Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion

[bsCallout]

Had Martial, Bruni and/or Cavani scored then Fred would have been subbed.

I don't know who I would have trusted to come on for Fred at 1-1.

 

[bsCallout]

Lets just agree to disagree - the fact that we controlled large portions of the game and created so many open chances makes me think the pivotal moment was losing a man. I was confident in getting a goal back if it was XI v XI.
Put it this way, I'd rather we went 2-1 down and had XI v XI than see Fred get sent off and it being 1-1 for 20 minutes. To me, that makes Fred's moment more impactful on the game.

I've never read such nonsense.

How can a sending off when youre already losing after conceeding against the run of play be more important than missing multiple chances when you're having a good spell for the first time in the game that would put you through to the CL with almost certainty.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Jesus so now our fans are saying its ok even if we get knocked out.

How low can your standards go. If we get knocked out it isn't acceptable. Simple as.

It is mental isn't it.

I don't even get why it's an issue for the fans who remain Ole is to just say he fecked up massively last night with subs. It doesn't mean they have to change their minds on him or thin less of him, but it's weird people trying to justify him leaving Fred on, when the entire world could see Fred was a walking red card. It's not like we didn't have Pogba, Matic AND VdB on the bench.

We're still in a position to qualify, we really should be able to get a point against RBL so it's hardly a disaster.

 

[Infra-red]

If we end up in the Europa League, with the significant reduction income that brings (in a year when our finances have already been severely impacted by COVID), it will certainly give the Glazers something to think about.

 

[bsCallout]

It is mental isn't it.

I don't even get why it's an issue for the fans who remain Ole is to just say he fecked up massively last night with subs. It doesn't mean they have to change their minds on him or thin less of him, but it's weird people trying to justify him leaving Fred on, when the entire world could see Fred was a walking red card. It's not like we didn't have Pogba, Matic AND VdB on the bench.

We're still in a position to qualify, we really should be able to get a point against RBL so it's hardly a disaster.

I think most everyone agrees Fred should have come off. Its the arguement that the sending off was more important than not scoring and conceeding. Especially as Fred shouod have been sent off anyway.

 

[robinrooney]

He's been a manager for 10 years and he didn't realise that Fred should be subbed off at HT?????????? Shambolic.

We had 5 subs available with 3 midfielders on the bench. To send Fred back out and not foresee the red was amateurish.

To top it off, went gung ho at the end which leads to the 3rd PSG goal which means they are ahead of us due to the H2H record now in their favour.

Just not good enough to be United manager.

 

[Volumiza]

We're still in a position to qualify, we really should be able to get a point against RBL so it's hardly a disaster.

This is actually very important for everyone to remember.

 

[romufc]

Not being able after 2 years to put a run of winning games together is being found out. Getting beat to shit teams at home like Palace. Ole is still stumbling on a team then changes it, he doesn't know his best team and formation and to get most out of our best players. Donny had been brilliant the last few games, dropped. Back to the protect the two slow defenders at the back with Fred and Scott. Last year when injuries happened I got it, this year he has real options. How can people still defend this shit. We would be competing this season with a better coach.

I'll tell you this, as shit as Lvg and Jose were. They would have the basic sense to sub Fred off earlier, use of one of five subs. React to two changes by them quickly and to sub a player with a shoulder injury. Go on defend it, I want to hear the excuses for his in game management. It's not AFTV with in or out childish thing with the manager every week. He's not good enough to be United coach long term, you know it. He's not winning the league with us, major honours. A big result gets you lot fooled every fecking time.

I agree Donny been brilliant, the reason why we have a big squad is so we can rotate and bring the right players for the right game, there was absolutely no issue with the team yesterday. What would Donny have done? Held Martials hand to score? Stopped them scoring those two goals after deflections?

We had better coaches from 2014-2018, did we compete for PL or CL?

FA cup quarter Final 16/17 - Herrera 2 yellow cards V Chelsea
Premier league 16/17 - Herrera 2 yellow Cards V Burnley
FA cup 14/15 - Di Maria 2 yellow cards v Arsenal
Europa League 16/16 - Eric Bailly 2 yellow cards v St Ettiene

Those were under Jose and LVG so can you explain where the basic sense in those managers were during those games?

