Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion

[Mainoldo]

I will say this, you're great at avoiding questions and moving goalposts. Oh, and making insulting remarks, you're good at that too. It's tiresome, but whatever floats your boat.

To take your responses at face value:
- you don't think we dominated the game against Norwich last week;
- the football under LVG was better than it is now;
- you can't tell the difference between Jose's tactics and Ole's;
- your only explanation for how we are 5th is that we have "good players", which implies that coaching isn't that important;

Is that really what you think? If not, what have I misunderstood in your answers? (I know, I know, you will want to answer me with an insult, but you know, try to rise above it)

Because taken together those views aren't coherent and definitely don't say much for your ability to judge...well...anything.

Thank you it’s a skill.

You keep asking for answers but I give you them and you just overlook them and fail to give me a reason to why what I’ve said was wrong. Except for repeating I don’t know what I’m talking about.

We won 4-0 we didn’t dominate from start to finish. We beat Newcastle 4-1 too we didn’t dominate that either.. We looked as clueless as we always do until the goal.

Football under LVG is exactly the same as now. Different styles but still pragmatic and boring. However atleast he had a style.

Well if you have better players than the opposition you might find that even tactics and a good playing style isn’t enough. Pretty much how you end up beating Norwich 4-0. You said you play football didn’t you? So when you play for your little Sunday league team does your tactics outdo your opposition or do you normally just have better players? (Lowest level analogy mind you)

You can get your head around that if you want to. But I’d rather you just answer my question on what type of football do we play?

 

[chromepaxos]

You keep asking for answers but I give you them and you just overlook them and fail to give me a reason to why what I’ve said was wrong. [...]
We won 4-0 we didn’t dominate from start to finish. We beat Newcastle 4-1 too we didn’t dominate that either.. We looked as clueless as we always do until the goal.

Football under LVG is exactly the same as now. Different styles but still pragmatic and boring. However atleast he had a style.

Well if you have better players than the opposition you might find that even tactics and a good playing style isn’t enough. Pretty much how you end up beating Norwich 4-0. You said you play football didn’t you? So when you play for your little Sunday league team does your tactics outdo your opposition or do you normally just have better players? (Lowest level analogy mind you)

You can get your head around that if you want to. But I’d rather you just answer my question on what type of football do we play?

 

[chromepaxos]

Thank you it’s a skill.

You keep asking for answers but I give you them and you just overlook them and fail to give me a reason to why what I’ve said was wrong. Except for repeating I don’t know what I’m talking about.

We won 4-0 we didn’t dominate from start to finish. We beat Newcastle 4-1 too we didn’t dominate that either.. We looked as clueless as we always do until the goal.

Football under LVG is exactly the same as now. Different styles but still pragmatic and boring. However atleast he had a style.

Well if you have better players than the opposition you might find that even tactics and a good playing style isn’t enough. Pretty much how you end up beating Norwich 4-0. You said you play football didn’t you? So when you play for your little Sunday league team does your tactics outdo your opposition or do you normally just have better players? (Lowest level analogy mind you)

You can get your head around that if you want to. But I’d rather you just answer my question on what type of football do we play?

This is the first time you have actually answered a question - well done. Now if you just try and get the sneering under control you might become a nicer person. :-)

Quick points:
a) Since your view is that the football under LVG was "exactly the same as now [...] pragmatic and boring" then I understand why you seem to be committed to Ole-out. LVG's football with us was fkn terrible.
b) Since Ole's football is completely different to LVG's (in my view), no wonder we are talking past each other. Our understanding of football is on different planets.
c) You keep asking for a simple answer to "what's Ole's tactics" or "what type of football" does he play, and I keep giving you an answer, just one that you don't like, which is the answer is complicated. Your analysis of how the Liverpool game might go is fair, but it doesn't say much, if anything, about Ole's coaching style. Can I suggest that what you're viewing as his style, is actually mostly just a set of in-game tactics to cope with a thin squad, a shitty injury-prevention regime and an almost non-existent midfield? I suspect he wants to play as he has stated a million times: on the front foot all the time, but I don't think that's possible with the current squad.

Help me understand your POV. Two questions:
- what proportion of a team's success comes from the quality of the players, and what from the coaching? 90:10? 60;40?
- on a scale of 1-10, with 1 being the best EPL manager and 10 the worst, what score would you give Ole?

 

[RedSky]

We won 4-0 we didn’t dominate from start to finish. We beat Newcastle 4-1 too we didn’t dominate that either.. We looked as clueless as we always do until the goal.

We didn't dominate Newcastle? We won by 3 goals, had almost 75% possession, Newcastle only had 2 shots on goal while we had 10. We had a slow opening 20minutes and controlled the other 70.

I'm curious what you would consider domination... the full 90mins?

 

[ZenMaster Coltrane]

^^ Your entire argument is flawed if you're using 5th position as some metric. Go back over the last 10 seasons and look at what place that point total gets you at the corresponding point in the season. Well he is the worst manager in the league.

And please explain the trigger points of the OGS pressing system and how the structure and effectiveness compares to Arteta's who's been in charge for 5 games. What's the % of balls won back in the final third? What's the % of chances created from those? These are things that matter.

4-0 scorelines against the bottom team followed up by dismal or pedestrian displays tell you hardly anything. Dominating involves waves and waves of pressure when the opposing team can hardly breath. And it's not likely to be achieved over the full 90 minutes but top teams can put 45-70 minutes of absolute aggressive control. Teams can have runs of 10-20 minutes where the energy is max and the execution is almost flawless and the game is over. This isn't the same thing as, capitalizing on a bad pass back and 2 minutes later getting a penalty. That's not what people are referring to when talking about 'dominating'.

The XG in that Newcastle game was 2. It doesn't even qualify from a expected goals standpoint.

 

[chromepaxos]

We didn't dominate Newcastle? We won by 3 goals, had almost 75% possession, Newcastle only had 2 shots on goal while we had 10. We had a slow opening 20minutes and controlled the other 70.
I'm curious what you would consider domination... the full 90mins?

