Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion

[tenpoless]

Ole's football is better than Mourinho's. Stop the revisionism

Did you watch the last 4 matches?

 

[wolvored]

It's not deflecting. It's as simple as has someone met the original targets that were set out or not! It's as simple as that. It's like saying Leicester underachieved in the league in the last 2 seasons because they didn't get top 4 despite being in those positions for so long. I don' t think anyone would say so irrespective of the circumstances. There was a reason why they weren't rated that highly and it was lack of depth in their side - the same reason why we weren't expected to be challenging for the title last year. The fact that we were top at one point is more of a pleasant surprise than a benchmark for expectation for remaining part of the season.

Similarly, around the cup part, I think people put way too much weightage on cups. They're good to have but are stupid indicators to judge progress, especially as in most cases the difference between whether you've progressed or not is largely dependent on factors like cup draws and a one-off game as the final. The story is obviously different in CL as you're most likely facing top teams to reach the final. So, if Dave's penalty save was what sways people from going between Ole in and out then I think they'll unlikely be satisfied with any manager (mind - I feel we played poorly in that game and ideally should've won before pens, but it's football not a simulation).

And I think most people have conceded that title challenge has to be the expectation this season, else he's underachieved and I doubt people will complain too much should he get sacked. But, let the season pan out instead of extrapolating the performances so far to the rest of the season.

And as far as poorest manager in top 10 clubs is concerned, don't agree but I doubt anything I say will change your mind, or will be classed as a "deflection tactic"

Using your poorest manager in the top 10, I wonder if any other manager and their coaches in the top 10 with this squad would have us playing in a style that would stand out and be winning trophies over the last 2 seasons? Obviously Pep Klopp and Tuchel would. Rodgers, Moyes, Arteta, Ancellotti even Bielsa? Would they have done better?

 

[wolvored]

Problem is people keep talking about the current team as if it'll be here for 10 years and Ole has built a long term squad while in reality you have De Gea 30, Maguire 28, Varane 28, Fred 28, Pogba 28, Bruno 27, Ronaldo 36, Cavani 34..etc.

3 years form now or something and we'll probably start thinking about a new rebuild especially in midfield. All the starters in midfield are around 28 years old bar Scott. Our 2 main strikers are also +34, did we give Greenwood any chances as main striker yet for the future?

Point is if you sign Varane 28 and Ronaldo 36 in same summer, it's BS to talk about needing more time.

Well said. We will be in perpetual transition We only need a CM then We only need a striker then a CD etc etc. I really hope we win something, anything at all this season, otherwise we will be the laughing stock again. Highest wage bill, fortune spent on players, Inexperienced coaches learning on the job, not to mention Ole. What other big club around the world gets run like this?

 

[Amir]

I think it's fair to say that Solskjaer's football is more pleasing on the eye at times than Mourinho's. It's obviously less rigid so in the right circumstances, with the players we've good, it can look quite good.

Problem 1 is, those circumstances depend a lot on our oponents playing into our hands.

Problem 2 is, you need to find a solution for the rest of the matches if you want to win anything. We greatly lack there.

 

[HBFSTR00]

Something I would like to know from everyone here is, do you think :

Ole could win the league with City’s team?
Pep could win the league with this United team?

 

[432JuanMata]

Something I would like to know from everyone here is, do you think :

Ole could win the league with City’s team?
Pep could win the league with this United team?

No
Yes.

I think Pep would as you take him away from city they get worse and we be a lot better. The MF be still poor but I feel he could makeshift something for the season

 

[Bastian]

Give me league vs league results (points per game is nonsense above). Cup vs Cup. Adjust for quality of opposition. That's just a starting point.

Is Mourinho a better manager than Solskjaer? Obviously. Has Solskjaer done a good job for us to this point? Yes.

JM 93 League games, 1.89 ppg. Ole 104 League games, 186.5 ppg. I think I'm right in saying.

 

[lex talionis]

Something I would like to know from everyone here is, do you think :

Ole could win the league with City’s team? NO
Pep could win the league with this United team? YES

Perhaps a more interesting question is apart from Pep and Klopp, could any other manager on the planet win the league this season with this United team?

