I am worried that may be the case, which is a problem in itself. WIth the quality of coaching and money in the country, I don't think top players alone is enough.
Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
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That's what I assumed and why I'm less bothered by Ole and my doubts, now that I know a bit more about him as a manager. He has shown that his man management is excellent and that's probably why SAF allegedly recommended him, he hasn't given me reasons to believe that he won't be able to improve his supporting team appropriatly.
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I think this could be best step we could take.
Yeah, finding the right backroom staff is very important. We have made many changes already with few coaches joining but it's hard to rate their impact. He even appointed few analysts too.
Hopefully he will have a long career at ManUtd. He has right ideas, as always how he implements them is the most important part. For now it looks like he is getting what he wants from the team.
Ole has been saying all the right things in interviews again. The expectation and standards this club has, and they aren't there despite this good run.
Seems to have a bit more bite to him in weird way, winners mentality perhaps, now that his job isn't being questiones 24/7.
Seems to have a bit more bite to him in weird way, winners mentality perhaps, now that his job isn't being questiones 24/7.
I'm skeptical too but the reasoning here used is debatable. It makes no considerable difference to our system if we play with Shaw or Williams, Martial or Ighalo, Bailly or Lindelof, Fred or McTominay. Obviously the difference in quality between Bruno and Lingard or Pogba and Pereira will leave a perception, but even Pep with his system would see his tactics suffer with that sort of drop in quality. I think Ole has changed the attitude of these players and I do think the system gets the most out of the majority of our good players, including our most important players which is the essential part to get right really. If we had a system that made Lingard shine while Bruno didn't we'd be scratching our heads. The system is made for quality players, if a player wants to play he needs to get to that level or he'll be out as we've seen with Lingard etc. It's great.
Which means that the system doesn't elevate players and I said key players. You are basically making my point but don't want to draw the obvious conclusion. You name players that aren't key to contest a point about key players.
I can't judge a manager's tactical acumen positively when I haven't seen him cope effectively without his ideal first eleven, it's not a deal breaker but it still puts questions marks around one important aspects when it comes to long term expectations.
Been saying this for a while, Fergie relied heavily on assistants running training sessions and tactics. The man at the top isn’t the be all and end all, it’s a massive collaboration. Would rather have a great man manager who can work with his coaching team, than a tactical genius who falls out with his players, his staff, and the physio.
And regarding tactics, I really think Ole is underrated in this regard, people have this bizarre agenda against him. As if Jurgen Klopp was born with a trophy in his hand. Everyone has to start somewhere. A lot of fans of this club have unrealistic expectations of how long it takes to build a side capable of competing at the top.
I think to be fair on Ole, I wasn't earlier in the season, he suffered from the club not doing enough in the summer transfer business because if we had Bruno from the first day of the season we would be comfortably in the top four right now. I agree that he is great for the club in terms of man management and as a figurehead so I think he should scout around for a number two that brings something in terms of tactics like the actual implementation of his vision.
Agree with that. We did enter the season with a very thin attack after getting rid of Lukaku and Sanchez. I think it was obvious that Ole wanted to bring in an attacker but with limited resources, he had to prioritise and he chose to go with strengthening the defence first. Unfortunately, Pogba, Martial and Rashford got injured in succession, which contributed to our poor start.
With them back from injuries, Greenwood having developed nicely and Odion brought in to increase our strength in depth, we are finally seeing what Ole is trying to build.
But what system doesn't rely on key players being good? We saw how poor Pep's City was in his first season when he had aging fullbacks as physically fit fullbacks who can build up play are essential to his system. Is that not good players elevating the system? His system couldn't elevate Kolarov and Zabaletta (who were PL winners as well) after all.
Klopp couldn't elevate his defense without Van Dijk coming in. Poch's system couldn't elevate his players after they'd gotten a little older and didn't have the legs to do all his high intensity pressing anymore. I'm genuinely curious about what you mean here.
