Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion

[crossy1686]

Here's hoping the yesterday win is just a beginning of a very strong finish. Do not bottle it when it matters the most. No more meltdowns please. We are the strongest team left in the Europa League, just go all out for it. A trophy, guaranteed CL next season qualifying from Pot 1, just makes too much sense.

We’re still going to struggle against teams that play a low block against us, nothing we can do about that apart from hope we have the ability to win those tight games.

Mentality has been really good from the players so far this season, I just hope they can carry it on for the next 10 games + cup games

 

[Foxbatt]

For some people supporting a football club is ALL About the success, no matter what!

I feel a little sorry for that type of fan

Agree with you. It should also be added supporting a club because a certain player joined the club or a certain manager joined the club.

 

[90 + 5min]

Hypothesis, no proof. I would also say he will win the league comfortably with this united squad. Specially that city does not have him anymore.

You can't really mean that? I thought that people in general had Liverpool and ManCity miles before us. That we would even struggle to go top 4.

His most expensive player is 65m. Many of his players are not even above 20m like Torres and Gundugan. He buys as much as we do. Nobody forced Ole to spend 80m on Maguire (I like Maguire) while Dias was available for ½ that price. I think Pep would do few changes to this united squad in and the second season he would be a champion.

I know that you have agenda towards Solskjaer. And it is ok. But to ignore everything that points to Solskjaer doing very well is not way to go. Neither is ignoring people time and time show you that you are wrong with your "facts".

 

[Giggsyking]

It’s a bit sad to be honest. I’ve been fairly down the line with Solskjaer where possible, which means I’m on the side of support him while we keep progressing, so by proxy I’m pro solskjaer. That doesn’t mean I won’t criticise him when he warrants it.

However, at the start of this season, not a single person on this forum thought we would be top of the league at Christmas and be the second best team in the league on average. To decide the manager needs sacking because we won’t win the league this season, with this squad, is about as short sighted and embarrassing as it gets for United fans. It’s spoiled entitlement at its finest.

We’re the best counter attacking team in the league, maybe even Europe. We struggle to break down teams who play a low block because we don’t have the players in midfield to unlock defences so the winners in those games always come from someone taking on 4 players and finding the back of the next, a penalty or Bruno doing something brilliant.

We’re literally a couple of players away from running the league. It’s right there, I could paint you a picture it’s that obvious.

Nice to talk to some logic here. How long a rebuild should be? Do you think in this day of modern football 3-5 years as you and many others see Ole needs to challenge for the league is something normal for a clb of our size? where are the guarantees? assessment during the process? If after 5 years of waisted time and money he fails, who will be held accountable? him, no he will already had been collecting 7m per year and by the end of this "rebuild" he will have collected gigantic fortune by selling us the fans nothing but words for the future. Who else should be held accountable? Ed? never going to happen in a million year. That is why gigantic clubs like Munich, Madrid, etc give short time for managers to prove themselves by winning big trophies ( in Spain and Germany the league is not the bar but the CL is). We are a big club like these clubs and we should give managers shorter time taking into consideration they spend a large sum compared to other clubs in the league and the rest of europre.

About the sacking, I was clear, if he showed signs of a fight for the title (not necessarily win it) then I know we are making progress. Otherwise the tools you measure progress with is not convincing to me. The position in the league (if not top of the league) is relative, because it does not show you how good you are in comparison with yourself the season before. To know if you are progressing a title challenge can be a measurement tool because you know you are few points behind from winning the league which can be corrected the season after.

 

[#07]

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Michael Cox complimenting Ole...

...Honestly this is as shocking to me as how anonymous De Bruyne was yesterday!

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

He didn't take over that squad though did he?

He took over the squad that was 11 points off 4th and nearer to the relegation places in terms of points than they were to the top. At the end of that season he promptly took a sledgehammer to it and sold/let go that Jose team's starting: RB (Valencia), CB (Smalling), CM (Herrera), RW (Sanchez), and ST (Lukaku). He then eventually marginalised (and eventually sold in the case of the former) the starting LB (Young) and DM (Matic) too. While then making further sales like Darmian, in addition to the earlier sale of Fellaini, and even further marginalising Rojo and Jones with a view to selling the both of them.

What Ole got in return was Maguire and AWB, and a back up winger in James to start with and then an emergency loan for Ighalo and the missing piece Bruno 6 months later. Not a lot in the grand scheme of things when you consider who he let go/sold. So he instead built around players who either Jose didn't want (Martial, Pogba, Fred, Shaw) or players he didn't particularly rate highly or thought were squad players (McTominay, Rashford, Lingard) in addition to the young players who Jose never really gave much of a chance to like Axel and Pereira.

It really wasn't the same squad at all last season and I maintain that getting top 4 with that team was a good to great achievement from Ole last season, and to sustain the progress and improve it to the extent that we have 12 more points than we had at the same stage last season, is even better.

Was it the worst squad since Fergie was the question, and no, it wasn’t. The squad LVG left behind was utter turd, all the players you mention bar 1 were in the LvG squad
+washed up Rooney, washed up Schweiny, Schneiderlin, Depay

We’re not debating if he took a sledgehammer to it, LvG did that, Mourinho did that and Ole did that. And Ole’s squad after 2.5 years is clearly the best squad.
But who left behind the worst? It was clearly fecking LvG, that squad was horrendous.

 

[romufc]

Was it the worst squad since Fergie was the question, and no, it wasn’t. The squad LVG left behind was utter turd, all the players you mention bar 1 were in the LvG squad
+washed up Rooney, washed up Schweiny, Schneiderlin, Depay

We’re not debating if he took a sledgehammer to it, LvG did that, Mourinho did that and Ole did that. And Ole’s squad after 2.5 years is clearly the best squad.
But who left behind the worst? It was clearly fecking LvG, that squad was horrendous.

In Jose's first window he got to spend money for Zlatan, Pogba, Bailly, Mikhi which is considerable amounts compared to what Ole got?

He even had to sell a striker to get funds in for another signing. Jose got 2/3 of the best European players at that time.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Ah stop it, your killing me.

Fan of your club’s players I see.

 

[TheGame]

You want a civilised conversation whilst saying I practice my long-winded arguments in a mirror. Hypocrite warning....

So you're not a spoilt fan, but you expect us to be top of the league, despite City's squad containing literally 2-3 world class players in every position? Come on mate.... Our lack of quality squad depth is the reason why we've fallen off. It's unsustainable to keep up with them for 38 games. If Greenwood looks off it, we have Dan James. If Dan James doesn't play well, we have nobody else, just academy players. City have 4 world class players they can and do happily rotate in that position.