I'm interested in the answer to this too. @Mainoldo has said a good example of a game he thinks exhibits domination is when we beat Liverpool under LVG, but my recollection of that game is that Sterling had three 1-on-1s with De Gea and we were rescued multiple times by De Gea's brilliance. But apparently we were better than we were against Newcastle.

It's hard to make sense of it, tbh. I'm interested in his explanation.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Dominating the scoreline and the football match over the course of the 90 minutes are too different things, for me. Proper domination, especially against weaker teams are those when you win easily, rack up some 20 odd shots on goal and were absolutely all over the opposition.

We've not done it much under Ole. It was the same under the other managers. All of them I imagine achieved it once in awhile. On the other hand City do it rarely regularly, those matches where they're toying with opponents.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

^^ Your entire argument is flawed if you're using 5th position as some metric.

Noticed that. Didn't think 5th place was considered worthy of praise these days.

 

[chromepaxos]

^^ Your entire argument is flawed if you're using 5th position as some metric. Go back over the last 10 seasons and look at what place that point total gets you at the corresponding point in the season. Well he is the worst manager in the league.

And please explain the trigger points of the OGS pressing system and how the structure and effectiveness compares to Arteta's who's been in charge for 5 games. What's the % of balls won back in the final third? What's the % of chances created from those? These are things that matter.

4-0 scorelines against the bottom team followed up by dismal or pedestrian displays tell you hardly anything. Dominating involves waves and waves of pressure when the opposing team can hardly breath. And it's not likely to be achieved over the full 90 minutes but top teams can put 45-70 minutes of absolute aggressive control. Teams can have runs of 10-20 minutes where the energy is max and the execution is almost flawless and the game is over. This isn't the same thing as, capitalizing on a bad pass back and 2 minutes later getting a penalty. That's not what people are referring to when talking about 'dominating'.

The XG in that Newcastle game was 2. It doesn't even qualify from a expected goals standpoint.

I'm not using 5th as some kind of metric. It's just our current position. Not sure why that's confusing.

As for the rest, Arsenal have won one game in their last last five in the PL. Arteta may turn out great (I suspect he will - I like him a lot), but there's no evidence yet. Only two teams in the league show the ability to dominate in the way you describe. Does that make every other manager crap? It is so weird, all these EPL teams in the top 30 richest teams in the world, and yet all but two have crappy managers.

Maybe, just maybe, real football isn't as simple as FM? And maybe teams going through a rebuild have to, you know, adapt to the weaknesses in their squads?

 

[ZenMaster Coltrane]

I'm not using 5th as some kind of metric. It's just our current position. Not sure why that's confusing.

As for the rest, Arsenal have won one game in their last last five in the PL. Arteta may turn out great (I suspect he will - I like him a lot), but there's no evidence yet. Only two teams in the league show the ability to dominate in the way you describe. Does that make every other manager crap? It is so weird, all these EPL teams in the top 30 richest teams in the world, and yet all but two have crappy managers.

Maybe, just maybe, real football isn't as simple as FM? And maybe teams going through a rebuild have to, you know, adapt to the weaknesses in their squads?

Who's talking about FM? The Norwegian league is his level. What ludicrous team in a top league is even interviewing him after his stay at United ends?

And yes, you are implicitly using the table position in your entire "Woe is Ole, he's doing better than boring LVG (in some way), are we in 5th because of the players?" thesis. The current point total is 7-9th in most seasons. You're looking at results for teams that aren't even competing for the top 3 places. If you're a club with ambition and purchasing power to win a league then systems, styles and performance levels matter most when assessing a manager when they're totally out of the title race. Can I see the groundwork for a title competing side? ABSOLUTELY f***ing NOT! The Plan A isn't' anywhere near good enough over the course of 38 games and it still wouldn't be good enough with better players.

Arteta's ideas and coaching are superior. I've seen enough already and that's the point. Whether he's at a club where he can get enough quality players to win the league is another matter. But great and good managers get players and the team as a whole to perform to their max. Hasenhuttl is 50x the manager OGS is. Daniel Farke is rumored to be going to Dortmund at some point. OGS the coach is going back to Norway.

 

[mu4c_20le]

Who's talking about FM? The Norwegian league is his level. What ludicrous team in a top league is even interviewing him after his stay at United ends?

"In demand" is a weird metric to judge someone by. I've seen people use it for transfer targets as well; "if no other big club is looking at him, he must be shite"

 

[Rhyme Animal]

Well you have to come up with something when you're an OGS acolyte when he doesn't possess the qualities of an elite manager. He lacks the fundamentals...he's not a leader, he has no charisma, he's not a cutting edge tactical thinker. You knew right away what you were getting...sentimental BS that makes some people feel good because it reminds them of a golden era. This stuff works in politics because it's an emotional appeal. On the football pitch, it doesn't translate into winning. OGS never had it (and that's just the way it is)...that intuitive sense to read people, to hire top people around you, to know how to motivate people etc...There's this energy, a force of personality. It doesn't take 10 years as a manager to develop that. You have it or your don't. Your tactics can evolve, you can learn from different situations but there are core attributes that you can see from the get go with any top coach.



What does this even mean? He's a league one coach but he name drops players from the SAF era while indulging in sentimental babble, so he should stay??? Hell no.

I'd be interested for this fanbase to take a logic/football IQ test to really see the dividing lines of how people assess this stuff. It's mind blowing.

If you take the Star Wars film production as an analogy. You basically have a merchandising franchise recycling nostalgia...story and characters are secondary at this point. More than ever, it's about selling baby Yodas. Now Kathleen Kennedy (who tons of people criticize) has picked directors and then sent them packing during pre-production. So, you have a gargantuan derivative movie franchise that many people believe is being mishandled and yet the 'CEO' still has the sense to cut losses when things are not proceeding accordingly (from her POV). Now Kathleen Kennedy is not some inept out of her depth Woodward clone but she's at the head of a film franchise that is currently at a low point (propped up by relatively positive responses for The Mandalorian) but you know what she's not doing... going and picking out some guy or girl who graduated 10 years ago from film school, who's been shooting cannabis videos in the intervening period, and tasking them to shoot the next film.

