Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2020/21 Discussion

bond19821982

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Watched the match again - their forwards and midfields pressed us very high - as high as our corner flag,penalty box. Klopps tactics were clear- don't let the ball reach their half through ground and let us hoof it. They dealt the high balls pretty nicely which means, none of our forwards had the ball. The only player competent on the ball was Shaw and he was double or triple pressed. Obviously they knew Scott, Fred,AWB,Lindelof, Bailly shits on the ball and will lose it if pressed.

It was very clear in first half and Ole didn't make any change until 70th minute. He should have changed to a 5 man defense with Telles at left and Matic in CM. Shaw at LCB would have created lot of space for Telles and we would have got the width as well. Also very baffling that DVB never got a chance despite he being one of our quick thinking midfielder.
 

Womp

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I think that City side only looked better because of the weakness of the league. This City side has walked all over Europe and only a fellow CL finalist is stopping them winning a quadruple.
A Utd side with Herrera, Fellaini, Mata and that back 4 wouldn't be where we are today. The league is undoubtedly more conpetitive todsy imo. Our top teams were a bit of a mess back then
You'd be thinking wrong, as the 'top teams' all had higher points that season than they do this season respectively. You're just trying to suggest the league is so much more difficult because it paints Ole in a better light, when in reality, a City team with the highest points in recorded EPL history, isn't as dominant as this City side is laughable imo. Not to add, all top 6 teams then being more dominant when compared to this season. Yes, we are performing better in Europe, but that could also be put down to the drop in quality from other major sides, mainly Juventus and the Spanish teams, who are even struggling in their domestic leagues.
 

Eddy_JukeZ

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I think that City side only looked better because of the weakness of the league. This City side has walked all over Europe and only a fellow CL finalist is stopping them winning a quadruple.
A Utd side with Herrera, Fellaini, Mata and that back 4 wouldn't be where we are today. The league is undoubtedly more conpetitive todsy imo. Our top teams were a bit of a mess back then
Why is the league better now than 2017-2018?

All the top teams then had higher point tallies than now. Liverpool probably stopped City then from winning the Champions League.

It's only a season away from 2018-2019 when Pool and City were clearly the 2 best teams in the world. Don't see how the top teams were a mess back then.
 

Womp

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Why is the league better now than 2017-2018?

All the top teams then had higher point tallies than now. Liverpool probably stopped City then from winning the Champions League.

It's only a season away from 2018-2019 when Pool and City were clearly the 2 best teams in the world. Don't see how the top teams were a mess back then.
It's to suit an agenda. Imagine genuinely thinking that a team who legitimately broke the fecking record for most points ever isn't as dominant a side who can at most manage 89 points.
 

Eddy_JukeZ

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It's to suit an agenda. Imagine genuinely thinking that a team who legitimately broke the fecking record for most points ever isn't as dominant a side who can at most manage 89 points.
I mean it's hilarious at this point.

You can't even argue it was a fluke since they managed 98 points the following season and pipped an amazing Liverpool team to the title.

I mean if it wasn't for Liverpool and Tottenham, they might have won the Champions League in 2 straight seasons. The top teams in the Prem then were a "mess" though.
 

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Even though I'm on the fence with Ole and conceded that hes done ok(ish), can't help but feel that next year we'll be struggling for 5th or 6th. The excuses have already started appearing "no backing, McFred, past it CF, Glazers fault, etc".
Next year will be make or break, enough with lame excuses. If he can't get this team to play football and challenge for the biggest trophies after 3,5 years, there is no point in insisting with.
You dont want us to sign anyone because...excuses?
 

cyberman

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I agree he wasn't good enough, the rest I don't agree. We have achieved second place this season with 70 points, that would have resulted in a 6th place finish in Jose's first year. Funnily enough, that was where Jose finished. He also finished that season with a League cup and a Europa.

The season after, we finished second with 81 points, more points than Ole has ever accumulated, against arguably the most dominant side in EPL history. That City team finished with 100 points. The season after, Liverpool and Man City once again had 98 and 97 points respectively.

This season, City has already won the league with 80 points. Don't think it's as easy to say that this is the best English teams have been, at least domestically.

