I disagree with more or less everything you said except Moyes part (for example, the football right now is not better at all than under Mourinho or LVG, and both of them played more young players than Ole), but thanks for your explanation.
Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
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What annoys me is that people are very willing to let this season go to shit (sack him if we don’t get through the CL group, sack him if we’re not challenging by March) when it’s already obvious that we’re the exact same team as last season and the season before that, albeit with better players. Our struggles are the same, our football looks the same, everything apart from the personnel is the same.
It’s mostly annoying because we’ve literally just seen what can happen if you act proactively and make the necessary change before it’s all gone to shit. Even the economics of it don’t make sense. Imagine if Roman had kept Lampard until top 4 was mathematically impossible, would they be worse or better off economically? One would think that winning the CL and qualifying for this years tournament has earned the club more money than sacking Lampard cost them.
It’s mostly annoying because we’ve literally just seen what can happen if you act proactively and make the necessary change before it’s all gone to shit. Even the economics of it don’t make sense. Imagine if Roman had kept Lampard until top 4 was mathematically impossible, would they be worse or better off economically? One would think that winning the CL and qualifying for this years tournament has earned the club more money than sacking Lampard cost them.
More like 3 weeks with an all star squad.
Are saying the squad went from poor to all star by adding two players?
Only counting Varane and Ronaldo since Sancho hasn’t made a mark yet.
If you’re not saying that the squad went from poor to all star with two additions, then you’re admitting that he had a very good squad last season too, aren’t you? A season where I don’t really need to tell you how many trophies we won and how our actual play looked. Hint: it’s the exact same fecking thing regardless of which players he has at his disposal.
it's fair enough if you don't think our football is better than under Van Gaal or Mourinho. Personally I do because I actually enjoy watching United again despite the frustrating 2 steps forward, 1 step back stage we're in.
Yep, fair enough. Just that I think that it is 2 steps forward, 2 back while spending 400m.
I mean, that’s a phrasing that Rio would be 100% behind, is he totally off in how he describes the change in the atmosphere? It’s not without merit, the same way it’s not entirely baseless to want more structured and effective play from us, which is what I take POP to stand for.
A few thoughts of my own on the match:
The manager - had a bad one yesterday. The team selection was fine. I would have liked to have seen VDB start this one to reward his performance in midweek, but I can understand why you'd revert to a trusted duo when facing a team as robust as Villa are. My issue with him yesterday was the failure to address the loss of shape and discipline that we saw in the second half. Not all of it was his fault and I'll come on to that, but I'd still have liked to see a bit more from him when things were falling apart. Those on here who know me know that I rarely criticise Ole, but it would be foolish to ignore that he had a bad day yesterday and as he gets more and more experience in this role those bad days become less acceptable. It's a red flag coming from a guy who knows that everyone has a bad day, but too many of these now might cost him his job. However.....
The players - we all look at our squad list and drool over the talent in there, but yesterday they played like individuals and they have to shoulder just as much blame. Right from Bruno's early miss I sensed a bad day coming. The thing with football is that sometimes every manager needs to rely on his players to survive a game that's not going to plan, and they failed pretty badly. Lack of composure, loss of shape, basic errors, bad decisions, selfish decisions. We saw an abundance of all of these things yesterday. I hope the staff are strong enough to tell them that they aren't as good as they might think they are, and I hope the squad are of the kind that they don't even need telling. They need to reset and get back to doing those basic things much better. Not nearly good enough yesterday.
The league - there's always a lot of back and forth on here about other teams and managers. I don't like the hero worship of other managers and I don't see too much need to look outside of our own walls when it comes to analysing United, but the fact is that the PL is strong. On any given day a lot of sides are capable of beating anyone. There's no point saying 'See! Klopp couldn't beat Brentford' to absolve Ole or our team of our own shortcomings, because it doesn't achieve that. All it proves is how strong this division is now. Every team are going to have bad days and drop points, simply because its inevitable that on some days a better team aren't going to be quite on it, and their opponents play to the top of their potential - as Villa did. I don't see anyone getting to 90 points this season, so there's no point throwing in the towel at such an early point of the season. Ole's job this season is getting out of the CL group, staying in league contention come Feb/Mar, and figuring out what our best team is in the meantime. If he can't do that then he'll probably be gone by the summer.
