was an even worse job that I imagined. In my mind it was a terrible job because the squad wasn't built for the future and the club was too SAF-centric.
Now Woodward as an insider should have known that, he may not have been in a position to make deep changes before 2013 but the moment he got the job, he should have had a plan to fix these, I assume, known issues but his now obvious undecisiveness have seen him try his hardest to not rock the boat and keep things the way they used to be. For me that's why we should blame Woodward, not for hiring managers that were popular appointments but for being a bit spineless.
I disagree with the bold. Keeping United successful shouldn't have been a terrible job. Our basis and fundamentals were rock solid. Fergie left behind a team of serial champions filled with world class players like Vidic, Carrick, Rooney and RvP, including some very good young players like De Gea, Kagawa, Hernandez and Evans. On top of that we had a great youth academy and an annual revenue of $400 Million+

It's hard to overstate how fecking good we were. We won 5 of the last 7 premierships from 07 until 2013, and of the two we lost we missed out on a single point to Chelsea and goal difference to City. We were basically the equivalent of Bayern in Germany or Juve in Italy when it comes to domestic domination. Those teams have changed managers and stayed the course. Install the right manager after SAF, and we'd have been flying in the league and Europe. Alas, it was not meant to be.
 

Beans

Full Member
Joined
Aug 9, 2019
Messages
3,512
Location
Midwest, USA
Supports
Neutral
And yet we still made record profits last year, I think they might well write their thesis on the dichotomy of success and failure from the executive management of a sports business.
The Knicks franchise gained hundreds of millions in value from the beginning of the end in the late 90s until now, it's still the worse series of sports decisions in history.

But yeah, what Leeds did to themselves or Pompey may be worse, probably some teams have had to dissolve through gambling on high wages and promotion or CL football, or what have you, that in a way is much worse.
 

JPRouve

can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate
Scout
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
65,354
Location
France
I disagree with the bold. Keeping United successful shouldn't have been a terrible job. Our basis and fundamentals were rock solid. Fergie left behind a team of serial champions filled with world class players like Vidic, Carrick, Rooney and RvP, including some very good young players like De Gea, Kagawa, Hernandez and Evans. On top of that we had a great youth academy and an annual revenue of $400 Million+

It's hard to overstate how fecking good we were. We won 5 of the last 7 premierships from 07 until 2013, and of the two we lost we missed out on a single point to Chelsea and goal difference to City. We were basically the equivalent of Bayern in Germany or Juve in Italy when it comes to domestic domination. Those teams have changed managers and stayed the course. Install the right manager after SAF, and we'd have been flying in the league and Europe. Alas, it was not meant to be.
It shouldn't but it was because the club wasn't ready to work outside of SAF's realm. Building a succesful team isn't a given and inheriting a team with a backbone on its last legs is a difficult project for pretty much everyone and you will rarely see anyone succeed long term under these conditions. Just look at the least of players that you mentioned, the young players aren't actually that good at the exception of De Gea and the older players are either cooked or close to be.
And the clubs that you mentioned work totally differently which is the point that I was making, in their setups the head coach is a relatively small piece in the machinery when at United SAF was the entire machinery.
 

Erebus

Full Member
Joined
May 14, 2013
Messages
966
Like others I also found the Di Maria piece really interesting - certainly different to the general view
 

Suedesi

Full Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2001
Messages
23,866
Location
New York City
It shouldn't but it was because the club wasn't ready to work outside of SAF's realm. Building a succesful team isn't a given and inheriting a team with a backbone on its last legs is a difficult project for pretty much everyone and you will rarely see anyone succeed long term under these conditions. Just look at the least of players that you mentioned, the young players aren't actually that good at the exception of De Gea and the older players are either cooked or close to be.
And the clubs that you mentioned work totally differently which is the point that I was making, in their setups the head coach is a relatively small piece in the machinery when at United SAF was the entire machinery.
If Moyes could have carried largely keep the old staff in place, rely on the existing structure/scouts, sign Thiago which was all but done and keep the senior pro's happy, he'd have been fine.