So Jose in his first season, won more trophies than Ole has in over two and managed to secure more points against a more dominant City side and yet was deemed not good enough. Interesting.
You cant compare different years though. Its a lot harder today with the talent spread and ability for smaller sides to play the ball out. Back then you beat the small sides, struggled against top 6 and you qualify for top 4 with a good points total. Jose and Poch are prime examples. As soon as the bottom level improved and they had to adapt, they struggled. Those easy wins dissapeared and so did they. Poch gone, Jose trying the same approach years later and being shown up for the now easily exploitative approach it always was. Hell Liverpool were very much just plan A last season and struggled to adapt when the league shut down their FBs. Pep admitted he had to change his entire approach to win the league this season. This league figures you out very quickly.
Oles Jose sesson was last year imo. They both found a level and only 1 carried it in, improving on it even. You cant improve on sit back and hope DDG bails you out. Ole will leave a side who arent far away from being contenders under the right manager, Joses style set us back years.
In the last 2 seasons, non elite sides have barely broken 80 points. The quality has risen levels.4 different English sides reaching CL finals in 3 seasons tells the tale.
 

cyberman

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Why is the league better now than 2017-2018?

All the top teams then had higher point tallies than now. Liverpool probably stopped City then from winning the Champions League.

It's only a season away from 2018-2019 when Pool and City were clearly the 2 best teams in the world. Don't see how the top teams were a mess back then.
You see it every week now. City are clearly the best side the world at the minute and theyre only matching Joses points total after 35 games from that year. That Utd side couldnt touch this City team so I cant see what points tallies are supposed to prove. City being put out of Europe by an inferior Liverpool side isnt a great point to make when talking about how great that City side was to be honest.
 
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AshRK

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I am gutted with the result and performance but too much importance is given to the game. We had nothing to play for, while they had everything to play for. Half of the players didn't even bother to play including players like pogba and shaw who have been brilliant in recent months. These things shouldn't happen and coach has to do better but one can't start over analyzing this game and throw everything else out of window.

Let us move on and focus on winning the europa as that is the game that needs to be won.
 

Harry Harries

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He's yet to finish with points even comparable to that season under Jose though and Jose was deemed not good enough.



What does any of that have to do with the quality of what they've achieved though? Whether or not the place was toxic with Mourinho, he's still won more than Ole has in the same time, accumulating more points than Ole has too. If the argument is whether or not the players like Ole more and he's a more likeable bloke, I'd agree. I disagree that Ole has achieved more than Mourinho for us though, regardless of what people may think of him. Not yet, anyway.
Jose might have been able to squeeze an extra 5 points out (we will likely finish on 76 points - could have been more if not for insanity scheduling), but it didn't mean anything. The house of cards fell down immediately after next season and we were back at square one. Being able to grind a squad out is only good if you either win the big honours (which we didn't) or are able to use it as a platform to go on and win the big stuff (which we didn't - we massively regressed). If we win the EL and finish second, I don't understand how you can think we've achieved less than under Mourinho. He won the Carling Cup as well. Woop de doo. Being able to develop and progress the squad and mould it into an adaptable, functional side is a huge achievement in itself, which Ole has been able to do. Back to back CL qualification for the first time since Fergie speaks to how inconsistent we've been until now in terms of league finishes.
 

R77

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There's been a variety of instances that show tactical adaptability on a game by game basis, but within games is often very poor. Really needs to identify issues and make changes quicker. Can't always let the players work through it amongst themselves, that won't work everytime. Along with the set pieces, it points toward some evolution needed in the coaching staff. Needs his Meulensteen.

Also needs to rotate more so that players coming in have a semblence of form and match fitness, and everyone in general is a bit fresher.

There's a lot of context not only around last night's game, but throughout the tenure that partially explain some of the issues, but signings alone won't mask the weaknesses.

Last night was obviously an odd one given the circumstances, but it was a warning.
 

Karlos PFC

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If he gets 2 players(Saul, Grealish) I would expect him to challenge next season. If he doesn't then I don't see how we're supposed to catch up City.

Poor performance last night. Terrible defending all round. At least it doesn't matter too much, but we need to build some momentum going into the final. Come on United.
I absolutely adore Grealish and Saul but no way they're both coming, we'd need 150-160m just for these two.


Not being backed this window is a good excuse if we don't challenge next season.
It depends what you consider backing. If it means spend 200m on Haaland and Sancho then, no I don't think he'll be backed. With just a better cb than Lindeloff or Maguire, a better cdm than McFred and some better utilizing VDB, Amad, Telles and we're good to go.

You dont want us to sign anyone because...excuses?
Where exactly have I said that I dont us to sign anyone? Just that I'm sick of all the excuses people are coming with for defending Ole. At some point he has to be held accountable as every coach before him with what we show on field.

