Ole: “maybe something has to give”

wolvored

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This has to be a WUM right?

People actually believe we were a swash-buckling attacking side without Ronaldo last season?

We had shocking performances last season without Ronaldo too. The Brighton game in which Bruno scored a last minute pen was one of the flukiest wins I've ever seen. That's just 1 example.
Ole said its a great time to be an attacker here, so there's one.
 

RUCK4444

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We're not even getting the basics right though; workrate is almost non existent, we don't press, we don't retain possession well enough, the intensity and tempo aren't there. That's without mentioning our tactics when in posession.

He would have to turn this around now to save the season or it is top 4 at best. I'm not sure there's merit in making a change now with this run approaching but if the title is gone and we go out of the CL, with progress on last season then impossible to achieve, he should go immediately and not be given the chance to salvage top 4.
This would then see him underachieve on what I considered minimum requirements at the beginning of the season and I would agree it’s time to start looking for a replacement.

The thing is, if he does go, we have to make sure the next guy is right, fits the club but just as importantly is a manager that won’t look to rip up the team, we can’t afford another 3 year rebuild job and ‘cultural reboot’ which were genuine requirements when Ole took over.

I wouldn’t rush into Conte for example. Ole is a harmless pair of hands to rumble along whilst we are looking - if it gets to that point.
 

wolvored

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In hindsight, Mourinho was right about a lot of things at this club he just went the completely wrong way about it. Should have sold Martial and Pogba ages ago.
Agreed we would have got around £120 mill to spend on new players as well.
 

RUCK4444

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I don't see us being improved to be honest. The improvement season on season is more by virtue of getting some players in that help us out. Year 1 he was shite, then Bruno came and it saved him. Year 2 he started shite, then Cavani came fit and bailed him out of some big games. Year 3 he's shite and individual brilliance from anyone isn't bailing him out.

He was just crazy lucky to have such little competition for 1.5 years with Lamps as a rival and for half a season with Klopp having no defence. Now that it's normalized a bit he's been found out. If Leicester didn't have an injury crisis I genuinely believe the final game of his first season would be the sacking game. We were on the right side and finished 3rd, but could have easily slipped and finish 5th.
The same way I agree the improvements have been slow and less than what we would have hoped for I also think your view above is very harsh.

Finishing second last season was no guarantee regardless of Liverpool’s defensive issues, they largely struggled offensively instead of defensively. It takes more than individual brilliance alone, for a start our starting 11 wasn’t even the best in the league or even in the conversation as being the strongest at the start of last season.
 

MUFC OK

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This would then see him underachieve on what I considered minimum requirements at the beginning of the season and I would agree it’s time to start looking for a replacement.

The thing is, if he does go, we have to make sure the next guy is right, fits the club but just as importantly is a manager that won’t look to rip up the team, we can’t afford another 3 year rebuild job and ‘cultural reboot’ which were genuine requirements when Ole took over.

I wouldn’t rush into Conte for example. Ole is a harmless pair of hands to rumble along whilst we are looking - if it gets to that point.
I disagree, I think Conte would get this team drilled, and fast. This squad has enough quality to win things in the next 2-3 years, we shouldnt be looking beyond that. There is no obvious stand out candidate at the moment, most will say Ten Haag but I'd still see that as a risk - coming from the Dutch league where Ajax are by far the biggest club - could he adapt his tactics to the intensity of the PL against superior opposition?

The season on season progress is the last reason to keep him on, and it's falling apart rapidly.
 

VP89

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The same way I agree the improvements have been slow and less than what we would have hoped for I also think your view above is very harsh.

Finishing second last season was no guarantee regardless of Liverpool’s defensive issues, they largely struggled offensively instead of defensively. It takes more than individual brilliance alone, for a start our starting 11 wasn’t even the best in the league or even in the conversation as being the strongest at the start of last season.
When you consider the rest of the teams I don't see how 2nd wasn't more than achievable. Liverpool were crocks for half a season and Chelsea were a non entity with Lampard. Who else was there? Spurs had imploded with Jose, and you have a free hit.
I'd credit Ole if he stayed abreast of City but he just fell away all the same. Neville had said as well, if you finish 2nd it should be a "good" 2nd where you push the title winners. That's a very reasonable expectation for his 2nd full season and it wasn't achieved.

Also, the football wasn't great and we almost never controlled games. Most of our wins were coming from behind and our away record was built on empty stadiums. Ole covered up the bad home record by saying we miss the fans, but it's obvious that was a pile of BS because we somehow manage to look even worse with a packed stadium.
 

the_cliff

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Long post coming, but there’s some constructive stuff in this thread.


