Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion

[Tom Cato]

It does scale accurately with results though. There is 30 plus years of data that backs that up.

It doesnt scale accurately, it scales within a broad percentile, but you're ignoring a key variable which is team status and wage structure. A Donny Van De Beek is not 40% better than a Manuel Lanzini because the wage structure of the club says its so.

The starting XI yesterday had 1 player who should be starting matches, Jadon Sancho, the rest are squad players and rotational substitutes

There are more than 3 football clubs that the top4 clubs can lose to. But to follow your argument, the team that your statistic refer to did beat this lot a few days ago, even with the eager assistance of the ref not to.

 

[Tom Cato]

I agree to an extent, but more games will not give Mata and Matic their legs back. Both still have intelligent brains but tire and where younger players games build their fitness. These two it has the opposite effect. They are getting older and you cannot stop that.

I'm confused, are you saying that players like Mata and Matic start the season with one level of fitness and it slowly deteriorates over the season?

I'm mostly confused because I'm an athlete and I have several peak points during my season.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Mata probably the exception because he’s going to be a coach or something and it’s probably more commercial that for football reasons I give you that. I’m actually not sure why we even keep Mata as he’s been shot for a couple of seasons but I disagree with Matic I think he still has a role to play and I 100% would have played him last night.

Matic was great when he came on at West Ham at the weekend and made the Lingard goal. He seems to be a one half player now. Just think Ole is going to have to decide which half. I would have left Lingard on. Think he can produce a goal out of nothing. I also agree that Mata will probably end up on the coaching staff, but if that is the case, why didn't they just do that instead of keeping him on the playing staff. Presume he cannot until he has passed his badges (see I am answering my own questions now).

 

[Mickson]

Mata probably the exception because he’s going to be a coach or something and it’s probably more commercial that for football reasons I give you that. I’m actually not sure why we even keep Mata as he’s been shot for a couple of seasons but I disagree with Matic I think he still has a role to play and I 100% would have played him last night.

Matic is our only DM, and since Ole has decided not to strengthen the midfield, he is absolutely right in keeping Matic (and playing him quite often). Mata though... absolutely pointless.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

I'm confused, are you saying that players like Mata and Matic start the season with one level of fitness and it slowly deteriorates over the season?

I'm mostly confused because I'm an athlete and I have several peak points during my season.

I think they will gain fitness, but cannot always play a whole game. They are useful, but Mata as I have said elsewhere is intelligent, but can get overrun by a pressing team. Matic does tire in games, no matter what stage of the season it is. He's bound to.

 

[Skills]

Feels like we're in a bit of a rock and a hard place with Ole. At this point, it almost feels like we can't afford to have him fail with the amount invested in him - in terms of money, time and mainly emotional energy. It's been a draining few years for our fanbase telling the football world, they're all wrong and he's actually a savant/second coming of Fergie/look at Klopps record when he started etc.

 

[Deery]

Matic was great when he came on at West Ham at the weekend and made the Lingard goal. He seems to be a one half player now. Just think Ole is going to have to decide which half. I would have left Lingard on. Think he can produce a goal out of nothing. I also agree that Mata will probably end up on the coaching staff, but if that is the case, why didn't they just do that instead of keeping him on the playing staff. Presume he cannot until he has passed his badges (see I am answering my own questions now).

Yeah I would have done much the same but I think we are in agreement that the starting 11 was more or less spot on except for the Mata for Elanga which has some strange circumstances around it football wise or not.

 

[Tom Cato]

Feels like we're in a bit of a rock and a hard place with Ole. At this point, it almost feels like we can't afford to have him fail with the amount invested in him - in terms of money, time and mainly emotional energy. It's been a draining few years for our fanbase telling the football world, they're all wrong and he's actually a savant/second coming of Fergie/look at Klopps record when he started etc.

