Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2019/20 Discussion

mu4c_20le

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It's weird (actually not) how we occasionally hit upon the most patently obvious things like "playing Juan Mata in a 10 behind 3 quick forwards against lesser teams is a better way of structuring the side than putting him on the right wing and just not having a midfield at all" and then after lazily repeating it in the following game, against much less tactically suitable opposition, reliably ignoring it for another good few months, until we've cycled through all the other options and accidentally arrived back at trying it again...

All said and done, that was a genuinely enjoyable watch. Which would be much more enjoyable if it didn't seem like a happy accident that we'll probably fail to learn anything from a month from now.
The thing is, if Ole changes a 'winning formula' in the next game and it doesnt work out, he'll be crucified for not knowing what he's doing. Mata was played at the 10 a couple of times, most notably against West Ham, where the game completely passed him by. It's not like we have many options. I bet you if he starts Pereira on Sunday, this place would be up in arms.
 

Majima

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They played some lovely football until the third goal went in. No idea what you were watching.

Coming into the Solskjaer thread so say that shows your agenda as clear as day.
They did but your comment assumes that Brighton will play the same way as Partizan?

It's not like we haven't played the same 4231 vs deep defences and failed every time this season...

Just because i'm not getting carried away by tonight's performance against extremely weak opposition, i have an agenda?
 

JPRouve

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Could we show some respect to Partizan players and not call them farmers?
 

SER19

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Latest Ole position:

We've 4 wins from 5,admittedly decent fixtures, yet the Bournemouth performance suggested we haven't improved at all really.

Pros at the moment

Rashford and Martial in good form.

Team spirit still looks positive (as opposed to previous tenures where sack looked imminent)

There have been (all too few) glimpses of good football leading to goals. Goals v arsenal, Liverpool, Norwich, partizan and some early in season were all the result of the type of football I like to see.

Cons

No indication whatsoever that we will deliver against any solid pl team that performs well and invites us to break them down.

I still don't think Maguires partner has been found and though he hasn't been bad, lindelof has been very disappointing. I thought he'd really kick on this year. Left back is a shambles but not on solskjaer at the moment as Shaw had a good season.

Incredibly inconsistent. It would take a huge run of form to actually build confidence again.

Summary

I think solskjaer is safe until March or April no matter what. I love the man, desperately want him to succeed and am more optimistic than others that he actually has some sort of plan. All this said, our season depends on 10 points at least, from our next 12. Anything less and it really is just an endless cycle of false dawns.
 

Mockney

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The thing is, if Ole changes a 'winning formula' in the next game and it doesnt work out, he'll be crucified for not knowing what he's doing. Mata was played at the 10 a couple of times, most notably against West Ham, where the game completely passed him by. It's not like we have many options. I bet you if he starts Pereira on Sunday, this place would be up in arms.
Oh I agree... And that kinda proves my point, does it not? The obvious answer being "well Mata in a 10 against West Ham away isn't as good a tactic as Mata in a 10 at home to so and so" because ...well, obviously! Discerning those things are what managers are supposed to be for.

If you canvassed fan opinion (by which I mean a reasonably culled, overly invested fan opinion, disenfranching anyone belonging to a facebook group of any kind) most would've told you 4 years ago that Mata in the 10 was a good idea... and also a much better idea at home than away...Especially traditionally physical aways like West Ham, where his lack of strength and time on the ball is likely to prove ineffective....

Again, this is fecking basic seeming stuff... but stuff it seems to take every new United manager a whole season to learn. Which is frankly insane.

One of the things Ole is being currently celebrated for, is the deadweight shifting sales of Lukaku, Sanchez and Fellaini....Ironic lack of foresight notwithstanding, all of which were sales most fans were calling for way ahead of time... We're literally celebrating one of the highest paid managers of one of the richest clubs in the world, belated reaching the same conclusion as a bunch of forum gimps!.... Which is why I'm reserving real enthusiasm for when our performances seem genuinely planned, rather than randomly chanced.
 
