"We lose money on every sale, but make it up in volume".Apparently being shite in the short term is good for the long term.
Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
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We're game raisers under him, we did well against Chelsea, and ok against Arsenal, Leicester & Liverpool.
Watch us lose to Norwich and Bournemouth. It won't be a shock will it, in fact I'd be surprised if we're even favorites.
Truth be told, he's a shit manager and we're going nowhere under him, but some fans don't want to admit it because they are loyal to a club legend. I get it. Let's not pretend we're building something here though.
Watch us lose to Norwich and Bournemouth. It won't be a shock will it, in fact I'd be surprised if we're even favorites.
Truth be told, he's a shit manager and we're going nowhere under him, but some fans don't want to admit it because they are loyal to a club legend. I get it. Let's not pretend we're building something here though.
Really happy to see these types of mind.
I hope Ole will have everybody fit and signs players to fill the gaps we currently have, to progress and lead us to the right direction.
Next games are vital and we need to win them, with Pogba, Martial, AWB and Shaw back, it will be easier.
Can you see us making business in the january window ?
I think this arguments for or against Ole would not go anywhere, our 5 upcoming games in PL are not the most challenging games we would have, If he manages to get 12 out of 15 I would say I see the progress at least results wise. otherwise, he has no option rather than leaving us.
Because 4 in 22 since that PSG game is a weird, made us criteria that doesn't have any relevance other than to the Ole Out Agenda?
No matter which way you look at it he has a terrible record.
It's not a good record but any employer making up goalposts to judge performance on wouldn't get very far.
You can either judge his entire interim and permanent tenure or this season alone. Anything else is cherry picking.
I was all for giving Ole a season or two to rebuild, but i honestly cant see any progress in either style or results. We have improved our defence agreed, but its clear our lack of creativity and a proven goal scoring threat is our biggest problem and i don't see us solving either of those in January. I
If we can build on some momentum and get some wins in the next few games, then maybe i can believe a little again, but i am not overly optimistic.
n my opinion, t
he only blame i could put on Ole on Sunday was some odd subs, Martial was not going to bring anything to a team hanging on needing an outlet, and at that point we were not going to add a second goal. Rashford was playing well on scraps and was tracking back well.....taking him off for Martial was naïve.If we can build on some momentum and get some wins in the next few games, then maybe i can believe a little again, but i am not overly optimistic.
Of course Pogba and Martial will make a difference. But whether Ole knows how to get the best out of them is another story.
His overall win rate including the honeymoon period with all its wins is a grand total of 46.3% in 41 games, the worst out of all post SAF United managers.
I just typed out an overly long personal analysis of how I think we are intending to play (current injuries considered)...
Then I realised that you won't care enough to read it, and neither would I.
But people on here wish to believe that the combined Footballing knowledge of Ole, Mckenna, Carrick, Phelan and Demspey equates to nothing. Theyre just rolling dice to decide team selections and telling the squad its about taking part that counts?
Once we get a full strength squad back, you'll see the mood change here.
I'm actually interested hence why I asked.Look you can decide you know what people are thinking if you want, but its clear to me that is it not easy to decipher they way we are attempting to play from pre season, then going into the season (without any injuries) then also playing without Pogba and now with a lot of injuries.
Also regarding the combined football knowledge, many clubs have people with football experience which fail to implement their plan.
Anyway I suspect you also find it difficult to decipher hence why you didn't bother posting the answer to the question you were clearly asked.
But in future please don't insult my intelligence by telling me I wouldn't be bothered to read the answer to the question I asked, if not then why would I even ask the question?
No I realised that I don't have a Pro License to back up my anaylsis, so I'm essentially becoming the 'armchair tactian' that I was moaning about.
Look you can decide you know what people are thinking if you want, but its clear to me that is it not easy to decipher they way we are attempting to play from pre season, then going into the season (without any injuries) then also playing without Pogba and now with a lot of injuries.
Also regarding the combined football knowledge, many clubs have people with football experience which fail to implement their plan.
Anyway I suspect you also find it difficult to decipher hence why you didn't bother posting the answer to the question you were clearly asked.