First and foremost I expect the coach of a team to develop the players he already has at his disposal, it's not viable to just buy expensive toys if you can't utilize and get the best out of them. This "show passion and give them a run for their money" and "go out and enjoy yourselves " football at some point has to develop into something more structured and clear. It's been ok (mostly) for the past 2 years but there are still a lot of things with our football that needs addressing like building from the back, set pieces etc
 
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Bobcat

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Where exactly have I said that I dont us to sign anyone? Just that I'm sick of all the excuses people are coming with for defending Ole. At some point he has to be held accountable as every coach before him with what we show on field.

First and foremost I expect the coach of a team to develop the players he already has at his disposal, it's not viable to just buy expensive toys if you can't utilize and get the best out of them. This "show passion and give them a run for their money" and "go out and enjoy yourselves " football at some point has to develop into something more structured and clear. It's been ok (mostly) for the past 2 years but there are still a lot of things with our football that needs addressing like building from the back, set pieces etc
Why does everything has to be "excuses"? A player having a bad game is something that happens from time to time, its not an excuse.

A player not being good enough is also not an excuse. Playing in the PL is an extremely high bar to clear and very few make the cut. The idea that you can just "develop" whoever into class players is nonsense. Best case a manager can have a keen eye for talent, but not even Pep can make a silk purse from a sows ear

So two losses in dead rubber games and we are back to Ole being a clueless cheerleader? Sounds to me like you carry a serious chip on your shoulder re Ole
 

Mainoldo

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Even though I'm on the fence with Ole and conceded that hes done ok(ish), can't help but feel that next year we'll be struggling for 5th or 6th. The excuses have already started appearing "no backing, McFred, past it CF, Glazers fault, etc".
Next year will be make or break, enough with lame excuses. If he can't get this team to play football and challenge for the biggest trophies after 3,5 years, there is no point in insisting with.
The clubs in a nice position. I’d be happy if I was the owners. They can keep Ole here for a few years not fully back him and the fans will just accept it. They do now.. they’ll just blame everyone but the manager. Aslong as he gets top 4 and if he doesn’t we lack our current momentum and they get to sit behind another 3 year project.

It’s a joke but the only people to blame are the fans. We are enablers.
 

Acquire Me

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The clubs in a nice position. I’d be happy if I was the owners. They can keep Ole here for a few years not fully back him and the fans will just accept it. They do now.. they’ll just blame everyone but the manager. Aslong as he gets top 4 and if he doesn’t we lack our current momentum and they get to sit behind another 3 year project.

It’s a joke but the only people to blame are the fans. We are enablers.
I don’t agree. A lot of people don’t agree. I like where we are going. Still work to do, but we are getting results.
 

Mainoldo

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I don’t agree. A lot of people don’t agree. I like where we are going. Still work to do, but we are getting results.
Where are we going? We’ve literally gone full circle from 2017.

What’s the plan? Is Pogba playing left wing or pivot next season? Is McFred staying CM. Is Bruno’s position going to mean a DVB and Jesse Lingard get zero minutes again?

I just don’t see what the plan is.
 

432JuanMata

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I’ve think he has done a good job especially this season but and it’s a big but we need to challenge next season or it’s not progress and while I think he has done the best job since SAF I’m still unsure whether he is capable of getting a side challenging.
 

keithsingleton

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Nobody claims the improvements under Ole have been done in light-speed time, but the improvements have been there from the start.

There is a big difference between having ‘blind faith’ and being observant.
I agree he's finally improving the side but I have a concern abou him conceding so many goals from set plays. Do you think he's improved that side?
 

SeanyC

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In the past I have called for his sacking, and with good merit! Now I’m not so sure, looking at it there actually has been major progress and I guess I have been just too quick to jump the gun. However, he will need players this summer and a bit of a clear out required also. If he gets the right players and makes a proper run at it next season I’ll be happy.
I just fear that the likes of Bruno and Pogba won’t stay on after another failed year of no PL title.
As much as there has been progress compared to previous managers in charge, next season really is the time to go to that next level.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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Do you guys think Daniel James will score hattrick vs Newcastle if he plays under Pep Guardiola?

Not in my view. Sums up the squad that Ole has and Pep has.
 

MattyLT

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Playing out from the back United style:

keeper ball -> short pass to defender close enough to hold hands -> another short pass to right/left back -> immediately get pressured with no outlet -> panic -> hoof ball aimlessly

Might as well just hoof the ball straight from goal kick then.

And then there's set pieces.