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SteveW

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They did but your comment assumes that Brighton will play the same way as Partizan?

It's not like we haven't played the same 4231 vs deep defences and failed every time this season...

Just because i'm not getting carried away by tonight's performance against extremely weak opposition, i have an agenda?
Nobody asked you to get carried away. Maybe don't come in to the manager thread ranting and criticising straight after a good performance that most normal people enjoyed though. That's what someone without an agenda would do.
 

Shark

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This was a game we could have won 3-0 without a manager, Partizan were shite.
This is sadly true. Enjoyable win but that’s where it ends, I still have very little optimism in Ole when he goes up against solid opposition.
 

alexthelion

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This was a game we could have won 3-0 without a manager, Partizan were shite.
Well according to a lot of you on here, we did that tonight.

Why can't "fans" actually enjoy a win for what it is and stop moaning for one second?
 

mu4c_20le

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Oh I agree... And that kinda proves my point, does it not? The obvious answer being "well Mata in a 10 against West Ham away isn't as good a tactic as Mata in a 10 at home to so and so" because ...well, obviously! Discerning those things are what managers are supposed to be for.

If you canvassed fan opinion (by which I mean a reasonably culled, overly invested fan opinion, disenfranching anyone belonging to a facebook group of any kind) most would've told you 4 years ago that Mata in the 10 was a good idea... and also a much better idea at home than away...Especially traditionally physical aways like West Ham, where his lack of strength and time on the ball is likely to prove ineffective....

Again, this is fecking basic seeming stuff... but stuff it seems to take every new United manager a whole season to learn. Which is frankly insane.

One of the things Ole is being consistently celebrated for, is the deadweight shifting sales of Lukaku, Sanchez and Fellaini....The ironic lack of foresight notwithstanding, all of these were things most fans were calling for way ahead of time... We're literally celebrating one of the highest paid managers, of one of the richest club in the world, belated reaching the same conclusion as a bunch of forum gimps.... This is the level now.
I don't think Ole is just realizing it now, i think that his options are incredibly limited. With injuries to all our strikers and Pogba, the only other choices were Pereira and Lingard, who is a shadow of his former self these days. I remember being linked with Coutinho in the summer, how we could have done with him now at the 10 position. But for one reason or another, it did not materialize.. besides the player being uninterested, my speculation is that perhaps we could not afford his wages. Not without offloading the likes of Sanchez and Lukaku first, anyways.
 

Majima

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Nobody asked you to get carried away. Maybe don't come in to the manager thread ranting and criticising straight after a good performance that most normal people enjoyed though. That's what someone without an agenda would do.
How is observations i witnessed multiple times throughout tonight's match ranting and criticising?

I acknowledged the win tonight but what we perform like vs Brighton is much more important to me. Is it not to you?

What i saw tonight was that we played the same way as we normally do. Lots of static movement, sideways passing and too many touches on the ball slowing play down. The goals we scored were from magic individual play. It wasn't an emphatic performance tonight by my standards. The only difference was the level of opponent we faced.

There is no agenda. I just can't celebrate tonight's win, because i'm fully aware of how much we still need to improve.
 

SteveW

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How is observations i witnessed multiple times throughout tonight's match ranting and criticising?

I acknowledged the win tonight but what we perform like vs Brighton is much more important to me. Is it not to you?

What i saw tonight was that we played the same way as we normally do. Lots of static movement, sideways passing and too many touches on the ball slowing play down. The goals we scored were from magic individual play. It wasn't an emphatic performance tonight by my standards. The only difference was the level of opponent we faced.

There is no agenda. I just refuse to celebrate tonight's win, because i'm fully aware of how much we still need to improve.
There was heaps of nice link up play for the first hour. Between Rashford and Martial in particular. We could have scored 7.
 

nokillingmoths

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Latest Ole position:

We've 4 wins from 5,admittedly decent fixtures, yet the Bournemouth performance suggested we haven't improved at all really.

Pros at the moment

Rashford and Martial in good form.