It's a shame that others can't do similar quality checks on themselves before spouting rubbish on here.
I agree that the implementation isn't there but there are clear signs of a playstyle thats progress from Jose. And I'm pleased because unlike Jose' philosophy, I can see where Ole's pointed the team and its clear on what we need to achieve it, whether or not Ole's is still in place to deliver it to fruition...not my concern, and I'm sure I made that clear in my initial post.
Every person replying in this thread (and the forum in general I guess) fancies him or herself to be somewhat of an armchair tactician. Why would we presume to know better than that of professional football managers and their players otherwise?
Football fans talk shit. It's just what we do
Wait so you don't have a pro license so describing what Ole is doing would make you an 'armchair tactician'... right ok
So you declaring that there are clear signs of a play style, doesn't make you an 'armchair tactician'.... right ok
So let me get this right, you think that you declaring that you can see a style, but then not even describing what it is, makes sense... right
If describing it isn't allowed because you do not possess a coaching license, what then gives you the license to declare you are able to identify the style?
I'm a little confused how you can come and tell people to check themselves before spouting rubbish when you are on a forum making claims about tactics (when you're not a qualified coach) which you can't even back up with any thought or evidence (because you are not a qualified coach) makes total sense....
There's a line where talking tactics becomes, what's this arsehat chatting.
A three page explanation on a playstyle that is regarded as personal opinion is firmly in arsehat territory
So why then say that there clearly is one if you cannot explain it. That then would then surely mean its only your opinion that it exists no?
Yeah, just replace Ole with LVG or Jose and you would have even more footballing knowledge and yet they failed.
So, even with the full strength squad, what does your tactical analysis say, on the form towards the end of the last season.
exactly. The form was shit at the end of the season and we didnt have too many injuries to my knowledge. THen it was wait for Ole and his preseason work with the squad and everything will be magically better. Now it is back to injuries as the excuse. You keep a smaller squad, you risk the injuries. Same thing we had under LVG. Except he didn't get to stay and use that as an excuse.
Well, I think it's a bit of both. Certainly Ole has only half a plan - to counter-attack, but United also seem more focused and determined in games against the bigger teams.
Being a caretaker manager in a throwaway season and having 6 first team injuries in the first 9 games are migitating factors. It hasn't been a fair trail and to call for his head at this point is unbalanced criticism
LVG and Jose both had fair trials.
My opinion is that there is clearly a playstyle, your opinion is that there is not. Let's call it a day.
OK so I think it's time we weighed up the pro's and con's that have been argued throughout this thread and really look at them with open eyes and some real rationale.
Let us start with the arguments against Ole:
- 4 wins in 22 games since PSG.
- Currently 14th in the PL after 9 games;
- Winless away from home in eight matches.
- Haven't scored more than one goal since first game against Chelsea.
- Unable to hold on to a lead, having thrown leads away against Wolves, Southampton, Rochdale, Arsenal and Liverpool.
- Let go of Herrera, Lukaku, Fellaini and Sanchez without any like for like replacements and now the squad is threadbare and the best striker is a 10-goal-a-season man. Was the risk of injury to players not considered?
- Handed new contracts to Jones, Mata, Young despite claiming he wants to remove deadwood.
- Why are so many players injured (12 isn't it) 9 games into a season? Coincidence? Pure bad luck? Something wrong with training/fitness regimes?
- In-game management seems to be lacking. Subs made too late, system doesn't change, never appears to be a plan B, C or anything but a plan A.
- Won back to back titles with Molde in his first two seasons but finished 6th in his 3rd season, then heading to Cardiff, eventually relegating them and getting the sack.
- Won 9 out of 30 games for Cardiff (win rate of 30%)
- Returns to Molde and wins no titles finishing 5th in 2016, and runners up the following two seasons.
- Since leaving, Molde are now 1st in the league, 5 points clear with 5 games remaining, having lost only 3 of 25.
- Since leaving Molde, they have a win rate this season over 25 games of 68%. Ole's win rate for the club was 55.56%.
- Has a win rate for Manchester United, including the so called honeymoon period, of 47.5%, lower than any United manager since 1981.