The manager - had a bad one yesterday. The team selection was fine. I would have liked to have seen VDB start this one to reward his performance in midweek, but I can understand why you'd revert to a trusted duo when facing a team as robust as Villa are. My issue with him yesterday was the failure to address the loss of shape and discipline that we saw in the second half. Not all of it was his fault and I'll come on to that, but I'd still have liked to see a bit more from him when things were falling apart. Those on here who know me know that I rarely criticise Ole, but it would be foolish to ignore that he had a bad day yesterday and as he gets more and more experience in this role those bad days become less acceptable. It's a red flag coming from a guy who knows that everyone has a bad day, but too many of these now might cost him his job. However.....
The players - we all look at our squad list and drool over the talent in there, but yesterday they played like individuals and they have to shoulder just as much blame. Right from Bruno's early miss I sensed a bad day coming. The thing with football is that sometimes every manager needs to rely on his players to survive a game that's not going to plan, and they failed pretty badly. Lack of composure, loss of shape, basic errors, bad decisions, selfish decisions. We saw an abundance of all of these things yesterday. I hope the staff are strong enough to tell them that they aren't as good as they might think they are, and I hope the squad are of the kind that they don't even need telling. They need to reset and get back to doing those basic things much better. Not nearly good enough yesterday.
The league - there's always a lot of back and forth on here about other teams and managers. I don't like the hero worship of other managers and I don't see too much need to look outside of our own walls when it comes to analysing United, but the fact is that the PL is strong. On any given day a lot of sides are capable of beating anyone. There's no point saying 'See! Klopp couldn't beat Brentford' to absolve Ole or our team of our own shortcomings, because it doesn't achieve that. All it proves is how strong this division is now. Every team are going to have bad days and drop points, simply because its inevitable that on some days a better team aren't going to be quite on it, and their opponents play to the top of their potential - as Villa did. I don't see anyone getting to 90 points this season, so there's no point throwing in the towel at such an early point of the season. Ole's job this season is getting out of the CL group, staying in league contention come Feb/Mar, and figuring out what our best team is in the meantime. If he can't do that then he'll probably be gone by the summer.
I like the man, but I don’t like his coaching style. It’s each to their own obviously, but he’s far too quiet for my liking.
Practically never shouts or responds to try and bring up the team when playing poorly. Just sits there on bench with his chin in his hand, looking bemused.
He had a bad day yesterday.
Practically never shouts or responds to try and bring up the team when playing poorly. Just sits there on bench with his chin in his hand, looking bemused.
He had a bad day yesterday.
Quick one to those who keep going on about it being early in the season and time to turn it around, you do realise he is too stubborn to admit he's wrong about any of the below
Donny being given a proper go in the league over McFred
Ball possession and midfield control is very important indeed
Starting games slowly but doing nothing to change that
Then you throw in the fact he keeps talking about not being a coach and he's working alongside total rookies which is quite frankly an absolute recipe for disaster and explains why our play has littlie flow most of the time.
Donny being given a proper go in the league over McFred
Ball possession and midfield control is very important indeed
Starting games slowly but doing nothing to change that
Then you throw in the fact he keeps talking about not being a coach and he's working alongside total rookies which is quite frankly an absolute recipe for disaster and explains why our play has littlie flow most of the time.
Yeah a fair bit of money has been spent under Ole - but we have to remember how far behind City and Liverpool we were when he took over.
And our rivals keep investing and improving each year too.
Things aren't ideal but we're closer to the two best teams than we were.
I also don't have ant idea who could come in and provide any type of guarantee we'd over come City and Liverpool that have the two best coaches in the game, arguably.
There's always going to be a split amongst fans were some want to give a long time to building and improving - other fans think changing Managers frequently like Chelsea would be better. Never will the two opinions find any common ground
This is the problem when you have people who don't really know football making the important decisions. If you look at Chelsea, Roman has been spot on with almost every sacking bar the Ancelotti one and they have on occasion managed to salvage a poor season after sacking an underpeforming manager.