But other than that, things are generally looking good.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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This is true but didn’t we pay nearly as much for James as City did for Torres?
It wasn't even in pandemic year and James was still cheaper. But why is it even matter regarding to Ole as the manager in this thread? Ole & Pep are not the one who negotiated the price. Can you blame the manager when the board spending their time lying to manager that they could afford Sancho last summer? We could get Torres or Raphinha or someone else as better alternative than James now if the board actually tells Ole to give up on Sancho and find alternative.
 

Karlos PFC

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Why does everything has to be "excuses"? A player having a bad game is something that happens from time to time, its not an excuse.

A player not being good enough is also not an excuse. Playing in the PL is an extremely high bar to clear and very few make the cut. The idea that you can just "develop" whoever into class players is nonsense. Best case a manager can have a keen eye for talent, but not even Pep can make a silk purse from a sows ear

So two losses in dead rubber games and we are back to Ole being a clueless cheerleader? Sounds to me like you carry a serious chip on your shoulder re Ole
I'm not suggesting that everyone can develop into quality players, you're missing the point.
John O'Shea wasn't exactly what someone would call world class player but he could do a job for us.

I didn't call Ole anything on the contrary I've said that he's done ok and deserves his 3rd year. Who's got a chip on who's shoulder I wonder.
 

Pogue Mahone

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It wasn't even in pandemic year and James was still cheaper. But why is it even matter regarding to Ole as the manager in this thread? Ole & Pep are not the one who negotiated the price. Can you blame the manager when the board spending their time lying to manager that they could afford Sancho last summer? We could get Torres or Raphinha or someone else as better alternative than James now if the board actually tells Ole to give up on Sancho and find alternative.
Pep has missed out on plenty of targets top. At least two of them are currently playing for us.

Anyway, I’m not going to argue that City’s squad isn’t miles better than ours or that ours would be a hell of a lot better than it is now if we could match their spending power. I just think there’s only so much complaining we can do about the money invested in our squad when we’ve spend as much money as we have these last few years.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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Pep has missed out on plenty of targets top. At least two of them are currently playing for us.

Anyway, I’m not going to argue that City’s squad isn’t miles better than ours or that ours would be a hell of a lot better than it is now if we could match their spending power. I just think there’s only so much complaining we can do about the money invested in our squad when we’ve spend as much money as we have these last few years.
He's a manager and in transfer business his job is to identify which area he needs to improve and nothing to do with how much money we invested on the player. Your point seems to be only relevant if we are talking in different thread that related to our board, DoF, Ed Woodward or Matt Judge

In this thread, what I was talking about is relevant to Ole's performance as a manager. Our squad is still nowhere near Man City squad. Their XI is still better and their squad depth is much better than ours. That reflects to limitation what manager can do/perform this season given the squad he has compared to the one above him (Man City).
 

Mainoldo

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He's a manager and in transfer business his job is to identify which area he needs to improve and nothing to do with how much money we invested on the player. Your point seems to be only relevant if we are talking in different thread that related to our board, DoF, Ed Woodward or Matt Judge

In this thread, what I was talking about is relevant to Ole's performance as a manager. Our squad is still nowhere near Man City squad. Their XI is still better and their squad depth is much better than ours. That reflects to limitation what manager can do/perform this season with lack of quality in our squad depth.
He signed him lad. He didn’t have to buy him. He could have told the club to get Torres if he wanted.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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He signed him lad. He didn’t have to buy him. He could have told the club to get Torres if he wanted.
He signed him in 2019 because he was available in 2019. Torres was only available in 2020. Different year mate. What's next? Ole is to blamed for not predicting the future that Torres would be available in 2020? :lol:
 

Mainoldo

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He signed him in 2019 because he was available in 2019. Torres was only available in 2020. Different year mate. What's next? Ole is to blamed for not predicting the future that Torres would be available in 2020? :lol:
Foolish me. I didn’t realise Ole wanted Torres but because he was unavailable in 2019 because his availablity only kicked in in 2020. He had to settle for Dan James. Who I take it he didn’t really won’t. Ed Woodward signing.
 
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UNITED ACADEMY

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Foolish me. I didn’t realise Ole wanted Torres but because he was unavailable in 2019 because his release clause miraculously only kicked in in 2020, which is the first time that has ever happened for a Spanish league player. He had to settle for Dan James. Who I take it he didn’t really won’t. Ed Woodward signing.
Players are Ole's signings. However, the ones who do transfer negotiation, adjusting budget, understand whether players are available or affordable is not Ole or the manager's job, it's Ed & Matt Judge responsibility. And you don't understand that.

