Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion

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Anustart89

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The idea was to attack the space left behind their defensive line if Chelsea went for the attack as they usually do. So you'd need someone with good pace. Problem is they didn't. They played with a deep line for most of the match.
That's where we fundamentally disagree. You (and Ole) wrongly believe that all there is to counter-attacking is to be able to run fast. Dan James can do that. But if running fast without the ball is the only ability required to score goals from counter-attacks, then why isn't he banging them in or providing tons of assists? He's not making intelligent runs, he's poor with his use of the ball, he can't dribble past a player once the ball's at his feet and he's not picking out intelligent passes.

Honestly, in a team otherwise set up to counter-attack with one spot to fill, I'd rather have Mata than James. Not to get on the end of the pass but to spot, pick out and accurately play a good pass to a quick player, like Matic did for Greenwood for Bruno's goal against Brighton. We had Greenwood and Cavani on the bench who could've done one half each if not fit to play a full game, van de Beek's an intelligent runner, as is Bruno. There was enough talent in the squad to counter-attack without James, so why he's still getting games is beyond me as he hasn't shown any inclination to be stepping up to this level. Well, to be honest, it's not beyond me. It's due to Ole's insistence on a 4-2-3-1 and forcing poor players in the team because they play a particular position that needs filling.

If anything, James's best period for the club was in his first month and then he's regressed under the current management, like so many other players.

As for the rest of the post, you've basically described his good characteristics as "he's Jesse Lingard", and that's not really a reason as to why he should be getting in the team, is it?
 

Strelok

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That's where we fundamentally disagree. You (and Ole) wrongly believe that all there is to counter-attacking is to be able to run fast. Dan James can do that. But if running fast without the ball is the only ability required to score goals from counter-attacks, then why isn't he banging them in or providing tons of assists? He's not making intelligent runs, he's poor with his use of the ball, he can't dribble past a player once the ball's at his feet and he's not picking out intelligent passes.

Honestly, in a team otherwise set up to counter-attack with one spot to fill, I'd rather have Mata than James. Not to get on the end of the pass but to spot, pick out and accurately play a good pass to a quick player, like Matic did for Greenwood for Bruno's goal against Brighton. We had Greenwood and Cavani on the bench who could've done one half each if not fit to play a full game, van de Beek's an intelligent runner, as is Bruno. There was enough talent in the squad to counter-attack without James, so why he's still getting games is beyond me as he hasn't shown any inclination to be stepping up to this level. Well, to be honest, it's not beyond me. It's due to Ole's insistence on a 4-2-3-1 and forcing poor players in the team because they play a particular position that needs filling.

If anything, James's best period for the club was in his first month and then he's regressed under the current management, like so many other players.

As for the rest of the post, you've basically described his good characteristics as "he's Jesse Lingard", and that's not really a reason as to why he should be getting in the team, is it?
Bold part: if James can do that, he's not only good for counters but he could probably displace Rashford I think.

Well truth is we'll never agree, let's leave this here.
 

georgipep

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Those of you who arent of the plastic reactionary impatient OleOut mob explain to me how you deal with said morons?
I only see three possible options:
a) you ignore them (but then you get sad because they infect more and more people)
b) you troll them (but then some don't get the sarcasm and they infect more and more people)
c) you try to reason and point out the logical falacies, rely on objectivity and factual evidence (but then you waste your time and that effort takes a significant mental toll)

I mostly go for a) and c) but I feel that redcafe, in general, has become incredibly popular and thus filled with more of all types of users (including the ones you refer to), and I can probably use a break of it.
 

Withnail

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I only see three possible options:
a) you ignore them (but then you get sad because they infect more and more people)
b) you troll them (but then some don't get the sarcasm and they infect more and more people)
c) you try to reason and point out the logical falacies, rely on objectivity and factual evidence (but then you waste your time and that effort takes a significant mental toll)

I mostly go for a) and c) but I feel that redcafe, in general, has become incredibly popular and thus filled with more of all types of users (including the ones you refer to), and I can probably use a break of it.
Probably an extension of c but

d) certain threads go on ignore from time to time.
 

