Ole - Every time we lose it, there's a counter-attack...........

[Walters_19_MuFc]

Following the game against Watford, one thing that stood out to me was when Ole mentioned our susceptibility to counter attacks.

"We created loads of chances [against Watford] towards the end, but every time we lose it, there's a counter-attack, so we need to lock it down more and be better at stopping the counter-attacks – that's where this team is going to learn and grow and I'm sure that we'll see an improvement over this season and hopefully for next year."

https://tribuna.com/en/liverpoolfc/news/3533047/

Even yesterday, despite coming back and getting a convincing win in the end, Newcastle gave us quite a few problems on the counter attack.

What can we do to ensure we're better at defending counters?

Do we need a specialist defensive midfielder, who will snuff out any potential counters? Do we need to press the ball better when we lose it and force the opposition into rush their passes?

Football is all about balance, and at the moment, we either attack well or defend well. It's very rare we've done both.

 

[2 man midfield]

I definitely think we’re lacking a proper defensive midfielder. Someone like N’Didi would do wonders for our defensive stability. I think the lack of a player like him goes a long way to explaining why we still don’t look that impressive at the back, even though we spent a bucketload on that area, and why Ole still feels the need to play two sitting midfielders against cannon fodder at home.

 

[AltiUn]

An excellent CDM and a rapid CB would go a long way to protecting us from counters, Maguire and Lindelof are both incredibly slow which always puts us at a risk when playing a high line.

 

[arnie_ni]

We dont give away tactical fouls when we lose the ball like city and liverpool for some reason.

 

[FootyGirl88]

We have no DM so what do we expect? The midfield has no balance. Until it gets rectified it will continue to be a problem

 

[Giggsy13]

An excellent CDM and a rapid CB would go a long way to protecting us from counters, Maguire and Lindelof are both incredibly slow which always puts us at a risk when playing a high line.

Lindelof is not slow, in fact he has got decent pace, it’s just that he has been prone to poor decision making and positioning. He has definitely regressed this year.

 

[Samid]

We need masters of dark arts in midfield like City and the dippers have. They commit loads of 'subtle' tactical fouls and are never cautioned until late in the second half. This is the best our lot can do:

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[ROFLUTION]

This is also a good reason why McTominay is a good fit for us. Rarely gives away the ball, and can make these tackles like City do on the counter, if asked to. It's most likely down to Ole not applying this strategy, that he or Fred don't make these fouls much. Fred could have done it yesterday for instance, in the build-up to Newcastle's goal.

How many times have we seen Pogba (Under Mourinho mostly) lose the ball, and left us vulnerable? He needs to be way better in his decision making, and do his dribbling further up the pitch

 

[Lynty]

Fred's been doing his bit. But ye, we need a Kante who just shuts those attacks down early.

Unfortunately that means we need a number 10, a DM, a RW and back up in midfield if Pogba leaves. Still too much to do in one window.

 

[Based Adnan]

We need masters of dark arts in midfield like City and the dippers have. They commit loads of 'subtle' tactical fouls and are never cautioned until late in the second half. This is the best our lot can do:

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Love that he immediately goes to square up after scything him down

 

[The Urban Goose]

This is also a good reason why McTominay is a good fit for us. Rarely gives away the ball, and can make these tackles like City do on the counter, if asked to. It's most likely down to Ole not applying this strategy, that he or Fred don't make these fouls much. Fred could have done it yesterday for instance, in the build-up to Newcastle's goal.

How many times have we seen Pogba (Under Mourinho mostly) lose the ball, and left us vulnerable? He needs to be way better in his decision making, and do his dribbling further up the pitch

Watch McTominay in the build up to Newcastle's goal, not exactly his finest work; a mature player would have tracked Longstaff and thus prevented the goal.

 

[Andersonson]

Ask Fred to stop losing the ball in dangerous areas would be a great start

 

[AshRK]

This is where lack of pace of our CBs hurt us. AWB is the best player to have to stop opponent's counter attack. This is why I feel when chasing a game we can move AWB as a CB and commit more bodies forward. Maguire and Lindelof while chasing game are too slow, maybe remove one CB and have AWB do the dirty defensive work and have a solid pacey DM to help him out.

Ole must address this issue. I am glad at least he knows this is an issue.

 

[RedorDead21]

McTom is so vital, Fred playing his best football for us, you wonder why other teams can walk through us then with the supposed individual quality in there.

 

[Red4Life_#7]

An excellent CDM and a rapid CB would go a long way to protecting us from counters, Maguire and Lindelof are both incredibly slow which always puts us at a risk when playing a high line.

100% Agree!!