The only draining thing for me is the constant bickering between fans who feel entitled and fans who want continuity, coupled with the constant overreaction to every little thing

 

[mav_9me]

Giving martial game time is a massive indictment on Ole. I would rather play with Lingard upfront.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

The only draining thing for me is the constant bickering between fans who feel entitled and fans who want continuity, coupled with the constant overreaction to every little thing

I understand you want continuity, but when does that end and success start? If we get a DM next season will you say he has everything to win and if he doesn't then the spotlight will have to go onto him. He has to start winning sometime. Otherwise it will be just spending money for nothing.

 

[Focusmate]

If I look at our team/squad now, and compare it to the line up under Mourinho or LVG, we have strengthened massively and whoever (eventually) takes over from Ole will have a stronger line up to start.
Ive always been Ole in, but this season needs to deliver silverware. Top 4 only would not be good enough for me - at that stage Id reluctantly move on and hire to take that final push to winning again.
(Its unacceptable to me to win nothing since Mourinho’s first season so we need to end that run)

 

[Rash Decision]

Would a player like Haaland more likely join United to join Ole next year (maybe even January this year since that's when his clause kicks) - or someone like Conte or whoever is on the fans minds at the minute?

Zidane is looking PSG bound imo.

I have no idea how Ole has managed to target and get so many good players. City don't have a striker so maybe Haaland will move to there since Pep has said that he will leave also.

However, If the answer is Ole - It's why I don't mind one more major transfer window.

Not really to give Ole another chance to win trophies, but for us to get a striker like Haaland and midfielders like whoever that maybe. He gets good players and I feel like we could do with a bit more before we go out finding that manager that tries blending it all together.


Just a bit scared that if We go for the trophy winning manager too soon that they will be able to cover up some gaps tactically rather than with a quality player (something Ole can't do) - which leaves us with gaps that might elongate with time.

If the coach is good enough to compensate for player shortcomings, that’s great no? Rather than aiming to have the best player in every position, which is far more expensive and impractical. And then if we get that player on top of that, we’ll be in for a good time.

And I doubt players are flocking here to play under Ole. The players he has targeted aren’t exactly unknowns who turned out to be gems either. Ole might be a pull factor for Haaland, but a great coach might also be one.

 

[Desert Eagle]

It doesnt scale accurately, it scales within a broad percentile, but you're ignoring a key variable which is team status and wage structure. A Donny Van De Beek is not 40% better than a Manuel Lanzini because the wage structure of the club says its so.

The starting XI yesterday had 1 player who should be starting matches, Jadon Sancho, the rest are squad players and rotational substitutes

There are more than 3 football clubs that the top4 clubs can lose to. But to follow your argument, the team that your statistic refer to did beat this lot a few days ago, even with the eager assistance of the ref not to.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/23311886.2018.1457423

https://www.sportingintelligence.co...-wage-bill-in-the-nfl-its-14-per-cent-160801/

https://www.scribd.com/document/315...rom-a-Comparative-Perspective-Forrest-Simmons

A Dvb might not be better than Lanzini individually but the team Dvb plays for is much more likely to win the game because it can afford to pay players like dvb 40% more. Like I said the data and studies have been out for decades now.

The starting 11 yesterday had Lingard who was literally West Hans star player just a few months ago. That should illustrate the difference in quality between the two teams.

What is my argument that you are replying to?

That we should have won yesterday?
That we played a strong team?
That we could have started some kids?
That wages and transfer money strongly correlate with success on the pitch?

 

[Skills]

The only draining thing for me is the constant bickering between fans who prioritise on field success and fans who probably have severe daddy issues that they project with their unhealthy obsession for continuity in the club managers role

^Some could say that's another way of framing it. Not me though obviously, because that would be petty and reductionist. But all depends on which view you're looking from.

 

[Tom Cato]

^Some could say that's another way of framing it. Not me though obviously, because that would be petty and reductionist. But all depends on which view you're looking from.

I'd appreciate it if you did not falsequote me with this childish crap.

 

[georgipep]

Well yeah, he was also screaming the same thing at him in the Newcastle game the other week, to which he completely ignored the instructions. Lingard got subbed off for that performance and was sent to West Ham for 6 months. Martial needs the same treatment because he isn't improving at United.

