Old Trafford revamp/could be torn down and rebuilt according to Glazer plans

[stevoc]

I'll never understand this, all but 1 stand at OT have been pretty much knocked down to create new ones that are very far removed from what was there before, the Sir Bobby Charlton stand is the only one that's pretty much original.

There is very little left of the original Old Trafford in reality and if they knocked down each stand again and rebuilt them that would be pretty much what they have already done instead of doing it stand by stand they could potentially do it all at once.

The majority of the stadium has been there for a long time at this stage, what Old Trafford is today has been built in stages over a very long time. They could knock down all the stands one by one and rebuild them (unlikely to happen) but honestly what's the point, when we already have a perfectly serviceable stadium that just needs upgrading.

It would cost somewhere in the region of 1-2 billion to rebuild the stadium piece by piece, more than it would to just build a new stadium beside OT. But if you just build a new stadium beside Old Trafford then it's not Old Trafford.

All this talk of a new stadium is a moot point anyway. There's never going to be a new stadium built while the Glazers are in charge.

 

[pocco]

I think we all know mate that whatever renovation plan the Glazers opt for won't be costing anywhere near £1-2 Billion a new stadium would cost.

Then it's pointless.

 

[wolvored]

All this talk of a new stadium is a moot point anyway. There's never going to be a new stadium built while the Glazers are in charge.

This. It will be all bluster and a new roof and token paint job will probably happen

 

[Blake's 7]

Ironically the earliest I regularly got to the ground was when I lived in Manchester during the '80s. That was to claim our standing position in the Stretford End, nowadays with a guaranteed seat it doesn't really matter. I like to watch the warm up but beyond that can't see any reason to get there earlier and don't believe they could incorporate anything that would entice me to.
I'd like a bigger, comfier seating space and if a new structure (refurb or new build) could improve acoustics and consequently the atmosphere that would be brilliant. Pinching from other grounds, a single structure "wall" like Dortmund's would be ideal and for some reason I always prefer to see the player's tunnel on the halfway line (like it used to be) rather than in the corner.
Sponsorship wise, it will always be Old Trafford to me no matter what they rebrand it as - just like I always referred to St James Park for Newcastle.

 

[stevoc]

Then it's pointless.

Any sort of improvement is still an improvement I suppose. If I had to guess any renovation given the green light by the Glazers will be with a budget of £100-200m and focus on the visual aesthetics of the stadium like the facade and the roof I doubt they know or care that it takes people 25 minutes to get a pie and a pint or that the seats are cramped.

 

[MarylandMUFan]

Any sort of improvement is still an improvement I suppose. If I had to guess any renovation given the green light by the Glazers will be with a budget of £100-200m and focus on the visual aesthetics of the stadium like the facade and the roof I doubt they know or care that it takes people 25 minutes to get a pie and a pint or that the seats are cramped.

Disagree with that. If they use the American model, they will do improvements that will bring in more money which would be taking out regular seats and adding more luxury suites and things like that.

 

[pocco]

Any sort of improvement is still an improvement I suppose. If I had to guess any renovation given the green light by the Glazers will be with a budget of £100-200m and focus on the visual aesthetics of the stadium like the facade and the roof I doubt they know or care that it takes people 25 minutes to get a pie and a pint or that the seats are cramped.

The club need to get in the real world. Me and you are probably not bothered about all that stuff, but the standards have been raised and, I hate to use the term, but they're selling an experience to many other fans. If they want to compete then they need to invest big, some point in the next 10 years I'd say.

From a professional point of view, I can see the issues when I look at it as they probably are. They're not worried about the guys that just turn up to watch United and go to the pub. Some supporters would be happy with 60s and 70s terraces, bring your dog to the ground and smoke your cigarettes in the stands. But it's just a bit out of touch with reality. They're catering to the millions and society has changed. I see this exact issue with regards to many buildings. Sometimes, unfortunately, it just makes far more sense to build new. Or kick the problem down the road and let the next guy worry about it.

 

[Hal9000]

Any sort of improvement is still an improvement I suppose. If I had to guess any renovation given the green light by the Glazers will be with a budget of £100-200m and focus on the visual aesthetics of the stadium like the facade and the roof I doubt they know or care that it takes people 25 minutes to get a pie and a pint or that the seats are cramped.

It'll cost more than that... They claim to have put in 100 mill plus over the last few seasons and there is nothing really to show to it. A lick of paint, the roof patched up and a new disabled section... So if we want to go a full revamp like camp nou is getting then it's going to cost lot more..

