Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion

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Raven

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No, because SAF's best attribute was his ability to identify changes in the game and adapt. If we're going to be brutally honest though, even SAF struggled against Pep and his style historically. SAF would have adapted - evidenced by his hiring of Carlos etc. in the past. Let's not start comparing Ole to SAF. Not to add, no matter how good a coach is - times change. Mourinho for a period was untouchable as a manager, now his approach and ideology is outdated. The game has changed.

I also don't agree. He won what? 3 titles in his time there? Also Molde have been doing about as good, if not better since he left. I will say that it was an impressive feat that he won them their first title in however long it was. Given the competitiveness of the league and the circumstances, I don't think it was that impressive all together, though, no. Before he joined us as interim, he was coming off his third year in a row with Molde without winning a trophy iirc, that's hardly 'doing well'
So what you're saying is that SAF would have made it because of his pragmatism? Do you not see the contradictions in what you're saying? I'm not saying with any certainty that Ole will be a success, never mind as good as SAF but to say pragmatism is dead is just nonsensical, especially given that Pep changed his style against us this season so as to avoid being done on the counter.

They've won like 3 in their history, 2 of them came whilst Ole was in charge. They're clearly not the biggest or best team in their league, so to bring that success shouldn't be overlooked. Given where we are in the league and that we are objectively playing much better football than any time in the post Fergie years, why are you so against giving him till the end of next season? Why must he go now?
 

Zlatan 7

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What the feck? I literally had a whole paragraph on our goals scored, firstly. Secondly, let's not be ridiculous, the only reason we are ahead of Liverpool is because we have been lucky as feck with injuries, Liverpool have been absolutely fecked with them and it's been a weird season. They have had like 4 of their starting defenders out, were playing midfielders in defence and still have a better defensive record than us this season. Not to add, they have a higher XG than us - so the fact that we're ahead of them is not sustainable considering they have outperformed us in both aspects of the game, even with all their injuries.

If statistically they are a superior side this season, given the circumstances, what makes anyone genuinely think we have even the slightest of chances next season or beyond when they will be back to full strength, if not stronger? We legitimately need to be an anomaly against a team decimated with injuries to be ahead of them in the table.

Let's also not kid ourselves into thinking we are in a title challenge. We're not. We kept the spot warm while City got their feet under them.
Twice you’ve mentioned Liverpool’s being decimated or fecked by injuries, they’ve got two centre backs out.
theyve been playing with Alison, TAA, Robertson, Henderson, Thiago, salah, firminho and losing. They were getting smashed by villa before VVD was injured.

And it’s been a weird season for everybody not just Liverpool or Man City.
 

Womp

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So what you're saying is that SAF would have made it because of his pragmatism? Do you not see the contradictions in what you're saying? I'm not saying with any certainty that Ole will be a success, never mind as good as SAF but to say pragmatism is dead is just nonsensical, especially given that Pep changed his style against us this season so as to avoid being done on the counter.

They've won like 3 in their history, 2 of them came whilst Ole was in charge. They're clearly not the biggest or best team in their league, so to bring that success shouldn't be overlooked. Given where we are in the league and that we are objectively playing much better football than any time in the post Fergie years, why are you so against giving him till the end of next season? Why must he go now?
SAF's approach would have resulted in him hiring the appropriate coaches to ensure his side can build a proper identity. Ole has done nothing in regards to staff recruitment to suggest he is even interested in going down this route. If I was to see this, I'd be more than happy to give him time.

As of now though, I'm against giving him until the end of next season because simply put he's shown nothing to suggest it will be anything apart from a waste of time. If we keep being nice to managers simply because they're nice and are giving it a proper try, we will be stuck in this rut for longer than 10 years.

Rodgers did well with Liverpool, they could have stuck around and gave him another shot, but they found a better opportunity and were ruthless and benefited from it.
 

Womp

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Twice you’ve mentioned Liverpool’s being decimated or fecked by injuries, they’ve got two centre backs out.
theyve been playing with Alison, TAA, Robertson, Henderson, Thiago, salah, firminho and losing. They were getting smashed by villa before VVD was injured.

And it’s been a weird season for everybody not just Liverpool or Man City.
Matip, VVD, Gomez and Allison have all been out. They've had to play midfielders in defence. That's the equivalent of us using Scotty and Fred as our CB's.

They were getting smashed, but we got equally smashed by Spurs. I ain't going to base a whole season on one match
 

amolbhatia50k

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Because he wasn't ever a tactical genius. He never introduced anything new to the game in that respect. If we are holding him against Guardiola as a tactician then he falls a mile short, and your definition of what makes a world class manager seems to be heavy on the tactical side while ignoring a lot of the qualities that Ole (and Ferguson) bought to the table.
:lol: Wrong on so many levels.
 

AshRK

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Matip, VVD, Gomez and Allison have all been out. They've had to play midfielders in defence. That's the equivalent of us using Scotty and Fred as our CB's.