Andycoleno9

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I only see three possible options:
a) you ignore them (but then you get sad because they infect more and more people)
b) you troll them (but then some don't get the sarcasm and they infect more and more people)
c) you try to reason and point out the logical falacies, rely on objectivity and factual evidence (but then you waste your time and that effort takes a significant mental toll)

I mostly go for a) and c) but I feel that redcafe, in general, has become incredibly popular and thus filled with more of all types of users (including the ones you refer to), and I can probably use a break of it.
Facts, logic and objectivity are biggest Ole's enemy. All threads about Ole are:
objectivity and facts (Ole out) vs subjectivity (Ole in)
 

abbulf

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I only see three possible options:
a) you ignore them (but then you get sad because they infect more and more people)
b) you troll them (but then some don't get the sarcasm and they infect more and more people)
c) you try to reason and point out the logical falacies, rely on objectivity and factual evidence (but then you waste your time and that effort takes a significant mental toll)

I mostly go for a) and c) but I feel that redcafe, in general, has become incredibly popular and thus filled with more of all types of users (including the ones you refer to), and I can probably use a break of it.
a) is working out quite well for me. I have been actively ignoring people for quite some time now and this place is becoming less annoying almost day by day.

Sad that it had to come to that, but for me it was either a) or leaving the forum.
 

Withnail

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Facts, logic and objectivity are biggest Ole's enemy. All threads about Ole are:
objectivity and facts (Ole out) vs subjectivity (Ole in)
Sure mate :lol:

You're not doing yourself any favors by claiming those with a different opinion to you lack objectivity, logic and don't deal in facts.

This is the very definition of echo chamber thinking and leaves no room for genuine discussion.
 

Stacks

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It took Klopp 5 years to return Liverpool to being contenders and they weren’t anywhere near as bad as the current arsenal side is. Also took Pochettino 5 years to get Spurs 3rd and to a CL final.

You think there’s a quick fix? You think Arsenal can simultaneously strengthen themselves and weaken the teams that have overtaken themselves in the last couple of years? It doesn’t matter what people should expect or where a team deserve to be. Nottingham Forrest won back to back European cups, do you think they sit around and talk about the past? People have to be realistic, and wake the feck up to the current situation.
in klopps 3rd full season they challenged for the title. In his 2nd full season he made CL final
 

Andycoleno9

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He was also backed by the board.
And Ole isn't? Can we stop with that already? He spent 300mil. He didn't get Sancho and that is it. What is backing by your standards? Give me one billion and buy me new top first 11?
He was backed.
He got defender, 2 full backs, two midfielders, 2 strikers, one winger. All that on top what was pretty good team. Sure, not all of them were his A plan (Ighalo or James) but he got what he wanted.
 

romufc

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Most managers are backed to sum degree although he did not get Van Dijk when he initially wanted him. Had to wait. He also did not want Salah
Yes, managers get backed to some degree. The difference is, Liverpool bought into the Klopp way and backed him not just for one window.

He did want wingers though, he got Mane, Salah, Ox, Gini, Robbo and VVD when he qualified for the CL. The season after he got Fabhino, Keita, Allison.

We qualified for the CL, the manager wanted a winger, CB and Grealish. He got none of the players he wanted. Fair enough, you cannot always get the players you want but you should get players in the position the manager wants no?
 

romufc

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And Ole isn't? Can we stop with that already? He spent 300mil. He didn't get Sancho and that is it. What is backing by your standards? Give me one billion and buy me new top first 11?
He was backed.
He got defender, 2 full backs, two midfielders, 2 strikers, one winger. All that on top what was pretty good team. Sure, not all of them were his A plan (Ighalo or James) but he got what he wanted.
Backing does not mean you back him for one season and then stop? Backing is trusting the manager.

Backing in my standards is, if a manager wants a winger, the club deliver a winger. Does not have to be Sancho. The reason we are all having a go at Ole for playing James is exactly the evidence you need of a manager not being backed.

This is the problem, spending money means backing? No its not.

We all knew, we were lacking a winger for 7 years. Come on he got sold to dry in the transfer window, if you cannot see that then there is no point discussing this.

Spending money on things we already have is not backing.
 

crossy1686

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in klopps 3rd full season they challenged for the title. In his 2nd full season he made CL final
Have you seen how much money Klopp has spent to get to that point? Don't forget, he got VVD and Alisson when he wanted them. Solksjaer wanted Sancho and Grealish and got neither.
 