You keep saying some of the points lost are ridiculous, but some of the points gained, are brilliant. This is the definition of how a league season works, with a table. We finish in a position based on our average performance all season. You can't just highlight 5 games in the season and sit there saying "its ridiculous we lost the points". Is it? We lose severe quality when we rotate more than 3 players, we're mid re-build and our squad will get better. This is why I expect us to be top 4 material and not title challenger material. But you? You expect us to be joint on points with City. It's ridiculous expectations after they've spent over a billion under the same manager on the same vision in order to have the best squad in England. Thats why when Mason comes out, Dan James comes in and not Mahrez, for example.

Explain the mathematics behind squad building to anyone, and they'll say "based on the fact City have spent considerably more under the same manager and under the same vision, they should be comfortably clear at the top of the league".

Explain the upward trajectory, our league finishes under Ole, from 6th to 3rd to 2nd to anyone, they'll say "that's good improvement year on year".

Allow the re-build to continue and be patient.

Excellent post right here.

 

[crossy1686]

Nice to talk to some logic here. How long a rebuild should be? Do you think in this day of modern football 3-5 years as you and many others see Ole needs to challenge for the league is something normal for a clb of our size? where are the guarantees? assessment during the process? If after 5 years of waisted time and money he fails, who will be held accountable? him, no he will already had been collecting 7m per year and by the end of this "rebuild" he will have collected gigantic fortune by selling us the fans nothing but words for the future. Who else should be held accountable? Ed? never going to happen in a million year. That is why gigantic clubs like Munich, Madrid, etc give short time for managers to prove themselves by winning big trophies ( in Spain and Germany the league is not the bar but the CL is). We are a big club like these clubs and we should give managers shorter time taking into consideration they spend a large sum compared to other clubs in the league and the rest of europre.

About the sacking, I was clear, if he showed signs of a fight for the title (not necessarily win it) then I know we are making progress. Otherwise the tools you measure progress with is not convincing to me. The position in the league (if not top of the league) is relative, because it does not show you how good you are in comparison with yourself the season before. To know if you are progressing a title challenge can be a measurement tool because you know you are few points behind from winning the league which can be corrected the season after.

I agree with most of what you're saying here to be honest but I have just a few points.

I think time needed is relative for the size of the job at hand. We were in such a mess when Jose was sacked that I'm honestly surprised we are where we are now, I wrote off 5 years and another 2 managers before we found ourselves in the top 2 again. I would suggest we were in a similar position to Liverpool when Klopp took over, or Tottenham when Pochettino took over. Big clubs, bad vibes, thin squads, decent starting 11, nothing beyond that. It took those managers a good 5 years and small steps forward to fix the issues within the club and change a mentality. Arguably, we should be doing it faster because we have more funds than both of them, but recruitment is absolutely key to getting us back fighting fit again.

As for club of our size, this is where we need to be careful. AC Milan fell into this trap "we're too big to fail", look at them now. It can happen and it will happen if we're too trigger happy and don't respect the process of rebuild. On top of that, our rivals have taken full advantage of our fall from grace which makes it harder for us to reclaim the perch. Why would you join United if Liverpool or City were offering the same deal for example? Of course United are still a big draw but we're only a couple more years away from being the AC Milan of England.

It's unfair to compare us to Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern etc. They have had a different structure from the top down for 20 years. We've been relying on Fergie for everything for that time. They have all the structure in place for a manager to succeed, and if he doesn't then it's because he isn't good enough, simple as that. We're asking managers to come in and run the club, sign players who fit the club and win games. It's a big ask, when all Nagelsmann is asked to do is be the "head coach" of Leipzig for example. Train players, turn up on match days, that's his job description. This is also why I think he'd fail at United but that's a different story.

I think we should continue to give Solskajer the following season as long as we keep progressing as we are, and we should also support him in the transfer market where possible. He has a good eye for the right personalities. If we find ourselves in the 5th year of his tenure and we're stagnating and the players are looking tired and they're not playing for him any more (ala Pochettino's last season) then it's time to call it a day. But do it right, speak to Solskjaer, tell him whats going on, find his replacement for the end of the season, be transparent. Don't eject him at Christmas and call up Hughes to fill in for 6 months. Have a plan.

Regardless of him staying or going, we're in a way better position than we were when he took over and sometimes you need those building blocks in place as foundations. Look at Pearson at Leicester for example, set them up brilliantly for Ranieri and Rodgers.

My only perspective for progress is looking back from the position we are now, to where we were. If your perspective for progress is looking up at what's in front of you and being annoyed that we're not there yet, then you're setting yourself up for disappointment and resentment. Take a minute to look backwards and be content that we're almost at the top of the hill, not angry that we haven't arrived yet.

 

[shaky]

That is why gigantic clubs like Munich, Madrid, etc give short time for managers to prove themselves by winning big trophies ( in Spain and Germany the league is not the bar but the CL is). We are a big club like these clubs and we should give managers shorter time taking into consideration they spend a large sum compared to other clubs in the league and the rest of europre.

When teams like Madrid, Bayern etc are replacing their managers, they are doing so because they maybe finished 2nd or 3rd instead of 1st, in leagues they usually dominate, despite having fully built world-class squads and pre-season expectations of winning the title, no exceptions. Nobody in the world could take a team from the absolute state we were in after Mourinho left and overturn the gap on the likes of City in a relatively short period of time, unless we threw literally a billion pounds at the problem.

 

[Mickson]

OlE dOeSnT mAkE sUbS.

The Walker sub was a defensive sub as well because he was getting bullied by Shaw on that side.

No, he used that so he could have a traditional fullback who can get to the byline and cross, which actually worked to an extent. United overloaded in the middle with their wide forwards and made McFred and the fullbacks handle De Bruyne/Sterling/Gundogan/Mahrez, often leaving our fullback exposed to their winger. Cancelo is more an inverted fullback who looks to play short passes into the middle. Also, if you are top of the league by ease, and have won everything there is to win, then he is surely forgiven. Pep wasn't good though and I'm sure he is being criticized at City forum for it.

 

[Mickson]

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If his attention to detail is so high, why are United so bad at details (like defending set pieces)? I have no doubt that Ole is thinking a lot and trying to do a lot, but it's generally very little that shows. He's generally good in the big games though, as he has shown time and time again.

 

[Stacks]

If his attention to detail is so high, why are United so bad at details (like defending set pieces)? I have no doubt that Ole is thinking a lot and trying to do a lot, but it's generally very little that shows. He's generally good in the big games though, as he has shown time and time again.