Team spirit still looks positive (as opposed to previous tenures where sack looked imminent)

There have been (all too few) glimpses of good football leading to goals. Goals v arsenal, Liverpool, Norwich, partizan and some early in season were all the result of the type of football I like to see.

Cons

No indication whatsoever that we will deliver against any solid pl team that performs well and invites us to break them down.

I still don't think Maguires partner has been found and though he hasn't been bad, lindelof has been very disappointing. I thought he'd really kick on this year. Left back is a shambles but not on solskjaer at the moment as Shaw had a good season.

Incredibly inconsistent. It would take a huge run of form to actually build confidence again.

Summary

I think solskjaer is safe until March or April no matter what. I love the man, desperately want him to succeed and am more optimistic than others that he actually has some sort of plan. All this said, our season depends on 10 points at least, from our next 12. Anything less and it really is just an endless cycle of false dawns.
I really hope he isn't safe no matter what, could be a complete disaster. We played some great football tonight but they were absolutely awful, both technically and tactically.

Jury is still very much out on ole and if our points per game doesn't start to improve in the league he needs to go.
 

Rafaeldagold

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It was much better tonight & where I give him a lot of flack it’s deserved & tonight in fairness was obviously a lot better, but the opposition was terrible in all honesty it’s hard to really gauge too much from where we are right now on that game.

Unfortunately Oles previous performances and results against better opposition in the league suggest he isn’t the best man for the job & I feel we can do much better as a club. First half tonight was enjoyable at least for first time in a while
 

Andycoleno9

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Then why are you a football fan? You may as well just support whoever is winning if you disregard all history and have no respect or connection to those who you have watched over the years
I really don't know how you made this conclusion after reading my post.
 

Majima

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There was heaps of nice link up play for the first hour. Between Rashford and Martial in particular. We could have scored 7.
Maybe you misunderstand. I agree. The link-up play between Martial & Rashford in the final third were the only positives of the match for me. But you can say they were only able to get so much space between themselves due to the level of opponent we were against. They afforded us a lot of space to do our thing.

Against tougher opponents, there won't be as much space for them both. We just saw that very thing vs Bournemouth where they were both starved of service. I saw the same thing at times tonight, when Partizan were very deep and we were starting our build-up with Maguire or Fred/McT, the amount of sideways/backwards passing due to no options ahead of the ball was there to see.

That is what i'm talking about, when i say i want to see what we're like vs Brighton at the weekend. As i know this type of match has been our main weakness for as long as i can remember now.
 

ash_86

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For Greenwood, of course now in order to give him game time and develop his body, we can play him at RW, but if you see in the match, Greenwood was very quiet most of the time. I think his long term best position is striker, since his skill set and speed remind me of VPS.
I agree. We don't know how players will develop. For long time we were thinking Rashford is sure shot #9 but turns out not. I'm just happy he' getting minutes in the front 3 at this point.
 

SteveW

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Maybe you misunderstand. I agree. The link-up play between Martial & Rashford in the final third were the only positives of the match for me. But you can say they were only able to get so much space between themselves due to the level of opponent we were against. They afforded us a lot of space to do our thing.

Against tougher opponents, there won't be as much space for them both. We just saw that very thing vs Bournemouth where they were both starved of service. I saw the same thing at times tonight, when Partizan were very deep and we were starting our build-up with Maguire or Fred/McT, the amount of sideways/backwards passing due to no options ahead of the ball was there to see.

That is what i'm talking about, when i say i want to see what we're like vs Brighton at the weekend. As i know this type of match has been our main weakness for as long as i can remember now.
Our only creative midfielder is injured. The others are more of the water carrying variety. We can come in here and throw that at Ole but in reality it's what he inherited. Had Dybala or Eriksson agreed to come things may have been different.

We knew going into the season creativity would be an issue when depending on the likes of Fred, Matic, Pereira, Mata, Lingard etc. There's no magic wand or training drills that will get these guys unlocking defenses. Incremental improvement is about as much as can realistically be expected without signings.