That's not what I said, I specifically said that we look disjointed that's the key word. It's as if you guys don't read what is written and take everything as an offence. Since you used City as an example, when they lost De Bruyne it didn't change a thing, they weren't less disjointed, Guardiola tweaked things and David Silva/Sterling compensated. When we lose a single key player we are totally different, at the moment we rely on individuals more than individuals rely on the system. It may change overtime, I'm not burrying Ole, I'm not attacking him but simply pointing the finger at one of the last question marks. Can we cope without one of our key player, can we find tactical way to compensate?
No I'm not. The team looking more disjointed when missing out on Pogba or Bruno is what led you to believe the system generally doesn't elevate players, I disagree with that. These are playmakers and game-changers. It doesn't tell me anything about the system if they are missing, they are key midfielders. I think the only way you could minimise the impact of quality in midfield without losing out is if you play something like Klopp, where you need workhorses who might be easier to replace but then again they have struggled in gameplay when their important fullbacks have been out injured. It's just the nature of the game, and not a point I would hold against any manager. It's up to the managers to figure it out by getting quality backups that can fill in without not much loss of quality, and if not just minor changes in tactics to make sure we win.
That is why I disagree, because I actually think Ole has proved he can do with less in a pinch. The win against PSG is probably the most noticeable example.
We look disjointed compared to how we look with Pogba and Bruno, but we have not been looking disjointed compared to how we looked under Mourinho. Far from it, and he has gotten many players to shine in the system like Fred, McTominay, Martial, Rashford etc. Players who has had their best ever season under him, even without Pogba and Bruno there.
Not just them, the same thing happens with Rashford or Martial. And we weren't good against PSG, if that's your example then we will never see eye to eye.
I'm not taking offense I'm just questioning this idea that good managers can take ordinary players and somehow make them top players in the right "system". Pep's advantage was that he had ample quality players he could turn to Silva/Sterling in De Bruyne's absence and still put out a very cohesive team.
The reason we appear disjointed is that for example against Brighton when we replaced Bruno with Periera, Periera got the ball in similar situations but kept losing it. We just have a lack of quality in our depth. Meanwhile Ole has absolutely had to adapt for most of this season without Pogba, or Rashford/Martial. He's played James as a second striker to good effect in a few games (Liverpool at home for example), he's used Greenwood as a CF (Spurs) and even got a couple of decent games out of Lingard as a false striker (City away). He's tweaked Pogba's role to get the best out of Fred at various points in the season as well. Do those not count?
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"at the moment we rely on individuals more than individuals rely on the system"
Don't take this the wrong way but I think you've convinced yourself of this paradigm and I'm not buying it. Every good team has a system that relies on good players making it work and the good players rely on the system to play cohesively. Pep's team looked very uncohesive without his 50 million FBs to make it look cohesive. We have a good system but a limited number of good players to make the system look good. Hence the lack of cohesion when we don't have Bruno. But we were still 5th in the league without him so Ole must have done something right.
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Remove all the players and what is left. We won though. If just the tone of my posts made you disagree, maybe you are right.
Before lockdown we had Rash, Pogba and Martial out injured, beat City during that period and currently on a decent run of 15???
I said one player but we are going nowhere. And it's not the tone of your post but the content I disagree with which is what I said.
There has definitely been some improvements tactically, but I don’t think we’re ever going to be a Barcelona type team under him, which is fine as that’s not the only way to aspire to play.
I think it’s pretty harsh judging him on how we play without Bruno and Pogba, once there’s some good back ups I think the dip in quality won’t be so bad. Also, I’d prefer if we tried to keep one of them on the pitch. I don’t think it was essential to take Pogba off so early last night, although it was proved to be correct as we didn’t concede.
I think it’s pretty harsh judging him on how we play without Bruno and Pogba, once there’s some good back ups I think the dip in quality won’t be so bad. Also, I’d prefer if we tried to keep one of them on the pitch. I don’t think it was essential to take Pogba off so early last night, although it was proved to be correct as we didn’t concede.