A few matches against teams in the bottom half of the table and it'll go back the other way. Its nice to beat a "big 6 rival" though, whatever that means

 

[anant]

Nice to talk to some logic here. How long a rebuild should be? Do you think in this day of modern football 3-5 years as you and many others see Ole needs to challenge for the league is something normal for a clb of our size? where are the guarantees? assessment during the process? If after 5 years of waisted time and money he fails, who will be held accountable? him, no he will already had been collecting 7m per year and by the end of this "rebuild" he will have collected gigantic fortune by selling us the fans nothing but words for the future. Who else should be held accountable? Ed? never going to happen in a million year. That is why gigantic clubs like Munich, Madrid, etc give short time for managers to prove themselves by winning big trophies ( in Spain and Germany the league is not the bar but the CL is). We are a big club like these clubs and we should give managers shorter time taking into consideration they spend a large sum compared to other clubs in the league and the rest of europre.

About the sacking, I was clear, if he showed signs of a fight for the title (not necessarily win it) then I know we are making progress. Otherwise the tools you measure progress with is not convincing to me. The position in the league (if not top of the league) is relative, because it does not show you how good you are in comparison with yourself the season before. To know if you are progressing a title challenge can be a measurement tool because you know you are few points behind from winning the league which can be corrected the season after.

A rebuild does take 3-4 years depending on the scale of rebuild required. Most teams buy 3-4 players every summer, of which 1 is a youngster/squad player/punts and 2-3 are starters. So, a rebuild especially when you're moving from Mou to Ole will take this long.

As far as guarantees go, are we getting better? heading in the right direction? The answer is yes, so stick with him. If you stop seeing progress, sack the manager. We did the same with LVG and Mou, so I don't see the issue here. And as far as comparing with RM and Bayern is concerned, RM took incredibly long to get the rebuild right. Bayern have a DoF and they manage to sign class players for cheap, so there's that.

 

[Olecurls99]

Love them and think our manager is doing great to build a real team spirit but the idea that we have a similar calibre squad to City is laughable.

Cancelo is an amazing footballer.
Dias is the best centre half in the league.
Stones on this year's form is rivaling him.
Rodri and Gundogan are obviously a step ahead of Fred and Mctominay.
Mahrez is clearly a more all round player than James or Greenwood at the moment.

These are indisputable and their backups like Silva, Aguero, Walker, Laporte (the list is too big) just reinforce the gap.

It also shows up all this twaddle about Pep being some sort of wizard like coach. He's a glorified cheerleader. Always has been

 

[Ludens the Red]

How about buying him the players he wants without compromise like they did with LvG and Jose? Or how about buying them without sales like we did in the case of Telles (Smalling) and Maguire (Lukaku).

LvG and Jose spent the best part of £750m between them in 4 seasons, and in the case of the latter, barely sold anyone in the process. Ole is currently way below even half of that figure (over £150m below that figure in fact), and has sold/let go of over £100m in assets in the process. It really isn't the same.

Under Mourinho the following players left the club for significant fees...
Daley Blind
Memphis Depay
Morgan Schneiderlin
Adnan Januzaj

Going by purely transfer fees the difference between players sold under Jose to Ole is between 15-20 million so basically Daley Blind .

Not sure where you plucked the 750 fees that apparently Jose and LVG spent from.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Love them and think our manager is doing great to build a real team spirit but the idea that we have a similar calibre squad to City is laughable.

Cancelo is an amazing footballer.
Dias is the best centre half in the league.
Stones on this year's form is rivaling him.
Rodri and Gundogan are obviously a step ahead of Fred and Mctominay.
Mahrez is clearly a more all round player than James or Greenwood at the moment.

These are indisputable and their backups like Silva, Aguero, Walker, Laporte (the list is too big) just reinforce the gap.

It also shows up all this twaddle about Pep being some sort of wizard like coach. He's a glorified cheerleader. Always has been

Get a room, with the City squad, you’re fawning.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

His most expensive player is 65m. Many of his players are not even above 20m like Torres and Gundugan. He buys as much as we do. Nobody forced Ole to spend 80m on Maguire (I like Maguire) while Dias was available for ½ that price. I think Pep would do few changes to this united squad in and the second season he would be a champion.

If Ole only spends 65m on one centre back instead of 80m, what is that other 15m going to do anything? Football is played as a team not individual meaning if Ole is offered 2 choices which spend 500m on whole defense but only allowed to spend maximum 65m per individual or 135m on whole defense but allowed to spend 80m on just one of them. I'm sure he would rather choose the first one because it's clear much better and Pep was given a much better support while we can't provide Ole 500m.

Pep needed to spend more than 500m in his first two seasons just to win his first ever PL title and that was when he already had Kompany, Sterling, Aguero, Silva, KDB & Fernandinho, those are already top top players and some in their prime age proven. Those 6 easily starting in our current squad now, this squad has more works to do than the squad that Pep inherited.

 

[el3mel]

You want a civilised conversation whilst saying I practice my long-winded arguments in a mirror. Hypocrite warning....

So you're not a spoilt fan, but you expect us to be top of the league, despite City's squad containing literally 2-3 world class players in every position? Come on mate.... Our lack of quality squad depth is the reason why we've fallen off. It's unsustainable to keep up with them for 38 games. If Greenwood looks off it, we have Dan James. If Dan James doesn't play well, we have nobody else, just academy players. City have 4 world class players they can and do happily rotate in that position.

You keep saying some of the points lost are ridiculous, but some of the points gained, are brilliant. This is the definition of how a league season works, with a table. We finish in a position based on our average performance all season. You can't just highlight 5 games in the season and sit there saying "its ridiculous we lost the points". Is it? We lose severe quality when we rotate more than 3 players, we're mid re-build and our squad will get better. This is why I expect us to be top 4 material and not title challenger material. But you? You expect us to be joint on points with City. It's ridiculous expectations after they've spent over a billion under the same manager on the same vision in order to have the best squad in England. Thats why when Mason comes out, Dan James comes in and not Mahrez, for example.

Explain the mathematics behind squad building to anyone, and they'll say "based on the fact City have spent considerably more under the same manager and under the same vision, they should be comfortably clear at the top of the league".

Explain the upward trajectory, our league finishes under Ole, from 6th to 3rd to 2nd to anyone, they'll say "that's good improvement year on year".

Allow the re-build to continue and be patient.

Pretty sure I throw the long winded argument dig at you after you threw bollocks like "spoilt fan", "don't hope we lose so you can throw your toxic dross here" and all this nonsense of phrases you're memorizing and repeating instead of actually respecting someone is having a different opinion than you. Don't ride the moral high ground because you are the one who started and I talked to you in the same manner you seem to like. I only see one hypocrite here, one who wants to dish it out but can't take it.