I never caught that neither yesterday nor against Newcastle. And if there is a good loan opportunity I'm all for it but I doubt it.

 

[Garethw]

He’s been in the job nearly three years. Spent nearly half a billion on new players and can now say that he has one of the very best squads in Europe. So why oh why is our play still so poor?

We get dominated by pretty much every team and make the same mistakes time and time again. Last season moments of individual brilliance managed to salvage points from losing positions. What happens when the luck runs out?

Solskjaer doesn’t have anywhere to hide this season. We have a bloody good squad now and tactically he needs to step up.

If Solskjaer is untouchable in the eyes of the board then his entire back room staff needs changing. We need coaches sitting on that bench that are tactically astute that can spoon feed Ole from a tactical sense.


On a side note, why is our play so bloody slow? Ole talks about the United way, but outside of the first 2-3 games of his tenure all I’ve seen from him is a risk averse pragmatic approach which is anything but the United way.

 

[georgipep]

We do, but you don't have to play them all at once. DVB could have played last weekend, Bailly could have come on as a sub when we were beating Newcastle, Telles could have got a half next weekend. There's no need to start them all in the same game, it's fecking bizarre.

I wouldn't trust Donny in any serious game (yet). Yesterday was a step in the right direction and Young Boys at home will, hopefully, be another.

What would be the point in putting Bailly on for 20 minutes? You don't change defenders unless necessary. It is the one position where the players need time to sync with their team mates and the match tempo.

^Some could say that's another way of framing it. Not me though obviously, because that would be petty and reductionist. But all depends on which view you're looking from.

And this is how people know you're full of bs and your opinion counts for less than nothing.

 

[Bilbo]

The only draining thing for me is the constant bickering between fans who feel entitled and fans who want continuity, coupled with the constant overreaction to every little thing

Yeah I'm not sure where the draining part comes in to it. For me, this has been the best couple of seasons by far since Ferguson. As you say the least likeable part of being a United fan is seeing the deterioration in our fanbase over time. Stopping coming on here would solve that instantly but I'm not finding it as easy as I'd like to cut the cord on somewhere I've been coming for half my life.

 

[VinzentFTW]

The best signings you can do Ole is not Galacticos, but better coaches. Carrick and McKenna aint good enough. We need to get a proper system of play where players know exactly how to move in every scenerario. A system where the reserve team play exactly like the first team. Just look at Pool. Regardess of lineup they play the same super press/tempo type of fotball. Same with City and their ball possession type of play. Not this individual brilliance BS that require world beaters in every position to work properly. Sancho will never work in his freestyle type football either.

 

[crossy1686]

I wouldn't trust Donny in any serious game (yet). Yesterday was a step in the right direction and Young Boys at home will, hopefully, be another.

What would be the point in putting Bailly on for 20 minutes? You don't change defenders unless necessary. It is the one position where the players need time to sync with their team mates and the match tempo.

And this is how people know you're full of bs and your opinion counts for less than nothing.

If we're winning comfortably and players need minutes for match fitness then throw them on. It's better for their confidence to be part of a 4-1 win than it is to be bombed out of a cup game at home to West Ham. They also have to build a connection with the players that will play in the first team. What good is pairing Bailly up with Lindelöf if they won't partner again this season? What good is it playing Lingard behind Martial if Martial isn't starting games? Why play VDB next to Matic is Matic only comes on for the last 25 minutes in a normal game? So may questions to answer.

 

[lilcurt]

If I look at our team/squad now, and compare it to the line up under Mourinho or LVG, we have strengthened massively and whoever (eventually) takes over from Ole will have a stronger line up to start.
Ive always been Ole in, but this season needs to deliver silverware. Top 4 only would not be good enough for me - at that stage Id reluctantly move on and hire to take that final push to winning again.
(Its unacceptable to me to win nothing since Mourinho’s first season so we need to end that run)

My worry is that after this season we will lose a lot of players. Potentially Donny, Pogba, Matic, Martial, Cavani, Lingard will all go.