An interesting post, but I don’t quite agree with all of it. Going forward, we aren’t that bad, our xG compares well. We are joint second scorers in the league. It could be better, but a better foundation and team confidence would do some of that.

I agree that having Bruno alongside two inside forwards isn’t particularly conducive. The centre of the park is very crowded and we have little wide. Greenwood would be a waste of time to be instructed to play wide and stretch the play. That’s not his game at all. He’s someone you always want playing fairly directly towards goal. We’re short of wingers, but I’d rather see any of Sancho, Rashford, Lingard or Dalot employed to generate width.

The priority has to be to sort out the defensive side of things though, so we do not need to score at least two goals every match. We’ve scored as many as City and Chelsea but have conceded ten to their three each. Right now we basically only defend with the back four, and the double pivot. Bruno is then channelling his inner teenage Rooney, whilst the three forwards amble about. That’s not a reliable system.

The situation isn’t irrecoverable for Ole, but either he or the next manager need to go back to basics a bit and focus on producing a solid foundation. That doesn’t mean picking a second string XI or opting for supposedly less flashy players, but actually setting up the team with the players having a shared mentality of prioritising the defensive shape, engaging in high workrate out of possession and taking pride in keeping a clean sheet. Conceding a goal needs to be as offensive to Bruno, Sancho and Greenwood, as it does to the centre backs and midfielders.


I agree with this, but it doesn’t have to be a massive adjustment for Bruno. Modern elite football teams will be found out if they try to play a poacher focussed solely on goalscoring, a #10 given free reign, and two inside forwards who don’t track back. It’s not necessarily about the selection of individual players, but as much about their ability to perform specific roles and follow instruction.

It’s not about the formation either. We saw the same thing happen with the 4-2-3-1 yesterday at Leicester and with the 4-3-3 against Villarreal. The front four are either not doing anything at all (Ronaldo, Sancho and Greenwood) or nothing constructive (Bruno) to help the rest of the team out of possession. All four of our full backs and three different midfielders in the double pivot have been exposed across these matches – and that’s not the fault of Pogba, Dalot et al. The opposition can too easily overload us with only the back four and double pivot playing a disciplined role off the ball. Defending needs to be a near entire team effort.

You can still play Bruno, Ronaldo and two of Sancho, Greenwood and Rashford together, but you cannot allow the four of them to play how they did against Villarreal and Leicester with these very attack minded roles. For me, Ronaldo is still the most reliable contributor in attack, so if you build around him and want to maximise his goals then the others need to have tailored roles with that in mind. Bruno needs to performing a more disciplined, recognisable midfield role, rather than playing as a second striker vacating the midfield. Our wide players need to work smartly off the ball and contribute to the team defensively. If primarily Rashford or Greenwood are stretching the play in behind at times, the other needs to be play a more supportive role linking with the rest of the midfield. That’s what I hoped Sancho would do. Right now, I’d favour Lingard’s off the ball movement and midfield workrate though. Regardless, the two players in these wider berths need to be willing to up their workrate and track back with real regularity or they aren’t going to be regular starters. Greenwood against Villarreal made Dalot look an utter mug. Both Sancho and Greenwood did little more yesterday against Leicester’s wing backs.


Well, you can play them in a 4-3-3, and looking at our squad I would still advocate that is the system with the greatest potential. The elephant in the room though is Bruno Fernandes. A 4-3-3 has no room for a roaming #10. Against Villarreal we lined up in a 4-3-3, but still had Bruno roaming everywhere and had both wingers high up the pitch. Whilst Dalot had no support in the first half from Greenwood, he wasn’t helped by Bruno constantly vacating his midfield channel either.

People talk a lot about Pogba’s and now Ronaldo’s failings, but it is time we asked more of Bruno and for him to do his share of adapting his game for the betterment of the team. I want to see Bruno playing a more disciplined midfield role, both with the ball and without it. He needs to recognise the times when the team just needs to either keep possession or its shape to regroup. He also needs to appreciate that forlornly chasing down the ball in isolation isn’t a virtue, as you leave gaps for the opposition to move into. Didn’t we learn that with Rooney? Bruno’s one of our players who needs to work smarter rather than harder. I hope it is not going to take a new manager to make it understood that we are really tactically limited if we can only field Bruno as a roaming #10

Against teams where we need more midfield combativity, you can add Fred in one the midfielder berths as a ball-winning midfielder and either drop one of Pogba or Bruno, or play Bruno as one of the front three.