 

[Sviken]

Perhaps a more interesting question is apart from Pep and Klopp, could any other manager on the planet win the league this season with this United team?

Reckon Tuchel, Simeone, Nagelsmann would easily challenge. Zidane is a good shout, as well. And that's the managers I am absolutely sure would do so. There are many more who have a very high chance of performing much better than Ole such as Potter, Hag, Rose, Gasperini, etc. Of course, nothing is certain in football, but this United team shouldn't be struggling against the likes of Aston Villa, West Ham and Everton.

 

[DRJosh]

No
Yes.

I think Pep would as you take him away from city they get worse and we be a lot better. The MF be still poor but I feel he could makeshift something for the season

Agreed. Pep's tactical versatility is something Ole could only dream of. And yes, I'm aware Ole has got the better of Pep multiple times, but that doesn't tell the full story.

 

[432JuanMata]

Agreed. Pep's tactical versatility is something Ole could only dream of. And yes, I'm aware Ole has got the better of Pep multiple times, but that doesn't tell the full story.

H2H means Jack. No point in beating City if you can’t beat Burnley. Ole’s record is ok against top 6(last season not the best) but too challenge city you have to beat the bottom 10 nearly all the time.

 

[pocco]

Something I would like to know from everyone here is, do you think :

Ole could win the league with City’s team?
Pep could win the league with this United team?

No
Yes

City under Ole would be all about how City need a new LB (Solskjaer wouldn't ever use Zinchenko as effectively as Pep), a new athletic DM (Fernandinho is on his last legs and this is something City need anyway), and a striker (this would be a huge issue under Ole). Perhaps a new CB as I don't think Stones and Laporte are individually as good as the CBs that Ole is still struggling with here.

 

[tenpoless]

Something I would like to know from everyone here is, do you think :

Ole could win the league with City’s team?
Pep could win the league with this United team?

No. Ole cant form a winning team with no CF. Most managers cant
Yes. He will make adjustments here and there tactically but even if the players arent up to his most ideal standards, the quality is enough for him to really challenge for the league

 

[Teja]

Perhaps a more interesting question is apart from Pep and Klopp, could any other manager on the planet win the league this season with this United team?

Reckon Tuchel, Simeone, Nagelsmann would easily challenge. Zidane is a good shout, as well. And that's the managers I am absolutely sure would do so. There are many more who have a very high chance of performing much better than Ole such as Potter, Hag, Rose, Gasperini, etc. Of course, nothing is certain in football, but this United team shouldn't be struggling against the likes of Aston Villa, West Ham and Everton.

Agree that others can definitely do more with this squad. Deep cup runs, better football, more dominance in games etc. Beating Klopp and Pep to the title though takes some doing. Incredible managers.

We can outlast Pep. Think he'll leave end of this season anyway. Unfortunately don't see Klopp going anywhere soon.

 

[Cloud7]

Well said. We will be in perpetual transition We only need a CM then We only need a striker then a CD etc etc. I really hope we win something, anything at all this season, otherwise we will be the laughing stock again. Highest wage bill, fortune spent on players, Inexperienced coaches learning on the job, not to mention Ole. What other big club around the world gets run like this?

We are the only club in world football who are perpetually in a “transition” which means that we aren’t expected to win anything. Other big clubs they’re still expected to win things regardless of what’s going on, but at United this eternal transition supersedes everything.

 

[smi11ie]

We are the only club in world football who are perpetually in a “transition” which means that we aren’t expected to win anything. Other big clubs they’re still expected to win things regardless of what’s going on, but at United this eternal transition supersedes everything.

This is true. The words "transition" and "progression" plague Utd. Both utter bullcrap.

Professional sport is not about progression it is about winning. Look at Leicester, they didn't progress to an EPL trophy, they grasped the nettle and took it. In much the same way Liverpool won the ECL previously. City haven't managed to "progress" to win the ECL.

The reason big teams win more things is because they can afford the best players and coaches. I agree with Neville, this is the last season Ole gets to win something.

 

[Hisha]

What's the debate about? These figures don't prove anything. (And I backed Mourinho plenty before he was sacked)

There vast difference in quality between Ole’s and Jose’s team proves absolutely everything. And mind you, Jose still won us 3 trophies with a first team of Jones, Smalling, Young, Valencia, Bailly, Matic, Fellaini, Mata, Lingard and Martial.