We take too much time, basically writing off a season and leaving the club with a mountain to climb regarding recruitment because most top players demand CL football. If we miss top four this season, we lose Pogba for free, Ronaldo will want out and Bruno might get unsettled. Why risk it by waiting for disaster to strike instead of being proactive?
I think most people in the club and the fan base are sentimental and it's hurting us. They are so invested in the idea of Ole becoming SAF that they have become blind to reason and when they wake up it could be too late to work our way back to the top because there are few clubs on the brink of establishing themselves as bona fide top four contenders. All it takes is for Arsenal or Spurs to get it right in the dug out for our top four place to be under threat.
Good post and spot on, especially that bolded part is important.
I dont know, but when watching the game yesterday i kept feeling that Villa wanted it much more where as we played like it was a preseason friendly, not comminting in duels, not running enough and generally being careless and sloppy.
That being said though, its Oles job to sort them out. Considering the competition there is no chance in hell we are going to challenge for any major honors unless the team is prepared to give 100% in every game
The bolded parts are probably the main reason why there is a technical area, players aren't robots they need to be marshaled throughout the match or bad bad things such as losing shape and discipline happen. Isn't this the in-game management that he is criticized a lot for lacking? You don't just sit idly by and watch a game a slip away especially over silly things like failing to call out Mason for selfishness.
Our football hasn't been overly exhilarating during his tenure. Yes, we have had spells playing some good stuff and gotten some great results, conversely we've had periods of playing dire stuff too. As my personal preference, I've enjoyed Ole's football the best, but the bar is really low. We did look pretty decent at one stage under Jose, but it all went south pretty quickly, likewise with LvG.
I think too much stock is placed into this 'cultural reboot' stuff. Ole certainly deserves credit for some very good work, and not being Jose. But some of the talk of this 'cultural reboot' is fluffy nonsense, and is nothing more than a flaky defence for Ole. We judge managers on a-lot of different criteria, and while he has done well in some areas, he's looked rather poor in others. People constantly tell us how all the players love Ole, buy into his ideas and we're all one big happy family. But how does anyone actually know this? Sure, the atmosphere is the best it's been post-Fergie and Ole is a likeable guy, but that doesn't mean the players are 100% sold on his project/football. We can speculate for sure, but like we don't know what goes on at training, we also don't really know this. Players aren't going to slate him in public because he's not a toxic weapon like Jose. But that doesn't mean much, in all honesty.
We need to stop comparing Ole to the previous regimes. Yes, they were fecking disasters for the most part, but they still yielded trophies. Saying Ole has brought back the 'feel good' factor, or whatever, is all well and good, but he's being compared to poor regimes, so it's not saying much. Instead of comparing him to failed regimes - where he comes out looking great - let's start comparing him/our club to other top managers/clubs and how they are run. I'm still backing him for now, and I love some of the work he has done, but some of it is overblown. By virtue of not being Jose, seems to have elevated basic things he's done, to god like work.
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I just feel it'll turn into another cliched 'patterns of play' sthick that people will randomly throw into posts. Then it just loses all meaning.
The money won't go to waste. I think everybody acknowledges that we have a fantastic squad now.
You can have all the fancy systems in the world but if nobody wants to burst a gut, it's irrelevant
Likewise, you can have all the fancy players in the world, but if your manager does not offer anything other than "good feel", it's irrelevant.
There's no way you can convince me that Ole is the manager to bring success to this club, because results speak for themselves.
Knives are out in the media for sure - huge October for him, if it is disappointing he will be gone.
This is a bit disingenuous since few of the issues we have, in terms of defensive shape, stem from his desire to stretch the pitch with as many as 6 players in the attacking third. Mourinho-ball was never about that. His motto is "attack with as few players as possible and if that doesn't work, have certain players to join the attack from the second lines". The last time he managed to pull a rabbit out of the hat like that and showcase his "tactical brilliance" was back in 2015, when he used to overload the left side and then have Ivanovic joining in the attack from RB. All things considered, Solkjaer is far more courageous than Mourinho with the general positioning of his players when United attack in full stretch.