 

[Revaulx]

I'll never understand this, all but 1 stand at OT have been pretty much knocked down to create new ones that are very far removed from what was there before, the Sir Bobby Charlton stand is the only one that's pretty much original.

There is very little left of the original Old Trafford in reality and if they knocked down each stand again and rebuilt them that would be pretty much what they have already done instead of doing it stand by stand they could potentially do it all at once.

Absolutely.

It appears that those who are dead set against a new stadium are younger fans who don’t remember the multiple demolitions and rebuilds from the mid-60s onwards and believe that the stadium is 112 years old

There’s also a good deal of hyperbole about turning it into a theme park and the like. Obviously that would be awful, but how many new grounds has this happened to? The main criticism of them (Arsenal etc) is that they can be rather dull. Plenty aren’t though; the new Spurs ground got a lot of stick on here in response to one Spurs fan’s ridiculous hyperbole, but people I know who’ve been to games there have been genuinely impressed.

 

[Revaulx]

Agreed to both. The idea that we need to demolish OT and build a new mega structure which amounts to the footballing version of a theme park sounds grotesque.

Thee isn’t room for a mega structure. The site isn’t that big!

 

[Sparky Rhiwabon]

Absolutely.

It appears that those who are dead set against a new stadium are younger fans who don’t remember the multiple demolitions and rebuilds from the mid-60s onwards and believe that the stadium is 112 years old

There’s also a good deal of hyperbole about turning it into a theme park and the like. Obviously that would be awful, but how many new grounds has this happened to? The main criticism of them (Arsenal etc) is that they can be rather dull. Plenty aren’t though; the new Spurs ground got a lot of stick on here in response to one Spurs fan’s ridiculous hyperbole, but people I know who’ve been to games there have been genuinely impressed.

Trigger's broom

 

[Revaulx]

Trigger's broom

Pretty much

 

[redcucumber]

Absolutely.

It appears that those who are dead set against a new stadium are younger fans who don’t remember the multiple demolitions and rebuilds from the mid-60s onwards and believe that the stadium is 112 years old

There’s also a good deal of hyperbole about turning it into a theme park and the like. Obviously that would be awful, but how many new grounds has this happened to? The main criticism of them (Arsenal etc) is that they can be rather dull. Plenty aren’t though; the new Spurs ground got a lot of stick on here in response to one Spurs fan’s ridiculous hyperbole, but people I know who’ve been to games there have been genuinely impressed.

Aside from this being condescending twaddle, how could you possibly know? This debate is taking place on an anonymous forum. I'm a young(ish) fan, but I know older lots who don't necessarily want a new stadium.

 

[Tiber]

A naming rights deal at Old Trafford would deeply annoy me. But if they built a completely new stadium? I'm not sure I'd give much of a shit if it became the Adidas Arena or something.

 

[Revaulx]

Aside from this being condescending twaddle, how could you possibly know? This debate is taking place on an anonymous forum. I'm a young(ish) fan, but I know older lots who don't necessarily want a new stadium.

Because older fans who’ve been going since the 60s (or 70s, or 80s) will have noticed the ground being rebuilt.

It’s even obvious from watching on the telly. During the first lockdown there were loads of games on from the 70s and 80s and the ground looked nothing like it does now.

Whatever. I’m as anti creating a theme park as you. I don’t believe it’s an inevitable consequence of a rebuild though, and I completely fail to see how the existing ground could be improved without a significant loss of capacity.

I’m also sceptical of the view that a new stadium could be built alongside the existing one. I can’t see there’s room, unless a busy rail freight terminal is relocated. Doing that would alone cost more than a new stadium. So if a rebuild does happen it would be either “do a Spurs” or relocate altogether. Now the latter I don’t think anyone would want.

 

[matherto]

@Revaulx the footprint of Spurs ground just about fits in the space of current ground and car parks if judging off Google maps. I did it with Wembley when this thread was started and it was just a bit bigger.

We'd have to build over the Irwell but I'd imagine you can put enough in place to do that.

Knock down the ticket office and expand over all the car parks and you've got enough to make a new stadium with all the mod cons, moreso if you make it steep and imposing to use less floor space.

 

[hp88]

Because older fans who’ve been going since the 60s (or 70s, or 80s) will have noticed the ground being rebuilt.

It’s even obvious from watching on the telly. During the first lockdown there were loads of games on from the 70s and 80s and the ground looked nothing like it does now.