Ole with a much much superior team is still performing worse than Jose. Our style of play is still boring and slow, we are still sitting back and waiting for a counter most of the time. It’s a waste of all the world class attacking talents we have on our team. And then comes the stats; Ole’s so called attacking team could only score as many goals as Jose’s “defensive” team could score and Ole’s superior defence leaked 30 more goals as well.

 

[elmo]

Did you watch the last 4 matches?

To be fair, watching our midfield and defence play like clowns are entertaining albeit for the wrong reasons.

 

[passtheball]

H2H means Jack. No point in beating City if you can’t beat Burnley. Ole’s record is ok against top 6(last season not the best) but too challenge city you have to beat the bottom 10 nearly all the time.

H2Hs is what fans of Liverpool and City used to hold onto to make themselves feel better while United won league titles.

We are the only club in world football who are perpetually in a “transition” which means that we aren’t expected to win anything. Other big clubs they’re still expected to win things regardless of what’s going on, but at United this eternal transition supersedes everything.

A word once beloved of fans of Arsenal. Look what they have transitioned to!

 

[Bebestation]

I personally would rather Ole get sacked after the January transfer window than earlier.

I'm starting to realise just how bad Fred is. Just how old Matic is. How much of a substitute player Mctominay should be. Just how much of a luxury Pogba is.

I like Ole players and whilst players in itself is not good enough to win a title - that doesn't stop me from wanting to see his type of midfielder.

We still struggle from the Mourinho era midfielders with Matic, Fred and Pogba.

Let Ole bring some in then really whatever happen will happen.

 

[RedTiger]

I'm starting to realise just how bad Fred is. Just how old Matic is.

You've just started to realise?

 

[anant]

Using your poorest manager in the top 10, I wonder if any other manager and their coaches in the top 10 with this squad would have us playing in a style that would stand out and be winning trophies over the last 2 seasons? Obviously Pep Klopp and Tuchel would. Rodgers, Moyes, Arteta, Ancellotti even Bielsa? Would they have done better?

Among those you've mentioned, Rodgers and Ancelloti maybe. Others no. And Rodgers also comes with an asterisk - handling player egos

 

[Bebestation]

You've just started to realise?

Yeah, I knew we needed new midfielders - but I would kind of just bypass Fred's mistakes because he gave energy that a player like Pogba would struggle to so its like one positive and one negative for each player however;

Ultimately these mistakes do cost us. He doesn't get in to good enough spaces etc.

Ive watched more YouTube videos of Fred recently and it does show.

I just want to see Ole's midfielder. If he keeps using Fred post January then it's his fault and he should get his consequences.

 

[passtheball]

I personally would rather Ole get sacked after the January transfer window than earlier.

I'm starting to realise just how bad Fred is. Just how old Matic is. How much of a substitute player Mctominay should be. Just how much of a luxury Pogba is.

I like Ole players and whilst players in itself is not good enough to win a title - that doesn't stop me from wanting to see his type of midfielder.

We still struggle from the Mourinho era midfielders with Matic, Fred and Pogba.
Let Ole bring some in then really whatever happen will happen.

I am sorry, these are poor excuses. Pogba plays well for France in midfield. Ole can't get a tune out of him, which is not surprisng given that the whole team is tactically clueless.

And he has had two summers to fill in the CM and CDM roles, but instead he spent 75m on a RW who he plays on the left.

And if the club is signing players like DvB and Sancho against his will, then he just doesn't have the force of personality to be United manager.

 

[RedTiger]

I just want to see Ole's midfielder. If he keeps using Fred post January then it's his fault and he should get his consequences.

I agree with this on the condition that the club brings in a DM in January.

 

[Hisha]

I personally would rather Ole get sacked after the January transfer window than earlier.

I'm starting to realise just how bad Fred is. Just how old Matic is. How much of a substitute player Mctominay should be. Just how much of a luxury Pogba is.

I like Ole players and whilst players in itself is not good enough to win a title - that doesn't stop me from wanting to see his type of midfielder.