But, this is about the how. If you're talking about what we are trying to achieve on the pitch, the truth is that not much has changed. We still want to be as direct as possible and instruct the forward and the wingers to always look to exploit the spaces in-behind the moment we clear the ball in our third. We still don't perceive possession plays as a way to establish control, but only as a means to inviting press and, subsequently, opening up spaces behind the defence. And we still overload one side to switch play as the best way to move the ball forward. In this sense, little has changed, and it comes as no surprise that some problems in our game from Jose's time persist today. The forwards make the early runs and they create pockets of space between the lines, but nobody moves in to occupy them. The lack of any meaningful possession game often kills all rhythm and tempo. Finally, switching sides when there's absolutely zero vertical movement off the ball is nothing more than an exercise in futility.
Something similar is happening with the midfield. People accuse Solsljaer of cowardly tactics, when the simple fact that whoever we pair in there are asked to perform beyond their capabilities is clearly what's at fault. It's true that Mc Fred were rubbish yesterday, but there's a reason they are considered our best choices in the centre of the park. The area of responsibility is huge. And when we're on the ball, our hastiness to be direct and the lack of involvement from the attackers in the build-up often creates a frustrating sight: When our midfielders are on the ball, their teammates move away from them (or stand still in advanced positions) instead of making themselves available. It's not working and would not be working even with Kroos/Modric in their place.
Speaking of Kroos/Modric, let's look at how Zidane became a success in Madrid. He sacrificed an attacking midfielder to force Casemiro down the throats of a fanbase who only want to see their team play with style. And when Bale was underperforming, he took him off in favour of a midfielder (Isco) and reverted to a diamond. Hardly the most attacking of changes, but they allowed Real Madrid to become a more balanced side.
And trust me, Conte would never dare to leave the central channels unprotected. He would think of playing Pogba in there, but only if he knew that the odds would be in his favour in the long run. Just as Matic/Kante were his go-to pair at Chelsea, but he would also deploy Fabregas as a deep-lying play-maker quite often because he was fine with route-one football too. But he did all that with Costa leading the line: A forward tailor-made for this type of football, able to play with his back to goal, wrestle with defenders, keep the ball and chase it like a rabid dog. Not with Tony freaking Martial on 250 thousand quid p/w or with the 37 yo version of Ronaldo. Also, unlike Mourinho, with the patience to help Lukaku improve at Inter.
Going back to Solskjaer, he seems to have backed himself into a corner. He has created a top-heavy side with many forwards who like to rely on instinct and contribute very little in other areas. Thus, the overreliance on Bruno to orchestrate the attack on his own. Then, Solskajaer understands that we have to take better care of the ball (remember him and Mckenna gesturing Bruno and co. to slow down and pass the ball around?). But Matic can't run any more, VdB is not fit for a physical battle and Pogba is a defensive liability... Well, managers are being paid to find solutions, not to ask for transfers all the time. Change the set-up: Matic is the only holding-midfielder you have, so make his area of responsibility smaller. Beek's short-passing can be crisp, so create triangles in the midfield. Pogba has the best range of passing in the whole squad, so make the long diagonal and other options available to him to make up for his mistakes at the back. But when we come down to brass tacks, in most cases, this means that the most crucial player on the pitch must either find a new role or be dropped.
It's not a matter of being defensive. It's a matter of still having no balance in our game. And only good balance can bring consistency. If we want to move away from Fred/McT, we should not replace either one with a fancy ball-playing midfielder. The rest 8 outfield players, especially the 4 ahead of them, have to work much more on the pitch. I still remember when people were calling Lampard crazy for deploying Jorginho in front of the defence. But Jorginho's play-making from deep is world-class. Did Tuchel sign a workhorse to fix the midfield? No, he changed the set-up to provide protection to the Italian and he also coached Chelsea's defensive transition so that their lines don't look like unravelling knitwear when they are getting back to shape.
This is what Solskjaer needs to prioritize because this is where he's failing tactically.
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I love Ole, but I love Manchester United more, and you all should feel the same way. If it's best for the club and him to part ways, at least as manager, everyone should want it. And right now, it's pretty clear he'll never be able to turn this team into champions, no matter what transfers are made. He has no clue how to make our team greater than the sum of its parts. It's all individual players making things happen.
Or they do want to bust a gut and haven't been drilled well enough on a proper system.