 

[Bebestation]

I just say that we are not consistent with who we chose & even when we do the heart of our first team is easy to target- we don't have a consistent CAM, a RCM playmaker, RCB and LB.

The counterattack is initiated right at the top usually near the CAM, CM areas where we lack players who are proper creators - then the opposition target us either through Lindelof or Shaw before scoring a goal.

I literally see it all the time.

I think we need better passers at CAM & RCM, whilst having better defenders at RCB & LB.

 

[Santoryo]

This is why we need a proper defensive midfielder to prevent these things. We are very succeptible to counter attacks and long balls. Once a team goes long and bypass that initial midfield we're automatically on the back foot and defending for our lives.

It shouldn't be that way. Teams shouldn't be able to easily be face to face with our defense after 1 or 2 passes, that's ridiculous yet it happens way too often. A proper defensive midfield who can read the game and be disciplined would prevent such things from occurring.

 

[lysglimt]

The biggest problem is that we give the ball away in dangerous positions, when we really shouldn't have. One of our short corners turned into a big chance for Newcastle. And I think it was the Gayle-chance happened because Fred gave the ball away when he shouldn't have. But in fairness, Fred has improved a lot in that rea.

But this has a lot to do with experience.

 

[peridigm]

As far back as I can remember when our players lose the ball further up the pitch they don't press to regain possession. We do it on occasion but more often than not our players will look up at the sky and casually trot back onside as if they're leaving it up to the rest of the team to bail them out. You might see one player chasing the ball but it's wasted energy if the other players don't do the same and leave the opposition with options for passing and retaining possession.

 

[KennyBurner]

I actually dont think the problem is in midfield but in defense. Neither Lindelof or Maguire are aggressive enough. Lindelof loves to shadow his man while maguire is deeper backing off and waiting. Sure Fred is also very weak but he does his fair share pressing and making life difficult for the opposition. Mctominay could also do better with his passing so we dont start a counter for the opposition team.

If I was to make any drastic change it would be to replace lindelof with a tougher defender. Someone who loves to tackle on the halfway line and wont give striker a chance to turn and pass. We played a high line against newcastle and when we were on the counter Lindelof wasn't aggressive enough which gave Dwight gayle that first missed opportunity that he really should have scored. That could have screwed us like it did against watford.

Mind you lindelof has just been as good as maguire this season but the latter cost 80 million and has to play. We should give tuanzebe more opportunities if lindelof cant aggressively snuff out danger on the counter.

Ive also read suggestions of a player like Ndidi but to be honest he is terrible on the ball. Im pretty sure Ole would be far from interested.

 

[andersj]

Following the game against Watford, one thing that stood out to me was when Ole mentioned our susceptibility to counter attacks.

"We created loads of chances [against Watford] towards the end, but every time we lose it, there's a counter-attack, so we need to lock it down more and be better at stopping the counter-attacks – that's where this team is going to learn and grow and I'm sure that we'll see an improvement over this season and hopefully for next year."

https://tribuna.com/en/liverpoolfc/news/3533047/

Even yesterday, despite coming back and getting a convincing win in the end, Newcastle gave us quite a few problems on the counter attack.

What can we do to ensure we're better at defending counters?

Do we need a specialist defensive midfielder, who will snuff out any potential counters? Do we need to press the ball better when we lose it and force the opposition into rush their passes?

Football is all about balance, and at the moment, we either attack well or defend well. It's very rare we've done both.

We need a better structure. We need five players in the central area of the pitch where teams almost every time «runs through» when they counter. When Chelsea won they had Azpi, Luiz, Cahill, Kante and Matic. Man City had Walker, Kompany, Laporte, Fernandinho and Zinchenko last year. Liverpool have Matip, VvD, Fabinho, Milner/Gini and Henderson. We usually have Lindelof, Maguire, McTominay and Fred.

 

[NewGlory]

Do we need a specialist defensive midfielder, who will snuff out any potential counters? Do we need to press the ball better when we lose it and force the opposition into rush their passes?

You nailed it. We need a good DMF, De Gea to stop being an unexpected idiot and a better left back.

We also need attacking players who are better at breaking down teams. Guess what - a great way to open a team up is to score first! Then they have to attack you and cannot sit back anymore.

But our attackers and AMFs are just not creative enough and they rely too much on pace- which gives no advantage against a bus. And we don't have a decent playmaker at all, which is insane

 

[KennyBurner]

The biggest problem is that we give the ball away in dangerous positions, when we really shouldn't have. One of our short corners turned into a big chance for Newcastle. And I think it was the Gayle-chance happened because Fred gave the ball away when he shouldn't have. But in fairness, Fred has improved a lot in that rea.