No one has said we are expecting to be top of the league, you're now inventing things up. I said that if we win the games that we should have won we would have been at least 5 points away from City with a derby game coming on, which we now won and could have been 2 points only away from them instead of 11 points, but what happened us once we managed to climb to the top of the table we collapsed mentally and kept on losing points against trash teams till the difference reached 14 points before the derby, and now winning it has only reduced the gap to 11 instead of possibly 2-3 points as it should have been.

There's no denying we did really well after the CL exit and managed to make a great comeback to the top of the table after it and I gave the credit for Ole back then, but the way we responded after going top was terrible and here you came and say it's United's responsibility that the gap reached 14 points before the derby. Face palm.. if you lose 5 points to the two teams at the bottom of the league what are you expecting ? How are the Sheffield, WBA, Palace and Everton games aren't United's responsibility ? We're not expected to win 38 games a season but we you can't lose points in some of these games. You can't lose 4 points to Crystal Palace in one season. We only won 3 in 10 games before the Derby yesterday. To say it's not United's responsibility is ridiculous. So what, we should get credit for the wins but any loss is no problem ?

Continuously implying that we have absolutely no chance in challenging or even winning the league just because one team has better squad is a defeatist mentality that I'll hate to have, sorry. You can enjoy such mentality approaching the season thinking we have no chance because City are gods. I'll never think this way about United and hopefully this mentality of yours isn't spreading inside the club as well.

Finally I haven't said Ole should leave after this season, because I expect us to finish 2nd and win EL so he should definitely get a 3rd season. What I said is we shouldn't rush and throw a new contract at him this summer. Till we see if we'll challenge for the league next season or not then decide on his season. I'm just replying on your ridiculous point about United's being not responsible for losing a chance to challenge for the title.

It's really funny how toxicity here = talking negatively about the manager but meanwhile you're a great fan if you shit all over the Glazers, Woodward and all our players and think everyone isn't good enough except the manager.

 

[Giggsyking]

I agree with most of what you're saying here to be honest but I have just a few points.

I think time needed is relative for the size of the job at hand. We were in such a mess when Jose was sacked that I'm honestly surprised we are where we are now, I wrote off 5 years and another 2 managers before we found ourselves in the top 2 again. I would suggest we were in a similar position to Liverpool when Klopp took over, or Tottenham when Pochettino took over. Big clubs, bad vibes, thin squads, decent starting 11, nothing beyond that. It took those managers a good 5 years and small steps forward to fix the issues within the club and change a mentality. Arguably, we should be doing it faster because we have more funds than both of them, but recruitment is absolutely key to getting us back fighting fit again.

As for club of our size, this is where we need to be careful. AC Milan fell into this trap "we're too big to fail", look at them now. It can happen and it will happen if we're too trigger happy and don't respect the process of rebuild. On top of that, our rivals have taken full advantage of our fall from grace which makes it harder for us to reclaim the perch. Why would you join United if Liverpool or City were offering the same deal for example? Of course United are still a big draw but we're only a couple more years away from being the AC Milan of England.

It's unfair to compare us to Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern etc. They have had a different structure from the top down for 20 years. We've been relying on Fergie for everything for that time. They have all the structure in place for a manager to succeed, and if he doesn't then it's because he isn't good enough, simple as that. We're asking managers to come in and run the club, sign players who fit the club and win games. It's a big ask, when all Nagelsmann is asked to do is be the "head coach" of Leipzig for example. Train players, turn up on match days, that's his job description. This is also why I think he'd fail at United but that's a different story.

I think we should continue to give Solskajer the following season as long as we keep progressing as we are, and we should also support him in the transfer market where possible. He has a good eye for the right personalities. If we find ourselves in the 5th year of his tenure and we're stagnating and the players are looking tired and they're not playing for him any more (ala Pochettino's last season) then it's time to call it a day. But do it right, speak to Solskjaer, tell him whats going on, find his replacement for the end of the season, be transparent. Don't eject him at Christmas and call up Hughes to fill in for 6 months. Have a plan.

Regardless of him staying or going, we're in a way better position than we were when he took over and sometimes you need those building blocks in place as foundations. Look at Pearson at Leicester for example, set them up brilliantly for Ranieri and Rodgers.

My only perspective for progress is looking back from the position we are now, to where we were. If your perspective for progress is looking up at what's in front of you and being annoyed that we're not there yet, then you're setting yourself up for disappointment and resentment. Take a minute to look backwards and be content that we're almost at the top of the hill, not angry that we haven't arrived yet.

Nice post and I respect your point of view. I Know it took Pochettino and Klopp more than 3 years to show real progress and in the case of Klopp to reach the CL final, but I think we had the recourses to do it in a shorter period of time. Sure there is a possibility we can go the AC Milan way, but we have a better club structure that would be very difficult to go this way.

Anyhow I made peace with him staying another season, cause I know no matter what happens for the rest of the season he will stay the next season. The board already said they are happy with the progress he made (things not related to the football we play that we fans cant see behind the doors). But I wish that we dont hang on for a long time if it stagnates.

 

[Foxbatt]

I don't know. The Board could say a lot of things now and the end of the season. I would say whether he stays or not depends on how we end the season and also depending on it, who is available.

 

[NZT-One]

Reading redcafe in the last days triggered me to register ^^ After seeing the match yesterday, I knew a lot of triggering will happen so here we go.

Lets address a couple of arguments:

"The expectations before the season started were always Top4 - so we are overarchieving"
Well that is surely right, but right now - today, we are not before the start of the season anymore, are we? Lets say, on Matchday 12 Bruno goes down and does his ACL. Would we adjust our expectations for the season? Sure we would. Same applies (obviously not as striking as in my example) to the fact that ManCity didnt really start firing before Christmas, that Liverpool has serious injury troubles and that Chelsea would sack their manager midseason despite their multi-million transfer spree in the summer. All this effects the expectations and lets face it: United were already top of the table at one point so it isn't something unheard of.