Wonderful username, wonderful post, interesting writing...

Promote this individual!

 

[ZenMaster Coltrane]

^^No other big club? We're talking 60 teams minimum. And none of those 60 teams will look at his 10 year track record as a manager and go "Yeah, that's the guy!" nor will they look to a former player and go "Yeah, he was a suber-sub under our best manager, he has his coaching badges, go get 'em". He has 10 years of management. That's the metric.

 

[mu4c_20le]

^ and you are judging Arteta by a 5 game metric, correct?

 

[chromepaxos]

Who's talking about FM? The Norwegian league is his level. What ludicrous team in a top league is even interviewing him after his stay at United ends?

And yes, you are implicitly using the table position in your entire "Woe is Ole, he's doing better than boring LVG (in some way), are we in 5th because of the players?" thesis.

What's fascinating about you Ole-out obsessives is that as a group you consistently invent straw-men to argue with. It's almost clinical. I literally have no idea where you have got the "thesis" you describe above. It isn't within a mile of anything I've said.

And then the over-the-top view of Ole. He may not be the best manager around, or the one to take us back to the top. I have my doubts myself. But you have reached an extreme view without the evidence to support it.

Can I see the groundwork for a title competing side? ABSOLUTELY f***ing NOT! The Plan A isn't' anywhere near good enough over the course of 38 games and it still wouldn't be good enough with better players. Arteta's ideas and coaching are superior. I've seen enough already and that's the point. Whether he's at a club where he can get enough quality players to win the league is another matter. But great and good managers get players and the team as a whole to perform to their max. Hasenhuttl is 50x the manager OGS is. Daniel Farke is rumored to be going to Dortmund at some point. OGS the coach is going back to Norway.

I like Arteta but the jury is very much out on whether he can actually get results without having Pep's budget. I like Hasenhuttl and Farke too, though neither have shown that they have the ability to build a team to dominate in the way that has been described. I suspect they may be better coaches than Ole, but coaching is not even close to being the entirety of the job that he is doing.

Let me ask, when you are so adamant in your view that Ole is crap and obviously way out of his depth, why exactly do you think the players obviously have faith in him and are playing their hearts out for him? Are they, as one of your Ole-out colleagues said yesterday, simply "stupid"?

 

[Gasolin]

What's fascinating about you Ole-out obsessives is that as a group you consistently invent straw-men to argue with. It's almost clinical. I literally have no idea where you have got the "thesis" you describe above. It isn't within a mile of anything I've said.

And then the over-the-top view of Ole. He may not be the best manager around, or the one to take us back to the top. I have my doubts myself. But you have reached an extreme view without the evidence to support it.



I like Arteta but the jury is very much out on whether he can actually get results without having Pep's budget. I like Hasenhuttl and Farke too, though neither have shown that they have the ability to build a team to dominate in the way that has been described. I suspect they may be better coaches than Ole, but coaching is not even close to being the entirety of the job that he is doing.

Let me ask, when you are so adamant in your view that Ole is crap and obviously way out of his depth, why exactly do you think the players obviously have faith in him and are playing their hearts out for him? Are they, as one of your Ole-out colleagues said yesterday, simply "stupid"?

Apparently they are stupid according to the Ole our crowd. I think the exact words are that they’re so s*** they’re afraid another manager may not play them. Yeah...

 

[Eriku]

What's fascinating about you Ole-out obsessives is that as a group you consistently invent straw-men to argue with. It's almost clinical. I literally have no idea where you have got the "thesis" you describe above. It isn't within a mile of anything I've said.

And then the over-the-top view of Ole. He may not be the best manager around, or the one to take us back to the top. I have my doubts myself. But you have reached an extreme view without the evidence to support it.



I like Arteta but the jury is very much out on whether he can actually get results without having Pep's budget. I like Hasenhuttl and Farke too, though neither have shown that they have the ability to build a team to dominate in the way that has been described. I suspect they may be better coaches than Ole, but coaching is not even close to being the entirety of the job that he is doing.

Let me ask, when you are so adamant in your view that Ole is crap and obviously way out of his depth, why exactly do you think the players obviously have faith in him and are playing their hearts out for him? Are they, as one of your Ole-out colleagues said yesterday, simply "stupid"?

I love how Arteta is brought up as obviously better than Ole. When Ole had been at the wheel for as long as Arteta, he had us looking like world beaters. Funny how we don't need to be patient with Arteta before we start using him as a rod to beat Ole with, straight in.

 

[Wumminator]

I love how Arteta is brought up as obviously better than Ole. When Ole had been at the wheel for as long as Arteta, he had us looking like world beaters. Funny how we don't need to be patient with Arteta before we start using him as a rod to beat Ole with, straight in.

No no, you see Arteta has a style you can summarise in three lines so he is a better manager despite his awful results.

 

[Andersonson]

^^No other big club? We're talking 60 teams minimum. And none of those 60 teams will look at his 10 year track record as a manager and go "Yeah, that's the guy!" nor will they look to a former player and go "Yeah, he was a suber-sub under our best manager, he has his coaching badges, go get 'em". He has 10 years of management. That's the metric.

But you judge Arteta after what, 6 games?

Do you think Ole is a better or worse manager than LvG? Jose? Moyes?

How do you compare them?

Do you agree that Ole has done well with the youngsters and that they are improving?

 

[lysglimt]

You must think i care. I just want a simple answer. But it's kind of hard getting it out of you Ole defenders.. always got excuses... If you dont' think "Pep-ball" is good football i couldn't give two monkeys and a hippo.

But do us a favour give me something to bloody work with. What is good football.... what style do you see when you watch United play and are me 'pragmatic or offensive...

You would think Red Cafe is filled with politicians the way you dodge simple questions.