*We still struggle from the Mourinho era midfielders with Matic, Fred and Pogba.

Let Ole bring some in then really whatever happen will happen.

Yea, the blame is still on Mourinho even after 3 years he left. If Ole is to continue next season, I would say that the blame would still be on Jose next season as well.

 

[Korwas]

Our longest win streak in the league under Ole is 6 games, his first 6 games.

 

[Bebestation]

Yea, the blame is still on Mourinho even after 3 years he left. If Ole is to continue next season, I would say that the blame would still be on Jose next season as well.

Umm no not really.

It's just more simple.

The main people that people are complaining are -

1. OLE
2. McFred
3. The rest of midfield/Pogba's problems/ inability to create for Ronaldo/have a certain play style = which can all be helped by the midfield, ultimately its primarily midfielders that dictate how a team play more than any other part of the team - more than goalkeepers, defenders or strikers.

It's not an excuse for Ole - it's more than I want to see who in his mind his midfielders are. Because it will answer the questions.

It should stop McFred and give us more of a play style.

It's not that I want him here forever and ever. Just I don't see why we must let him go 7 games in to the season - I just want his midfielders at the club because I like his type of CAM (Bruno +VDB) even if he can't be the best manager to utelise them, his type of wingers, his type of nearly every type of player - why can't I just be excited at his type of potential midfielder?

Just let him buy it and then he can get sacked for a no Mourinho sour squad.

Mourinho players - Lindelof, Bailey, Dalot, Matic, Fred, Grant, Pogba.

Alot of that is heavily dense in the defenders and midfield. We have got a defender to rebalance that. I just want a midfielder to rebalance the squad a bit through the Janaury window through Ole's good transfer hands. Then he can get sacked and he deserves it (and everyone is praying to their gods about it everynight).

 

[Leftback99]

JM 93 League games, 1.89 ppg. Ole 104 League games, 186.5 ppg. I think I'm right in saying.

Close as I expected once the easier cup games are removed. Basically one win/loss away from being the same ppg.
Goals per game 1.82 for Ole, 1.62 Mourinho.

 

[Zen86]

Did you watch the last 4 matches?

Did you watch Mourinho’s last 4 matches?

 

[tenpoless]

Did you watch Mourinho’s last 4 matches?

I don't know about you but when I eat food that tastes bad, I will not try to make it seems not bad by remembering all the worse foods I've ever eaten. Bad foods are bad foods. Ugly footballs are ugly footballs. Sure there are uglier ones but that doesn't mean the less ugly ones are good.

 

[wolvored]

Something I would like to know from everyone here is, do you think :

Ole could win the league with City’s team?
Pep could win the league with this United team?

No to Ole. He would have them regress over the season through lack of pattern and possession training and overplaying some and leaving others on the bench virtually every game.
Yes to Pep. After a slow start, he would transform our play and we would look a lot stronger as the season wore on.

 

[wolvored]

Umm no not really.

It's just more simple.

The main people that people are complaining are -

1. OLE
2. McFred
3. The rest of midfield/Pogba's problems/ inability to create for Ronaldo/have a certain play style = which can all be helped by the midfield, ultimately its primarily midfielders that dictate how a team play more than any other part of the team - more than goalkeepers, defenders or strikers.

It's not an excuse for Ole - it's more than I want to see who in his mind his midfielders are. Because it will answer the questions.

It should stop McFred and give us more of a play style.

It's not that I want him here forever and ever. Just I don't see why we must let him go 7 games in to the season - I just want his midfielders at the club because I like his type of CAM (Bruno +VDB) even if he can't be the best manager to utelise them, his type of wingers, his type of nearly every type of player - why can't I just be excited at his type of potential midfielder?

Just let him buy it and then he can get sacked for a no Mourinho sour squad.

Mourinho players - Lindelof, Bailey, Dalot, Matic, Fred, Grant, Pogba.

Alot of that is heavily dense in the defenders and midfield. We have got a defender to rebalance that. I just want a midfielder to rebalance the squad a bit through the Janaury window through Ole's good transfer hands. Then he can get sacked and he deserves it (and everyone is praying to their gods about it everynight).