They were getting smashed, but we got equally smashed by Spurs. I ain't going to base a whole season on one match
Matip and gomez have been injury prone so their injury is not a surprise. Klopp could have spent wisely but he chose to spend on a lb that he rarely plays and 25m on thiago when they were already strong in midfield. VVD is a huge blow but apart from that they have been playing their full strength for the last 2 months. Who asked Klopp to play Jota in a meaningless CL group stage game when they had already qualified and finished 1st. Who is asking Klopp to play Henderson and Fabinho in defense when he could show more trust to his young CBs or the new CBs he has bought. It's funny how Klopp gets sympathies for injuries but when last season Ole lost pogba for almost whole of first half of season, martial for almost 2 months, shaw for one month, Rashford for 2 months there were no sympathies but instead the general theme was injuries are part of the game.

Truth is Klopp has grossly mismanaged his side this season and bar VVD he has had his best team available for most of the season.
 

Womp

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Matip and gomez have been injury prone so their injury is not a surprise. Klopp could have spent wisely but he chose to spend on a lb that he rarely plays and 25m on thiago when they were already strong in midfield. VVD is a huge blow but apart from that they have been playing their full strength for the last 2 months. Who asked Klopp to play Jota in a meaningless CL group stage game when they had already qualified and finished 1st. Who is asking Klopp to play Henderson and Fabinho in defense when he could show more trust to his young CBs or the new CBs he has bought. It's funny how Klopp gets sympathies for injuries but when last season Ole lost pogba for almost whole of first half of season, martial for almost 2 months, shaw for one month, Rashford for 2 months there were no sympathies but instead the general theme was injuries are part of the game.

Truth is Klopp has grossly mismanaged his side this season and bar VVD he has had his best team available for most of the season.
That has absolutely nothing to do with the point raised. We are where we are due to their squad circumsrance, regardless of the reasoning.

Also that same logic can be used against Ole. His absolute refusal to make subs and his absolute refusal to rest Pogba for VDB etc is why Pogba went down with a hamstring injury. It can go both ways.
 

AshRK

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That has absolutely nothing to do with the point raised. We are where we are due to their squad circumsrance, regardless of the reasoning.

Also that same logic can be used against Ole. His absolute refusal to make subs and his absolute refusal to rest Pogba for VDB etc is why Pogba went down with a hamstring injury. It can go both ways.
But it's you who brought Liverpool's injury points not anyone else here. You were the one who said Ole is lucky Liverpool have suffered injuries when the other poster also corrected you that you are just overexagerating their injuries. Liverpool for the past 2 months have played with their full strength side bar their CBs and yet their form has been horrendous. And also Matip has been an injury prone defender (played just 9 games last season in the league) . So shouldn't klopp have strengthed their defense rather than spending money on LB and Thiago. Why couldn't he play the two new defenders he has bought than playing Henderson and Fabinho there when everyone knows Henderson in mf is much better. How does Klopp's mismanagement make Ole or other manager's lucky.

Also, how does playing pogba in a league game equivalent to Klopp playing Jota in a meaningless less group stage game. You are now just making weird points. We get it you don't like Ole but why resort to weird points. It's like me saying only reason Liverpool won the league last season was because they were lucky Pep lost players due to injuries.
 

Zlatan 7

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That has absolutely nothing to do with the point raised. We are where we are due to their squad circumsrance, regardless of the reasoning.

Also that same logic can be used against Ole. His absolute refusal to make subs and his absolute refusal to rest Pogba for VDB etc is why Pogba went down with a hamstring injury. It can go both ways.
You said this
“Secondly, let's not be ridiculous, the only reason we are ahead of Liverpool is because we have been lucky as feck with injuries, Liverpool have been absolutely fecked with them”
So I think it kind of is the point raised, making excuses for Liverpool to downplay what’s been done at United.

considering Oles “absolute refusal to make a sub” we’re not doing bad with our ‘luck’ in not picking up many injuries
 

Raveneye

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The 9-0 surely massively skews some of those stats. In theory we could have gone on not to score a single goal in the following 7 matches and the boast “we’re averaging at least a goal a game” would be true.

Yes we’ve had high scoring games but we’ve had far more when we’ve struggled to look cohesive going forward. We also tend to look awful if you know who isn’t playing. For me not the sign of a brilliantly coached side.
Also concur that we have no real identity. If Bruno plays well we have a good chance but that’s pretty much who we are.
Yes and no. It's the biggest win any team has recorded , but plenty of teams have run up the score this season. Tottenham did it to us 1-6. Liverpool won 7-0. The 9-0 is great for our goals scored statistic for sure but we wouldn't be in dire straits. Make it a 4-0 win instead of 9-0 and we'd still be joint top for total goals scored.
 

Olecurls99

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:lol: Just to clarify: I'm not suggesting we hire Rodgers. I'm just using him as an example against this idea that no manager apart from Klopp/Pep could potentially be an improvement over Ole.
Ed Woodward : Well Wompy we've decided to go against the great traditions of this club and hire you as our director of football. Now what do you make of our manager?

Wompy : Well the attack, defense and midfield are all crap. I know we've had 6 years of unparalleled success but there's no style and it's too inconsistent. We need a manager to take us forward and give us a style. Someone like Brendan Rodgers or Julian Nagelsmann.

Woodward : OK, will I go out and get Rodgers?

Wompy : Absolutely not.