I think you are constantly complaining and refusing to see anything positive so I was very tempted to ignore this, but I will make one exception and respond to you.

What is good football ? At the end of the day - there are many things that are good football. I am not gonna restrict myself to saying - Pep's football is good football, or Jurgen Klopps football is good football. Watching a player dribble past 3 players and score can be good football, or watching the one-touch goal Arsenal scored those years ago with Jack Wilshere involved - now that can be good football. But rolling the ball around at the back for minutes generally doesn't excite me. Maybe to me the best football is a team that succeeds in playing both individually and as a team. I can tell you this much though - the player outside United that I enjoyed watching the most was Matthew Le Tissier, because he displayed a skill with the ball that I have not seen from anyone else in the Premier League. If he had played together with Cantona, Giggs, Kanchelskis etc - he would have made us an even bigger joy to watch. At Southampton you only remember him for his spectacular goals, but his footballing brains was so far above everyone at Southampton, we never really got to see how good he could have been as a team-player.

To me good football is depending on whether you succeed in what you are doing - because everyone wants to create chances. There is no manager in the Premier League who tells his players do not create chances, play defensively and don't attack if you see a chance. If Norwich succeed in what they are doing - they play wonderful football. They just rarely do, because their players generally aren't good enough to play attacking football the way Farke wants them to. Good football to me is also about being able to play in different ways as it increases your chances of succeeding in what you want to do. Did Alex Fergusons teams have one way of playing football ? Of course not - they could counter teams with blistering pace, they could outplay teams with the visions and passes of Carrick, Scholes and Cantona. They could dribble past players and score. And they could kick opponents out of the game - just ask Reyes. But it's worth noticing that this is impossible to do without the right players - no manager can get his team to play exactly like they want from day one because he doesn't have the players for it. That's why it took Ferguson and Klopp 3-4-5 years to get a proper team. And how quickly you get it depends entirely how fast you can get the right players in. Klopp did some really shrewd business in say...Salah, Matip, Robertson and Wijnaldum which saved Liverpool enough money to sign van Dijk - fair play to him. And suddenly they had their players in place to play his style of football. We realistically are 2-3 quality players away from being at top-side. If we get those players, I believe we are in a position to strike once this Liverpool-side reaches the end of their cycle. They have a lot of players in the late 20s who realistically will have to start being replaced by 2022 - and by then we need to have created a really strong side who can play this fluid football I want us to play.

I was extremely critical towards Mourinho - not because of the style of football he apparently wanted his players to play, but mostly because the players he played and signed never seemed to be correct for his kind of football. Playing Zlatan as a lone striker in a counter-attacking team makes zero sense as Zlatans only weakness in football was his pace. Logically - why would you play with a low pressure if you don't have really quick players - it made no sense. Playing counter-attacking with James, Rashford and Martial makes sense. But United need to be able to change their style - and agreed, they struggled with it in the beginning of the season. They struggled a lot. At the same time I was critical of LvG because he played a possession-based football with zero penetration - nothing ever happened. To me it looks like OGS wants a more fluid style where we can play counter-attacking in some games, and play possession based in other matches, but the key seems to be high pressure.

Are we there yet ? Absolutely not. Are we a lot closer than we were in august ? Absolutely. So when people complain about us not being good enough yet, I don't have a problem with that. We still aren't good enough. When people complain about us not showing progress - they are either stupid, lying or have an agenda. This could of course turn around in 3 weeks time. If we go on a run where we lose 4 games in a row, there will have been no progress. But at this point in time when we have won something like 8 of the last 13 games - anyone saying that isn't progress compared to earlier is just stupid. Especially as we now on average score about 2 goals pr game.

But 4-1 against Newcastle, 2-0 against Burnley, and 4-0 against Norwich is to me another sign that we are starting to get it right. You like to use the word excuses. The fact is everyone knew we were light in midfield even with a functioning Pogba, to be without him for the entire season and then lose McTominay for maybe 2 months, that made OGS job a lot harder. It's not an excuse - it's a fact. You could of course argue that he should have pushed harder to get a new midfielder in during the summer, and he probably made some mistakes there. Maybe he expected more from Lingard, maybe he thought Pereira would stamp his authority on games more than he has done. But maybe he realized it wouldn't work and handed Woodward a list of 5 players and Woodward didn't deliver either. We don't know.

OGS has however been crystal clear about one thing from day one: He will not sign players to save his job. He will only save players that will improve United in the long run, regardless of how that affects his chances to save his job. One should believe that should earn him a bit of respect, a manager who actually thinks the future of United is more important than his own ego and his job.

 

[lysglimt]

I think it is funny when he keeps talking about “when I was playing” like he was some important part of the team. He never was - only a sub, never part of the first eleven under SAF.

He did score 126 goals and started 217 games - I guess he is entitled to feel like an important part of the team

 

[Flexdegea]

I think when Arteta was mentioned this thread has collapsed on itself from the weight of the bullsh#t that's went on before it.



Too much contradiction, nonsense and unrealistic expectations is all I see.


Knives will be sharpened tomorrow if we dont get a result against the best club currently in Europe, even with the injuries we have, sign of the times.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

Should this really be a debate? Ole has come in and is fixing the mess Ed and our previous managers caused. Progress is being made in that area, new transfer policy, promotion youth, clearing deadwood etc all these has been mentioned several times because it's signs of fecking progress. We finally have a plan and direction we are following.

The squad has been dismantled and a new one is being built again but there's a clear plan that we haven't had since. As I said we've been making progress since Ole took over. Now what we need to do is improve performances and results because it's like we have reached our peak or limit when it comes to performances and results with these current players. We already know what to expect with this team, the occasional team performance where we play well, the next games we look clueless, the next we play counter attack and win. It's been like that for a while now and If these performances and results don't improve with the addition of new players and we're still playing counter attack Or getting bodied by smaller teams then it is Ole who has reached his limit and he has to go. Simple as.

Ptogress has been made with Ole even though it hasn't happened on the pitch but it is still progress. Now performances and results have to improve because if they don't we will pretty much become stagnant.