Torres had 100m release clause in 2019 and Valencia wouldn't let him go in 2019 for less than that. In 2020, Torres was available because his contract was expired in 2021 and Valencia was forced to sell their main players due to financial problem. Man City signed Torres on 4th August 2020 and we were still chasing for Sancho at that time. Why is it Ole's fault for targeting the better player to upgrade his starting XI? :houllier:

Everything is Ole's fault in your mind. Will you ever think rationally sometime?
 

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I agree he's finally improving the side but I have a concern abou him conceding so many goals from set plays. Do you think he's improved that side?
I think a stat like that can in itself be an anomaly. There have been spells where it’s also been a lot better.

I think we could have just had a bad run of conceding from them. Definitely needs looking at and improving for next season though.
 

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I'm not suggesting that everyone can develop into quality players, you're missing the point.
John O'Shea wasn't exactly what someone would call world class player but he could do a job for us.

I didn't call Ole anything on the contrary I've said that he's done ok and deserves his 3rd year. Who's got a chip on who's shoulder I wonder.
You said several times you were "sick of the excuses". Reading between the lines that means (in my head) you dont want to discuss other factors, you want to go back to pointing fingers at Ole for everything

Wanting the Glazers out or thinking that McFred isn't a good enough CM pairing are valid points on their own and does not necessarily have anything to do with Ole
 

keithsingleton

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I think a stat like that can in itself be an anomaly. There have been spells where it’s also been a lot better.

I think we could have just had a bad run of conceding from them. Definitely needs looking at and improving for next season though.
I'm of the opinion he's always been pretty bad on set pieces. However, we agree it needs sorting for next season.
 

NZT-One

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Players are Ole's signings. However, the ones who do transfer negotiation, adjusting budget, understand whether players are available or affordable is not Ole or the manager's job, it's Ed & Matt Judge responsibility. And you don't understand that.

Torres had 100m release clause in 2019 and Valencia wouldn't let him go in 2019 for less than that. In 2020, Torres was available because his contract was expired in 2021 and Valencia was forced to sell their main players due to financial problem. Man City signed Torres on 4th August 2020 and we were still chasing for Sancho at that time. Why is it Ole's fault for targeting the better player to upgrade his starting XI? :houllier:

Everything is Ole's fault in your mind. Will you ever think rationally sometime?
I think rationality would be ashamed how the term gets used these days. I made that point a few times already but I think, the discussion would be a lot less stingy, if some, and I think you kind of belong into that group, would apply the same claims for "rationality" or "objectivity" yourself. I am surely not the only one who has the feeling that this particular is ready to bash everything and anything but the manager in itself. Its the Glazers, its quality of offense/midfield/defense, its squad depth at offense/midfield/defense, its being unlucky with chance creation/chance conversion, being unlucky with referee decisions, its "we are not there yet" - but in no way, shape or form is there a chance that it could have anything to do with the manager. All factors play their parts but there is no chance, the manager isn't a factor in that as well. We can and should discuss the extend of influence of each and every factor.

Putting all the blame on the manager is just as irrational as taking him out of the equation.

Controversial opinion: If Ole identified the RW as the most pushing issue of last years transfer summer, he, as part of the transfer team, should have been pushing towards not just having plan A. I would expect that sort of rationality from every member of a so called transfer team but the more you are a football person, and the more you expect this position to be a problem, you can't just line up a big transfer and chase it all summer. At some point, you just have to turn away, execute plan B.
 

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I'd like to see that back 3 more and more. Shaw at LCB was very promising. Telles is more of a wingback than left back. His crosses are good, he is quick and he is more attack-minded. Yes, I have seen what Shaw can do, but he was really good at LCB. Good at carrying the ball, too. Then we can change Axel and Lindelöf, depending on the opponent. AWB has shown that he can cross and attack the space, too.

Also, there was a decent shout that Rash, Greenwood and Martial are more of wide forwards than pure wingers. This 3-4-3 or 3-5-2 would be really efficient.

If we have a back 3, then no need to play McFred and overshield the defence, instead play Pogba, Fred/McTominay and Bruno in 3-5-2 and whoever from 4 strikers we have; with 3-4-3/3-4-1-2 we can play Bruno in 10 and Pogba with Fred/McTominay in the middle. Double pivot becomes less defence-minded and Pogba can more roam around and seek for areas to do the most damage.

I feel that our pure wingers (James, Diallo) are too weak to be played for their strengths, so I'd drop the 4-2-3-1 and focus mainly how to find the balance between defence and attack. Bruno adds up nicely for attack and back 3 combined with CM has its balance as well.


To be honest, we have the necessary pieces to perform at the top level, but we are still looking for wingers and trying to play with a double pivot or a back 4.