Woodward : Wompy my head hurts
 

Womp

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But it's you who brought Liverpool's injury points not anyone else here. You were the one who said Ole is lucky Liverpool have suffered injuries when the other poster also corrected you that you are just overexagerating their injuries. Liverpool for the past 2 months have played with their full strength side bar their CBs and yet their form has been horrendous. And also Matip has been an injury prone defender (played just 9 games last season in the league) . So shouldn't klopp have strengthed their defense rather than spending money on LB and Thiago. Why couldn't he play the two new defenders he has bought than playing Henderson and Fabinho there when everyone knows Henderson in mf is much better. How does Klopp's mismanagement make Ole or other manager's lucky.

Also, how does playing pogba in a league game equivalent to Klopp playing Jota in a meaningless less group stage game. You are now just making weird points. We get it you don't like Ole but why resort to weird points. It's like me saying only reason Liverpool won the league last season was because they were lucky Pep lost players due to injuries.
You said this
“Secondly, let's not be ridiculous, the only reason we are ahead of Liverpool is because we have been lucky as feck with injuries, Liverpool have been absolutely fecked with them”
So I think it kind of is the point raised, making excuses for Liverpool to downplay what’s been done at United.

considering Oles “absolute refusal to make a sub” we’re not doing bad with our ‘luck’ in not picking up many injuries
How exactly is it being exaggerated? They lost their first, second and third choice defenders as well as lost their best goalkeeper for a significant amount of time. That then resulted in their two best/most important midfielders having to play out of position in defence. It would genuinely be the equivalent of Bruno and Pogba being played in defence. The reasoning for why the players were lost isn't the point here. If you think Klopp is at fault for that, all power to you, that's not what is being discussed here. I also don't care what they should or shouldn't have spent money on, we aren't discussing transfers. Once again, regardless of what you think the reasoning for the players being out is doesn't concern me, fact of the matter was that they were.

Also no, it's not ridiculous to bring Pogba into it, because for the most part, Ole has had ample opportunity to rest him. He spent a significant sum on VDB in the summer and has not incorporated him in at all. Couple that with his refusal to make subs until the 88th minute and you are asking for potential muscular injuries.

The only example you're providing is Jota, who isn't even in a defender. When in reality, I think we both know losing Jota is nowhere near as important as losing their midfield, defence and GK.

PS: being critical of someone doesn't mean I don't like him. That's some childish shite. I love Ole as much as any other united fan, but I ain't going to blindly support someone I don't think is up to it.
 
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Womp

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Ed Woodward : Well Wompy we've decided to go against the great traditions of this club and hire you as our director of football. Now what do you make of our manager?

Wompy : Well the attack, defense and midfield are all crap. I know we've had 6 years of unparalleled success but there's no style and it's too inconsistent. We need a manager to take us forward and give us a style. Someone like Brendan Rodgers or Julian Nagelsmann.

Woodward : OK, will I go out and get Rodgers?

Wompy : Absolutely not.
3 years of unparalleled success, that's worthy of a laughing emoji. Ole is coming off his last 3 years at Molde without a trophy and 2 years at United without a trophy. He's a year away from 6 years of no success!
 

Zlatan 7

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How exactly is it being exaggerated? They lost their first, second and third choice defenders as well as lost their best goalkeeper for a significant amount of time. That then resulted in their two best/most important midfielders having to play out of position in defence. It would genuinely be the equivalent of Bruno and Pogba being played in defence. The reasoning for why the players were lost isn't the point here. If you think Klopp is at fault for that, all power to you, that's not what is being discussed here. I also don't care what they should or shouldn't have spent money on, we aren't discussing transfers. Once again, regardless of what you think the reasoning for the players being out is doesn't concern me, fact of the matter was that they were.

Also no, it's not ridiculous to bring Pogba into it, because for the most part, Ole has had ample opportunity to rest him. He spent a significant sum on VDB in the summer and has not incorporated him in at all. Couple that with his refusal to make subs until the 88th minute and you are asking for potential muscular injuries.

The only example you're providing is Jota, who isn't even in a defender. When in reality, I think we both know losing Jota is nowhere near as important as losing their midfield, defence and GK.

PS: being critical of someone doesn't mean I don't like him. That's some childish shite. I love Ole as much as any other united fan, but I ain't going to blindly support someone I don't think is up to it.
The exaggeration is strong in this one
 

Womp

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The exaggeration is strong in this one
Their two most important midfielders are Henderson and Fabinho. They literally won the league and CL with them being arguably the most effective midfield in England/Europe. They are also extremely important to their press and ability to win the ball back, crucial to their play.

Bruno and Pogba are just as crucial to our play, so how would that be any different. We would be losing our two most important midfielders, just as they did.

It's very clear you have no further points to add and that we obviously aren't going to change eachother's minds, so I'll leave it here
 

Raven

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SAF's approach would have resulted in him hiring the appropriate coaches to ensure his side can build a proper identity. Ole has done nothing in regards to staff recruitment to suggest he is even interested in going down this route. If I was to see this, I'd be more than happy to give him time.

As of now though, I'm against giving him until the end of next season because simply put he's shown nothing to suggest it will be anything apart from a waste of time. If we keep being nice to managers simply because they're nice and are giving it a proper try, we will be stuck in this rut for longer than 10 years.