 

[Mainoldo]

I think you are constantly complaining and refusing to see anything positive so I was very tempted to ignore this, but I will make one exception and respond to you.

What is good football ? At the end of the day - there are many things that are good football. I am not gonna restrict myself to saying - Pep's football is good football, or Jurgen Klopps football is good football. Watching a player dribble past 3 players and score can be good football, or watching the one-touch goal Arsenal scored those years ago with Jack Wilshere involved - now that can be good football. But rolling the ball around at the back for minutes generally doesn't excite me. Maybe to me the best football is a team that succeeds in playing both individually and as a team. I can tell you this much though - the player outside United that I enjoyed watching the most was Matthew Le Tissier, because he displayed a skill with the ball that I have not seen from anyone else in the Premier League. If he had played together with Cantona, Giggs, Kanchelskis etc - he would have made us an even bigger joy to watch. At Southampton you only remember him for his spectacular goals, but his footballing brains was so far above everyone at Southampton, we never really got to see how good he could have been as a team-player.

To me good football is depending on whether you succeed in what you are doing - because everyone wants to create chances. There is no manager in the Premier League who tells his players do not create chances, play defensively and don't attack if you see a chance. If Norwich succeed in what they are doing - they play wonderful football. They just rarely do, because their players generally aren't good enough to play attacking football the way Farke wants them to. Good football to me is also about being able to play in different ways as it increases your chances of succeeding in what you want to do. Did Alex Fergusons teams have one way of playing football ? Of course not - they could counter teams with blistering pace, they could outplay teams with the visions and passes of Carrick, Scholes and Cantona. They could dribble past players and score. And they could kick opponents out of the game - just ask Reyes. But it's worth noticing that this is impossible to do without the right players - no manager can get his team to play exactly like they want from day one because he doesn't have the players for it. That's why it took Ferguson and Klopp 3-4-5 years to get a proper team. And how quickly you get it depends entirely how fast you can get the right players in. Klopp did some really shrewd business in say...Salah, Matip, Robertson and Wijnaldum which saved Liverpool enough money to sign van Dijk - fair play to him. And suddenly they had their players in place to play his style of football. We realistically are 2-3 quality players away from being at top-side. If we get those players, I believe we are in a position to strike once this Liverpool-side reaches the end of their cycle. They have a lot of players in the late 20s who realistically will have to start being replaced by 2022 - and by then we need to have created a really strong side who can play this fluid football I want us to play.

I was extremely critical towards Mourinho - not because of the style of football he apparently wanted his players to play, but mostly because the players he played and signed never seemed to be correct for his kind of football. Playing Zlatan as a lone striker in a counter-attacking team makes zero sense as Zlatans only weakness in football was his pace. Logically - why would you play with a low pressure if you don't have really quick players - it made no sense. Playing counter-attacking with James, Rashford and Martial makes sense. But United need to be able to change their style - and agreed, they struggled with it in the beginning of the season. They struggled a lot. At the same time I was critical of LvG because he played a possession-based football with zero penetration - nothing ever happened. To me it looks like OGS wants a more fluid style where we can play counter-attacking in some games, and play possession based in other matches, but the key seems to be high pressure.

Are we there yet ? Absolutely not. Are we a lot closer than we were in august ? Absolutely. So when people complain about us not being good enough yet, I don't have a problem with that. We still aren't good enough. When people complain about us not showing progress - they are either stupid, lying or have an agenda. This could of course turn around in 3 weeks time. If we go on a run where we lose 4 games in a row, there will have been no progress. But at this point in time when we have won something like 8 of the last 13 games - anyone saying that isn't progress compared to earlier is just stupid. Especially as we now on average score about 2 goals pr game.

But 4-1 against Newcastle, 2-0 against Burnley, and 4-0 against Norwich is to me another sign that we are starting to get it right. You like to use the word excuses. The fact is everyone knew we were light in midfield even with a functioning Pogba, to be without him for the entire season and then lose McTominay for maybe 2 months, that made OGS job a lot harder. It's not an excuse - it's a fact. You could of course argue that he should have pushed harder to get a new midfielder in during the summer, and he probably made some mistakes there. Maybe he expected more from Lingard, maybe he thought Pereira would stamp his authority on games more than he has done. But maybe he realized it wouldn't work and handed Woodward a list of 5 players and Woodward didn't deliver either. We don't know.

OGS has however been crystal clear about one thing from day one: He will not sign players to save his job. He will only save players that will improve United in the long run, regardless of how that affects his chances to save his job. One should believe that should earn him a bit of respect, a manager who actually thinks the future of United is more important than his own ego and his job.

Well atleast you answered the question. The games you mentioned bar Norwich was just as boring as Southampton or Leicester or Crystal Palace earlier in the season. Only difference the score line. I’d you notice aswel we won by opponents making mistakes.. like as I said how Mourinho plays football. It’s not different Ole has just removed the toxic cloud.

I like your piece on what you enjoy though.. wasn’t particularly a Le Tissier fan myself great talent but wouldn’t have looked good here.. you had to be more than just talent. Hence why Cantona ‘shites’ all over him. No disrespect to him though. I use to like Ian Woam but I accept he wasn’t top level.

As for the top of football don’t you believe in levels in comparisons with that to? I mean yes you need good players to execute it but wouldn’t you have agreed for instance.. hiring LVG to play possession football.... a club with a plan would have hired someone who improved that style of football. I.e. Guardiola?

 

[Jeffthered]

Good grief. Did you come off your meds? Calm down.

Ignoring all your hysteria, I suggest the issue is exactly that you want a "simple answer" to what is a complicated question. Are we attacking or defensive? The correct answer is "yes". If you don't understand that then it's hard to talk tactics with you at all.

Every Premier League team has enough money to recruit a top-top manager from anywhere in the world. Within that group, Ole has us 5th, with two of the managers ahead of us perhaps in the top 10 managers in history. Either you believe that managers/coaches don't have an effect (if you believe that then the passion of your criticisms of Ole is just weird), or you think managers are important in which case our position in the table challenges your view: Ole can't both be crap and in the leading group of the richest league in the world, can he?