React to changes for what? we were playing well, creating chances.... change for sake of changing it?

 

[VP89]

I've never read such nonsense.

How can a sending off when youre already losing after conceeding against the run of play be more important than missing multiple chances when you're having a good spell for the first time in the game that would put you through to the CL with almost certainty.

It sounds like you're struggling to read what I said. I never said the red card was more important than missing chances. I said the red card was a bigger influence on the game than Paris going 2-1 up, because the way we were opening them up in periods of play, we would have most likely clawed a goal back if Cavani got through on goal again, or if Martial had one more chance.

But if it was 1-1, and Fred got his red card, there's little doubting Paris would have gone on to put us away against 10 men.

 

[bsCallout]

It sounds like you're struggling to read what I said. I never said the red card was more important than missing chances. I said the red card was a bigger influence on the game than Paris going 2-1 up, because the way we were opening them up in periods of play, we would have most likely clawed a goal back if Cavani got through on goal again, or if Martial had one more chance.

But if it was 1-1, and Fred got his red card, there's little doubting Paris would have gone on to put us away against 10 men.

No, I completely understood.

Its bonkers to claim it was more pivotal than missing chances to go 1,2 or even 3 goals up. Bonkers to claim it was more pivotal than conceeding. They had the bit between their teeth as soon as the scored against the run of play. That ended our passage of good attacks. They would have sat back on their 2-1 and we wouldnt break them down like we often struggle with.

 

[Nou_Camp99]

Tuchel didn't out do Ole though. The game could have gone either way. At 55 mins they looked on the ropes. The difference was they took more of their chances even if they got a few kind bounces to help them score. We got a kind deflection for our goal too tbf.

That 10 to 15 minute spell after HT was key. We had them on their knees and we couldn't score. You get punished in the CL for missing chances. We've done it to other teams in the past who have missed them vs us.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Tuchel didn't out do Ole though. The game could have gone either way. At 55 mins they looked on the ropes. The difference was they took more of their chances even if they got a few kind bounces to help them score. We got a kind deflection for our goal too tbf.

That 10 to 15 minute spell after HT was key. We had them on their knees and we couldn't score. You get punished in the CL for missing chances. We've done it to other teams in the past who have missed them vs us.

We have been missing chances for years in fact, so either you coach them to be better goalscorers or if that isn't changing anything you get rid and buy ones who can take their chances.

 

[Plymouth Red]

We have been missing chances for years in fact, so either you coach them to be better goalscorers or if that isn't changing anything you get rid and buy ones who can take their chances.

It's also worth remembering that our younger strikers have had the opportunity to tap into both Ibra and Cavani's experience but they don't appear to have learned much if anything from them.

 

[tomaldinho1]

I think most everyone agrees Fred should have come off. Its the arguement that the sending off was more important than not scoring and conceeding. Especially as Fred shouod have been sent off anyway.

That's such a intangible argument though and applies to any match in history. IF we scored one of our chances and IF we hadn't conceded that goal, we'd have won. If Neymar had been a few inches closer to Florenzi's cross, if Mbappe had with the second one... every game always has moments where a player 'should' probably do better or is inches away from deciding the outcome of a game but that is out of a manager's control.

Fred's continued involvement is a decision Ole has direct control over, it is literally his job to decide if Fred should have come off. If we had no other CMs obviously that would be understandable but we had Pogba, Matic and VdB.

 

[miked99]

We didn't deserve to lose last night, let alone lose by two goals. Comparing the two games against PSG to the two games from a couple of years ago, we're a miles better team now.

 

[lex talionis]

Ole got the tactics right, but he failed to recognize the danger Fred put the squad in. Massive managerial error.

And Martial failed to finish his open net sitter.

 

[lex talionis]

That's such a intangible argument though and applies to any match in history. IF we scored one of our chances and IF we hadn't conceded that goal, we'd have won. If Neymar had been a few inches closer to Florenzi's cross, if Mbappe had with the second one... every game always has moments where a player 'should' probably do better or is inches away from deciding the outcome of a game but that is out of a manager's control.