Not even half the people would complain if we would have lost points in the difficult series of games that has started yesterday. But we did not - We didn't just miss points against some of the minor teams of the league, we missed these points by barely being able to create something of substance. Of course that can happen in football. But the issue with chance creation (high percentage chances) is a long known issue and we seem unable to do anything about it. This is something that should at least ring a few bells. Of course that's nothing somebody should be sacked about, no discussion about that from my point of view. But to just dismiss that, feels strangely disingenuous to me

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"Ole outdid Pep again"
If this statement is based on the great result and the great performance of yesterday, well then haven't we been outdone by Sheffield United, Westbrom and Crystal Palace? Maybe even more so because the difference in squad strength between City and us and between us and one of the three teams is not the same...What about that?
If it is based on the supposedly great tactics yesterday, well obviously credit where credit is due, but keeping a compact shape and try to counter with numbers isn't really a new thing. It is a pretty basic thing as seen in its frequent deployment by a multitude of teams in a multitude of leagues. That of course doesn't take something away from the glamour of the moment, it is an absolutely valid tactic and we executed it brilliantly. But lets not pretend, it has been a revelation when it hasnt been. Had Pep set his team up as reserved as he did in the last two fixtures, it might have been a different game but he didnt (and from what was to be read in the Bluemoon thread, he has been heavily criticised for it) so he, Pep, kind of did a big part of the "outdoing of Pep"-job himself.

Why am I not celebrating after a great victory against a fierce rival? I do - I am very happy about what we have done yesterday. But I see no point in getting carried away when it manifests in drawing wrong conclusions. Some of you might find it weird to not celebrate a great performance, well I find it weird that after bad games there seems to be some sort of collective demonisation of every critique as soon as it is directed at the manager.
Seems like there are obviously two different opinions and approaches, one not even a bit more worthless than the other. So lets act like that and try to leave the smugness anywhere else.

------------------------------------------------------
"Our players need to be upgraded, with these players we cannot compete"
I think this applies to almost every team in the world. It is always possible to upgrade some players, to integrate the latest shiny thing that has taken this years world by storm. But that is only sustainable to a certain extent (this extent varies from club to club in connection to economic situation obviously) which is why one job of the manager team is to come up with a way of playing successful football with the players at hand. Of course that won't be able to solve all issues perfectly. But maybe we are surprised how much it would help.

Nobody will argue that Manchester United isn't due some improvements but to put all the eggs in that particular basket is not very reasonable. Getting new players in is not the only way to improve a team. Our team might not be capable of challenging Liverpool and City when they execute a similar run as the last years with 90+ points. To be honest, as most here, I think we overachieved getting to the top of the table this year. But the results or the extent of "challenging" is not the criticism at hand here most of the time. We cannot come to the conclusion that it needs us to add Sancho and Haaland to create some chances against Crystal Palace. Or that there is no other way to shore up our defense than to add a 70mio defender to avoid going behind against Sheffield. These teams are where they are in the table because most teams find ways to hurt them. Not just because the super teams found a way. Of course we don't want to overemphasize a single game or a single bad result. I have not even the slightest issue with losing to these teams. But losing and drawing while creating next to nothing has to ring a few bells. It has to.

We have a coaching team available, we have a transfer team available. Lets take both of those teams and send them to a mission: one looks for additions to the squad, the other tries to find some ways to
- reliably creating chances against pressing teams,
- reliably creating chances against deep lying teams,
- find ways to make better use of our set pieces
- and while we are at it, please also find a way to defend them when they are against us.

We don't have to choose - either getting new players or getting more out of the existing. Especially knowing that we have to operate more cautiously than some of our rivals, it becomes even more urgent to find ways to get the most out of each available player. Because transfers doesn't always work out and we again should spread the risk of throwing a season just because of that.
If we put all our hope into transfers we are setting us up to getting shattered once again. And, and that's my personal opinion, the explanations for the coming failures will then look exactly like the ones we are seeing now.


Having said all that, I think this thread and the fanbase would benefit from acting a bit less frantic and emotional. Of course over-the-top slagging off the manager is not warranted, but OTT praise creates the same trigger for some people as the critique does for others. There are valid reasons to be encouraged and there are also some things to be worried about regarding our club. The extend varies from person to person and maybe from match to match but as soon as we are able to stay on the matter, this whole back-and-forth-thingy will cool down.

It was ironic seeing somebody here being criticized for calling the manager a clown, because it is an unwarranted personal remark and then to read remarks like "if you not see it, maybe football isnt for you" or "how somebody cannot get that is beyond me". I mean that is literally even more personal. And as long as this sort of school kid bashing is happening, this thread will constantly be loaded with the stuff over and over again because with good results and performances, the "Ole In" people use their chance to belittle their "opponents" and as soon as results turn, the "Ole out" people feel the need to get back at them.


(for the protocol: based on my statements some of you will probably put me in the "Ole out" drawer. But I am very happy with him and his job and I want him to stay. But I also want the club to be aware of the developments in the manager market. There are not a lot of people that are obvious and clear improvements but if one of them shows potential availability (be it next year or the year after), we should assess Ole as rational as possible, seeing all the things he achieved and all the things he didn't.

I know United fans crave for our edition of a Pep or Zidane story, or even a Conte. But these are very rare and we are too big of a club to let sentimentality dictate things. To be honest, based on all we know about Ole, he would agree with that statement. Regarding a new contract, I wouldn't rush but I also would I try to provide some stability)

 

[Giggsyking]

Reading redcafe in the last days triggered me to register ^^ After seeing the match yesterday, I knew a lot of triggering will happen so here we go.

Lets address a couple of arguments:

"The expectations before the season started were always Top4 - so we are overarchieving"
Well that is surely right, but right now - today, we are not before the start of the season anymore, are we? Lets say on matchday 12 Bruno goes down and does his ACL. Would we adjust our expectations for the season? Sure we would. Same applies (obviously not as striking as in my example) to the fact that ManCity didnt really start firing before Christmas, that Liverpool has serious injury troubles and that Chelsea would sack their manager midseason despite their multi-million transfer spree in the summer. All this effects the expectations and lets face it: United were already top of the table at one point so it isn't something unheard of. Not even half the people would complain if we would have lost points in the difficult series of games that has started yesterday. But we did not - We didn't just miss points against some of the minor teams of the league, we missed these points by barely being able to create something of substance. Of course that can happen in football. But the issue with chance creation (high percentage chances) is a long known issue and we seem unable to do anything about it. This is something that should at least ring a few bells. Of course thats nothing somebody should be sacked about, no discussion about that from my point of view. But to just dismiss that, feels strangely disingenuous to me

"Ole outdid Pep again"
If this statement is based on the great result and the great performance of yesterday, well than haven't we been outdone by Sheffield United, Westbrom and Crystal Palace? Maybe even more so because the difference in squad strength betweens City and us and between us and one of the three teams is not the same...What about that?
If it is based on the supposedly great tactics yesterday, well obviously credit where credit is due, but keeping a compact shape and try to counter with numbers isn't really a new thing. It is a pretty basic thing as seen in its frequent deployment by a multitude of teams in a multitude of leages. That of course doesnt take something away from the glamour of the moment, it is an absolutely valid tactic and we executed it brilliantly. But lets not pretend, it has been a relevation when it hasnt been. Had Pep set his team up as reserved as he did in the last two fixtures, it might have been a different game but he didnt (and from what was to be read in the Bluemoon thread, he has been heavily criticised for it) so he, Pep, kind of did a big part of the "outdoing of Pep"-job himself. Why am I not celebrating after a great victory against a fierce rival? I do - I am very happy about what we have done yesterday. But I see no point in getting carried away when it manifests in drawing wrong conclusions. Some of you might find it weird to not celebrate a great performance, well I find it weird that after bad games there seems to be some sort of collective demonization of every critique as soon as it directed at the manager.
Seems like there are obviously two different opinions and approaches, one not even a bit more worthless than the other. So lets act like that and try to leave the smugness anywhere else.