Whatever. I’m as anti creating a theme park as you. I don’t believe it’s an inevitable consequence of a rebuild though, and I completely fail to see how the existing ground could be improved without a significant loss of capacity.

I’m also sceptical of the view that a new stadium could be built alongside the existing one. I can’t see there’s room, unless a busy rail freight terminal is relocated. Doing that would alone cost more than a new stadium. So if a rebuild does happen it would be either “do a Spurs” or relocate altogether. Now the latter I don’t think anyone would want.

This is a point which a lot of people have overlooked, the amount of work required will take years, people get arsy about having to move seats for a cup game, image the reaction when you are told to relocate for an entire season or told that you can't go to certain games.

@Revaulx the footprint of Spurs ground just about fits in the space of current ground and car parks if judging off Google maps. I did it with Wembley when this thread was started and it was just a bit bigger.

We'd have to build over the Irwell but I'd imagine you can put enough in place to do that.

Knock down the ticket office and expand over all the car parks and you've got enough to make a new stadium with all the mod cons, moreso if you make it steep and imposing to use less floor space.

That's what I have always though when looking at the land the club own, still reckon we have got enough space to build another stadium whilst leave Old Trafford untouched which would mean there would zero impact on match going supporters.

 

[matherto]

I think if you rotate Old Trafford as is 90 degrees you can just about fit it to the west and that would mean you could build the current South Stand up without the railway track so they might as well build a huge ground in the space that they have.

Although what GMP and the council would say about the idea of zero car park space I'm not sure. Unless we did what Ajax have done and build a car park under the ground?

 

[matherto]

Someone with much better Photoshop skills than I could make a plan of a ground in that space.

Maybe have a word with the warehouse company at the top and offer them a nice sum to relocate.

 

[matherto]

Much smaller scale but they got creative with Brentford's new ground given the space constraints of the two railway lines so they could do the same for a rebuilt OT on the land we've got.

 

[Revaulx]

@Revaulx the footprint of Spurs ground just about fits in the space of current ground and car parks if judging off Google maps. I did it with Wembley when this thread was started and it was just a bit bigger.

We'd have to build over the Irwell but I'd imagine you can put enough in place to do that.

Knock down the ticket office and expand over all the car parks and you've got enough to make a new stadium with all the mod cons, moreso if you make it steep and imposing to use less floor space.

Presumably you mean the canal? That would certainly be easier to cope with than the railway line. And the area between the canal and the road is either car parks or warehousing; not housing or a major rail terminal. Certainly not infeasible.

 

[Revaulx]

Much smaller scale but they got creative with Brentford's new ground given the space constraints of the two railway lines so they could do the same for a rebuilt OT on the land we've got.

It’s three lines actually; a triangle.The Express Tavern is a great pub!

 

[matherto]

It’s three lines actually; a triangle.The Express Tavern is a great pub!

I completely missed the one that runs between the back of the stand and Rising Sun Capital.

I followed the construction from start to finish so knew it was a triangle but it's been a while.

Presumably you mean the canal? That would certainly be easier to cope with than the railway line. And the area between the canal and the road is either car parks or warehousing; not housing or a major rail terminal. Certainly not infeasible.

Yeah the canal sorry. Know you can get a boat to the ground from Oxford Road-ish on matchdays.

 

[stevoc]

Disagree with that. If they use the American model, they will do improvements that will bring in more money which would be taking out regular seats and adding more luxury suites and things like that.

Yeah if...

The American model would be expensive, doubt that Glazers would like that.

The club need to get in the real world. Me and you are probably not bothered about all that stuff, but the standards have been raised and, I hate to use the term, but they're selling an experience to many other fans. If they want to compete then they need to invest big, some point in the next 10 years I'd say.

From a professional point of view, I can see the issues when I look at it as they probably are. They're not worried about the guys that just turn up to watch United and go to the pub. Some supporters would be happy with 60s and 70s terraces, bring your dog to the ground and smoke your cigarettes in the stands. But it's just a bit out of touch with reality. They're catering to the millions and society has changed. I see this exact issue with regards to many buildings. Sometimes, unfortunately, it just makes far more sense to build new. Or kick the problem down the road and let the next guy worry about it.

Kicking it down the road is what they've been doing for close to 2 decades now though mate. The ground seen redevelopments/expansions in 92, 95, 99, 00 and 05 But very little has been done to the ground since they arrived.

