Ole is unhappy that we haven't bought a CM

VP89

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Maybe after you upgrade your comprehension skills first and learnt the meaning of 'on a couple of kids and a midfielder he had no intention of using'.
Or you update yours and note I was always talking just about the kids, and in my own posts said VDB is the only fair transfer you can blame him on.
 

Flytan

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What makes more sense than Ole wanting a strong squad?
There wasn't a realistic target for the CM role, so Lingard getting us £18m wouldn't have made any impact to that at all.

Not sure what doesn't make sense about that to be honest with you? :houllier:
It's clear the Glazers have a pre-determined about to spend on players and any player sale adds to how much we get to spend. So yes, adding 18M would make an impact whether that being in the summer (if we sold a few players and let a few players contract's run out like we should have), in the winter, or next summer. It all matters when the club is run with a budget. I don't see how giving him 10 minutes every few games means our squad is strong anyways. He's a very mediocre player. It didn't have to be Lingard who was sold, he was just the obvious one. Any combination of: Martial, Lingard, Mata, DVB (since Ole hates him), Bailly (since Ole plays an unfit Maguire over him), or Matic could have been used on midfielders. We also could have not bought Amad or Pellestri (or just one of them) when we're sending out 70M for Sancho to play the same position at the same relative age. It's just terrible budgeting.
 

AneRu

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Or you update yours and note I was always talking just about the kids, and in my own posts said VDB is the only fair transfer you can blame him on.
So why do say I plucked a figure from the air when I stated that he wasted funds on those three? Do I really have to point it out to you that VDB cost us 35m, Pellistri 10m and Amad 18m? Do I also have to point it out that such an outlay if spent on a CB or DM makes a difference to the first team?
 

VP89

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So why do say I plucked a figure from the air when I stated that he wasted funds on those three? Do I really have to point it out to you that VDB cost us 35m, Pellistri 10m and Amad 18m? Do I also have to point it out that such an outlay if spent on a CB or DM makes a difference to the first team?
You need a quality player to be available first in that window. Dont say im clutching at straws when I made posts to say that VDB is the only example you can put on Ole.

Now you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.
 

AneRu

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It's clear the Glazers have a pre-determined about to spend on players and any player sale adds to how much we get to spend. So yes, adding 18M would make an impact whether that being in the summer (if we sold a few players and let a few players contract's run out like we should have), in the winter, or next summer. It all matters when the club is run with a budget. I don't see how giving him 10 minutes every few games means our squad is strong anyways. He's a very mediocre player. It didn't have to be Lingard who was sold, he was just the obvious one. Any combination of: Martial, Lingard, Mata, DVB (since Ole hates him), Bailly (since Ole plays an unfit Maguire over him), or Matic could have been used on midfielders. We also could have not bought Amad or Pellestri (or just one of them) when we're sending out 70M for Sancho to play the same position at the same relative age. It's just terrible budgeting.
Thanks a lot mate, some posters are invested in Ole that they refuse to see common sense. What we spent on Amad, Pellistri and DVB did not impact the team at all. The total outlay is 70m, surely enough to buy a top DM or a very good CB. The fact that we didn't buy either last season meant that we had to buy both this season in addition to Sancho but we couldn't because of budgetary limits making us look stupid for spending a significant outlay last summer on players that didn't make an impact at all.

Let's say we had spent £40m on Soumare, just an example before people jump on my neck, last summer or £60m on Kounde then we wouldn't have need to spend £100m - £120m in one go on both a DM and a CB. The decision to spend huge money on a couple of teenagers and DVB and the refusal to offload players has ensured that we fail to sign that midfielder everyone and his dog knew we needed and teams have targeted that weak spot.
 

AneRu

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You need a quality player to be available first in that window. Dont say im clutching at straws when I made posts to say that VDB is the only example you can put on Ole.

Now you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.
In a COVID ravaged summer where clubs were doing loan deals because no one had the money to spend on players? We could have made most players available but our management is not flexible enough, this is why we failed to sign a CM because the manager couldn't see beyond Camavinga and Rice.
 

VP89

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In a COVID ravaged summer where clubs were doing loan deals because no one had the money to spend on players? We could have made most players available but our management is not flexible enough, this is why we failed to sign a CM because the manager couldn't see beyond Camavinga and Rice.
Which CM should we have signed whom you know would not have been a big risk to slot in. There aren't many, and its not solely Ole who is attributed to it, theres a whole scouting network involved.