He tried to do things his own way which was disastrous because SAF's way was very successful and David Moyes wasn't coming from a great pedigree to begin with. Round, Woods, Lumsden, Phiz was hardly a world class staff. Too much change, too soon, by someone who was over their skis.
 

Amir

Full Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2000
Messages
24,831
Location
Rehovot, Israel
Now Woodward as an insider should have known that, he may not have been in a position to make deep changes before 2013 but the moment he got the job, he should have had a plan to fix these, I assume, known issues but his now obvious undecisiveness have seen him try his hardest to not rock the boat and keep things the way they used to be. For me that's why we should blame Woodward, not for hiring managers that were popular appointments but for being a bit spineless.
I doubt Woodward had much involvement in the football side of the club before his promotion in 2013. And certainly not the knowledge to find flaws in Fergie's system.

Anyhow, to be fair, he was given possibly the worst executive role in modern football - To be the man who runs Manchester United post Ferguson. People with far more football experience could easily have have failed as well.
 

JPRouve

can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate
Scout
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
65,354
Location
France
I doubt Woodward had much involvement in the football side of the club before his promotion in 2013. And certainly not the knowledge to find flaws in Fergie's system.

Anyhow, to be fair, he was given possibly the worst executive role in modern football - To be the man who runs Manchester United post Ferguson. People with far more football experience could easily have have failed as well.
He was the number two of United after Gill, it was part of his job to now how things are done, why they work and what can prevent them from working. And we are not talking about Fergie's system but United's organization, by reducing it to Fergie's system you exposed the very obvious flaw.
 

ReddBalls

Full Member
Joined
Sep 5, 2015
Messages
992
100% agree. Bad recruitment caused this mess. Good recruitment is the only way to fix it. 3 good signings out of 3 almost seems miraculous following the consistently disastrous signings of Moyes, LVG and Jose.
Recruitment is absolutely key, and there has been a revolution in the field in the wake of the moneyball-approach and the avialability of big data. By the looks of it, Leicester was an early mover and is reaping the rewards. United and Arsenal, on the other hand. Not so much.
 

momo83

Massive Snowflake
Joined
Dec 5, 2013
Messages
1,463
It's a long piece by Mark Ogden but a very enjoyable read IMO nonetheless.

“club signed Aaron Wan-Bissaka from Crystal Palace following an exhaustive process that began with "804 right-backs in our system based on scouting reports."

It’s like travelling the world looking for the perfect gf only to come back and think you’re next door neighbour will do
 

ReddBalls

Full Member
Joined
Sep 5, 2015
Messages
992
“club signed Aaron Wan-Bissaka from Crystal Palace following an exhaustive process that began with "804 right-backs in our system based on scouting reports."

It’s like travelling the world looking for the perfect gf only to come back and think you’re next door neighbour will do
Or that your next door neighboor is, in fact, your perfect gf.
 

Adnan

Talent Spotter
Joined
Oct 5, 2013
Messages
29,865
Location
England
“club signed Aaron Wan-Bissaka from Crystal Palace following an exhaustive process that began with "804 right-backs in our system based on scouting reports."

It’s like travelling the world looking for the perfect gf only to come back and think you’re next door neighbour will do
It was actually a waste of time watching and compiling reports on various RBs because the strategy to recruit due to 'culture' was already set it seems.
 

momo83

Massive Snowflake
Joined
Dec 5, 2013
Messages
1,463
Or that your next door neighboor is, in fact, your perfect gf.
Guarantee you within the next few years several currently unknown RB’s in a similar age to AWB will get signed by tier 2 and 1 clubs and establish themselves.

Not complaining about AWB. But if the club looked at 800 players and couldn’t find a RB with equal ability and future potential for cheaper then £50m then what’s the point of scouting.
 

Sterling Archer

New Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2016
Messages
4,289
Guarantee you within the next few years several currently unknown RB’s in a similar age to AWB will get signed by tier 2 and 1 clubs and establish themselves.

Not complaining about AWB. But if the club looked at 800 players and couldn’t find a RB with equal ability and future potential for cheaper then £50m then what’s the point of scouting.
Actually think you're 1000% spot on.