But this has a lot to do with experience.

If you rewatch that Dwight gayle chance again you will see that with an aggressive defender dwight gayle would have never had the opportunity. lindelof had so much time to either make a tackle or use his physical strength to hassle their striker but he just backed off till gayle was through on goal. Lindelof is like an arsenal defender. They refuse to throw their bodies on the line or get stuck in which gives opposition striker time to think. Maguire too is also guilty of this which is why I dont think they are great partners together. We need vidicesque type defender to partner Maguire.

 

[Lash]

If you rewatch that Dwight gayle chance again you will see that with an aggressive defender dwight gayle would have never had the opportunity. lindelof had so much time to either make a tackle or use his physical strength to hassle their striker but he just backed off till gayle was through on goal. Lindelof is like an arsenal defender. They refuse to throw their bodies on the line or get stuck in which gives opposition striker time to think. Maguire too is also guilty of this which is why I dont think they are great partners together. We need vidicesque type defender to partner Maguire.

If lindelof commits high, he knows there is zero chance Maguire will be able to cover, because we're not set properly from losing the ball is a stupid area and top of that's he's slow.

It's more about when we're playing the ball around on the half way line, we either be sensible with it or have intensity so people can react quicker if it does come lose. Too many times when it slows down, no one is on their toes and they're not fast as it is.

 

[NewGlory]

If you rewatch that Dwight gayle chance again you will see that with an aggressive defender dwight gayle would have never had the opportunity. lindelof had so much time to either make a tackle or use his physical strength to hassle their striker but he just backed off till gayle was through on goal. Lindelof is like an arsenal defender. They refuse to throw their bodies on the line or get stuck in which gives opposition striker time to think. Maguire too is also guilty of this which is why I dont think they are great partners together. We need vidicesque type defender to partner Maguire.

I would be super curious to see Lindelof moved forward to DMF (since he is not bad on the ball) and Tuanzebe playing alongside Maguire.

May not work but feels interesting

 

[FootyGirl88]

This is also a good reason why McTominay is a good fit for us. Rarely gives away the ball, and can make these tackles like City do on the counter, if asked to. It's most likely down to Ole not applying this strategy, that he or Fred don't make these fouls much. Fred could have done it yesterday for instance, in the build-up to Newcastle's goal.

How many times have we seen Pogba (Under Mourinho mostly) lose the ball, and left us vulnerable? He needs to be way better in his decision making, and do his dribbling further up the pitch

He gives the ball away quite a bit as his passing is very poor.

 

[harms]

We definitely have to press better, but the significant issue is our current uncertainty regarding our defensive line. We don't commit to a high-line because of Maguire, who is always deeper than the rest of our defensive line in transition, which creates space for the opposition to exploit. And it's an understandable behaviour from Maguire, since he is possibly the slowest player in the league that doesn't have any recovery speed — if he fecks up with an offside trap, he's done and dusted. He also doesn't have that elite positioning sense that allowed the likes of Blanc to (mostly) nullify their lack of pace.

This requires some original solution from Ole, but, honestly, I don't see one yet — Maguire's biggest weakness is horribly exposed in this system, while the rest of that backline & our midfield are playing in a manner more suited to an actual high-line.

• Switch to a deeper defensive line. Not an ideal solution as this would harm our development into a (hopefully) modern pro-active pressing side.
• Bench Maguire. Harsh on Maguire, since individually he's our best center back, but any combination of the rest won't have the same issues in terms of keeping the defensive line higher up and using an offside trap more. The cons are obvious — the rest of our center backs are pretty shit.
• A mysterious solution that only a great manager could come up with. I mean something truly visionary, like Messi as a false 9, Di Maria as a hybrid midfielder/winger or Pirlo as a holding midfielder.
• Maybe signing someone like Rio or Stam, with enough pace and intelligence to compensate for Maguire's weaknesses would be another possible solutions, but I don't see any one of those available. Van Dijk would do the trick, but he's obviously out of the question. It doesn't completely solve the issue, but it will allow us to hide it better.

Obviously, De Gea is also a part of the problem (although I'm not in the camp that wants to see him gone, at least not yet). Having a sweeper keeper a la Neuer or Ter Stegen would help the situation significantly.

 

[Bebestation]

The biggest problem is that we give the ball away in dangerous positions, when we really shouldn't have. One of our short corners turned into a big chance for Newcastle. And I think it was the Gayle-chance happened because Fred gave the ball away when he shouldn't have. But in fairness, Fred has improved a lot in that rea.

But this has a lot to do with experience.

This is what I think to - our problems come from our inability to pass the ball properly & then our inability to defend it in the centre of defence.