That's fine, Chief. I can add that I think it's perfectly natural to have doubts about Ole's abilities longterm.
Of course top managers can. That's what Klopp did with Dortmund and why his players mainly failed outside of it, that's what Pep did with Zinchenko, Delph and many other situations including playing without De Bruyne, that's what SAF did for a large part of his career. And he didn't tweak Pogba's role that's the one he was playing from day one, the difference is Bruno instead of Lingard.
But it's not what I did, I said that it's the one thing that he hasn't shown and it's not a deal breaker. My point being that he is a manager more than a tactician, he won't really elevate the team through a system which isn't an issue, it's just not his style.
I posted something similar a little while ago when talking about the style of play and some of the concerns posters have about Ole implementing a style of play that breaks down teams who sit back etc.
Ultimately it has to come from the manager, from the top, one would assume. But if the assistant manager and importantly the coaches can be cherry picked in order to help Ole implement that style then great.
I think a Queiroz type appointment, if there is such a person, would be ideal - somebody who can further stamp the desired style of play into the team.
I expect Ole appointed Phelan for his man management and knowledge of the club. McKenna seems to be more tactically involved with Ole from what I gather, perhaps we should give him a bit of praise and a chance at progressing in the role?
But If there is a ready made coach who would improve this aspect more quickly then I’d be all for that.
While I agree that top managers elevate the performance levels of players, they generally do so by finding a system that suits most of them. As far as KdB's example is concerned, City don't lack depth in attacking positions. Most of their backups, if not all, are good enough to start for Arsenal, Spurs, Chelsea and maybe us as well. That's why an injury to a player as important as KdB does not derail them. However, we did see the impact when Laporte got injured or Fernandinho was unavailable - as these players don't have quality backups.
For us, over time, as we start getting quality options on bench, I think that problem will get resolved as well
Given a choice of Poch, would still sack him in the summer as things stand .But If he gets top 4 he deserves one more season and he should continue.
The damage was too much from March 2019 to Feb 2020 and couple of good performances with an inspired signing wouldn't change my opinion.
For the current season we are at 1.62 points per game. Since he took over, its 1.72 and thats mid table form. He is so lucky that our top 4 chasers are equally bad or we wouldn't be even having this conversation now. Fair play to him, we are still in a shout for CL and that's our minimum target. So let's see where we are end of the season.
The damage was too much from March 2019 to Feb 2020 and couple of good performances with an inspired signing wouldn't change my opinion.
For the current season we are at 1.62 points per game. Since he took over, its 1.72 and thats mid table form. He is so lucky that our top 4 chasers are equally bad or we wouldn't be even having this conversation now. Fair play to him, we are still in a shout for CL and that's our minimum target. So let's see where we are end of the season.
Laporte is a good point, I don't really agree with the midfield because for example I think that Gundogan has been terrible for City and yet his presence in midfield has not dramatically changed them when they had to use him, they aren't as good but they are not disjointed either. I could give you Bernardo Silva though, he is a very good alternative.
I think you're partly right. But I think you're also confusing elevation with using certain qualities. For example, what Pep absolutely requires in his fullbacks is that they be physically fit and be decently composed on the ball and be good at passing confidently to the options that other players give them. Within that frame certain players will be better than others, but Delph and Zinchenko worked fine within that frame. Now under a different system Delph might never be a good fullback. Thats not necessarily elevation.
I take your point but I think Ole has done this at various point of the season with varying success. We've played Shaw as a CB in a 3 with Williams as a WB for example.
I think its pointless to talk about what PPG is mid table form and what is not. Each season is different and a different number of points wins you the league and gets top 4. The idea that at this point you'd sack Ole would absolutely demolish any and all progress we've made this season. And I wouldn't blame any of the players from losing all faith in the club itself (I would) as a stable entity that knows what its doing. It would start another rebuild process with another round of a complete team rehaul as certain players just cannot play in Poch's system.