How many players has Ole bought? How many more does he need for it to be 'his team'? How much more money needs to be spent?
So far he has spent £400 mill+ and never bought a central midfielder...err...apart from the one he did buy and refuses to play, (Bruno is more of a SS). Surely that means Ole is happy with his midfield. In fact he shoehorns another world cup winning midfielder over to the left to accomodate his preference.
Its just excuse after excuse for Ole, just because he is a legend here as a player. My favourite player of all time is Robbo, but I wouldnt touch him with a bargepole to be Man Utd manager.

 

[Zen86]

I don't know about you but when I eat food that tastes bad, I will not try to make it seems not bad by remembering all the worse foods I've ever eaten. Bad foods are bad foods. Ugly footballs are ugly footballs. Sure there are uglier ones but that doesn't mean the less ugly ones are good.

Nice backtracking. Your comment was suggestive that our football now is worse than Mourinho’s. Short memories.

 

[hammerfadl]

Expanding on what some mentioned on the Jose v. Ole numbers. If we split it into numbers for complete seasons with all competitive matches for all seasons after SAF.

Points pr match:
1. Mourinho 17/18 - 2,11
2. Mourinho 16/17 - 2,02
3. Solskjaer 20/21 - 1,93
4. Solskjaer 19/20 - 1,92
5. van Gaal 14/15 - 1,82.

Oles best season is closer to the points haul of van Gaal than the best season under Mourinho, even the season van Gaal got sacked had a ppm of 1,80. How people can claim Ole has done better than Mourinho is just bizarre.

Avg. goals scored pr match:
1. Solskjaer 20/21 - 2,15
2. Solskjaer 19/20 - 1,92
3. Mourinho 18/19 - 1,88
4. Mourinho 17/18 - 1,80

No doubt we score more under Ole, unfortunately goals scored doesn't equal points.

Avg. goals conceeded pr match:
1. Mourinho 18/19 - 1,79
2. Solskjaer 20/21 - 1,30
3. Solskjaer 18/19 - 1,21
4. Moyes 13/14 - 1,10

This is a really bad stat tbh, the defence last year was a shambles, and not looking any better this year tbh. That number is with one of the worlds most expensive defences.

Avg. goal difference pr match:
1. Mourinho 17/18 - 1,09
2. Solskjaer 19/20 - 1,02
3. Mourinho 16/17 - 0,92
4. Solskjaer 20/21 - 0,85


Win-% :
1. Mourinho 17/18 - 66,07%
2. Mourinho 16/17 - 57,81%
3. Solskjaer 20/21 - 57,38%
4. Solskjaer 19/20 - 55,74%

Again, how people can claim Solskjaer is the best manager after Fergie I don't think I'll ever understand.

 

[Anustart89]

At the end league finishes are a fair metric as in a given season everyone in the league faces the same opposition from the same season twice.
Points across several seasons don’t matter to me.

Points across several seasons do matter because if every season, you’re only able to pick up 70 points, you might end up finishing differently in the league table due to emergence of other teams and weakening of others, but the matter of fact is that regardless of how good the other teams are, you only managed to pick up 61% of available points, which says more about your quality as a team than Liverpool’s performance does, or Frank Lampard’s.

It’s staggering to me that people really judge the progress of Manchester United not by what Manchester United do on the pitch, but rather on what the 19 other clubs do. I mean, if Liverpool didn’t have a massive crisis and they didn’t stick with their own club legend, it’s not inconceivable that we end in 4th place last season (with literally the same performances). That would lead posters on here to change their conclusions as to whether we’re becoming better as a football team at defeating our opponents, which is frankly bonkers.

 

[Bebestation]

How many players has Ole bought? How many more does he need for it to be 'his team'? How much more money needs to be spent?
So far he has spent £400 mill+ and never bought a central midfielder...err...apart from the one he did buy and refuses to play, (Bruno is more of a SS). Surely that means Ole is happy with his midfield. In fact he shoehorns another world cup winning midfielder over to the left to accomodate his preference.
Its just excuse after excuse for Ole, just because he is a legend here as a player. My favourite player of all time is Robbo, but I wouldnt touch him with a bargepole to be Man Utd manager.