"Our players need to be upgraded, with these players we cannot compete"
I think this applies to almost every team in the world. It is always possible to upgrade some players, to integrate the latest shiny thing that has taken this years world by storm. But that is only sustainable to a certain extent (this extent varies from club to club in connection to economic situation obviously) which is why one job of the manager team is to come up with a way of playing successful football with the players at hand. Of course that wont be able to solve all issues perfectly. But maybe we are surprised how much it would help.
Nobody will argue that Manchester United isn't due some improvements but to put all the eggs in that particular basket is not very reasonable. Getting new players in is not the only way to improve a team. Our team might not be capable of challenging Liverpool and City when they execute a similar run as the last years with 90+ points. To be honest, as most here, I think we overachieved getting to the top of the table this year. But the results or the extent of "challenging" is not the criticism at hand here most of the time. We cannot come to the conclusion that it needs us to add Sancho and Haaland to create some chances against Crystal Palace. Or that there is no other way to shore up our defence than to add a 70mio defender to avoid going behind against Sheffield. These teams are where they are in the table because most teams find ways to hurt them. Not just because the super teams found a way. Of course we don't want to overemphasize a single game or a single bad result. I have not even the slightest issue with losing to these teams. But losing and drawing while creating next to nothing has to ring a few bells. It has to.

We have a coaching team available, we have a transfer team available. Lets take both of those teams and send them to a mission: one looks for additions to the squad, the other tries to find some ways to
- reliably creating chances against pressing teams,
- against deep lying teams,
- find ways to make better use of our set pieces
- and while we are at it, please also find a way to defend them when they are against us.

We don't have to choose - either getting new players or getting more out of the existing. Especially knowing that we have to operate more cautiously than some of our rivals, it becomes even more urgent to find ways to get more out of a player. Because transfers doesn't always work out and we again should spread the risk of throwing a season just because of that.
If we put all our hope into transfers we are setting us up to getting shattered once again. And, and thats my personal opinion, the explanations for the coming failures will then look exactly like the ones we are seeing now.


Having said all that, I think this thread and the fanbase would benefit from acting a bit less frantic and emotional. Of course over-the-top slagging off the manager is not warranted, but OTT praise creates the same trigger for some people as the critique does for others. There are valid reasons to be encouraged and there are also some things to be worried about regarding our club. The extend varies from person to person and maybe from match to match but as soon as we are able to stay on the matter, this whole back-and-forth-thingy will cool down. It was ironic seeing somebody here being criticised for calling the manager a clown, because it is an unwarranted personal remark and then to read remarks like "if you not see it, maybe football isnt for you" or "how somebody cannot get that is beyond me". I mean that is literally even more personal. And as long as this sort of school kid bashing is happening, this thread will constantly be loaded with the stuff over and over again because with good results and performances, the "Ole In" people use their chance to belittle their "opponents" and as soon as results turn, the "Ole out" People feeld the need to get back at them.


(for the protocol: based on my statements some of you will probably put me in the "Ole out" drawer. But I am very happy with him and his job and I want him to stay. But I also want the club to be aware of the developments in the manager market. There are not a lot of people that are obvious and clear improvements but if one of them shows potential availability (be it next year or the year after), we should assess Ole as rational as possible, seeing all the things he achieved and all the things he didnt. I know United fans crave for our edition of a Pep or Zidane story, or even a Conte. But these are very rare and we are too big of a club to let sentimentality dictate certain things. To be honest, based on all we know about Ole, he would agree with that statement. Regarding a new contract, I wouldnt rush but I also would I try to provide some stability)

Good post.
And the bolded part, thumbs up.

 

[united for life]

Yea, I was not talking about you there but more about people like @Nou_Camp99 who literally confirmed what I said just a post below yours

phew. At least I’m not guilty

 

[united for life]

I understand what you are saying. This was a very good result and he got everything right. The players played well too
But there is no point in beating Pep every match if we can't beat Fat Sam and Sean Dyche and Roy and Moyes.

we’ll get there hopefully. We’re second in the league. I’m not happy with not being first, but given the circumstances, must be doing something right for us to be where we are

 

[Halftrack]

Shaw maybe nudges Zinchenko

Shaw is clearly the better of the two, there's no "maybe" about it.

 

[Marwood]

There can’t be a single Man United fan that truly believes a squad that had just finished second with 81 points was worse than a squad that had just finished 6th with 69 points.

The squad LVG left had a completely washed up Rooney, a completely washed up Schweinsteiger, Morgan feck me he’s shite Schneiderlin, Memphis Depay, Fellaini etc. It was truly horrific.

As for Ole’s win-rate it’s looking good now this season after that shock win, if this sends us on to a good end of the season it’s a fantastic improvement from last.

Yeah you could knock it back and forwards as to who inherited the worst squad. I'd take your washed up Rooney and raise you a washed up Sanchez. They both inherited Fellaini, Ole's had a lesser version of De Gea, Schneiderlin/Pereira etc etc.

But Ole didn't take over a 2nd place team, we were 6th, as mentioned 11 points from 4th, with it getting worse and worse. When you add the generally terrible atmosphere he inherited I don't think it's outlandish to say he had the biggest job on his hands post Fergie.

 

[Olecurls99]

Shaw is clearly the better of the two, there's no "maybe" about it.

I rate Shaw very highly and always have but Zinchenko is a fantastic left full. Good on the ball and very quick.

 

[romufc]

No, he used that so he could have a traditional fullback who can get to the byline and cross, which actually worked to an extent. United overloaded in the middle with their wide forwards and made McFred and the fullbacks handle De Bruyne/Sterling/Gundogan/Mahrez, often leaving our fullback exposed to their winger. Cancelo is more an inverted fullback who looks to play short passes into the middle. Also, if you are top of the league by ease, and have won everything there is to win, then he is surely forgiven. Pep wasn't good though and I'm sure he is being criticized at City forum for it.