You're now moving away to a different debate. If you argued this season that we shouldn't have splashed on sancho and should have got a DM, I would agree. But us moving for Diallo because Lille stepped up their interest and risking 10m eur on Pellistri isnt a stick to beat Ole with.

As I said earlier, there are 101 sticks we can beat him with but his decision to agree for the players two summers ago isnt one of them. It was quite widely agreed he wasnt well backed in that summer, I would point fingers at the people above him, not him directly for that window.
 

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Fred in ucraine was a good passing skilled player maker, at United became a bad water carrier

Signed van de beek

+ he has hannibal, dylan levitt
 

AneRu

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Which CM should we have signed whom you know would not have been a big risk to slot in. There aren't many, and its not solely Ole who is attributed to it, theres a whole scouting network involved.

You're now moving away to a different debate. If you argued this season that we shouldn't have splashed on sancho and should have got a DM, I would agree. But us moving for Diallo because Lille stepped up their interest and risking 10m eur on Pellistri isnt a stick to beat Ole with.

As I said earlier, there are 101 sticks we can beat him with but his decision to agree for the players two summers ago isnt one of them. It was quite widely agreed he wasnt well backed in that summer, I would point fingers at the people above him, not him directly for that window.
Twenty million in isolation doesn't look bad but then we spent 40m on DVB in that summer, when everyone and his dog was in agreement that we needed a RW, DM and CB. I understand the failure to sign Sancho then but it surely didn't stop us from signing the CB or DM that we needed.

I won't take the argument that there is no DM that could have improved us at all when we are seeing Leicester signing Soumare, who has always been available since Mourinho was here and has come in and looked decent for them. That's a low risk kind of signing we should be making more of not dropping 40m or 70m everytime we need a starter.

It's a lazy argument to say that we couldn't sign a DM because identifying is is too hard if they aren't playing in the PL. That's effectively what the management is saying, it's understandable if you make a bad signing whilst taking a gamble on a good player, it happens to the best of them.
 

VP89

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Twenty million in isolation doesn't look bad but then we spent 40m on DVB in that summer, when everyone and his dog was in agreement that we needed a RW, DM and CB. I understand the failure to sign Sancho then but it surely didn't stop us from signing the CB or DM that we needed.

I won't take the argument that there is no DM that could have improved us at all when we are seeing Leicester signing Soumare, who has always been available since Mourinho was here and has come in and looked decent for them. That's a low risk kind of signing we should be making more of not dropping 40m or 70m everytime we need a starter.

It's a lazy argument to say that we couldn't sign a DM because identifying is is too hard if they aren't playing in the PL. That's effectively what the management is saying, it's understandable if you make a bad signing whilst taking a gamble on a good player, it happens to the best of them.
What is a lazy argument is this insinuation that "we needed these positions so its only that simple". Clubs dont all operate that way, even the best run clubs. They want the right profile or they wait. Or alternatively, they may not need to prioritise a signing (Diallo/VDB) but were keeping tabs so that they are obligated move in quicker than planned if another club is pouncing.

Soumare also isn't a DM, nor has he yet shown any chops in the PL yet so he isn't making some immediate impact.
 
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Sky1981

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Any manager who had 3 years and 500m on top of pogba, rashford, de gea, shaw should have no excuse being this bad
 

AndySmith1990

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Which CM should we have signed whom you know would not have been a big risk to slot in. There aren't many, and its not solely Ole who is attributed to it, theres a whole scouting network involved.

You're now moving away to a different debate. If you argued this season that we shouldn't have splashed on sancho and should have got a DM, I would agree. But us moving for Diallo because Lille stepped up their interest and risking 10m eur on Pellistri isnt a stick to beat Ole with.

As I said earlier, there are 101 sticks we can beat him with but his decision to agree for the players two summers ago isnt one of them. It was quite widely agreed he wasnt well backed in that summer, I would point fingers at the people above him, not him directly for that window.
What's the point of employing an entire scouting team if they're unable to identify players that aren't clear and obvious? People keep asking which CM was available. Well how would anyone on here know? We don't spend our days scouting the world, we don't have direct contact with agents.