The wide forwards I addressed in the response to the previous post, so won’t rehash again.
Totally agree with this post and have been saying it for a while now. I mentioned in another thread how last season Cavani's off the ball running and work rate helped stabilise and solidify our shape when Bruno goes off on one of his pointless presses. However, with Ronaldo now we can't afford 2 players to be so isolated in regards to our shape as it leads to our midfield being very vulnerable. This added to the fact that our wide players have no idea how to close off the passing lanes and stay in a decent defensive shape makes our midfield look poor and easy to play through and cut open. I think Bruno plays more as a traditional second striker than a 10 and it's to our detriment not our benefit.

I am also of the opinion that 4-3-3 would work best with this group of players and I also worry that if we do replace Ole with a Zidane/Conte there'll be no space for Bruno in the starting 11 which would shock and likely insult a lot of our fanbase. Zidane loves a 433 and Conte's go to formation is 352, both formations go with 3 dynamic midfielders that help support the defence and hold possession. I guess you could make a case for Bruno playing the Martinez Second striker role to Lukaku, I do think however, Conte would prefer a Sancho/Greenwood to a Bruno for that position.

It is also I believe the reason why Bruno was dropped in the big games for Portugal in the Euros as it's all well having both Bruno and Ronaldo isolated against the Luxembourg's (no offence) of the world but you can't afford the same luxury against a Belgium/France.

A midfield 3 of Fred, Pogba and one of Matic/Mctominay would work best imo for stability. Or, Bruno would have to accept that he's an advanced midfielder instead of a second striker and support the 2 at the base rather than supporting Ronaldo.
 

georgipep

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This is true.

For what this side needs, McFred is the best we can offer. Although, in the cold light of day its not good enough.

Compare and contrast McFred with the great defensive pivots of recent years. Its hardly Kimmich and Goretzka.

The sad thing about United is that, to improve this team, would not necessarily take bringing in world class players. Just better players.

A lot of us have deluded ourselves into thinking expensive=right. We have spent a lot of money since Sir Alex retired. However, most of it has been spent badly.

Its really hard to understand how the club uses money. We went years without singing a right winger. Then decided in the space of a year to get Pellistri, Amad and Sancho, just as Greenwood was developing.

You can say the same thing about midfield. We signed Herrera, then signed Matic, then signed Fred. Where is the improvement? Money being spent left right and centre and I struggle to think of how that's led to a big jump in quality.

With other teams you see it. Liverpool sign Fabinho and the improvement over what they had before is obvious. We have spent hundreds of millions going sideways in so many positions.

Ole is getting a lot wrong at the moment and that's on him. However, United, as a club, just has so much wrong with it. So many bad decisions over so many years have put us where we are. We could be better but would it be enough? I've lost hope.
I don't disagree with the majority of what you wrote but what about Liverpool signing Keita, Ox, Shaqiri?
 

TMDaines

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This is part of what will have to give. It is evidently not just Ronaldo.



Also don’t tell anyone, but Pogba is currently 3rd for United on this metric in the entire squad. Only Fred and Lingard do it more frequently. Yes, Bruno does it less often.



Neville is completely right: the challenge for the management team is to get United’s attacking players to function as a unit out of possession and to work as hard as the players at City, Chelsea and Liverpool. Simply casting them to one side won’t progress things. Could you get more out of Ronaldo? Yes, probably, he’s been a great as long as he has in part due to transforming his game. But it is the players in their mid and early 20s that I would be demanding the most from.
 
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stefan92

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What were his numbers in Germany like? Dortmund are usually a high pressing team are they not?
Did not look up numbers but you are in general right about how Dortmund play and he was a well working part of that pressing.
 

red4ever 79

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This is part of what will have to give. It is evidently not just Ronaldo.



Also don’t tell anyone, but Pogba is currently 3rd for United on this metric in the entire squad. Only Fred and Lingard do it more frequently. Yes, Bruno does it less often.



Neville is completely right: the challenge for the management team is to get United’s attacking players to function as a unit out of possession and to work as hard as the players at City, Chelsea and Liverpool. Simply casting them to one side won’t progress things. Could you get more out of Ronaldo? Yes, probably, he’s been a great as long as he has in part due to transforming his game. But it is the players in their mid and early 20s that I would be demanding the most from.
can we have this video on the homepage please @ mods with the time stamp 0.41. It's so obvious to everyone
 

TMDaines

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I tried to compare these numbers to those on FBref and they are quite different. Looks as if they come from different sources.
 

Bubz27

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So not Pogba then. Maybe Ronaldo? Bruno?
 

Idxomer

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Thankfully, Pogba will leave soon so this fanbase would stop scapegoat him so much.
 

Zoo

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Ole and his coaching staff have to give by leaving. It really is that simple now.