Fred's continued involvement is a decision Ole has direct control over, it is literally his job to decide if Fred should have come off. If we had no other CMs obviously that would be understandable but we had Pogba, Matic and VdB.

On last point, any one of Pogba, Matic and VdB could have and should have been brought in for Fred. There’s no massive drop off in quality from a Fred gone mad to any of those three.

 

[bsCallout]

That's such a intangible argument though and applies to any match in history. IF we scored one of our chances and IF we hadn't conceded that goal, we'd have won. If Neymar had been a few inches closer to Florenzi's cross, if Mbappe had with the second one... every game always has moments where a player 'should' probably do better or is inches away from deciding the outcome of a game but that is out of a manager's control.

Fred's continued involvement is a decision Ole has direct control over, it is literally his job to decide if Fred should have come off. If we had no other CMs obviously that would be understandable but we had Pogba, Matic and VdB.

Youre arguing the same thing.

Yes Ole should be criticised for not subbing Fred.

But the game was not lost because of that decision. The game was lost by the moments on the pitch. The missed chances, the goals conceeded. The swing from both those things happening or not happening is much much bigger than losing Fred.

You cannot conflate the two. Which people are.

The loss cannot be levelled at Ole based on Fred being reckless and him not then taking him off. We had every opportunity to win and fluffed it. When everything was going our way, including Fred not being sent off in the first half, we couldnt execute.

Ole is to blame for that decision but the players should receive the brunt of peoples wrath for their horrible mistakes including Fred headbutting a player.

 

[theklr]

On last point, any one of Pogba, Matic and VdB could have and should have been brought in for Fred. There’s no massive drop off in quality from a Fred gone mad to any of those three.

Thats just nonsense. Matic is too slow for that kind of game and Pogba/VdB has issues defensivly in a double pivot. Fred was playing very controlled until he was wrongly sent off.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

It's also worth remembering that our younger strikers have had the opportunity to tap into both Ibra and Cavani's experience but they don't appear to have learned much if anything from them.

Think Rashford is playing through pain and even though he had an operation is still struggling to get back to his best. He went off injured last night, but Ole thinks he will be fit for Saturday. He got that injury a couple of weeks back. I worry instead of letting them get over injuries they are playing in pain. I know people will say that has been the case going back years, but I do not want his career ruining. Greenwood has had his issues, some we know are true, some are just alleged. Martial is a puzzle. He arrived with a bang, but has not made any progress from there. Is it they are not driven enough to improve, they are happy with their lot?

Ole always goes on about buying players with the right character for Manchester United, if our players are complacent and are not driven to be the best, they are certainly not the right characters.

 

[lex talionis]

Thats just nonsense. Matic is too slow for that kind of game and Pogba/VdB has issues defensivly in a double pivot. Fred was playing very controlled until he was wrongly sent off.

Almost the entire sentient world saw that Fred was going to be sent off. Once we went down to 10 men we were in a heap of shit.

Don’t get me wrong. I completely endorsed the decision to start Fred, but once he escaped a straight sending off Ole should have protected the squad by subbing off Fred at halftime. He had three options to work with for the remaining 45 minutes.

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

He's been a manager for 10 years and he didn't realise that Fred should be subbed off at HT?????????? Shambolic.

We had 5 subs available with 3 midfielders on the bench. To send Fred back out and not foresee the red was amateurish.

To top it off, went gung ho at the end which leads to the 3rd PSG goal which means they are ahead of us due to the H2H record now in their favour.

Just not good enough to be United manager.

But this is the crux of the problem, isn't it? Each one of them brings a different quality to the table and has his own weaknesses too. It could easily have been a damned if you do and damned if you don't situation.

In their criticism, most people forget that for 2/3 of the game, we had PSG where we wanted them. This surely translates into good selections and set-up. And the truth is that we posed a difficult question to them: either come out all guns blazing against our attacking trident which has pace to burn or try to control the game and win it with Neymar/Mbappé's quality against our back-six. They opted for the second and once we weathered the storm of the first 15 minutes, we were pretty much comfortable on the pitch. Given the fact that PSG allowed us, for huge portions of the game, too much time on the ball in the midfield, we were coping just fine.