- Worse start of a season for 33 years.
The arguments for Ole:
- If SAF had been sacked this early we wouldn't have had our many years of eventual success. (SAF had previously won silverware, incl European, for Aberdeen)
- It's a process (despite no visible progress and dire results, see above).
- His signings are good (Jose wanted Maguire, Giggs recommended James), so credit at least for AWB.
- He is a club legend.
- He had an initially good start with United.
- He is a nice guy, always smiling.
- He's giving youth a chance (despite Greenwood, Gomes etc barely playing).
- It has to get worse before it gets better (this one always amazes me).
- We drew against Liverpool.
- It's the United way.
- It's the players, not the manager.
- He has inherited years of bad management so deserves time to sort out the mess.
- Woodward is to blame for all the negatives, Ole is responsible for everything positive.
The thing that really strikes me is that all the negatives are backed up by hard evidence and statistics, yet the positives are somewhat subjective and there are zero stats which can be used to make a positive case for Ole.
Happy for anyone to add anything to either list if they are able to!?
For me, it all points to one thing, the need for Ole to go ASAP. But what do I know.
Let us start with the arguments against Ole:
- 4 wins in 22 games since PSG.
- Currently 14th in the PL after 9 games;
- 2 points above relegation
- 15 points behind leaders
- GD of +1
- 22.22% win ratio
- 10 points from 9 games
- 2 wins in last 14 league matches, with 6 draws and 6 defeats.- 15 points behind leaders
- GD of +1
- 22.22% win ratio
- 10 points from 9 games
- Winless away from home in eight matches.
- Haven't scored more than one goal since first game against Chelsea.
- Unable to hold on to a lead, having thrown leads away against Wolves, Southampton, Rochdale, Arsenal and Liverpool.
- Let go of Herrera, Lukaku, Fellaini and Sanchez without any like for like replacements and now the squad is threadbare and the best striker is a 10-goal-a-season man. Was the risk of injury to players not considered?
- Handed new contracts to Jones, Mata, Young despite claiming he wants to remove deadwood.
- Why are so many players injured (12 isn't it) 9 games into a season? Coincidence? Pure bad luck? Something wrong with training/fitness regimes?
- In-game management seems to be lacking. Subs made too late, system doesn't change, never appears to be a plan B, C or anything but a plan A.
- Won back to back titles with Molde in his first two seasons but finished 6th in his 3rd season, then heading to Cardiff, eventually relegating them and getting the sack.
- Won 9 out of 30 games for Cardiff (win rate of 30%)
- Returns to Molde and wins no titles finishing 5th in 2016, and runners up the following two seasons.
- Since leaving, Molde are now 1st in the league, 5 points clear with 5 games remaining, having lost only 3 of 25.
- Since leaving Molde, they have a win rate this season over 25 games of 68%. Ole's win rate for the club was 55.56%.
- Has a win rate for Manchester United, including the so called honeymoon period, of 47.5%, lower than any United manager since 1981.
- Worse start of a season for 33 years.
The arguments for Ole:
- If SAF had been sacked this early we wouldn't have had our many years of eventual success. (SAF had previously won silverware, incl European, for Aberdeen)
- It's a process (despite no visible progress and dire results, see above).
- His signings are good (Jose wanted Maguire, Giggs recommended James), so credit at least for AWB.
- He is a club legend.
- He had an initially good start with United.
- He is a nice guy, always smiling.
- He's giving youth a chance (despite Greenwood, Gomes etc barely playing).
- It has to get worse before it gets better (this one always amazes me).
- We drew against Liverpool.
- It's the United way.
- It's the players, not the manager.
- He has inherited years of bad management so deserves time to sort out the mess.
- Woodward is to blame for all the negatives, Ole is responsible for everything positive.
The thing that really strikes me is that all the negatives are backed up by hard evidence and statistics, yet the positives are somewhat subjective and there are zero stats which can be used to make a positive case for Ole.
Happy for anyone to add anything to either list if they are able to!?
For me, it all points to one thing, the need for Ole to go ASAP. But what do I know.