Bournemouth was our 4th away game in 11 days. We've still won 4 out of the last 5 so that has to suggest something is working a bit better at least.
 

Mockney

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I don't think Ole is just realizing it now, i think that his options are incredibly limited. With injuries to all our strikers and Pogba
Well, again... without wanting to seem cynically over-negative after a pretty good win, the reason Pogba has been MIA for nearly 2 months now, is entirely because Ole played him for the full 90 minutes in a pithy League Cup game, despite being notably only half-fit!... And whilst I did greatly enjoy our performance tonight, I also became increasingly annoyed by every passing minute beyond the 3rd goal, that any one of Rashford, Martial, Maguire or AWB stayed on the field... Because you'd like to think any manager who'd lost their best player very recently by needlessly risking them in a cup game, would be extra-wary of losing more of his first XI (especially those who'd only just returned to fitness - like Martial or AWB, who both played 90 - or were severely overplayed, like Rashford) by playing them in a competition where we already topped our group, and were in significantly less danger of decline than our disastrous League campaign!

the only other choices were Pereira and Lingard, who is a shadow of his former self these days. I remember being linked with Coutinho in the summer, how we could have done with him now at the 10 position. But for one reason or another, it did not materialize.. besides the player being uninterested, my speculation is that perhaps we could not afford his wages. Not without offloading the likes of Sanchez and Lukaku first, anyways.
I'm not gonna get into whose responsible for our transfer window. None of us really know, and anyone on either extreme of the Ole-Woodward blame spectrum can probably make a viable case for any of it.... However common sense dictates that it's hard to give Ole all the credit for our (so far) successful signings, whilst also fully absolving him of our horrendous squad management... just as it's hard to blame Woody solely for our pathetically overpaid squad, whilst pretending he had nothing to do with Ole's player recruitment. Common sense dictates that the state of our squad, our team, and our general style of play, has at least something to do with the manager that's been in charge for nearly 11 months now. Agreeing with that doesn't mean you're excusing the Glazer regime, or being irrationally impatient... Just as questioning it doesn't necessarily mean you're a daft nostalgic fantasist!

As for Coutinho... From what I remember, that was a very fleeting late window thing, no? We were never really in for him (and he was prominent enough at 'Pool to be aware of the backlash were he ever to do so, making it pretty improbable) ... Unlike Bruno Fernandes, for example, whom we were linked to throughout the entire window, was practically begging for us to sign him, and has subsequently proved to be a proper talent.... but whom (according to who you believe) we either weren't in for (making our scouting system potentially shitter than Goal.com and The Caf!) decided against due to price (despite spending £80m on Harry Maguire) or was turned down by Ole/United-Way Inc for not being young or British enough (making us the obsolete football equivalent of the "Ok Boomer" meme")..... None of which reflects particularly well on us.
 
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Crashoutcassius

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Since newcastle we have had 4 good performances, today norwich liverpool chelsea, and 2 bad vs partizan away and Bournemouth. There is a decent lift in form at a time when fans were talking about 'the next 5 games'.

If we win this weekend we could technically be in 6th and a point behind arsenal for the international break, with Pogba to come back in and hopefully dry gun powder for january. If we can add some creativity in january and keep key players fit I think Ole could stay in the job til end of season. We are good enough to get results - just not convinced it will ever be pretty
 

Backrow Singer

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Since newcastle we have had 4 good performances, today norwich liverpool chelsea, and 2 bad vs partizan away and Bournemouth. There is a decent lift in form at a time when fans were talking about 'the next 5 games'.

If we win this weekend we could technically be in 6th and a point behind arsenal for the international break, with Pogba to come back in and hopefully dry gun powder for january. If we can add some creativity in january and keep key players fit I think Ole could stay in the job til end of season. We are good enough to get results - just not convinced it will ever be pretty
I mean blimey.
 