But this didn't happen by a snap of the fingers or by drawing dots and lines on a piece of paper. It happened by nullifying the threat Neymar and Mbappé presented in the spaces between the lines and by running our arses off on the pitch. The official stats on UEFA's site show that we covered more distance than PSG despite having one less man on the pitch for 20-25 minutes. So, yeah, it's true that Fred raised his profile to the ref. You have Matic, Pogba and VdB to choose from at half-time. Matic can pass the ball around neatly and he can also be solid defensively but he doesn't have Fred's energy levels and in order not to lose sight of Mbappé, he would have stayed very deep most of the time. This means 45 minutes of surrendering the control we had and forcing our front-three very deep on the pitch too. With VdB it would have been the opposite: Good passing game, much distance covered but a huge risk on the defensive side when we already had the score we wanted. We could have used Pogba's vision and passing skill to force the issue but, as said earlier, we already had them where we wanted them and Pogba's a liability defensively.

There are certain games where the dynamic and energetic partnership between Fred and McT in the midfield is our best option. Yesterday, it was one of these games. I have criticized Solskjaer's choices a lot on this forum but, at some point, we must put ourselves in the position of the person who has to make these calls. I won't argue that, if we had taken our chances, we would have been out of sight by the hour mark because we also got in basically no time into a favourable position again with a lucky deflection. I will argue though that Fred's second yellow wasn't the product of a bad tactical decision that was constantly putting the Brazilian in precarious situations. It was a bad first touch when no one was around him. He had managed, rather comfortably, to stay out of trouble since the beginning of the second half.

My point is that many people criticize him for not subbing Fred and speak of the "obvious thing to do" when, in truth, what they scream about is why he didn't surrender a winning tactical position.

On a macro level, i believe there's a discussion to be had about having invested only in VdB in the midfield and about the tactical choice to flood the "3" and the "1" in his 4231 with pure attacking players (in combinations of 3 forwards and 1 creator) when we seem to be overdependent on Bruno's form and sometimes excruciatingly one-dimensional in the way we attack but this is not what hurt us yesterday.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

Thats just nonsense. Matic is too slow for that kind of game and Pogba/VdB has issues defensivly in a double pivot. Fred was playing very controlled until he was wrongly sent off.

Fred was barely doing anything in the second half - he was totally playing within himself. He (understandably) wasn't putting tackles in and he was getting involved in play much less (said it in another thread but in the first 25 minutes of the first half he had double the amount of touches of the ball then he did in the first 25 minutes of the second - a period where we were on top).

Fact is, any of those midfield options would have done a perfectly fine job, and all are certainly better then literally not having anyone there due to a red card.

 

[VP89]

No, I completely understood.

Its bonkers to claim it was more pivotal than missing chances to go 1,2 or even 3 goals up. Bonkers to claim it was more pivotal than conceeding. They had the bit between their teeth as soon as the scored against the run of play. That ended our passage of good attacks. They would have sat back on their 2-1 and we wouldnt break them down like we often struggle with.

Again, it's clear you didn't actually understand because I never once compared it to missing chances. They didn't have "the bit between their teeth" after the goal, the red card happened seconds after the goal, and that changed the way we could go about attacking them.

Yeah, have been reading @VP89 's posts since morning and it seems that he's gone from one end of the spectrum to the correct end of the spectrum.

And honestly, I agree with him with what he's posted today

Thanks, but I feel I haven't gone to extremes of a spectrum, just crediting the team where performances are good and holding them & the manager accountable when it's bad. Looking solely at results when evaluating a thread like this won't be sensible. Results certainly matter but performances do too. We looked more like a United side last night or vs Southampton than we did vs Arsenal or Brighton. Whether you doubt Ole or not I think consistency is required when judging the manager, whoever it is.