DomesticTadpole

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Backing does not mean you back him for one season and then stop? Backing is trusting the manager.

Backing in my standards is, if a manager wants a winger, the club deliver a winger. Does not have to be Sancho. The reason we are all having a go at Ole for playing James is exactly the evidence you need of a manager not being backed.

This is the problem, spending money means backing? No its not.

We all knew, we were lacking a winger for 7 years. Come on he got sold to dry in the transfer window, if you cannot see that then there is no point discussing this.

Spending money on things we already have is not backing.
If Ole was determined he wanted Sancho then the club had a problem. We might just go through this next summer, so unless one of the kids we have just signed looks the business, he better have a sensible alternative. Not players who are on the injury table more often than not.
 

romufc

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If Ole was determined he wanted Sancho then the club had a problem. We might just go through this next summer, so unless one of the kids we have just signed looks the business, he better have a sensible alternative. Not players who are on the injury table more often than not.
Ole can say who he wants but if we cannot afford the player, the club and Ole should be discussing alternatives. We all knew this would happen, if an injury or suspension came, we would be left with Dan James. Its exactly what has happened.

Playing VDB left wing does not solve anything. Why do we always want to play players out of position?
 

amolbhatia50k

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Yes, managers get backed to some degree. The difference is, Liverpool bought into the Klopp way and backed him not just for one window.

He did want wingers though, he got Mane, Salah, Ox, Gini, Robbo and VVD when he qualified for the CL. The season after he got Fabhino, Keita, Allison.

We qualified for the CL, the manager wanted a winger, CB and Grealish. He got none of the players he wanted. Fair enough, you cannot always get the players you want but you should get players in the position the manager wants no?
Klopp got them to play incredible attacking football pre big spending. Ole has already spent big and has us playing average football. It's almost like comparing a top manager with one who isn't one and never has been one.
 
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Is it because we don't have that 'sitter'?

If we had prime Kante, it would be an option but would anyone trust Matic/McT/Fred there on their own against quality opposition?
This is why we should have prioritised a DM instead of VDB
 

amolbhatia50k

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Have you seen how much money Klopp has spent to get to that point? Don't forget, he got VVD and Alisson when he wanted them. Solksjaer wanted Sancho and Grealish and got neither.
Klopp got VVD late. Ole got Maguire, Bruno and AWB for 180 million. He's spent around 250-300 million all in all FFS.

Have you seen how much Klopp spent before he got Liverpool playing smashing attacking football? That's the sign of a quality manager not one who finishes third due to Chelsea and Leicester being crap and now has 7 points in 5 games.

People who merely focus on 4th/3rd!! /No trophies in the first three years is what all great managers do, are the same ones who couldn't spot the great work Klopp was doing and focused on Mourinho's epic EL achievement.

Look for excellence and you'll find that top managers do it whether it is immediately evident or not. We haven't had a manager do it since SaF.
 

youngrell

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Is it because we don't have that 'sitter'?

If we had prime Kante, it would be an option but would anyone trust Matic/McT/Fred there on their own against quality opposition?
I'd say it's because we do not have that sitter, and that Pogba/Bruno are simply not Silva/De Bruyne.
 

DomesticTadpole

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Ole can say who he wants but if we cannot afford the player, the club and Ole should be discussing alternatives. We all knew this would happen, if an injury or suspension came, we would be left with Dan James. Its exactly what has happened.

Playing VDB left wing does not solve anything. Why do we always want to play players out of position?
I have said all along we need alternatives, also not ones who really don't want to come here and would sulk while picking up a fortune. There must have been somebody who wasn't at one of the big European clubs. It actually worried me slightly that he wanted someone either that good already or the finished article rather than someone he might have to develop. Maybe he feels he has failed with Daniel. Think under present circumstances the Sancho fee was ridiculous. Yet we could have got a DM, obviously he is happy with the work Matic/Fred and McTominay are doing protecting our defence.
 

romufc

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Klopp got them to play incredible attacking football pre big spending. Ole has already spent big and has us playing average football. It's almost like comparing a top manager with one who isn't one and never has been one.
Klopps first full season he finished 4th with +36 goal difference
Oles first full season he finished 3rd with +30 goal difference

Considering Klopp is one of the best managers.
 

youngrell

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Klopp got VVD late. Ole got Mature, Bruno and AWB for 180 million.