Whichever way this goes, I still think he should be universally appreciated by the United support for coming in in the circumstances he did, steadying the ship, uniting the club and giving us our identity back, and offloading players who were never going to have a future here in the style of football we should be aiming to play.
Considering all of this and the bigger picture, he’s done a smashing job. Of course, we’d all love to be further up the table and to have a points total deserving of our performances, but that will come in time hopefully. I’m really rooting for him and if he was to take us back to the summit of English football, I doubt you’d get a more uplifting story in world football. We were in the depths of despair for most of the last seven years. Should we become successful again under Solskjaer, it would be the ultimate comeback story.
Considering all of this and the bigger picture, he’s done a smashing job. Of course, we’d all love to be further up the table and to have a points total deserving of our performances, but that will come in time hopefully. I’m really rooting for him and if he was to take us back to the summit of English football, I doubt you’d get a more uplifting story in world football. We were in the depths of despair for most of the last seven years. Should we become successful again under Solskjaer, it would be the ultimate comeback story.
But that's the thing, for SAF, Klopp or Guardiola the profile of a player is often enough, they can effectively work with it even though the player is otherwise "subpar". But with many managers the profile isn't as important as the overall level of the player, their tactical framework won't elevate players, it's not goint to hide some of their shortcomings and highlight their qualities. Too often our players have been exposed outside of the ideal first eleven with the exceptions of games where we decided to play as underdogs, which to be fair to Ole shows that he is a good tactician or at least his staff isn't hopeless. I'm not trying to make a black and white statement where he is either terrible or great, I'm simply pointing to something that may be an issue at some point in the future, particularly when you want to be the best team in the world, when you play against the likes of Real Madrid, Bayern Munich or even Barcelona you don't have a clear advantage in terms of squad strength it's all about the ability to be more than the sum of your parts and often you have to work around injuries, players bad form or suspensions.
You just have to look at Barcelona in the last 3 or 4 years, I would make the same point about Valverde and currently Quique Setién or Emery at PSG.
Which is fair but you're discounting the PSG game as an example of Ole having a clearly poorer playing squad and still winning. You can't expect us to completely outplay a much superior squad simply via a tactical adjustment. Also I would like to remind you that we were a much poorer playing XI than City when we faced them at the Etihad but we completely outplayed them in the first 20 minutes and then coasted the rest of the way. So I'm a little dismissive of your concern. As long as we're consistently beating mid to lower table teams (which is the big thing we've been lacking this season - hence I'm celebrating these wins as though they were big wins and not "just Brighton near the relegation zone") and being as good as we've been in the big games this season I see no reason of concern from a tactical POV for Ole. We'll win some against the big boys in the CL, and we'll lose some. Even SAF only won the CL twice.
Ole has performed very well imo, people seem to forget this was a rebuild and that it was a given that there was going to be ups and downs on the way. I still believe fully in Ole, and I believe that he will succeed at the club for many years. I hope he gets to strengthen the squad even more next window, and at the same time the young players have gained loads of experience and the squad will be better for it next season. Ole is in my mind perfect for the club and consistency and league position will only get better from now on.
Because we weren't good and PSG virtually shot themselves in the foot. I'm also not talking about just one game but a long period of time where we were underwhelming from March 2019 to almost January 2020. I feel that some of you have decided to totally ignore a big part of the last 18 months. And it's bit strange to be dismissive of a minor concern when the bolded part has been a problem this season and the reason why we are fifth with a sub 50% winning rate.
I would have sacked him earlier without any doubt, but things have changed dramatically recently. The performances are overally much better, and United finally seem to be playing like a big club again. Definitely, if this keeps going on, he must be given more time, and I wouldn't base it on whether we finish top 4 or not. It's performances that I always take more interest than results short-term, and in my eyes, things have picked up a lot.
Wow!