I think if we get a ball playing midfielder and a CAM & tell Fred & mctomminay to concentrate on playing like Matic or Kanye that they will do a decent job atleast to the level that we don't nerd an immediate change straight away since a CM ball player will add his own defensive depth too.

Our current midfielders so far have to do too much. Fred & mctomminay have to initiate attacks. Pogba has had to previously defend (before we had mctomminay & Fred) etc.

 

[RedSky]

He gives the ball away quite a bit as his passing is very poor.

Aye, for a midfielder his passing success rate is very bad, 78.8% in comparison Fred is on 87.5%

 

[Godfather]

This is also a good reason why McTominay is a good fit for us. Rarely gives away the ball, and can make these tackles like City do on the counter, if asked to. It's most likely down to Ole not applying this strategy, that he or Fred don't make these fouls much. Fred could have done it yesterday for instance, in the build-up to Newcastle's goal.

How many times have we seen Pogba (Under Mourinho mostly) lose the ball, and left us vulnerable? He needs to be way better in his decision making, and do his dribbling further up the pitch

So you are saying that McTominay who is playing in the side that concedes counter attacks at every opportunity is a good fit to stop these counter attacks? Interesting.

 

[Tarrou]

When we concede you can almost always see it coming. Like we can't withstand a 5/10 minute period of pressure without collectively shitting our pants in defence and midfield.

During those periods, we need a calm head or two to slow the game down. Just grind it out for 5 minutes and wait for the game to calm down again.

 

[Jippy]

We should have a new thread on every single Ole quote. So we need a decent defensive midfielder, who knew?

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

Make a decision: What do we want to do when we lose the ball in the final third? What is our priority? To press high and regain the ball quickly or to simply close down the first attacker and gain the few precious seconds that will allow us to regain our defensive shape? I'd prefer the former.

A stop here for two quick explanations before anyone jumps on me: We do press in the sense that we want to incorporate active pressing tactics. It's clearly an arrow that Solskjaer wants us to have in our quiver. And we are slowly but steadily becoming better at it but the caveat here is that, currently, it bears fruit when we're already in defensive shape and the opposition decides to build attacks from the back. We got two goals from this type of pressing tactics yesterday. Secondly, as it has been proven in the big games, our defensive transitions can work to a tee when the instructions are to quickly drop off and get back in our third of the pitch.

Our main issues occur in the games in which we want to commit more bodies forward to stretch defences and we also want to stay higher up the pitch to apply more pressure and, eventually, break down an opponent that can defend well. What i took from Solskjaer's quotes in the OP is that the area we need to improve is our immediate reaction when we try something that doesn't pay off and the opponent gets on the ball. From what he suggests, we can argue that he wants us to stay high up the pitch and try to regain possession. City, Liverpool and Spurs under Pochettino are pretty good at it and it has been a key element to their successful seasons. The moment they lose the ball, they begin their effort to get it back. And it's something that their frontlines really excel at.

We don't get that from our attacking/creative players much, at least not all of them. The end of an unsuccessful run in behind or dribble/cross/shoot sees most of our players throwing their arms up in the air or with their heads down in disappointment. Pressing doesn't work like that, it's a collective effort and if one player doesn't play his role in it, it means that an opposition player will be free on the ball and we'll be finding ourselves running like crazy to get back into shape. Notice on how many occasions Fred or McT rush to close down the first attacker but are swiftly being overrun because their teammates simply don't operate in the same wavelength as them.

This involves two phases of play: Firstly, when we overload the left side with Shaw, Fred, the CAM and Rahford to get the latter closer to the box so that he can link-up with Martial. Lots of our attacks break down there and, as it can happen with overloads, your weak side is susceptible to counter attacks. In our case, with the #10 out of position (to be involved in the attacking play) and with Martial staring at the ceiling (not always and he's improved lately but let's not pretend that it doesn't happen often), what we get is one of James/Greenwood not knowing who to close down first, AWB worrying about getting back into position, McT caught between two minds (should i press or should i drop deep?) and Lindelof trying to anticipate what will happen in front of him. This also happens a lot when we're static in the attacking half and one of our midfielders/defenders decides to play a through ball or make something happen in general. Again, these are not bad players (i mean bad-bad like some want to portray them). They're not the best in the world (and most of them could be upgraded, if only for our dear Ed) but they could do a decent enough job. When the instructions are clear (drop deep into a low block and we'll hit them on the counter), they're not easy to get bypassed.