Irwin99

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It was a risky gamble in some ways to start such a strong side tonight given that some players are looking tired and we have a big match on Sunday but I think Ole got the call right. After the international break the fixtures are going to pile up and at least we have the Europa League virtually put to bed now, although there's still 1st place to get in the group which avoids the champions league dropouts.
 

croadyman

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It's Norwich mk2. Great win against crap opposition but we shouldn't look any further than that. At least it's a comfortable night today.
Yeah the real test will be on Sunday, still unsure whether Brighton are going to come out and attack us like Ole wants or decide to just adopt the sit in approach and make us break them down which we look clueless trying to do.
 

Flexdegea

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And you are?

It was Partizan, not Barcelona. I'm more interested in what we're like vs Brighton at the weekend.

Considering we've struggled to break down deep defences since eternity and i saw plenty of warning signs tonight to not get carried away by tonight's result.

Mot sure what this has got to do with watching the game last night.


Warning signs.......:lol:

We havent been able to break teams since forever...............for once we showed some intent last night and the movement up front was really good. Maybe a warning sign of things to come ;)
 

Crashoutcassius

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Yeah the real test will be on Sunday, still unsure whether Brighton are going to come out and attack us like Ole wants or decide to just adopt the sit in approach and make us break them down which we look clueless trying to do.
They will do that of course. We still have the ability to win a game like that though.
 

Alabaster Codify7

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Enjoyed that performance, but it still changes nothing with regards to Ole.
It's Norwich mk2. Great win against crap opposition but we shouldn't look any further than that. At least it's a comfortable night today.
Spot on. Pretty entertaining game with some nice goals but has no bearing on Oles standing. It'll be two steps back again come Sunday.
 

Meep

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I guess many are the players who will stay home from a six timezone travel to Astana now when it is already a deal done. Probably why Ole choose a relatively strong team. Great though that most of the players can stay at home from that world trip.
 

Fluctuation0161

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It was a risky gamble in some ways to start such a strong side tonight given that some players are looking tired and we have a big match on Sunday but I think Ole got the call right. After the international break the fixtures are going to pile up and at least we have the Europa League virtually put to bed now, although there's still 1st place to get in the group which avoids the champions league dropouts.
We will find out after Sunday.
 

Alabaster Codify7

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He's up against a half-decent side again this weekend at home - let's see how he fares. I feel he's dropping points and delivering a bland performance again.
 

VP89

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He's up against a half-decent side again this weekend at home - let's see how he fares. I feel he's dropping points and delivering a bland performance again.
It's normally the away fixtures that I feel we have no chance in. The OT fixtures as a minimum tend to have better performances, bar Palace.
 

momo83

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Mot sure what this has got to do with watching the game last night.


Warning signs.......:lol:

We havent been able to break teams since forever...............for once we showed some intent last night and the movement up front was really good. Maybe a warning sign of things to come ;)
So what you’re saying is that once Ole gets us into League 1... our football will be good week in week out when we’re playing the likes of Mk Dons, Oxford, Fleetwood etc
 

Flexdegea

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So what you’re saying is that once Ole gets us into League 1... our football will be good week in week out when we’re playing the likes of Mk Dons, Oxford, Fleetwood etc

I'm saying nothing.

Was making a point orginally about what game he was watching and he kept going on about warning signs after claiming it wasnt a good game on the football side of things.

If we are going to be negative about everything by saying warning signs after a good attacking display, I was sarcastically pointing out maybe it a warning sign of better play to come.
 

momo83

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I'm saying nothing.

Was making a point orginally about what game he was watching and he kept going on about warning signs after claiming it wasnt a good game on the football side of things.

If we are going to be negative about everything by saying warning signs after a good attacking display, I was sarcastically pointing out maybe it a warning sign of better play to come.
Yeah I know what you did. Don’t think you know what I did.
 

Bobcat

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There's this myth peddled that Lukaku and Sanchez were bad apples.

On what basis? Lukaku had weight issues and was subsequently kicked out of the club.

Doesn't Shaw battle with weight issues and have bigger problems performing consistently? What's the difference?