Rodgers did well with Liverpool, they could have stuck around and gave him another shot, but they found a better opportunity and were ruthless and benefited from it.
How long did it take Fergie to win us a trophy? How long did we go without a PL title when he came in? You're not even giving Ole a chance and I really can't understand why. You've seen that we're one of the best chance creating teams in the league, we're top scorers and we have a great young squad which is a couple of players short of completing the puzzle.

There is no manager available to us that is as good as Klopp, not even close, if there was, I would agree and say get him at all costs. You're suggesting people like Nagelsmann and Rodgers when in reality they're no better than Ole and have achieved nothing in their careers (I don't count winning the Scottish league with Celtic as an achievement).

At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter what you want. Ole will keep his job as long as he comes in the top 4, as he should and he'll get next season to see can he bring us to the next level, as he should.
 

Sweet Square

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There is no manager available to us that is as good as Klopp, not even close, if there was, I would agree and say get him at all costs.
Worth pointing out as well that the first 3 years under Klopp Liverpool finished 8th(Lower than under Rodgers management), 4th and 4th again. The Ole out people would have been demanding Klopp be sacked if they were Pool fans.

Klopp is great example against their argument.
 

Olecurls99

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All without context, let's break this down.

Consistency: This season we have won 13 out of 23. It's quite interesting you don't mention all the draws or bring any context to all the wins which myself, and others on here, were claiming weren't sustainable due to the football being played. We are averaging a win percentage of 56%, even if we overlook the unsustainable results. The previous two winners, in the previous two years, when they weren't decimated by injuries etc. won the league with a 84% win percentage. That is the level/consistency we are competing with.

Our attackers: Let's have a look at quality of chances created to justify our position and if it's sustainable. Our XG is below both City and Liverpool. There was a time when moments of brilliance from Bruno, Rashford and Pogba was going to dwindle, it's moments like that throughout the season where team play, positioning, attacking patterns etc. are most important. That's where this team comes up short. It's why we are beginning to fall off - it simply wasn't sustainable, which is the whole point here. Sterling was looking shite a few weeks ago, but was still running a muck, purely because of how consistently City open up defences. When our players look off it, the game is fecking terrible and we can't break teams down. The main reason for that being we rely far more on individual brilliance. I agree with you though, we are capable of scoring a lot of goals, because simply put, I feel we have a far better squad than people give us credit for. I just don't think this manager is getting the most out of them.

City have only scored 6 goals less, are maintaining a higher XG (which should even up as the season goes on) and have had considerably less penalties (they're also shite at taking them)

Defence: Why exactly are we cutting out the first 3 games? Should we cut out the Southampton game, where we played against a 9 man B team as well? That would make your attacking point look worse than it is. You can't pick and choose which numbers you want to incorporate. You can't use context for United but not for Southampton.

On to your next point - the fact of the matter is, Ole has spent 150 fecking million on a defence almost, and it's still not good enough. There are 10 teams in the EPL that have conceded less goals than us. Fecking 10. We have spent 150m on our defence with Ole alone.

Funny how things can look without context.
- So you're not impressed with 2 league losses out of 40 since Bruno eh. That seems strange to me. Yes we did draw some of those games but it is still an impressive statistic in any context. By the way City and Liverpool have dropped more points in that period. We're not up against City '19 or Liverpool' 20. We're competing with the current teams and since Bruno came in we've outperformed them.

- We simply do not have as good a squad as CityPool. The reason they have won the league is because they have had by far and away the best players. If you take anything from this take that. We're 2-3 players off them. Thankfully Liverpool are missing 2 players so we're looking on a par with them now. Further to this, losing 2 of your starters is not a decimation. Liverpool are playing with 9 of the players that never got injured last year and won the league. That was the real fluke. Having the same team available over and over again. Fabinho looks a good centre half to me by the way so don't exaggerate their injuries.

- Do CityPool never score goals with individual brilliance? If we have invented some new individually brilliance tactic then I think Ole should be lauded for it.

- xG me arse. Stop with the xG thing. We've scored the most goals. Be happy. If CityPool are so great at opening up defenses with their super stylish coaches then how come we've scored more goals then them. Oh yeah, individual brilliance. Why weren't our guys so individually brilliant for Jose?

- I've watched CityPool struggle to break teams down over the years and guess why. Because it's really hard to break down a well organised team. CityPool have been struggling just as much as us even with their super stylish coaches.

- City have had 1 fewer penalty. We have scored 6 more goals. I don't know why you want to belittle your own team so much.

- We're cutting out the first 3 games because it was essentially our pre season. Southampton played us for 88 minutes with 10 men because they had a player sent off. Sending offs happen in football. It's not the same thing. I'm sure CityPool have played against 10 men. And please don't say it was their B team. You're better than that Wompy.

- I can guarantee you that City have spent a lot more than 150 million on their defense. Let me check. 400 million. That's right. 400 million for Pep the super genius coach. Oh if only we had a coach with his ability to conjure up untold riches. He's a tactical mastermind.

How about 400 million quid for context?
 