Either they are collectively not putting an effort, which would be the managers fault.
Or they havent been coached well, which is the managers fault.
Cultural reboot 
Everything he achieved so far is at present time and once he is gone, everything will reset again with our new manager, for worse of for better. I don't believe in this "Laying foundation" thing, if you bring someone like Jose and you will have toxic atmosphere in no time again, regardless of current state.
Everything he achieved so far is at present time and once he is gone, everything will reset again with our new manager, for worse of for better. I don't believe in this "Laying foundation" thing, if you bring someone like Jose and you will have toxic atmosphere in no time again, regardless of current state.
Because there literally isn’t a manager currently available that can do that? Who said anything about us being special? It’s about finding the right person to replace him with instead of forcing the issue with a stop gap that gets 2 seasons.
List them and how and where they would lead us to major trophies short term and long termWhat?? Seriously?
That's the thing, and neither scenario bodes well for Ole. Either the coaching/system isn't working whatsoever, or the players just aren't buying into it.
I doubt the Glazers will fire him so soon. Probably not even if we don't make top 4 (which we most likely will)
For me if we get beaten Weds night then board need to consider letting him go. 2nd defeat in that group that we should be winning with that squad we have.
They have spent far too much money recently to settle for top four so I don't buy that. This is clearly a squad that's been assembled to win trophies and if he doesn't deliver them he will surely be gone.
Are you implying that we can only approach a manager if they are out of a club/free agent at the moment?
Was Nagelsmann a free agent when Bayern offered him the job?
This is why ultimately this club's failure is on the top management, there are clear red flags that tell you a lot about a manager or about a situation. The way Ole's teams capitulate when off form and at critical junctures says a lot about whether a manager can achieve or not.
It's not about getting beat or failing to playing attractive football but the depths to which he allows us to sink or some of the performances he tolerates or the stubbornness to remain loyal to underperforming players. For example we went top towards Christmas and lost our way for about four or five games only to return to form when City had run out of sight meaning there was no pressure of expectation, we are doing the same even though the results hadn't started matching the performances and as soon as the expectation to win is gone we will start playing better. He is bottler.
True enough.
The problem is they will only act after its too late salvage anything and it's partly because the whole United intelligensia in the media and around the club are his former team mates, his ex manager or top red zealots beholden to the belief that Fergie somehow became great because he was given time and the same will apply to Ole. We saw this narrative under Moyes and they only acted after the damage had already been done which cost us the chance to sign some top players because we had no CL football to offer.
The only people with the gravitas to advise the owners differently would be the Ronaldo entourage especially if Zidane fancies the job. I don't expect the likes of Murtough, Fletcher, Fergie, Neville, Rio or even Keane to tell them that a change is due. They are just too sentimental and invested in Ole, an old boy, to be objective. I think the Glazers, especially Woodward, lean a bit too heavily on the Class of 92 to act independently in sacking a legend.
I've just noticed it a-lot recently, and it's usually pulled out of the bag when we're not doing so well. It becomes nonsical when it's just randomly thrown into posts.
I feel the premise of the phrase is generally agreed with by most people. But, it's a very broad area and context needs to be applied to it. I feel that praising Ole for culture change etc. should form part of a conversation about his tenure. But when it becomes the sole conversation, it's usually done to detract from his shortcomings.
I'm generally a 'betwixt and between the extremes' person, and I'm in a similar position with Ole.
I read a lot of these threads, and I see the validity of plenty of the points within the posts despite them coming at it from a very different 'Ole out / Ole in' viewpoint.
I also see the validity in both the 'patterns of play' and 'cultural reboot' arguments. As I think Ole has definitely achieved the latter, but there are big questions about his managerial style with the former.
Personally, I thought Ole was the right type of appointment that we needed at the time. After LVG and Mourinho, the club was, for me, in the worst of both positions - losing its 'traditional identity' without being close to winning the PL or CL. I could accept the former if we were achieving the latter, or vice versa, but not the absence of either.
So, as I say, I think the club needed someone like Ole to come in and get it back on the right track. And I think he's fully achieved that in terms of the 'identity' aspect. And I think he's also achieved that with the type of players we've signed and squad we've assembled - just now a DM away from a PL / CL winning level of squad.