I agree OT does need some serious work to modernise it, in an ideal world if they could upgrade and update the roof, seating, facilities and exterior while keeping the majority of the current stadium that would be great. But I imagine a project like that would be very expensive.

It'll cost more than that... They claim to have put in 100 mill plus over the last few seasons and there is nothing really to show to it. A lick of paint, the roof patched up and a new disabled section... So if we want to go a full revamp like camp nou is getting then it's going to cost lot more..

Yeah probably mate would with the rise in the cost of building materials. I don't know if the Glazers would undertake a renovation on the scale of the Nou Camp or The Bernabeu. No idea where the money would come from.

 

[RC89]

How much do new build stadiums cost these days anyway? If it's a rebuild surely we could sell off the naming rights for a few hundred mill?

 

[Tiber]

Someone with much better Photoshop skills than I could make a plan of a ground in that space.

Maybe have a word with the warehouse company at the top and offer them a nice sum to relocate.

I still can't believe they didn't think about a hotel before Neville managed to stick one literally on their doorstep

 

[Revaulx]

@stevoc doesn’t the American model involve threatening to quit the city unless the council massively subsidises the new stadium?

I can’t see the Borough of Trafford acquiescing to that…

The works you suggest (new roof etc.) would be great, and part of me would be happier with that than a complete rebuild. There’s not room to do it within the existing shell without a substantial cut in capacity though.

 

[pocco]

Kicking it down the road is what they've been doing for close to 2 decades now though mate. The ground seen redevelopments/expansions in 92, 95, 99, 00 and 05 But very little has been done to the ground since they arrived.

I agree OT does need some serious work to modernise it, in an ideal world if they could upgrade and update the roof, seating, facilities and exterior while keeping the majority of the current stadium that would be great. But I imagine a project like that would be very expensive.

They have, but it always catches up. Buildings of this magnitude require serious upkeep and therefore investment. You can only get away with neglecting it for so long. Neglect might be a bit harsh in our case but I was stood outside last season thinking it looked very tired all of a sudden. There's been bits of work done here and there over the last year but I just don't feel it has that long left in the grand scheme.

Regarding your second point, it wouldn't only be costly but probably impossible to provide those upgrades within the existing stadium. We'd end up rebuilding it from the inside out and the only thing left of Old Trafford will probably be the pitch and a few other aspects. I've sat in many different parts of the ground over the years and the problem is there's no scope to increase space internally without major structural changes in a lot of places. Especially as you go higher up the stands. It'll certainly require a lot of thought and compromise.

 

[Hal9000]

Someone with much better Photoshop skills than I could make a plan of a ground in that space.

Maybe have a word with the warehouse company at the top and offer them a nice sum to relocate.

I’m also sceptical of the view that a new stadium could be built alongside the existing one. I can’t see there’s room, unless a busy rail freight terminal is relocated. Doing that would alone cost more than a new stadium. So if a rebuild does happen it would be either “do a Spurs” or relocate altogether. Now the latter I don’t think anyone would want.

I'm pretty sure United own that land. United own the International Frieght Terminal and most that area between the stadium, W2/W3 Carparks and then all the way to the Canal. We also own the big warehouse opposite the North Stand and i'm pretty sure we own Trafford Park behind the N3 Carpark, as well as lots of other smaller parcels of land and warehouses around the stadium.

I still can't believe they didn't think about a hotel before Neville managed to stick one literally on their doorstep

As for Hotel Football, i think the land was owned by some fans and i don't think they intended to sell to the club/Glazers and then Gary and co came knocking.

 

[matherto]

I haven't been since before COVID but is the Stretty still rusting away or did they end up painting the metal beams on the exterior. The bits that are above the turnstiles but under the stand itself?

EDIT - checked on Streetview of the bits I meant and according to that (a 2022 image) they have. Last I remember the paint was peeling and the steel was rusting so they've tidied it up a bit.

 

[Tyrion]

That's not true. Spurs stadium hurt them because of Covid more than anything and they've bounced back with top 4. Elsewhere, Atletico Madrid won a league title after moving. Juventus were very successful in a new stadium. Even West Ham are enjoying a far better time of it in their new ground than they did at the old one. They were a bottom 3rd of the league team and now consistently top half.

Arsenal were somewhat unlucky in that football changed just as they started building. Chelsea and City came in with massive backing, huge tv deals made capacity less important etc and they mismanaged their squad through their own incompetence.