I am not having a go at Pep or City? I am more having a go at fans who think by not making a sub the manager is clueless.

The same fans who call Ole clueless for not making early sub will wet thier pants over Pep.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Yeah you could knock it back and forwards as to who inherited the worst squad. I'd take your washed up Rooney and raise you a washed up Sanchez.

But what about the washed up Schweiny and the utterly awful Schneiderlin?
I agree that Ole inherited a worse atmosphere but that also enabled him to get a terrific bounce at the joy of Mourinho being fecked off, you could argue that got him the job.
And come on man, the LVG squad was clearly worse ffs. Even at their very peak they were capable of just touching 70 pts.

 

[Jonno]

Pretty sure I throw the long winded argument dig at you after you threw bollocks like "spoilt fan", "don't hope we lose so you can throw your toxic dross here" and all this nonsense of phrases you're memorizing and repeating instead of actually respecting someone is having a different opinion than you. Don't ride the moral high ground because you are the one who started and I talked to you in the same manner you seem to like. I only see one hypocrite here, one who wants to dish it out but can't take it.

No one has said we are expecting to be top of the league, you're now inventing things up. I said that if we win the games that we should have won we would have been at least 5 points away from City with a derby game coming on, which we now won and could have been 2 points only away from them instead of 11 points, but what happened us once we managed to climb to the top of the table we collapsed mentally and kept on losing points against trash teams till the difference reached 14 points before the derby, and now winning it has only reduced the gap to 11 instead of possibly 2-3 points as it should have been.

There's no denying we did really well after the CL exit and managed to make a great comeback to the top of the table after it and I gave the credit for Ole back then, but the way we responded after going top was terrible and here you came and say it's United's responsibility that the gap reached 14 points before the derby. Face palm.. if you lose 5 points to the two teams at the bottom of the league what are you expecting ? How are the Sheffield, WBA, Palace and Everton games aren't United's responsibility ? We're not expected to win 38 games a season but we you can't lose points in some of these games. You can't lose 4 points to Crystal Palace in one season. We only won 3 in 10 games before the Derby yesterday. To say it's not United's responsibility is ridiculous. So what, we should get credit for the wins but any loss is no problem ?

Continuously implying that we have absolutely no chance in challenging or even winning the league just because one team has better squad is a defeatist mentality that I'll hate to have, sorry. You can enjoy such mentality approaching the season thinking we have no chance because City are gods. I'll never think this way about United and hopefully this mentality of yours isn't spreading inside the club as well.

Finally I haven't said Ole should leave after this season, because I expect us to finish 2nd and win EL so he should definitely get a 3rd season. What I said is we shouldn't rush and throw a new contract at him this summer. Till we see if we'll challenge for the league next season or not then decide on his season. I'm just replying on your ridiculous point about United's being not responsible for losing a chance to challenge for the title.

It's really funny how toxicity here = talking negatively about the manager but meanwhile you're a great fan if you shit all over the Glazers, Woodward and all our players and think everyone isn't good enough except the manager.

I do feel that after 10-20 quoted replies of debate, the initial points can get lost. I do completely agree with you, in that we shouldn't and wouldn't be offering him a new contract just yet, we as a club hold all the cards, Ole has to earn his next contract.

I'll remind you exactly why we started debating. You claimed in the Ole performance thread that we shouldn't have "thrown the league title race away". I claimed that we were never really in a title race, and that we only got to the top of the tree on false ground due to an excellent period of form but our true worth and value is probably 2nd-4th this season. I then went on to say that until we consistently invest in every position like City have done for the past 6+ years for Pep, we can't keep up with them for 38 games. It's unfair to micro-analyse 4-5 bad results, which I hate having to sit through just as much as you, whilst discounting completely many very good performances in order to prove your points about a title race. Just about every team in the PL has had a shocker or two against a bottom 6 club this season, not just us.

Thats pretty much it in a nutshell. Happy to disagree.

 

[Skåre Willoch]

Under Mourinho the following players left the club for significant fees...
Daley Blind
Memphis Depay
Morgan Schneiderlin
Adnan Januzaj

Going by purely transfer fees the difference between players sold under Jose to Ole is between 15-20 million so basically Daley Blind .

Not sure where you plucked the 750 fees that apparently Jose and LVG spent from.

Significant fees?

Daley Blind - £13,7m
Memphis Depay - £13,7m
Morgan Schneiderlin - £19,7m
Adnan Januzaj - £7,3m

We did get a decent fee for Schneiderlin, considering he was borderline useless for us, but I think it's a stretch to say these players left for significant fees.


And you're right, we José and LVG didn't spend 750m, they "only" spent 700m. I still think @rotherham_red has a valid point.

 

[Ludens the Red]

Significant fees?

Daley Blind - £13,7m
Memphis Depay - £13,7m
Morgan Schneiderlin - £19,7m
Adnan Januzaj - £7,3m

We did get a decent fee for Schneiderlin, considering he was borderline useless for us, but I think it's a stretch to say these players left for significant fees.


And you're right, we José and LVG didn't spend 750m, they "only" spent 700m. I still think @rotherham_red has a valid point.

The problem here is you’ve knocked off several million from both the Depay and Januzaj deals. Januzaj is understandable as the reported fee was different to the actually sold fee. He went for 17 million according to our accounts. Depay went for 16 + add ons which were met so it totalled 22 million.
Lukaku is actually the only player we sold under Ole who went for more money than Blind (the lowest fee received during Mourinho’s tenure)
He mentioned Smalling who went for 12 million. Is that not a substantial fee?

I don’t think he has a valid point, he tries to make points but they’re never backed up by the actual facts and statistics.
This is the problem with this particular take on the Mourinho/Ole narrative. The evidence isn’t there to support it so you’re left with either making up figures and stats or flat out denying they exist when confronted with the actual ones.

 

[Skåre Willoch]

The problem here is you’ve knocked off several million from both the Depay and Januzaj deals. Januzaj is understandable as the reported fee was different to the actually sold fee. He went for 17 million according to our accounts. Depay went for 16 + add ons which were met so it totalled 22 million.
Lukaku is actually the only player we sold under Ole who went for more money than Blind (the lowest fee received during Mourinho’s tenure)
He mentioned Smalling who went for 12 million. Is that not a substantial fee?

I don’t think he has a valid point, he tries to make points but they’re never backed up by the actual facts and statistics.
This is the problem with this particular take on the Mourinho/Ole narrative. The evidence isn’t there to support it so you’re left with either making up figures and stats or flat out denying they exist when confronted with the actual ones.