 

[theklr]

Fact is, any of those midfield options would have done a perfectly fine job, and all are certainly better then literally not having anyone there due to a red card.

Yes, you might think so , but Ole and his coaching team clearly didnt, and therefore he took a calculated risk .

Not saying it was the correct decision, but I dont think any other would have suited the game better in my opinion.

 

[bsCallout]

Again, it's clear you didn't actually understand because I never once compared it to missing chances. They didn't have "the bit between their teeth" after the goal, the red card happened seconds after the goal, and that changed the way we could go about attacking them.

I haven't gone to extremes of a spectrum, just crediting the team where performances are good and holding them & the manager accountable when it's bad. Looking solely at results when evaluating a thread like this won't be sensible. Results certainly matter but performances do too. We looked more like a United side last night or vs Southampton than we did vs Arsenal or Brighton.

The commentary said literally before Fred got sent off that PSG now have ascendancy.

You really think United had the passage of play still after conceeding against the run of play? Never happens.

I agree on your second paragraph.

Edit.

 

[laughtersassassin]

What nonsense, so he didn't react within three minutes of a formation change and then we went behind and down to ten men and the game is completely different. He obviously wanted to keep Rashford on as he was killing them at the start of the 2nd half, even Robbie Savage could spot that! Apparently VDB was stripped off and ready to come on, most likely for Fred just before the red card (which wasn't even a foul), so he was ready to react just caught by a scabby set-piece goal and then poor Fred touch and then refereeing (though undoubtedly Fred should have been sent off first half). Personally, i would have hooked him at HT but our thinking at home is influenced by the coverage etc.. and we were playing so well that i can understand why Ole didn't change it. Ultimately it proved a mistake that cost us but we were already 2-1 down so you could argue the damage was already done.

The missed chances and slow start were more costly IMO.

The game was lost with the 2nd goal, which was very lucky (like their fist and ours tbf). We played very poorly last night for the first 15 but there were a lot of individual errors (misplaced passes etc...), once we settled i thought we controlled the game for large portions or at worse kept PSG well at bay until the goal/sending off.

PSG are a very good team despite what some people want to believe and if people had perspective and the ability to think about things beyond the immediate moment, they should realise how a game like last night shows how far this team has progressed and is still progressing under this manager. We are competing at an elite level again, not through ultra defensive counter-punching but going toe-to-toe with some of the best players in the world and this is not an aberration, three games in this group against PSG and Leipzig have shown this. It is a miles ahead of where we have been for some time.

So you missed the part where Rashford was injured/struggling for ten minutes and stopped tracking back entirely. Be had ten minutes into identify this and he didn't and it cost us.

 

[AshRK]

Youre arguing the same thing.

Yes Ole should be criticised for not subbing Fred.

But the game was not lost because of that decision. The game was lost by the moments on the pitch. The missed chances, the goals conceeded. The swing from both those things happening or not happening is much much bigger than losing Fred.

You cannot conflate the two. Which people are.

The loss cannot be levelled at Ole based on Fred being reckless and him not then taking him off. We had every opportunity to win and fluffed it. When everything was going our way, including Fred not being sent off in the first half, we couldnt execute.

Ole is to blame for that decision but the players should receive the brunt of peoples wrath for their horrible mistakes including Fred headbutting a player.

Well said. The way our fans (or some at least) just give free pass to our player is unseen and unheard of.

 

[georgipep]

So you missed the part where Rashford was injured/struggling for ten minutes and stopped tracking back entirely. Be had ten minutes into identify this and he didn't and it cost us.

You have noticed, I assume, how players sometimes play through injuries, shake them off (or at least attempt to) or signal when they MUST come off, right?

 

[DomesticTadpole]

You have noticed, I assume, how players sometimes play through injuries, shake them off (or at least attempt to) or signal when they MUST come off, right?

The injury was not one he picked up last night. Bruno signaled that Rashford needed to come off and according to Ole Rashford could be fit for Saturday, so yes he has been and might play through pain again, maybe to the detriment of his performances.

 

[Lynty]

Echoing what everyone is saying really. Leaving Fred on was too large of a gamble and it cost us too much.