Have you seen how much Klopp spent before he got Liverpool playing smashing attacking football? That's the sign of a quality manager not one who finishes third due to Chelsea and Leicester being crap.

People who merely focus on 4th/3rd!! /No trophies in the first three years is what all great managers do, are the same ones who couldn't spot the great work Klopp was doing and focused on Mourinho's epic EL achievement.

Look for excellence and you'll find that top managers do it whether it is immediately evident or not. We haven't had a manager do it since SaF.
You're rewriting history. Liverpool were regularly struggling against parked buses and getting countered often at the beginning of Klopp's reign.
 

romufc

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I have said all along we need alternatives, also not ones who really don't want to come here and would sulk while picking up a fortune. There must have been somebody who wasn't at one of the big European clubs. It actually worried me slightly that he wanted someone either that good already or the finished article rather than someone he might have to develop. Maybe he feels he has failed with Daniel. Think under present circumstances the Sancho fee was ridiculous. Yet we could have got a DM, obviously he is happy with the work Matic/Fred and McTominay are doing protecting our defence.
I agree, how we actually went into 8th season in a row without a winger is beyond me. James was always going to be a punt.

I am not here saying we should have got Sancho, if the fee was too much then get an alternative, even a loan.
 

CG1010

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in klopps 3rd full season they challenged for the title. In his 2nd full season he made CL final
Honestly, there is nothing to say that Ole is at the level of Klopp. But he still has one full season to go and plus this window was mainly us moving sideways rather than forwards. So really expecting him to go for a title challenge is unfair.
 

romufc

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Klopp got VVD late. Ole got Maguire, Bruno and AWB for 180 million. He's spent around 250-300 million all in all FFS.

Have you seen how much Klopp spent before he got Liverpool playing smashing attacking football? That's the sign of a quality manager not one who finishes third due to Chelsea and Leicester being crap and now has 7 points in 5 games.

People who merely focus on 4th/3rd!! /No trophies in the first three years is what all great managers do, are the same ones who couldn't spot the great work Klopp was doing and focused on Mourinho's epic EL achievement.

Look for excellence and you'll find that top managers do it whether it is immediately evident or not. We haven't had a manager do it since SaF.
Klopp got VVD late? But forget about the players he got before ? how ironic.

Isnt Pep a top quality manager? He has 8 points from 5 games? does that make him a crap manager?

So are we saying Liverpool only won the title because 19 other teams were crap?
 

rotherham_red

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Klopp got VVD late. Ole got Maguire, Bruno and AWB for 180 million. He's spent around 250-300 million all in all FFS.

Have you seen how much Klopp spent before he got Liverpool playing smashing attacking football? That's the sign of a quality manager not one who finishes third due to Chelsea and Leicester being crap and now has 7 points in 5 games.

People who merely focus on 4th/3rd!! /No trophies in the first three years is what all great managers do, are the same ones who couldn't spot the great work Klopp was doing and focused on Mourinho's epic EL achievement.

Look for excellence and you'll find that top managers do it whether it is immediately evident or not. We haven't had a manager do it since SaF.
Yeah, it's not like we outperformed every team (including Klopp's Liverpool) on every metric from January to July or anything... :rolleyes:

That Chelsea and Leicester fecked it up is undeniable, but what also shouldn't be denied is that we were also pretty fecking good during that period to reel in the 10 or so points they had on us in the first place.

Your seemingly irrational issue with a club legend being our manager is clouding your judgement.
 

Andycoleno9

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Klopp got VVD late? But forget about the players he got before ? how ironic.

Isnt Pep a top quality manager? He has 8 points from 5 games? does that make him a crap manager?

So are we saying Liverpool only won the title because 19 other teams were crap?
Why always Klopp? Why we keep comparing Ole with Klopp? What about Conte? First season in club and he won a title with 30 wins in 38 games. Ranieri? Title in first season.
 

romufc

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Why always Klopp? Why we keep comparing Ole with Klopp? What about Conte? First season in club and he won a title with 30 wins in 38 games. Ranieri? Title in first season.
Okay, lets sack managers that don't win the title in the first year then. Keep the same energy for every manager.
 
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