I think most of that has to do with lacking genuine creative players for most of the season. Don't get me wrong, it could all still go to pot, but I think the system was crying out for a genuinely creative number 10 for most of the season. You talked about profiles, our system needs someone who can receive the ball between the lines that is fizzed in with pace and link play up with the strikers. Lingard and Periera were terrible at that barring a few games now and again (I actually think Periera will get better at it and develop into a lesser Bruno kind of player over the next coupe of years, Lingard should be done). So I'm positive that with another creative addition (or even if one of Bruno/Pogba plays) we'll be much better at those fixtures next season. Again it might all go to pot, but thats where I am right now.
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Yes we were underwhelming for good amount of time and yes Ole has to be questioned but tell me do you think any manager would have made us better with lingard and periera being their primary creative players? Even pep has attributed many times that a manager is as good as his players. I am not saying Ole is equal to pep, no way close but Ole had a hard job and the reason we are 5th isn't solely because of his doing. We had an average creative midfielders with pogba being out.
You may have a different opinion but no manager with their system can.make Lingard or Periera better. And it's not like Ole has not improved players, he has, rashford, martial, shaw, Mctominay, Fred all look much better player now than before.
No system can work to make a combination featuring 2 or more of Pereira, Lingard and Mata a competent midfield. Would Liverpool win so many if VvD was out for 6 months? We know what happened to City without Laporte. We've seen Pep in Season 1 when his defence (and keeper) were 7 shades of sh*te.
Most often, the team that wins the title doesn't just have a great squad, but also has great luck with injuries / suspensions to their key players. Also, we probably would have a very different discussion if we'd signed Bruno in the summer (hindsight, of course, but still). With Bruno, even before Pogba's return and even with Rashford out, we ground out the wins and got results. Before that, with Pogba out, our midfield had 0 spark. With him in, there is still something even if one of him and Pogba misses a game / is rested.
Was discussing this just yesterday. So to all those bemoaning a lack of depth, think of this. If next season, we keep this entire first XI (assuming we have a crap transfer window, which we most likely won't), and Liverpool suffer the kind of injury nightmare we endured this time, would it be too outlandish to think we'd finish above them? I'm not saying it will happen. I'm just saying that injuries to the key first team players are absolutely critical in determining how seasons pan out. Just look at the number of games the spine features in for any team that has had great success and you will see that while bench strength is important, it's a distant second to luck with injuries.
I wasn’t referring to you mate, it was just a viewpoint that I’d seen repeated over the last few days.
It could well be what separates us from the very top level teams, but we won’t know until we get the quality to challenge them.
I think regardless of what happens at end of season (4th and a trophy, or outside top4 and no trophies), I think he has to stay. It would be disappointing if we dont win the rest of our games / make top4, but I think there are so many positives around him:
-Tactics vs top teams
-built a strong starting team (with good transfers) which doesnt see tinkering for the sake of it
-good man management / plays people in their preferred position
-reliance on youth and using them almost perfectly.
I think its a shame we wasted so much money post fergie before getting Ole cos that would have defo been useful even if having to pay over the odds now to get the right transfer in.
-Tactics vs top teams
-built a strong starting team (with good transfers) which doesnt see tinkering for the sake of it
-good man management / plays people in their preferred position
-reliance on youth and using them almost perfectly.
I think its a shame we wasted so much money post fergie before getting Ole cos that would have defo been useful even if having to pay over the odds now to get the right transfer in.
It would be so exciting to see Ole’s United in Champions League next season. Especially when you see his record against some big teams like Chelsea, City and PSG. I think there is a good foundation to something big in this young promising squad. Lets see what future brings 
Also, I see some people talking about ’false dawns’ etc. But I think we all can agree that we have seen some great progress under Ole overall.
Also, I see some people talking about ’false dawns’ etc. But I think we all can agree that we have seen some great progress under Ole overall.
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There is no system that elevates Lingard and Pereira from being players that would struggle to get a game for Watford to players that regularly win games for United.
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