Suddenly we don't then look too strong depth-wise.

I am in the Ole out camp as I just don't see anything from him that gives me confidence he can secure silverware or bigger picture, get us consistently winning silverware, surely that should be the expectation of any united manager?

We are wasted this season, with the best squad we have had in a decade, with Ole. I'm confident that if Conte came in now we would win atleast one of the remaining three competitions.

 

[Highfather_24]

I have a bad feeling if we fail to get the best out of a 70M signing by the end of the season, he might get sacked. Or not given much money in the transfer market, which is what happens before managers get sacked.

 

[crossy1686]

I have a bad feeling if we fail to get the best out of a 70M signing by the end of the season, he might get sacked. Or not given much money in the transfer market, which is what happens before managers get sacked.

He won't get sacked for Sancho, he's too good not to play well moving into the festive period once he's fit and has built a connection with his team mates. The concern is that he started last night, presumably for minutes, but didn't actually play alongside any first team players so he's not actually integrated into the side anymore than he was last week.

 

[OleBoiii]

One thing that just hit me:

Since Bruno arrived our PL form is roughly: 60% win, 30% draw, 10% loss. The dataset consists of 57 games, so it's more than big enough to see a general trend.

Overall, if we can just convert around 4 draws(per season) to wins instead, then we have title winning form. 70% win, 20% draw, 10% loss is around 85-88 points, depending on how you round things up. If you get this amount then you have done your job at least in isolation. You can't really do much about your rivals apart from the two measly games per season where you face each other.

I feel confident that Ronaldo, Varane and Sancho will be enough to grind out a few extra wins. It's a shame that Liverpool and Chelsea got their shit together at the same time, because I see no reason for why they can't do the same. And City is City.

 

[Revan]

Say he gets 2nd and 5 points behind. No trophies.

The unhappy fans continue to be unhappy.

Glazers do nothing.

What do they choose to do next? Do the fans go boo as their next step?

United fans won’t boo a manager even if he would relegate us.

 

[Shark]

Regardless of form Martial is not a number 9 and never has been he's a wide player. While I understand that while Cavani is out we're limited in that department at least keep Ronaldo on the bench. That's my one gripe on Ole from last night. Other players such as Sancho, Lingard and VDB should still be giving a digout in front of goal also. It's really not a good look to be toothless at home with that kind of reserve firepower and what we have in the bench.

 

[cyberman]

Say he gets 2nd and 5 points behind. No trophies.

The unhappy fans continue to be unhappy.

Glazers do nothing.

What do they choose to do next? Do the fans go boo as their next step?

Well it depends on context surely? Utd fans always back the manager so all we will get is fans on here telling us match going fans are wrong to do so (which has happened before)
For me, if there’s progress and we fall just short then Ole should stay on. If it’s just a replay of last year then he should go. I was told last year was a fluke etc so if he brings us on even further then he deserves another year.

 

[James35]

Feels like we're in a bit of a rock and a hard place with Ole. At this point, it almost feels like we can't afford to have him fail with the amount invested in him - in terms of money, time and mainly emotional energy. It's been a draining few years for our fanbase telling the football world, they're all wrong and he's actually a savant/second coming of Fergie/look at Klopps record when he started etc.

Yep. I have certainly never been more divided with fellow fans of United than I have been since Ole. I have never strayed away from being Ole out and I'm still very much so. He needs to win something this season for me (yes I would've happily taken the League Cup) or he has to go but I know half the fan base at least will tell me I'm entitled or impatient etc.

I always answer with this question. If it was just another manager who had zero past history with our club, would we all be on the same page or would people who want Ole to stay also want the random guy (who never scored a CL winning goal for us) to continue to get money and time beyond this season...especially if he fails to win anything this season?

I'm more than happy for him to stay next season if he wins us something, hell even with a serious title challenge and CL challenge that goes to the wire, I'd be like yeah give him one more year to win us something but that's it for me.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Well it depends on context surely? Utd fans always back the manager so all we will get is fans on here telling us match going fans are wrong to do so (which has happened before)
For me, if there’s progress and we fall just short then Ole should stay on. If it’s just a replay of last year then he should go. I was told last year was a fluke etc so if he brings us on even further then he deserves another year.