For you, it seems to come down to is he "attacking or defensive", "what's his tactics?" and, he "doesn't have a clue how to coach." Has it occurred to you that it might be a tad more complicated than you think? I noticed that some of the Ole-out crowd have been struggling to understand what culture means, don't think we have been playing better this season than in the last five, and think our players are both stupid and inept. Not sure if you would put yourself in that group, but don't those views seem...simplistic to you?

If all that you say is true: Ed is crap, Ole is crap, our squad is crap, Ole can't coach...it is astonishing that we are 5th. What is your explanation for our position?

'.....perhaps in the top 10 managers in history....'
When I read such statements, this is when I do worry. To suggest that Klopp is one of the best of the 10 managers in history... based on what? Have you really considered that statement? Pep, v possibly, as he has had a massive impact on how the game is played across the world, and for over a decade now. Success in different countries etc... yes , Pep is a defining manager in footballing terms. Klopp is superb, definitely. But not sure he is top 10 etc.

'....Ole can't both be crap and in the leading group of the richest league in the world, can he?...'

Oh yes he can, and it is the reason for this ongoing debate (hence the title of this forum...).. because OGS has proved nothing except how unconvincing he is. Are you convinced by him? Are the players? Are our performances convincing? results? Progress? You tell me what OGS has done that is convincing to you. The guy is average. An average record. And average manager. With an average mindset (if that makes any sense..). The current quality of the premiership is average. It is competitive, and has lots of hype etc ... but aside from Liverpool, and City, who are the really good, consistent sides in the Premiership? Possibly Leicester (that's right, the mighty Leicester City...), and even they are showing their vulnerabilties, which, due to the overall quality of their squad, is not surprising. So yes, you can be crap in this league and be fifth. And Man Utd, a club of this size, with this resource, being in 5th is no celebration or cause for satisfaction. It is, in my opinion, a massive disappointment. Only the like of OGS try and suggest otherwise. Look at Leicester ffs! You telling me you are happy being comfortably far behind that side this season? What sort of standards do some of fans accept now? That we can be a few places behind Leicester, and fight to remain 5th?

That's our standards now?

I am fed up with it. OGS takes us nowhere. That's why we are fifth, and even staying there will be a fight. If that is satisfactory to you, if that is a sign of a good manager, then that's your opinion. But I expect United fans to expect , demand even, a whole, whole lot better!

 

[onetwo3oclock4oclockrock]

We are now 22 matches into the season. If we look at the first 11 league games vs the last 11 league games, progress is clearly being made.
First 11: 13 points, 13 goals scored
Last 11: 21 points, 23 goals scored

76% more goals scored, 62% more points gained.

 

[Odin]

I believe in the ongoing process and progress being made (as pointed out by eg. onetwo3oclock4oclockrock), but I don't expect everyone to do so. Do I feel fine with Ole for now? Yes. Is he going to take us all the way? I don't know yet, let's see how this season ends. As for the Ole-ut-now crowd? Keyboard warriors demanding instant gratification, on a web-forum... who'd have thought that?

 

[lysglimt]

Well atleast you answered the question. The games you mentioned bar Norwich was just as boring as Southampton or Leicester or Crystal Palace earlier in the season. Only difference the score line. I’d you notice aswel we won by opponents making mistakes.. like as I said how Mourinho plays football. It’s not different Ole has just removed the toxic cloud.

I like your piece on what you enjoy though.. wasn’t particularly a Le Tissier fan myself great talent but wouldn’t have looked good here.. you had to be more than just talent. Hence why Cantona ‘shites’ all over him. No disrespect to him though. I use to like Ian Woam but I accept he wasn’t top level.

As for the top of football don’t you believe in levels in comparisons with that to? I mean yes you need good players to execute it but wouldn’t you have agreed for instance.. hiring LVG to play possession football.... a club with a plan would have hired someone who improved that style of football. I.e. Guardiola?

Well I never thought we would agree on everything - but at least you replied in an articulate and interesting manner - and credits to you for that. Agree to disagree ?

 

[matt10000]

I remember the days of LVG quite clearly and the football was the most horrendous, piece of garbage I have ever seen. It was robotic, repetitive and safe, and I even recall some bloke falling asleep AT THE STADIUM, it felt like torture to watch our games at the time.

Then came Mourinho and we did have a bright start, but as time went on the players was uninspired, safe once again, and the toxic environment only grew worse. I remember all the times we were desperate for a late goal, and we brought in Fellaini and De Gea with his incredible accurate passing ability would attempt to pass it to him. It was fecking dreadful.

And now we have Ole, whilst it can be argued if he is good enough to bring us back to the glory days, I haven't been this satisfied with any manager since Sir Alex's retirement. I mean, sure, some games have been absolutely dreadful, but most of the time I feel like I'm watching Manchester United again.

A big plus to that he has given a huge amount of responsibility to Rashford, one of our own, and he is now our star man in this team. He gave Martial his number 9 back, and even when he has an off day he can contribute directly to goal which is a huge improvement. We have Greenwood, Garner, William's, coming through the ranks and Ole is.managing them perfectly in my opinion. Ole's signings have been a great addition to the squad as well.

So after lot of juggling back and forth if I'm Ole in, or Ole out, I've decided that I'm neither. This team is incredibly young and inconsistent, and I have a really hard time thinking any manager would be able to pull something of with this team if they're not given time. To me Ole has proven at least that he can steady the ship, and promote youth, if he is the one to lifting the Premier League trophy with us is another question, but he has done a very good job of doing what is needed to get us back on track.

Getting the basics done right is the most important thing in a rebuild. Ole has cleared the deadwood, focused on the long term by giving youth a chance. I believe he will build a squad capable of competing for trophies, but not the one to execute it.