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MinGin

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In what universe are those two circumstances even remotely comparable? Now you're just clutching at straws. Klopp has managed to win Liverpool their first title in god knows how long, against a very good City side. The team has been decimated with injuries this season. I'd argue they're still playing quite good football too - which are signs they will unfortunately get through this eventually.

Ole's circumstances with United could not be further from that truth. He's been here 2 years, has spent a feck tonne of money, hasn't won a single trophy and still looks a million miles away from getting this team looking like they're ready to win the title.

Klopp has earnt some further time - he's proven that with time, he can get things right. He's done it at major clubs at the past, he's done it at the current club he's at.
Base on transfermarkt, the spending of Klopp until he got the first trophy was 435.9M (15-16, 16-17, 17-18 & 18-19) and Guardiola (16-17, & 17-18) was 532.5M. Ole spent 310.3M until now, there is left at least 1-2 top class player in terms of transfer fee. Also, Klopp buy and try at least 17 players and Guardiola at least 11 players for his first trophy , If said top class manager also needed that such large money, numbers of player and long period to rebuild and retransform their team to decent team, formation and philosophy, why are you blame Ole in a half product team and dead fire of strikers season but with highest score up to now?
 
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roonster09

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"Southampton B team", all the twists to just make your point :lol:

And somehow we have to believe these posters will give time for manager if they see something to justify that.
 

Polar

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On to your next point - the fact of the matter is, Ole has spent 150 fecking million on a defence almost, and it's still not good enough. There are 10 teams in the EPL that have conceded less goals than us. Fecking 10. We have spent 150m on our defence with Ole alone.
Rebuilding in 2019 was a different thing price wise compared with 2012-2017. Prices became more and more Crazy. How much would the rebuilding of Pep and Klopp have costed in 2019?

Yes Ole has spent a lot of money, but the number lies in a comparative perspective.Ole has so fare not added as many players as Liverpool and City did during their turnover. And that is what really matters, isn’t it?
 
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Bebestation

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People acting like 150 million is alot these days :lol:

Can barely buy you a single player.

He has bought one CB for half that price - arguably in an area we didnt have a single top class CB since Rio & Vidic.

How much did Pep spend on CBs alone to get it right :lol:

Our 150 million is arguably half on one CB, one RB and a cover for LB.

We still have to replace our partnering CB and we could arguably find a replacement for Bailly aswell because our squad is that bad from the previous squad building that ex managers had.
 

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All without context, let's break this down.

Consistency: This season we have won 13 out of 23. It's quite interesting you don't mention all the draws or bring any context to all the wins which myself, and others on here, were claiming weren't sustainable due to the football being played. We are averaging a win percentage of 56%, even if we overlook the unsustainable results. The previous two winners, in the previous two years, when they weren't decimated by injuries etc. won the league with a 84% win percentage. That is the level/consistency we are competing with.

Our attackers: Let's have a look at quality of chances created to justify our position and if it's sustainable. Our XG is below both City and Liverpool. There was a time when moments of brilliance from Bruno, Rashford and Pogba was going to dwindle, it's moments like that throughout the season where team play, positioning, attacking patterns etc. are most important. That's where this team comes up short. It's why we are beginning to fall off - it simply wasn't sustainable, which is the whole point here. Sterling was looking shite a few weeks ago, but was still running a muck, purely because of how consistently City open up defences. When our players look off it, the game is fecking terrible and we can't break teams down. The main reason for that being we rely far more on individual brilliance. I agree with you though, we are capable of scoring a lot of goals, because simply put, I feel we have a far better squad than people give us credit for. I just don't think this manager is getting the most out of them.

City have only scored 6 goals less, are maintaining a higher XG (which should even up as the season goes on) and have had considerably less penalties (they're also shite at taking them)

Defence: Why exactly are we cutting out the first 3 games? Should we cut out the Southampton game, where we played against a 9 man B team as well? That would make your attacking point look worse than it is. You can't pick and choose which numbers you want to incorporate. You can't use context for United but not for Southampton.

On to your next point - the fact of the matter is, Ole has spent 150 fecking million on a defence almost, and it's still not good enough. There are 10 teams in the EPL that have conceded less goals than us. Fecking 10. We have spent 150m on our defence with Ole alone.

Funny how things can look without context.
No offense, but this reads like it was written on rawk. 80+ win rate is absurd and will propably never be replicated.

And since you love context. The calendar year 2020 we had a 63% win rate, Fergie in his entire tenure had 59,8.

We are neck and neck with both City and Pool in chances created and shots taken. Pretty impressive for a PE teacher. City get away with it because they have a squad depth we only can dream about. If Sterling is in shite form they can throw on Foden, Mahrez, Gundogan etc. We dont have that luxury.

Also this idea that our goals come from "individual brilliance" where as when other teams score its down to coaching and "patterns" is just desperate bollocks and mental gymnastics. I see this all the time, but where is the fecking evidence? Do we only score screamers or worldies where our attackers dribble through defense on their own?