There is also a further point in that a new stadium isn't just about wanting a shiny new toy. It's about practical needs. Bigger changing rooms for bigger squads and backroom staff, new medical facilities to ensure fans and players get life-saving treatment, even things like power supply and wifi due to the extra demands from TV equipment and broadcasting teams.

West Ham are doing well since Moyes came in. Before that they did have a match where there were multiple pitch invasions and protests against the owner during the game because the fans hated the stadium. Spurs got top 4 last season but they were in a champions league final not so long ago. They lost that because they went a few seasons with basically the same team and they ran out of gas because they were focused on the stadium and not the team.

 

[clarkydaz]

I haven't been since before COVID but is the Stretty still rusting away or did they end up painting the metal beams on the exterior. The bits that are above the turnstiles but under the stand itself?

EDIT - checked on Streetview of the bits I meant and according to that (a 2022 image) they have. Last I remember the paint was peeling and the steel was rusting so they've tidied it up a bit.

it was given a lick of paint during covid, likely among all the bad press. I remember walking over the bridge first game last season and it seemed fresher in a minmal way

 

[tentan]

If they were to relocate where would they go?

 

[Tyrion]

Spurs seem to be doing all right. Arsenal, I give you that, it all depends how its financed. Isnt West Ham stadium financed by public funds?

Spurs did alright this season. They have had a bad few years since the Champions league final and Poch's team got starved of funds.

Re West Ham, you might be right actually. I was thinking more about all the protests against their owners since the move.

 

[Real Name]

Spurs did alright this season. They have had a bad few years since the Champions league final and Poch's team got starved of funds.

Re West Ham, you might be right actually. I was thinking more about all the protests against their owners since the move.

Aha, right. I'm in two minds over the whole thing. If Old Trafford can be rebuilt I'm all for it. But if its not possible I dont mind making a completely new one, possibly on the same spot.

 

[stevoc]

@stevoc doesn’t the American model involve threatening to quit the city unless the council massively subsidises the new stadium?

I can’t see the Borough of Trafford acquiescing to that…

The works you suggest (new roof etc.) would be great, and part of me would be happier with that than a complete rebuild. There’s not room to do it within the existing shell without a substantial cut in capacity though.

That would be one issue, if the south stand could be expanded in any renovation that could make up for seats lost but I'm not sure how much of an issue the rail line still is. I'm sure they could probably cantilever a stand over it these days once we get to that stage then the costs would balloon to hundreds of millions. Don't see where we're getting that sort of money with the Glazers in charge without getting in more debt.

And yeah I'm sure if the Glazers thought they could have got a few hundred million out of the council they would have tried it by now.

 

[stevoc]

They have, but it always catches up. Buildings of this magnitude require serious upkeep and therefore investment. You can only get away with neglecting it for so long. Neglect might be a bit harsh in our case but I was stood outside last season thinking it looked very tired all of a sudden. There's been bits of work done here and there over the last year but I just don't feel it has that long left in the grand scheme.

Regarding your second point, it wouldn't only be costly but probably impossible to provide those upgrades within the existing stadium. We'd end up rebuilding it from the inside out and the only thing left of Old Trafford will probably be the pitch and a few other aspects. I've sat in many different parts of the ground over the years and the problem is there's no scope to increase space internally without major structural changes in a lot of places. Especially as you go higher up the stands. It'll certainly require a lot of thought and compromise.

If it went down the road of almost complete rebuild then I'd probably still prefer that to moving ground elsewhere.

 

[Revaulx]

That would be one issue, if the south stand could be expanded in any renovation that could make up for seats lost but I'm not sure how much of an issue the rail line still is. I'm sure they could probably cantilever a stand over it these days once we get to that stage then the costs would balloon to hundreds of millions. Don't see where we're getting that sort of money with the Glazers in charge without getting in more debt.

And yeah I'm sure if the Glazers thought they could have got a few hundred million out of the council they would have tried it by now.

I’m sure the south stand could be heightened and extended backwards with even a modest amount of cantilevering, rather like the Alexandra Ainsworth estate next to the line into Euston:
I just reckon the benefits wouldn’t be worth the cost. And that would be the case under any ownership, not just the Glazers.

 

[Buzzbee]

All these fancy rebuilding ideas and I really want is some leg room, the seats are painful!

 

[Furious George]

If they were to relocate where would they go?

Word on the street is Milton Keynes or Bicester. It's a toss up betwixt M1 or M40.

Smart money is on M40.