I will probably be slated for settling for mediocrity, but that's not the case really. I want United to be the best team in the world, but hiring new managers with conflicting ideas will only be an obstacle for our incredibly young teams potential.

Spot on.

You must think i care. I just want a simple answer. But it's kind of hard getting it out of you Ole defenders.. always got excuses... If you dont' think "Pep-ball" is good football i couldn't give two monkeys and a hippo.

But do us a favour give me something to bloody work with. What is good football.... what style do you see when you watch United play and are me 'pragmatic or offensive...

You would think Red Cafe is filled with politicians the way you dodge simple questions.

It is very very simple. Good football is the way that you set up and play with the players at your disposal in order to beat the opposition players in front of you.

Teams that consistently, have better players than the opposition all over the pitch have more freedom to choose to dominate in different ways and that is up to the manager. If there were no managers and coaches and you just let the players get in with it, I suspect the league would not be a million miles away from where the teams are now. If some teams had coaches and some didn’t then obviously the teams with coaches would be more organised and have an advantage.

There are unique managers who get the very best out of players who can add a bit more such as SAF.

Any manager who plays what the fans consider good football and in doing so reduce the chances of beating the opposition are not doing their job properly. SAF had a preference but would bin it against certain teams to give the lads the best chance of winning.

You can only really talk about good football if your players are so much better than the opposition that you will more than likely beat them anyway and so can choose to play however you want within reason and you will have 90% chance if winning anyway.

 

[sugar_kane]

We are now 22 matches into the season. If we look at the first 11 league games vs the last 11 league games, progress is clearly being made.
First 11: 13 points, 13 goals scored
Last 11: 21 points, 23 goals scored

76% more goals scored, 62% more points gained.

Cos I'm a saddo I just had a quick check how he's done if we split his first 40 permanent games into 10 game segments (arbitrary yes, but so is rating him based on only his post-caretaker games which a lot of people are happy to do)

First ten games - 20% win rate
Second set of ten - 30% win rate
Third set - 60% win rate
Fourth set - 60% win rate

Split it into twenty and twenty (again arbitrary but feck it) and it's 25% win rate vs 60%, which seems to demonstrate progress.

I do genuinely think we were burnt out by end of last season hence the appalling run, and the start of this season was severely marred by injuries.

I don't expect the 60% win rate to hold up for the rest of the season but we've overall been a lot better since Martial came back (and have in fairness still had quite a few injuries during this spell)

All the while he's been getting rid of shit players and promoting youth and we've also seen players like Rashford and Fred significantly improve. He's also got rid of the bad vibes Mourinho brought to the club. He deserves a lot of credit but a huge chunk of our own supporters still want him gone.

 

[matt10000]

Cos I'm a saddo I just had a quick check how he's done if we split his first 40 permanent games into 10 game segments (arbitrary yes, but so is rating him based on only his post-caretaker games which a lot of people are happy to do)

First ten games - 20% win rate
Second set of ten - 30% win rate
Third set - 60% win rate
Fourth set - 60% win rate

Split it into twenty and twenty (again arbitrary but feck it) and it's 25% win rate vs 60%, which seems to demonstrate progress.

I do genuinely think we were burnt out by end of last season hence the appalling run, and the start of this season was severely marred by injuries.

I don't expect the 60% win rate to hold up for the rest of the season but we've overall been a lot better since Martial came back (and have in fairness still had quite a few injuries during this spell)

All the while he's been getting rid of shit players and promoting youth and we've also seen players like Rashford and Fred significantly improve. He's also got rid of the bad vibes Mourinho brought to the club. He deserves a lot of credit but a huge chunk of our own supporters still want him gone.

Yes I like the progress and direction and no one can say right now whether Ole will be successful in two years or not. Let’s not forget the amazing run we went on when he was temp manager.

According to the Ole haters this run (which has been erased from their history as it didn’t count) had nothing what so ever to do with Ole and was down to the players relief at Mourinho exit etc.....but they are quick to forget about the players and blame Ole 100% for every bad result since!!

 

[Albiston]

I haven’t been on here for a while and was interested to see, how at the time of the announcement there was mostly positive comments and wishing him luck, to the last few pages which seem a lot more negative towards OGS.

I thought the timing, of the club giving him the full time job, was weird when only a couple of months previously they seemed to publicly declare the future strategy of getting a DoF and a more experienced manager.

To get rid of him now (12 months later) would just stink of even more incompetency by the board.
Therefore I really can’t see them giving him the boot before Xmas 2020.
In my opinion, I like more of what’s happening on the pitch than I don’t like. It’s 100% more enjoyable to watch than van Gaals or Mourinhos offerings.
Clearing deadwood, bringing through youth was always gonna be a huge undertaking and the fact we’re going OK in most competitions is a huge plus for him.
Young team, young manager BOTH need to learn and develop as they go forward.

 

[7even]

Another month with multiple disappointments.

Injuries all over place. Another transfer deal who‘s in danger of collapsing. Ole continue talking but at this point less and less people are listening. Ed Woodward is regarded as a joke and Ole isn’t far behind if this continues.

If Rashford is long term injured and Pogba wants to leave then Ole will live or die with his squad. He can’t deliver more excuses, nor more yada yada bs talks. Only results will save his face. Playing Rashford almost every game is a huge gamble that backfired. Keeping Pogba against his will can be another disaster. Not buying Bruno or whatever player who’s needed could be the final nail in the coffin that can cost him his job.

Top four or EL trophy is a minimum if he aspires to stay another season. No more excuses.

 

[MUFromLTU]

Another month with multiple disappointments.

Injuries all over place. Another transfer deal who‘s in danger of collapsing. Ole continue talking but at this point less and less people are listening. Ed Woodward is regarded as a joke and Ole isn’t far behind if this continues.

If Rashford is long term injured and Pogba wants to leave then Ole will live or die with his squad. He can’t deliver more excuses, nor more yada yada bs talks. Only results will save his face. Playing Rashford almost every game is a huge gamble that backfired. Keeping Pogba against his will can be another disaster. Not buying Bruno or whatever player who’s needed could be the final nail in the coffin that can cost him his job.