I haven't knocked off anything. I'm using transfermarkt as a source (and converted euro to pounds), as they're usually quite reliable fee-wise.
You might have different sources, but I don't really know if they're more or less reliable than transfermarkt.

In the list you provided, you did not mention Smalling, so I didn't really include other players than the ones you specifically mentioned. And, I don't think 12 mill is a substantial fee for Chris Smalling at all. I actually think it's quite a low fee.
We could've got more from basically any PL club (bar the big guns), but the problem was that Smalling wasn't interested in going anywhere else than back to Rome, if I remember correctly.

EDIT:
Also, regarding your rude/condescending statement of us "making up figures and stats or flat out denying they exist when confronted with the actual ones.".
Here is my source. Call it facts. Call it evidence. Or flat out deny they exist yourself.

You haven't really provided any proper sources or anywhere for us to look up the facts you claim are more correct than ours yourself, have you? You turn rude when we drop numbers on you without sources. Where are your sources when doing the exact same thing? Our words are false, but at the same time we just have to take your words as truth?

 

[rotherham_red]

The problem here is you’ve knocked off several million from both the Depay and Januzaj deals. Januzaj is understandable as the reported fee was different to the actually sold fee. He went for 17 million according to our accounts. Depay went for 16 + add ons which were met so it totalled 22 million.
Lukaku is actually the only player we sold under Ole who went for more money than Blind (the lowest fee received during Mourinho’s tenure)
He mentioned Smalling who went for 12 million. Is that not a substantial fee?

I don’t think he has a valid point, he tries to make points but they’re never backed up by the actual facts and statistics.
This is the problem with this particular take on the Mourinho/Ole narrative. The evidence isn’t there to support it so you’re left with either making up figures and stats or flat out denying they exist when confronted with the actual ones.

Leroy, this is a fans forum, not the fecking Hague - I was out by 50m from a figure I got from memory recall, mea culpa. Yet the overall point remains.

Also, please show me where we got 17m for Januzaj, cos that wasn't the amount reported at the time (9m-12m was the range I remembered). The fact that Depay and Schneiderlin are the only other players you can think of for first team outgoings over 2+ years of Jose being in charge says it all. Ole doubled that figure in his first summer alone.

I'm not sure why you're arguing about this again, because the facts are there. LvG sold a lot (hackhandedly, might I add) and brought a lot in, in return. Jose brought more in than he sold, and Ole has let a lot go but not really had the opportunity to bring as many in.

 

[Tom Cato]

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[Marwood]

But what about the washed up Schweiny and the utterly awful Schneiderlin?
I agree that Ole inherited a worse atmosphere but that also enabled him to get a terrific bounce at the joy of Mourinho being fecked off, you could argue that got him the job.
And come on man, the LVG squad was clearly worse ffs. Even at their very peak they were capable of just touching 70 pts.

We had 26 points after 17 games when Ole took over. So on course for a total of about 58 points. Obviously we don't know for sure how the season would have ended under Mourinho but it didn't look like it was getting better.

I'd agree that LvG was worse in the transfer market, I hold him as chief culprit for the mess we were in.

But the compound effeft of LvG's complete mess,then Mourinho's shortcomings, meant Ole really was starting from a bad place.

I disagree it was some kind of advantage for him to take over a squad in such a mess.

We could go through the two sqauds, Schneiderlin vs Pereira, washed up Schweinsteiger vs washed up Valencia, but that seems a bit laborious.

My original point was that in highlighting Ole's win rate so far, what did anybody really expect it to be given how bad a state we were in on his appointment?

We're now at the stage where it needs to pick up though. After this coming summer I think that will have been enough time and money to really get us going again.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

We had 26 points after 17 games when Ole took over. So on course for a total of about 58 points. Obviously we don't know for sure how the season would have ended under Mourinho but it didn't look like it was getting better.

Yes but the same squad had just finished the previous season with 81 points a few months earlier, and the very same squad +Fred finished that season with 66 points and gave Ole a first part season win percentage of 57%. 12 wins from 21 games.

If our slump had continued and we were taking that 57% and turning it into 49% over the course of two full seasons, that would be horrific and not something you can excuse because the squad was in a bad state.

My original point was that in highlighting Ole's win rate so far, what did anybody really expect it to be given how bad a state we were in on his appointment?

What did I really expect this season? I expect any Manchester United manager in his second full season in charge to have a league win rate a good bit over 50% if we’re going to call him “successful” or “making progress”. After the win versus City we look on course to have a 55%+ win rate for the season if this kicks us on.

There is no need to excuse crap win rates, the proof is in the pudding.

Your original point that a possible win rate of 49% after 2.5 years was to be was to be expected due to Ole taking over the worst squad since Fergie was utter nonsensical. We had a 65% win rate the previous season and despite Mourinho losing his mind and us changing managers mid-season, we actually finished 2018-19 with 50% win rate.
How you could argue that the following two seasons being at 49% would be okay and “expected” is beyond me, but thankfully Ole is gonna smash through that anyhowz and put those fears to bed so I fully expect my original point/fear to become a moot one by the end of this season, and I’m delighted about that.

 

[Marwood]

Yes but the same squad had just finished the previous season with 81 points a few months earlier, and the very same squad +Fred finished that season with 66 points and gave Ole a first part season win percentage of 57%. 12 wins from 21 games.

If our slump had continued and we were taking that 57% and turning it into 49% over the course of two full seasons, that would be horrific and not something you can excuse because the squad was in a bad state.



What did I really expect this season? I expect any Manchester United manager in his second full season in charge to have a league win rate a good bit over 50% if we’re going to call him “successful” or “making progress”. After the win versus City we look on course to have a 55%+ win rate for the season if this kicks us on.

There is no need to excuse crap win rates, the proof is in the pudding, and right now I think that win will spur was on to proving that.

Regulus you can't remove those 17 last games of Mourinho, wind the clock back and claim Ole took over a 2nd place team. He objectively didn't. It's like saying LvG took over a title winning team if we just ignore the Moyes games.

I mean you'll have watched every game of that 2nd place finish like I did. You must have wondered like me how we managed it, I still don't know. . A few experienced players, De Gea being brilliant, bits of luck. I think everyone else was rubbish as well fortunately. We were rubbish though.

Sure enough the following season the performances caught up with the results. It was no shock to me how it went the season he was sacked, you could see it coming such was the poor quality of football.

Your last point is why fans are split on Ole I think.

You believe just by being a United manager there should be a minimum win rate or league position.

I believe a manager should only be judged on what he's got available to him. It's not an excuse it's just realistic. So far Ole has got out of these players roughly what I'd expect.