How many times do I have to tell you that I am not saying this as an excuse. That I do not look at this as Ole's ability to win a blood title.

All I am saying is that I have a feeling that I will value an Ole midfielder more than a Zidane midfielder (his signings are shocking) or a conte midfielder (where his signings are up and down).

If ole does the January transfer window (signing the midfielder he wants) and then gets sacked in February then I am happy for the first thing and you should be happy about the 2nd thing.

We both get the things we want. This isn't me making an excuse for him. Midfielders dictate how a team play and he hasn't bought a single one. I like every single player he has bought at United so I want him to buy some in the next transfer window.

If he gets sacked then fine so be it - then atleast his midfielders will control a bit of how the next managers midfield will play rather than having still Mourinho's.

 

[OleBoiii]

Again, how people can claim Solskjaer is the best manager after Fergie I don't think I'll ever understand.

For several reasons, but the most important one is this: Ole is the only manager yet to collapse or fail. If he was sacked tomorrow, then he'd be the only manager post Fergie who continuously kept improving and never failed to get CL football after a full season.

Had Mourinho gotten sacked right after his second season(for whatever reason), then I(and probably most others) would have considered him a better manager, as he would have achieved the same as Ole but with two minor trophies as well. Although his football was less entertaining and his signings were quite hit-and-miss compared to Ole's signings, so there would probably be some posters who'd still rate Ole higher from a "holistic" point of view.

 

[OpenIntrovert]

People here think Pep and Klopp will do wonders with the squad without understanding the squad we have and the type of players those 2 want.

Pep and Klopp are commonly mistaken as good tacticians. A good tactician is one who is able to set tactics that make the most of his squad like Tuchel, Mourinho, Ancelotti and Ole. If you pay close attention to our squad, only 3 of Ole's signings are in the first team while the rest are remnants from previous management. Despite our squad being severely unbalanced where we have excellent attackers but a incompetent midfield, Ole has managed to create 3 types of formations to bring the best out of the squad (4-2-3-1, 3-4-1-2 and 4-4-2 diamond).

OTOH, Pep and Klopp believe in systems where Pep is more towards the total football school of thought and Klopp is geggenpressing. In other words, they shape the squads to suit the system rather than setting tactics that can get the best out of the squad. Nothing wrong with shaping a squad to fit the system, but this shows that they are incapable of setting tactics for a squad that does not have the player profiles they need.

The biggest evidence that Klopp and Pep can only work with squads that suit their system is in the number of current first team players bought under previous management. When Klopp won his first trophy (Champions league), only Dejan Lovren, Jordan Henderson, Adam Lallana and Roberto Firminho from the previous management remained as part of the first team where Henderson and Firminho are the only ones to feature more in starting lineup.

As for Pep, he already inherited a squad that had alot of intelligent attacking players such as De Bruyne, Silva, Sterling, Aguero with players like Vincent Kompany, Toure, Fernandinho supporting the defence, central and defensive midfield. It is certainly a squad comparable with the current Manchester United squad and although some of the players were aging, they were still good enough to win the 2016/17 season. Yet he still added 2 goalkeepers (Ederson and Bravo), 2 left backs (Benjamin Mendy, Zinchenko), 2 right backs (Walker, Danilo), a center back (Laporte), a central midfielder (Gundogan), 2 wingers (Leroy Sane and Bernado Silva) and a striker (Gabriel Jesus) to win the EPL and carling cup during the 2017/18 season.

Basically both Pep and Klopp could not make most of the squads they inherited as most of the players did not fit their system. Compare that to Ole who has setup tactics to work with the squad he inherited (more unbalanced than the squads Pep and Klopp inherited) where only 3 of his signings are ever present in the starting lineup (Maguire, Wan Bissaka and Fernandes) and still managed to progress to 3rd and 2nd place in consecutive seasons.

 

[roonster09]

Perhaps a more interesting question is apart from Pep and Klopp, could any other manager on the planet win the league this season with this United team?

Anyone thought Chelsea are good enough to win CL and will be fighting for PL title when Lampard was in charge? We dont need Klopp or Pep. There are many good managers who brings best out of the team, once they do that they way this squad is rated will change completely.