Which brings us onto Ole's 'ability' as a manager. Is he good enough to deliver a PL or CL title with a squad good enough to achieve it? I guess we'll have a much better idea this season - although signing that much needed DM would have given us the full idea.
My instinct is, no, he's not quite a good enough manager to compete at that elite level with much more proven managers. That he's achieved what he was brought in for, and that now, to kick on that extra, but hardest, level to win major titles, we need a proven manager capable of doing so.
However, I only want that if there's a manager out there who'll continue all the other things Ole has brought back to the club and can just add that extra level of aura and tactical nous that can deliver major titles. If the alternative is to bring in another Mourinho / LVG type who'll rip up everything we've put in place for the last two years to do it 'his way' then we're pretty much back where we started unless he's the one who successfully delivers major titles while doing so.
So I'm torn. Pleased with where Ole has got us to. Uncertain whether Ole has the ability to get beyond the 2 steps forward, 1 back, to start winning major titles. But wary of taking the gamble of bringing in a more proven winner if their style risks taking us back to where we were pre-Ole. I only want that decision made if the person coming in is very much on board with the direction the club has been going in in the last couple of years and just has that extra level of tactical competency to take us that extra step and deliver trophies at the end of it.
I read a lot of these threads, and I see the validity of plenty of the points within the posts despite them coming at it from a very different 'Ole out / Ole in' viewpoint.
I also see the validity in both the 'patterns of play' and 'cultural reboot' arguments. As I think Ole has definitely achieved the latter, but there are big questions about his managerial style with the former.
Personally, I thought Ole was the right type of appointment that we needed at the time. After LVG and Mourinho, the club was, for me, in the worst of both positions - losing its 'traditional identity' without being close to winning the PL or CL. I could accept the former if we were achieving the latter, or vice versa, but not the absence of either.
So, as I say, I think the club needed someone like Ole to come in and get it back on the right track. And I think he's fully achieved that in terms of the 'identity' aspect. And I think he's also achieved that with the type of players we've signed and squad we've assembled - just now a DM away from a PL / CL winning level of squad.
Which brings us onto Ole's 'ability' as a manager. Is he good enough to deliver a PL or CL title with a squad good enough to achieve it? I guess we'll have a much better idea this season - although signing that much needed DM would have given us the full idea.
My instinct is, no, he's not quite a good enough manager to compete at that elite level with much more proven managers. That he's achieved what he was brought in for, and that now, to kick on that extra, but hardest, level to win major titles, we need a proven manager capable of doing so.
However, I only want that if there's a manager out there who'll continue all the other things Ole has brought back to the club and can just add that extra level of aura and tactical nous that can deliver major titles. If the alternative is to bring in another Mourinho / LVG type who'll rip up everything we've put in place for the last two years to do it 'his way' then we're pretty much back where we started unless he's the one who successfully delivers major titles while doing so.
So I'm torn. Pleased with where Ole has got us to. Uncertain whether Ole has the ability to get beyond the 2 steps forward, 1 back, to start winning major titles. But wary of taking the gamble of bringing in a more proven winner if their style risks taking us back to where we were pre-Ole. I only want that decision made if the person coming in is very much on board with the direction the club has been going in in the last couple of years and just has that extra level of tactical competency to take us that extra step and deliver trophies at the end of it.
Are you suggesting someone like him would leave Bayern for us? Managers don’t generally want to jump ship when they’re in the middle of a project, we’re best off waiting until the end of the season when managers have been sacked and we can assess our options properly.
When people talk about no pattern of play or no structure to me that is most obvious in the defense. We've got in Varane and I see no difference from last season. It's the same mistakes. Every game I feel we will concede. And I think that league champions don't usually give off that feeling.
Cultural reboot is the dumbest term ever. You'd swear this was Hollywood after the metoo movement.
All we can reasonably ask of Ole at this point is to hold players accountable. What I mean by that is that as a player while you’re allowed a single poor performance that you will be sent to the bench if you put in multiple poor performances.
Unacceptable that poor performers be allowed to continue performing poorly.
Unacceptable that poor performers be allowed to continue performing poorly.
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