Didn't Lukaku help land Ole the job by scoring twice in the famous PSG victory?

He scored in 3 games in row. 2 goals against Palace, 2 goals against Southampton and 2 goals against PSG.

After PSG we played against arsenal and he didn't perform and was promptly dropped and Ole made it clear Rashford was his favorite and that's when Lukuku and his agent started releasing stories about his desire to move to Italy.

Rashford knew he was no 1 and his place was secure hence the Gold Rashy chain he treated himself to shortly after Lukaku got marginalized


Sanchez himself didn't start to badly under Ole either scoring in the 3-1 win against Arsenal. Then was dropped in favor of Lingard who was given umpteenth amount of chances to prove himself even when doing nothing but being a passenger on the field.

It had to take a huge fans backlash during pre season and the start of this season for Jesse to be dropped and that was partly due to his off the field clownery

Yet you can be damn sure Ole is in no rush to kick him out of the club like he did with Lukaku or Sanchez

Sanchez during his time here was always hard working and a model professional. In the media the only time you'd see his social media is when he was posting videos of him working out in the gym or showing off pictures of his dog.

So ask where this this stuff about these two players being bad apples come from?
Fecking hell. The amount of revisionism in there is simply baffling. Lukaku ? Decent player, but ultimately he was lazy as feck and incredibly unprofessional. He was decent his first season here but was fecking shite last year. Sanchez was deadweight from the moment he arrived. Scored againt Arsenal? Wow, that accounts for about 50% of his output here.

Sanchez a model professional? He is and was a greedy, moaning cnut. He was incredibly unpopular at Arsenal and the same here because he was "unhappy". https://www.express.co.uk/sport/foo...-Alexis-Sanchez-Man-Utd-Arsenal-transfer-news

I simply cant believe what i am reading. Lukaku? Fair enough hes a decent goal scorer when in form, but fecking Sanchez? He is without a shadow of a doubt the worst decisions the club has ever made. Not only was he shite, but the fat contract that Ed handed him that ridiculous contract had severe consequences
 

VP89

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Fecking hell. The amount of revisionism in there is simply baffling. Lukaku ? Decent player, but ultimately he was lazy as feck and incredibly unprofessional. He was decent his first season here but was fecking shite last year. Sanchez was deadweight from the moment he arrived. Scored againt Arsenal? Wow, that accounts for about 50% of his output here.

Sanchez a model professional? He is and was a greedy, moaning cnut. He was incredibly unpopular at Arsenal and the same here because he was "unhappy". https://www.express.co.uk/sport/foo...-Alexis-Sanchez-Man-Utd-Arsenal-transfer-news

I simply cant believe what i am reading. Lukaku? Fair enough hes a decent goal scorer when in form, but fecking Sanchez? He is without a shadow of a doubt the worst decisions the club has ever made. Not only was he shite, but the fat contract that Ed handed him that ridiculous contract had severe consequences
You have not provided a single piece of evidence that suggests Sanchez was a bad apple for us. He's not referring to performances or being overpaid. It's on reference to attitude, workrate and mentality. Sanchez was actually ticking all boxes at least on that front. Ole said he had a good attitude, hunger to play and Sanchez himself never put down the club in public.

Lukaku is another story. He was definately a bad apple and there are multiple interviews and instances pointing to it. Coming underweight, flirting with moves abroad, name dropping Conte, sharing personal teammate fitness data, etc.
 

Bobcat

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It was much better tonight & where I give him a lot of flack it’s deserved & tonight in fairness was obviously a lot better, but the opposition was terrible in all honesty it’s hard to really gauge too much from where we are right now on that game.

Unfortunately Oles previous performances and results against better opposition in the league suggest he isn’t the best man for the job & I feel we can do much better as a club. First half tonight was enjoyable at least for first time in a while
That's wrong mate. His record against the good teams is quite decent, its the shit teams we struggle against for some reason. Granted that Partizan is not PL, quality, but it was nice to see us put a worse team to the sword for once