Yes defense is a cocern, much of it is down to having a nervy no1 who brings that nervousness to his defenders. We spent money on defense because we fecking had to. We have not had a proper RB in ages and were also desperate for a new CB. Klopp have spent more and Pep have spent about as much as us and Pool combined. More context for you: Pep had spent more net on defense alone than Ole has spent net since he came on the entire squad. Also consider that Pep came into a team that had been groomed for him for years where as we were a complete mess
 

roonster09

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Also this idea that our goals come from "individual brilliance" where as when other teams score its down to coaching and "patterns" is just desperate bollocks and mental gymnastics
I saw someone said the goal we scored vs West Ham was down to individual brilliance. Proper weird take that one.
 

anant

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Of all the arguments that are used to bash Ole this season, I find "Pool have injuries" argument the most hypocritical.

Last season, we were arguably having as bad an injury crisis as they were - Pog, the only creative outlet, missed close to two-thirds of the season, Martial and Rashford - our only established attackers missed 2 months out, McT had injuries, Matic was coming back from one as well IIRC.

I don't remember these posters saying Ole should be cut some slack because we had too many injuries. Instead, we blamed for not demanding for more players/ not managing players well and all that.
 

Amir

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Worth pointing out as well that the first 3 years under Klopp Liverpool finished 8th(Lower than under Rodgers management), 4th and 4th again. The Ole out people would have been demanding Klopp be sacked if they were Pool fans.

Klopp is great example against their argument.
No, he is not a great example against their argument. Because Liverpool fans would have had rightly had lower expectations, considering their club just doesn't have the same financial resources as some of their rivals.

People here have been looking at Klopp's achievements thinking: Yeah, it was expected, less than this would have been a failure. No, I would say he over achieved compared with what people thought he would do when he was appointed.
 

Raven

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Worth pointing out as well that the first 3 years under Klopp Liverpool finished 8th(Lower than under Rodgers management), 4th and 4th again. The Ole out people would have been demanding Klopp be sacked if they were Pool fans.

Klopp is great example against their argument.
Good point. Some people are just stubborn as fecking mules.
 

AltiUn

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No exaggeration Henderson and Fabinho at the back is like us putting Bruno and Pogba there.

Mate I think that's a big exaggeration.
It'd be like us putting Matic and McTominay there, basically.
 

Mickson

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No, because SAF's best attribute was his ability to identify changes in the game and adapt. If we're going to be brutally honest though, even SAF struggled against Pep and his style historically. SAF would have adapted - evidenced by his hiring of Carlos etc. in the past. Let's not start comparing Ole to SAF. Not to add, no matter how good a coach is - times change. Mourinho for a period was untouchable as a manager, now his approach and ideology is outdated. The game has changed.

I also don't agree. He won what? 3 titles in his time there? Also Molde have been doing about as good, if not better since he left. I will say that it was an impressive feat that he won them their first title in however long it was. Given the competitiveness of the league and the circumstances, I don't think it was that impressive all together, though, no. Before he joined us as interim, he was coming off his third year in a row with Molde without winning a trophy iirc, that's hardly 'doing well'
Molde has the biggest budget in Norway and wasn't even doing that great before Ole left (although he won them the first titles) and improved without him. The Norwegian league is like League One. So in perspective, he won League One with the team that has the highest budget. In the context of being a Man United manager, that's not particularly impressive.
 

romufc

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The 9-0 surely massively skews some of those stats. In theory we could have gone on not to score a single goal in the following 7 matches and the boast “we’re averaging at least a goal a game” would be true.

Yes we’ve had high scoring games but we’ve had far more when we’ve struggled to look cohesive going forward. We also tend to look awful if you know who isn’t playing. For me not the sign of a brilliantly coached side.
Also concur that we have no real identity. If Bruno plays well we have a good chance but that’s pretty much who we are.
Okay, can you show us how those stats are skewed? Also while you are at it take away the 6 goals we conceded against Spurs too as that can skew stats as well.

We look awful if Bruno isnt playing? I guess we were awful against Leipzig at home and Liverpool at home? We lost both games and played badly right?

Also, if Bruno plays well we have a good chance of winning? So that would indicate we have lost more games than won? Bruno had a dip in form in January but we still won games? How are we second then?
 

romufc

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Molde has the biggest budget in Norway and wasn't even doing that great before Ole left (although he won them the first titles) and improved without him. The Norwegian league is like League One. So in perspective, he won League One with the team that has the highest budget. In the context of being a Man United manager, that's not particularly impressive.
Jose, LVG also had one of the biggest budgets in the PL. They didn't get us in a title race, well LVG only got us in a top 4 race.
 

Kajus

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Bloody hell, what do they drink there in Australia :lol: :lol: It’s been a while since I’ve seen such a poor argument
 

Womp

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No offense, but this reads like it was written on rawk. 80+ win rate is absurd and will propably never be replicated.

And since you love context. The calendar year 2020 we had a 63% win rate, Fergie in his entire tenure had 59,8.

We are neck and neck with both City and Pool in chances created and shots taken. Pretty impressive for a PE teacher. City get away with it because they have a squad depth we only can dream about. If Sterling is in shite form they can throw on Foden, Mahrez, Gundogan etc. We dont have that luxury.

Also this idea that our goals come from "individual brilliance" where as when other teams score its down to coaching and "patterns" is just desperate bollocks and mental gymnastics. I see this all the time, but where is the fecking evidence? Do we only score screamers or worldies where our attackers dribble through defense on their own?