This season will be interesting to see how Ole manages us seeing as someone said Chelsea and Liverpool have got their 'sh*t together'.

 

[Anustart89]

That's pinning a lot on a trophy that goes on during the busiest time period.
Big league games, CL knockouts, etc.

Especially since every run-in under Ole has coincided with a drop in form, with fatigue and under-utilisation of squad members that he can’t trust because he hasn’t been backed enough by the board being cited as excuses.

 

[The-Natural]

May somehow survive til the end of the season but the curtain has been pulled back for enough people to see he isn't up to standard and it's time to start looking at other options.

Has done some good work and is still an absolute club legend but should still be getting the Lampard treatment sadly.

 

[izec]

Top 4 and he wont get sacked. Sack is only when we miss out on top 4. We have never sacked a manager under the Glazers who was comfortable top 4, only if that is threatened and/or the players revolt etc.

So nothing to fear for Ole, his job is safe as ever. Silverware is a bonus. That is the reality.

 

[crossy1686]

May somehow survive til the end of the season but the curtain has been pulled back for enough people to see he isn't up to standard and it's time to start looking at other options.

Has done some good work and is still an absolute club legend but should still be getting the Lampard treatment sadly.

I hope he wakes up and realise's he's the manager of Manchester United and starts making more forward thinking decisions around the selections and in game changes. At the moment it feels like he's allowing McKenna or Carrick to make decisions that could cost him his job. If he wants to be a DOF he should make it known, until then he needs to start being more cut throat with players that shouldn't have even started yesterday.

 

[matsdf]

I hope he wakes up and realise's he's the manager of Manchester United and starts making more forward thinking decisions around the selections and in game changes. At the moment it feels like he's allowing McKenna or Carrick to make decisions that could cost him his job. If he wants to be a DOF he should make it known, until then he needs to start being more cut throat with players that shouldn't have even started yesterday.

What do you mean by forward thinking decisions?

 

[slored1]

Getting a bit worried with our starts. Last year it was already bad but there is no excuse for the shit performances now.

 

[tenpoless]

United fans won’t boo a manager even if he would relegate us.

 

[Revan]

While the match going fans were applauding Moyes like he had found the cure of cancer and AIDS that day.

 

[tenpoless]

While the match going fans were applauding Moyes like he had found the cure of cancer and AIDS that day.

Could be someone from bluemoon that flew that

 

[crossy1686]

What do you mean by forward thinking decisions?

Like starting Mata, Martial, Sancho, Matic, VDB, Bailly and Lindelof all in the same team last night.

- Mata isn't going to play again this season, maybe he'll get another 45 minutes if we're desperate at some point. Does he need to be match fit? No, he does not. Who does it benefit to play alongside Mata for 60 minutes?

- Martial isn't going to start a game while we have Ronaldo, Cavani, Greenwood and Rashford fit so why play him with Sancho, who's new to the squad and hasn't formed any partnerships yet? How did yesterday benefit Sancho apart from minutes under his belt? Ronaldo won't play the same way Martial does, neither will Greenwood so what did Sancho really learn about the first team last night? Greenwood should have started as the CF to help Sancho at least form some sort of link up play with another first team player.

- Same applies for Matic and VDB, and Lindelof and Bailly. In what situation are these lot going to partner each other again? VBD will most likely play alongside Pogba, McTomminay or Fred and Bailly and Lindelof will most likely partner Maguire or Varane when asked to play. Last night was forcing a bunch of players that don't play together and won't play together again, and collectively destroyed their already fragile confidence.

Solskjaer said before the game that the selection was based on players needing minutes, fine, they have to play but there was ample opportunity for them to play the other games when we were winning. Then after the game he said these players couldn't do well against a low block and they were putting crosses into the box, which isn't the way we play. I find that baffling because if he knew that and still picked them then there's no helping him from this point forward.