The biggest stain on Ole's record so far in my opinion. There really is no excuse available with the options we had on the bench.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Youre arguing the same thing.

Yes Ole should be criticised for not subbing Fred.

But the game was not lost because of that decision. The game was lost by the moments on the pitch. The missed chances, the goals conceeded. The swing from both those things happening or not happening is much much bigger than losing Fred.

You cannot conflate the two. Which people are.

The loss cannot be levelled at Ole based on Fred being reckless and him not then taking him off. We had every opportunity to win and fluffed it. When everything was going our way, including Fred not being sent off in the first half, we couldn't execute.

Ole is to blame for that decision but the players should receive the brunt of peoples wrath for their horrible mistakes including Fred headbutting a player.

This is a perfect example of just trying to argue something for the sake of it, even though it can never be proven.

1. At no point did I say the loss is solely down to Fred being red carded. I said Ole fecked up massively with subs.
2. Unless you are God or have a DeLorean, no one knows how a game could have gone had x,y or z taken their chances. In the same way we do not know what would have happened if Fred was subbed off at HT.

I think it is, however, common sense to say that we would have had a better chance of getting something from the game with 11 men on the pitch. Add in the fact that Ole has seen Fred get away with a stonewall yellow, headbutt a player and escape a stonewall red card and generally be targeted/wound up by PSG players and it makes his decision to leave Fred on even less understandable. As said, we're still well placed to qualify and it's not the end of the world but Ole fecked up massively with regards to his subs last night. I don't think he alone is to blame for the loss, in the same way a manager is never alone in making a team win but he made it less likely we would get something from the game with his actions.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

This is a perfect example of just trying to argue something for the sake of it, even though it can never be proven.

1. At no point did I say the loss is solely down to Fred being red carded. I said Ole fecked up massively with subs.
2. Unless you are God or have a DeLorean, no one knows how a game could have gone had x,y or z taken their chances. In the same way we do not know what would have happened if Fred was subbed off at HT.

I think it is, however, common sense to say that we would have had a better chance of getting something from the game with 11 men on the pitch. Add in the fact that Ole has seen Fred get away with a stonewall yellow, headbutt a player and escape a stonewall red card and generally be targeted/wound up by PSG players and it makes his decision to leave Fred on even less understandable. As said, we're still well placed to qualify and it's not the end of the world but Ole fecked up massively with regards to his subs last night. I don't think he alone is to blame for the loss, in the same way a manager is never alone in making a team win but he made it less likely we would get something from the game with his actions.

The subs were chucking anybody on and hoping something happened.

 

[Bilbo]

We didn't deserve to lose last night, let alone lose by two goals. Comparing the two games against PSG to the two games from a couple of years ago, we're a miles better team now.

Undoubtedly

 

[Majima]

We've got a manager learning on the job. Never been at this level before. We've seen Ole making naïve mistakes for two years now, surely people can expect it by now?

 

[pacifictheme]

We've got a manager learning on the job. Never been at this level before. We've seen Ole making naïve mistakes for two years now, surely people can expect it by now?

Is this an excuse? I don't quite understand. An inexperienced manager will make mistakes but he's got over 100 games as manager of the club now so when is he classed as no longer inexperienced?

Also I think every single united fan could see Fred needed subbing, yet with 5 subs available he didn't sub him. That was beyond inexperienced. A real basic failure.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

We've got a manager learning on the job. Never been at this level before. We've seen Ole making naïve mistakes for two years now, surely people can expect it by now?

Manchester United should have the best available manager, not somebody learning on the job. He's been a manager for ten years, he should have learnt something by now.

 

[RedDevil@84]

You cannot conflate the two. Which people are.

It makes sense to conflate. I am surprised that you don't think being a man down doesn't make a difference to our overall attempt to come back into the game. We had our moments. But it is not like we had overwhelming dominant or something.

 

[romufc]

Manchester United should have the best available manager, not somebody learning on the job. He's been a manager for ten years, he should have learnt something by now.

Who is the best manager available?

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Who is the best manager available?

Most managers are available if you really want them.