Yes defense is a cocern, much of it is down to having a nervy no1 who brings that nervousness to his defenders. We spent money on defense because we fecking had to. We have not had a proper RB in ages and were also desperate for a new CB. Klopp have spent more and Pep have spent about as much as us and Pool combined. More context for you: Pep had spent more net on defense alone than Ole has spent net since he came on the entire squad. Also consider that Pep came into a team that had been groomed for him for years where as we were a complete mess
Since I really cannot be fecked responding to everyone's posts individually, I'll just respond to yours.

To start, the 80% win rate really isn't absurd, you're just living under a rock. Let's assess the last few EPL wins, shall we, since Pep and Klopp etc. joined. 16-17 was won with a 79% win percentage, 17-18 was won with a 84% win percentage, 2018-19 was won with a 84% win percentage so too was 2019-20. That's 4 consecutive years of 80 or so or above win percentage to win the league. It's not absurd, it's what's required to top the quality of coaching in this country with Pep and Klopp.

We are neck and neck with City and Liverpool for chances and goals, you're right. Where I disagree is the quality of said chances. We are scoring goals with a substantially less XG than those two teams. It is/was an anomaly. Which explains the whole individual brilliance schitk. We aren't scoring from places on the pitch/movements that usually result in goals as consistently as those teams. I wonder why that is.

That also explains how fecking drab we look when we can't score a goal forcing the opposition team to open up. Also, even without stats, you simply need to watch us play to see the difference in quality. It has nothing at all to do with personnel. City and Liverpool at their best can look as good as they do because there is a system which improves the players collectively. You compare that to us, terribly unorganised pressing, extremely slow and lethargic passing, predictable or lack of movement off the ball. Those are things that are taught, has nothing to do with the personnel.

Also, your point on City's squad depth is laughable. Claiming what I write seems like it's from Rawk, but then you go onto claim that if Sterling is shite they have all these players. For starters, Foden would play with Sterling, not as a back up to and Gundogan doesn't even play in the positions they do. It was a ridiculous take. That's like claiming our squad depth is so good because if Rashford is shite we can play Scotty. If anything, our squad depth is hardly something to laugh at. We have Martial, Rashford, Cavani, Greenwood, Bruno, Pogba, Daniel James, VDB, Amad (when and if he plays) etc. for 4 positions potentially.

You're right, we did have to spend money on the defence, that's fine. What isn't fine, is spending 150m on the defence and having the 10th best defence in the league. We have a worse defensive record than a Liverpool team playing with midfielders in defence who are supposedly having a terrible season. Arsenal, Villa, West Ham etc. just to name a few have a better defensive record than us. Fecking Arsenal. After we spent 150m on the defence.

Finally you're contradicting yourself. You can't claim that City's squad was being groomed for years and then talk about how much money he spent to change up his squad. Which one is it? Could it maybe just be that the serial trophy winner, who has just broken the record for consecutive wins in EPL history is just a better coach than Ole?

Also re my point on the injuries. I don't understand why people keep mentioning our injuries last season? I was critical of Ole at times last season but I was hardly calling for his head, I acknowledged he would need time. The difference is, at full strength, Klopp has won Liverpool the CL and the EPL. At full strength, Ole in 2 years has won us feck all.

Also my last point: and the most important one, I don't know why people keep quoting transfer fees and spend to me. I don't give a shite how much Klopp and Pep spent. You could see the fruits of what they were trying to implement even when their squads needed major surgery. Klopp's Pool were gegenpressing like their lives depended on it and Pep's teams were passing you into the ground. We do none of those things. It's not about personnel, it's about style. They spent heaps on players, you're right, but they earnt the right to do so by illustrating what they were implementing and having a history to show for it.
 
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Mickson

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Jose, LVG also had one of the biggest budgets in the PL. They didn't get us in a title race, well LVG only got us in a top 4 race.
Yeah, but it's quite different in smaller leagues because the concurrence isn't that high. That's why Malmo are dominating in Sweden now, they managed to grab all the money from Europe and although they are playing like shit, they still won the league with ease last year because they are a step ahead financially and have by far the best squad. It was just a perspective into it. You can't really do more than win, and he did that. But I wouldn't say it's impressive. The fact is that Ole is unproven as hell. He has done a decent job at United rebuilding and so on, but he's still unproven and without clear results in titles. Personally, I'm not THAT bothered by the lack of titles, if I see development I'm good with that, people here called Klopp a serial loser and see what happened. I just don't see that clear development in our play, I guess I want a coach that has a clear identity. Hopefully, Ole will get us where we want but I can't see it.
 

Zlatan 7

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Since I really cannot be fecked responding to everyone's posts individually, I'll just respond to yours.

To start, the 80% win rate really isn't absurd, you're just living under a rock. Let's assess the last few EPL wins, shall we, since Pep and Klopp etc. joined. 16-17 was won with a 79% win percentage, 17-18 was won with a 84% win percentage, 2018-19 was won with a 84% win percentage so too was 2019-20. That's 4 consecutive years of 80 or so or above win percentage to win the league. It's not absurd, it's what's required to top the quality of coaching in this country with Pep and Klopp.