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You said, with the full strength squad, the mood will change. My question was why was this full strength squad failing towards the end of the season?.
Where have I even said this
What I said what its difficult to decipher what it is, which is why I asked you to describe it
The main one people keep alluding to, "There is no one else available". To me, that is not an enough reason to keep a failing manager.
So you’d prefer no manager? Phelan? Carrick? Woodward?
Ole or no Ole is as stupid as Leave or Remain without knowing the Brexit deal. Ole vs a given replacement is the decision.
Unfortunately the writeup, while a good idea, is too biased to be approached from both sides.
2 newly promoted teams are ahead of us, Villa and Sheffield.14th, after 9 rounds played by all teams.
Not the most balanced pros & cons list I've ever seen. It reads more like a dig at Ole than anything constructive.
In any case, you seem to have omitted a few underlying factors from 'the arguments for Ole' section such as:
- The squad and its many failings currently available to Ole is mostly the work of Jose Mourinho and, to a lesser extent, LVG.
- The players within the squad are performing to a similarly low standard today as when they played under the above managers.
- The ongoing injury crisis has had a large impact on performances squad wide and results by extension.
Nice argument, make full sense. Hope Liverpool is a turning point and the team start climbing the table else Ole has to go come 2020 January. Give the new man half a season to decide what he needs for the summer transfer window.
I know, I know. I really tried to remove my bias but then I just couldn’t help myself. But I spent that long writing it out I couldn’t bring myself to not post it
. I did try to keep it neutral but then as I thought about it long and hard, it just hit home how bad things are right now.We're guaranteed to drop to 15th (at least temporarily) since Brighton are playing Everton on Saturday.
We're 14th in the league, not playing youth, struggling to score, and playing boring football. It's like all the concerns of Mourinho without actually winning. Not sure how anyone can actually support him continuing the be manager if they were actually looking at this without bias.
1) Our squad was still good enough to finish 2nd.
2) The players are performing to a much much much worse standard then under Jose or LVG... don’t forget LVG was playing Academy players McNair, Blacket, Jackson and still only missed out on 4th due to goal difference. To put it into context City sell academy players and they become £100m + superstars, what happened to the 3 I named?
It’s astounding that people think it was this bad under LVG and Mourinho. A complete rewriting of history, just to make Ole not appear as bad as he is. Under LVG even in his final season there were times in December when we were a win away from going top. Now we’re probably a loss away from going into the relegation zone.
3) We were crap under Ole even without the injuries.
Good post. We should make a sticky of it so I don't have to point the same things out over and over again to those in favor of Ole at the wheel.
Daley Blind talks truth. Praises Chelsea, feels bad to see state of United. Note he doesn’t talk the same “give Ole time” nonesense. He’s from Ajax a place built on coaching and developing. I’m certain if he thought or saw signs that Ole was capable he would have stated. So his silence is damming.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/metro....daley-blind-high-praise-chelsea-10966233/amp/
https://www.google.com/amp/s/metro....daley-blind-high-praise-chelsea-10966233/amp/
Ole still clearly has the dressing room the players still play for him. And it’s not banter me saying as an Arsenal fan he should be given more time even if you don’t finish in a European qualifying position why he wasn’t given more funds in the summer is anybodies guess but maybe this will come in the next few transfer windows. What Utd are lacking is confidence you guys put Liverpool to the sword the other night and we’re the better team only a few tweaks are required are my opinion.
Owners are an issue in my opinion for complete lack of knowledge in the game and passion of the club thing with Utd is missing out on Champions League doesn’t effect commercial revenue whatsoever they make the sort of money where European football is lose change and doesn’t make dent not qualifying so deemed not important to the owners.
Owners are an issue in my opinion for complete lack of knowledge in the game and passion of the club thing with Utd is missing out on Champions League doesn’t effect commercial revenue whatsoever they make the sort of money where European football is lose change and doesn’t make dent not qualifying so deemed not important to the owners.
Without bias ole would be escorted out of carrington and given his sacking by whatsapp.
It's only bias and favoritism that's keeping him.on the job.
It's only bias and favoritism that's keeping him.on the job.
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