This superfluous emphasis on culture is ridiculous. Dare I say the same thing that defines success in "our" culture is the kind of work ethic and grit that would make a player successful at most of the other top tier clubs.
 

Adnan

Talent Spotter
Joined
Oct 5, 2013
Messages
29,865
Location
England
Guarantee you within the next few years several currently unknown RB’s in a similar age to AWB will get signed by tier 2 and 1 clubs and establish themselves.

Not complaining about AWB. But if the club looked at 800 players and couldn’t find a RB with equal ability and future potential for cheaper then £50m then what’s the point of scouting.
Our scouts are badly under utilised regards the first team. There was without question better fullbacks than AWB around Europe of a similar age and our scouts had compiled reports on over 800 of them. Players like Atal and Kostermann were likely among the ones scouted, but if the management decide they want to sign players due to improving the culture of the team then the scouts can do very little.

Until we have a football structure that draws parallels with the top clubs in the game, we will carry on under utilising our scouts and continue to make the likes of Leicester and Palace wealthier by overpaying for players under the current manager.
 

Florida Man

Cartoon expert and crap superhero
Joined
Jan 24, 2014
Messages
13,864
Location
Florida, man
Let's not despair, there are good times to come. Part of enjoying the part of being a fan is watching your team be built from ashes and rise to the top and this is what we didn't really get as United fans for decades. Not that we can complain about it. This is why, perhaps, fans of other teams seemed happier when their team wins something which we took for granted, almost like a right of ours and if United under Ferguson didn't win it was seen as a hit even if we fought till the very last minute of the last game. This is a humbling experience for us, but also one that will make United support rally around the next manager who makes it all come together and I believe Solskjaer will get us this success. I know some will call me crazy, but with him there is no rushing to get things happen in an instant, no sense of over-confidence, but a slow and steady moving forward, getting it done behind the scenes. He, as a player, endured long frustrating times on sidelines due to injuries, if anyone knows things take time it's him. I hope us fans can understand that a bit better now.
You had me in the first half.
 

NWRed

Full Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2019
Messages
1,155
Guarantee you within the next few years several currently unknown RB’s in a similar age to AWB will get signed by tier 2 and 1 clubs and establish themselves.

Not complaining about AWB. But if the club looked at 800 players and couldn’t find a RB with equal ability and future potential for cheaper then £50m then what’s the point of scouting.
There may well have been dozens of RBs who had similar attributes to AWB playing around europe available for less than £50m but all of them represented a risk due to them currently playing in a less demanding league and against inferior players, we needed a first team player to replace Young without any adjustment period or bedding in time. If the key criterion for signing a player is that they need to be capable of stepping into the first team immediately then you're limited to a much smaller group of players who will cost far more money.
 

Withnail

Full Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2019
Messages
29,333
Location
The Arena of the Unwell
If Moyes could have carried largely keep the old staff in place, rely on the existing structure/scouts, sign Thiago which was all but done and keep the senior pro's happy, he'd have been fine.

He tried to do things his own way which was disastrous because SAF's way was very successful and David Moyes wasn't coming from a great pedigree to begin with. Round, Woods, Lumsden, Phiz was hardly a world class staff. Too much change, too soon, by someone who was over their skis.
That was the problem though wasn't it? A new coach is always going to bring in his own guys. For some reason the assumption was that he'd keep all Fergie's staff and keep doing what Fergie did like some kind of clone.

It was totally unrealistic and they should have just gone out and got the best manager they could find.
 

JPRouve

can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate
Scout
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
65,354
Location
France
If Moyes could have carried largely keep the old staff in place, rely on the existing structure/scouts, sign Thiago which was all but done and keep the senior pro's happy, he'd have been fine.

He tried to do things his own way which was disastrous because SAF's way was very successful and David Moyes wasn't coming from a great pedigree to begin with. Round, Woods, Lumsden, Phiz was hardly a world class staff. Too much change, too soon, by someone who was over their skis.
But that makes little sense, SAF's way wasn't replicable and isn't replicable, it's the fruit of his own talent and abilities as a manager. If it was that easy at least one of his long term assistants would currently be one of the best managers ever. That's where club structures are key for continuity, in most clubs the head coach input is limited to the day to day management of the first team.