Top four or EL trophy is a minimum if he aspires to stay another season. No more excuses.

Your description under your nickname is very accurate

 

[Seij]

I haven’t been on here for a while and was interested to see, how at the time of the announcement there was mostly positive comments and wishing him luck, to the last few pages which seem a lot more negative towards OGS.

I thought the timing, of the club giving him the full time job, was weird when only a couple of months previously they seemed to publicly declare the future strategy of getting a DoF and a more experienced manager.

To get rid of him now (12 months later) would just stink of even more incompetency by the board.
Therefore I really can’t see them giving him the boot before Xmas 2020.
In my opinion, I like more of what’s happening on the pitch than I don’t like. It’s 100% more enjoyable to watch than van Gaals or Mourinhos offerings.
Clearing deadwood, bringing through youth was always gonna be a huge undertaking and the fact we’re going OK in most competitions is a huge plus for him.
Young team, young manager BOTH need to learn and develop as they go forward.

Ole is 46. He's been managing for 10 years now.

Zidane is 47, Ten Haag 49, Klopp 52, Nagelsmann 32.

I really don't get this "we're in rebuilding. whatever result is ok" excuse. We are top 3 richest club in the world (recently the richest until our results finally seem to be affecting the club's popularity). There's no reason that we can't rebuild and achieve good results at the same time. The standard among the fanbase for the club has plummeted so much now that people are happy with sitting 5th in a season where all of our rivals bar 2 are in chaos and sacked their managers and Liverpool have almost double the points we do.

 

[mu4c_20le]

I really don't get this "we're in rebuilding. whatever result is ok" excuse. We are top 3 richest club in the world (recently the richest until our results finally seem to be affecting the club's popularity). There's no reason that we can't rebuild and achieve good results at the same time. The standard among the fanbase for the club has plummeted so much now that people are happy with sitting 5th in a season where all of our rivals bar 2 are in chaos and sacked their managers and Liverpool have almost double the points we do.

Tell that to Mourinho, one of the best and most decorated coaches in the world.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

Ole is 46. He's been managing for 10 years now.

Zidane is 47, Ten Haag 49, Klopp 52, Nagelsmann 32.

I really don't get this "we're in rebuilding. whatever result is ok" excuse. We are top 3 richest club in the world (recently the richest until our results finally seem to be affecting the club's popularity). There's no reason that we can't rebuild and achieve good results at the same time. The standard among the fanbase for the club has plummeted so much now that people are happy with sitting 5th in a season where all of our rivals bar 2 are in chaos and sacked their managers and Liverpool have almost double the points we do.

Said it several times mate. Ole Woodward and Glazers have brainwashed fans into thinking one of most decorated and richest clubs in the world should carry out a rebuild in such a slow pace. Can you imagine the reaction on this forum if Mourinho, with the squad he had was given time and two more transfer windows yet we end up being 5th?

 

[Foxbatt]

My problem with him is not doing the simple and basic things right. We are not going to play like Liverpool and City. We do not have the players to do so and Ole is not Klopp or Pep to do so. But he is not getting the things even managers at the lower end is doing by getting the simple things. We may not win matches too but look at the Palace goal against City. We cannot even get a corner right. The last time we scored from a corner was because it was not planned and even the scorer had no idea a corner has been taken.
Surely Ole can get a corner right? He himself made his name from a near post flick by Teddy Sheringham. So why doesn't he get that right?

 

[Leftback99]

My problem with him is not doing the simple and basic things right. We are not going to play like Liverpool and City. We do not have the players to do so and Ole is not Klopp or Pep to do so. But he is not getting the things even managers at the lower end is doing by getting the simple things. We may not win matches too but look at the Palace goal against City. We cannot even get a corner right. The last time we scored from a corner was because it was not planned and even the scorer had no idea a corner has been taken.
Surely Ole can get a corner right? He himself made his name from a near post flick by Teddy Sheringham. So why doesn't he get that right?

It was Palace's first goal from a corner this season.

 

[chromepaxos]

'.....perhaps in the top 10 managers in history....'
When I read such statements, this is when I do worry. [... Klopp is superb, definitely. But not sure he is top 10 etc.

'....Ole can't both be crap and in the leading group of the richest league in the world, can he?...'

Oh yes he can, [...]. Are you convinced by him? Are the players? [...] The current quality of the premiership is average. It is competitive, and has lots of hype etc ... but aside from Liverpool, and City, who are the really good, consistent sides in the Premiership? [...] And Man Utd, a club of this size, with this resource, being in 5th is no celebration or cause for satisfaction. It is, in my opinion, a massive disappointment. Only the like of OGS try and suggest otherwise. Look at Leicester ffs! You telling me you are happy being comfortably far behind that side this season? What sort of standards do some of fans accept now? That we can be a few places behind Leicester, and fight to remain 5th?

That's our standards now?

I am fed up with it. OGS takes us nowhere. That's why we are fifth, and even staying there will be a fight. If that is satisfactory to you, if that is a sign of a good manager, then that's your opinion. But I expect United fans to expect , demand even, a whole, whole lot better!

Oh, Jesus. As I said in another post, what's weird about you Ole-out obsessives is that you just make stuff up to argue with. You create a straw-man in your head and argue with him instead the person you're responding to in the forum. It's fkn crazy to see it over and over again.

I did not say that Klopp was in the top 10 in history nor did I say that I'm satisfied with Ole nor did I say that I'm happy with 5th, etc., etc. Maybe you need to work on your reading comprehension instead of lecturing United fans about how you "expect" them to behave? Who TF do you think you are?

The thing is that your entire argument is just lots of hand-waving. There's no substance to it. It's basically, "I don't understand what I'm seeing and it should be simple and I don't like the nasty man. Waaaaah!!!"

First contact with reality and it starts to melt. Your view: the Premier League is average. Reality: every Premier League team in the CL reached the quarter-final. It's just so odd how real-world results don't match your teen fantasy.