The idea of a specialized defensive midfielder who will screen the back-four suggests an inverted triangle in the middle of the park and from what i get Solskjaer loves his 4231 with a designated #10 who will enjoy the cover of a double pivot behind him to influence the attacking plays by his movement between the lines and by linking up with the main forward (which includes runs in-behind since the forward is instructed to create too). It's one of his principles and i don't think he will give up on it easily. Then you'll ask why Carrick could do it for Fergie? Well, then we had decided to defend in a very low block and with a very narrow shape ourselves and there was enough creativity and firepower in the first team to get us going on the other end of the pitch. Now, we simply don't.

A part of the blame could be laid at the feet of our centre-halves too. Not fast enough, not very aggressive and not very urgent. The thing is, they were selected by Solkjaer for a purpose. Their ability to help in the build-up phase when the midfield (especially with Pogba as a CAM) consists of ball-winners and runners (and the rumoured transfer targets are players of the same ilk). So, what can be done when you have slow defenders and no designated DM and you want to keep a high line? The answer is: press better and apply pressing that leads the opposition to play the ball to the sides. Don't allow the direct long-ball down the centre (the one the DM is supposed to defend against) and don't allow through balls in behind your slow defenders.

I believe this is what Solskjaer was referring to, the need to become even better at pressing. Thus the quotes about (hopefully) improving during this season and with these players. Imho, he should insist. If we get the likes of Martial, Rashford and Pogba to buy into this, the team as a whole will suddenly look much better. I'm one of those who believe that he has made far more mistakes than he should be allowed in the implementation of his tactics but his general idea to move away from Mourinho's "get all men behind the ball and keep the shape at all costs" primary tactics and instil some intensity and aggression in the attempt to get the ball back instead is a step towards the right direction.

The problem is that, as usual, we have made things difficult for ourselves. We want to maintain a higher line with defenders that are relatively slow but our main attacking outlets (Martial, Rashford and Pogba) are not very good at regaining possession right after the ball is lost. And we have a midfield that can react when we lose the ball adequately by either pressing high or dropping deep but they're not exactly sure what they're supposed to do in each occasion.

* Note regarding yesterday's game against Newcastle. In their goal, we actually led them to the wide areas and although we didn't get the ball back, we managed to get more than enough defenders behind the ball. But nobody closed down Longstaff, they all stood there watching. That's on the players.

 

[ROFLUTION]

Aye, for a midfielder his passing success rate is very bad, 78.8% in comparison Fred is on 87.5%

According to another site: Carrick's was 83. Fletcher's was 75%, Fred's is 73%. Not sure 79% is exactly bad for an up and coming talent. Not even sure which stats are correct. The same site you quote for 79% also has Mctominay at 88% in Europe and about 83-91% for all other seasons in various competitions.

 

[ROFLUTION]

So you are saying that McTominay who is playing in the side that concedes counter attacks at every opportunity is a good fit to stop these counter attacks? Interesting.

So you are saying we should blame McTominay for all of this? interesting.

Here, https://www.premierleague.com/stats/player-comparison

Plot in McTominay and Kante, and you'll see Scott on pair with one of the best in the World. Unless you nitpick it into small pieces in Kante's favor and leave the big picture out, he's performing quite good. Compared to Fabinho, Scott's better defensively on almost all parameters - although Fabinho has a high pass Success rate at 86%.

Only one he can't match is Ndidi for interceptions and tackles - to be fair, he's probably also the best at that right now in his position and is more dedicated to that role than McTominay.

I doubt we can buy the whole Leicester squad, so for now, continuing to develop McTominay is a decent plan.

 

[RedGib]

I’d suggest stop the complicated short corners that leaves 3 players immediately out of the game at that area of the pitch when we lose possession as per usual and never leave enough cover to compensate for every other player we’ve thrown in the box for the ball that we never delivered

 

[JPRouve]

According to another site: Carrick's was 83. Fletcher's was 75%, Fred's is 73%. Not sure 79% is exactly bad for an up and coming talent. Not even sure which stats are correct. The same site you quote for 79% also has Mctominay at 88% in Europe and about 83-91% for all other seasons in various competitions.

What is that other site because these stats are particularly bad and highly unlikely?

 

[ROFLUTION]

What is that other site because these stats are particularly bad and highly unlikely?

https://www.fctables.com/players/scott-mctominay-347666/

They have the same completion rate for McTominay this season as all other sites, so I doubt they're highly unreliable

 

[JPRouve]

https://www.fctables.com/players/scott-mctominay-347666/

They have the same completion rate for McTominay this season as all other sites, so I doubt they're highly unreliable

Seriously look at that site, I would stick with the one using Opta.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

We should have a new thread on every single Ole quote. So we need a decent defensive midfielder, who knew?

I don't think it's a simple as that, though.