We are neck and neck with City and Liverpool for chances and goals, you're right. Where I disagree is the quality of said chances. We are scoring goals with a substantially less XG than those two teams. It is/was an anomaly. Which explains the whole individual brilliance schitk. We aren't scoring from places on the pitch/movements that usually result in goals as consistently as those teams. I wonder why that is.

That also explains how fecking drab we look when we can't score a goal forcing the opposition team to open up. Also, even without stats, you simply need to watch us play to see the difference in quality. It has nothing at all to do with personnel. City and Liverpool at their best can look as good as they do because there is a system which improves the players collectively. You compare that to us, terribly unorganised pressing, extremely slow and lethargic passing, predictable or lack of movement off the ball. Those are things that are taught, has nothing to do with the personnel.

Also, your point on City's squad depth is laughable. Claiming what I write seems like it's from Rawk, but then you go onto claim that if Sterling is shite they have all these players. For starters, Foden would play with Sterling, not as a back up to and Gundogan doesn't even play in the positions they do. It was a ridiculous take. That's like claiming our squad depth is so good because if Rashford is shite we can play Scotty. If anything, our squad depth is hardly something to laugh at. We have Martial, Rashford, Cavani, Greenwood, Bruno, Pogba, Daniel James, VDB, Amad (when and if he plays) etc. for 4 positions potentially.

You're right, we did have to spend money on the defence, that's fine. What isn't fine, is spending 150m on the defence and having the 10th best defence in the league. We have a worse defensive record than a Liverpool team playing with midfielders in defence who are supposedly having a terrible season. Arsenal, Villa, West Ham etc. just to name a few have a better defensive record than us. Fecking Arsenal. After we spent 150m on the defence.

Finally you're contradicting yourself. You can't claim that City's squad was being groomed for years and then talk about how much money he spent to change up his squad. Which one is it? Could it maybe just be that the serial trophy winner, who has just broken the record for consecutive wins in EPL history is just a better coach than Ole?

Also re my point on the injuries. I don't understand why people keep mentioning our injuries last season? I was critical of Ole at times last season but I was hardly calling for his head, I acknowledged he would need time. The difference is, at full strength, Klopp has won Liverpool the CL and the EPL. At full strength, Ole in 2 years has won us feck all.
You can’t be serious. In the very same paragraph, not even post, you agree that we had injuries and needed time last season but then have a go for not winning anything the last two years.

I can’t really be bothered to go through the rest of your post, same as you can’t be bothered to reply to posts picking up on your ridiculous comparisons and claims.
 

Womp

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You can’t be serious. In the very same paragraph, not even post, you agree that we had injuries and needed time last season but then have a go for not winning anything the last two years.

I can’t really be bothered to go through the rest of your post, same as you can’t be bothered to reply to posts picking up on your ridiculous comparisons and claims.
You completely miss my point. Klopp is coming off TWO consecutive years where he has won the CL and PL, before this injury ridden season. That's the whole point here. He has proven he has what it takes. Ole, even with arguably luck of the draw with injuries this season - has got us knocked out of the CL and is falling behind a City team who have also been dealt a shite hand with injuries at rapid pace.

No-one was calling for his head last season due to the injuries and needing time. What is the excuse this season?

Also re your point on not responding to people's posts: I really just can't be fecked responding to 7 posts all saying the same thing in different ways. Apologies.
 

Zlatan 7

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You completely miss my point. Klopp is coming off TWO consecutive years where he has won the CL and PL, before this injury ridden season. That's the whole point here. He has proven he has what it takes. Ole, even with arguably luck of the draw with injuries this season - has got us knocked out of the CL and is falling behind a City team who have also been dealt a shite hand with injuries at rapid pace.

No-one was calling for his head last season due to the injuries and needing time. What is the excuse this season?

Also re your point on not responding to people's posts: I really just can't be fecked responding to 7 posts all saying the same thing in different ways. Apologies.
But it’s still Ole’s second full season, he has another 2 to go and money to spend before you can make that same comparison with klopp. Unless you’re comparing with klopps first two seasons where he was being called a bluffer for losing so many finals
 

Womp

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But it’s still Ole’s second full season, he has another 2 to go and money to spend before you can make that same comparison with klopp. Unless you’re comparing with klopps first two seasons where he was being called a bluffer for losing so many finals
You're right. I think you all misunderstand me in this point. I would be more than happy to give Ole time, if I saw enough to suggest he could get us playing the football required to top the big two in the league. Heck, I'd be willing to give him time if he acknowledged his shortcomings as a coach (something all coaches have) and hire the respective coaching staff to help him. There is no shame in admitting you aren't of the same coaching level as a Klopp or Pep. Especially when by now it's quite clear that Ole is a very good man manager.

SAF acknowledged his weaknesses, masked them with Carlos etc. in the past.

You're also right, Klopp also did struggle the first two years - but you could see what he was implementing, you could see they were here for the long run and building something special. I unfortunately, as much as I want to, currently don't see that with Ole. I really don't think our football has improved all that much since he came in. We are still an incredibly deadly time on the break, but still look absolutely lost for ideas when trying to break teams down.
 
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