Had everyone on here heard of Kante before Leicester signed him? Our scouting department should be looking for players like that. If it's literally Rice or nothing then it just further emphasises what an incompetent setup we have leading the team, as we're going to continue to rely on making £50m+ signings all the time, and it's team building that any of us on here could do simply by booting up FM and picking from the most expensive and reputable players.
 

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It's always the players, or the missing players, never the manager. Someone who is not able to reflect his own work, should not be the manager of a club like United.
 

AneRu

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It's always the players, or the missing players, never the manager. Someone who is not able to reflect his own work, should not be the manager of a club like United.
This is so understated, self reflection and self awareness is very important in leadership. How else do you know the missing ingredients in your approach. I think this aspect was central to Sir Alex staying successful for so long, he wasn't afraid to question himself and adapt to new trends.
 

VP89

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What's the point of employing an entire scouting team if they're unable to identify players that aren't clear and obvious? People keep asking which CM was available. Well how would anyone on here know? We don't spend our days scouting the world, we don't have direct contact with agents.

Had everyone on here heard of Kante before Leicester signed him? Our scouting department should be looking for players like that. If it's literally Rice or nothing then it just further emphasises what an incompetent setup we have leading the team, as we're going to continue to rely on making £50m+ signings all the time, and it's team building that any of us on here could do simply by booting up FM and picking from the most expensive and reputable players.
Then blame the scouting network too. Youre moving away to the debate I was having in that case. We have been poor at unearthing gems outside of the club since well before Ole.
 

Kurton

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What's the point of employing an entire scouting team if they're unable to identify players that aren't clear and obvious? People keep asking which CM was available. Well how would anyone on here know? We don't spend our days scouting the world, we don't have direct contact with agents.

Had everyone on here heard of Kante before Leicester signed him? Our scouting department should be looking for players like that. If it's literally Rice or nothing then it just further emphasises what an incompetent setup we have leading the team, as we're going to continue to rely on making £50m+ signings all the time, and it's team building that any of us on here could do simply by booting up FM and picking from the most expensive and reputable players.
Even if we had a good scouting team, most probably Ole will overlook any suggestions they make they make as he wouldn't know how to utilize them. They most likely go to bench or on loan. Hell, he doesn't even know how to utilize a champions league semifinalist or one of the best upcoming youngsters in Europe. Like a spoilt child, wants most fancy toys but will chuck it aside if he doesn't know what to do with it.
 

Steve Bruce

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It was the bottom of his priorities. Fact is the fans seen we needed a CB and DM before anything else yet Ole and his team thought differently.

He brought in a GK and RW first before getting a CB. He prioritised a RB before a DM as well but didn't get Trips as he was over priced.

In reality he could have got his DM if United sold lingard, dalot, Henderson & James.

Samoure was available for pittance, but we didn't even try and Leicester got a good player for pittance instead
 

Resch

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This is so understated, self reflection and self awareness is very important in leadership. How else do you know the missing ingredients in your approach. I think this aspect was central to Sir Alex staying successful for so long, he wasn't afraid to question himself and adapt to new trends.
It is one of the biggest problems in football management. Few managers reflect and know when it is time to step down, or even to change their ideas. Ole is infatuated into his 4-2-3-1, he does not have other (working) options. He does not see his tactical mistakes or has any idea how to fix them. Self-reflection would give him an idea how to chance his tactics, which help he needs, etc....
 
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So the club spent £400M+ on players across 3 transfer windows, except for midfield, where they refused to buy him any player he wanted? Seems legit.
Here's what Louis Van Gaal said about how transfers are done at United. Thought it relevant to this discussion about who chooses the signings... taken from a 2019 Guardian interview.

'What is the problem at Manchester United now?

The problem begins with, of course, that Manchester United was never refreshed. I think when you are a manager you have to refresh every year to keep the team-building process going.

You brought in players. You tried to refresh.

Yes, but I didn’t always get the players that I want. That’s the problem. There is Woodward and his right hand is [head of corporate development] Matt Judge. Judge I met once in a while but not too much. And there was the head of scouting. That was the structure but you are always dependent on Woodward and Judge.

Did they not take your advice?

I thought always Manchester United can buy every player because they have a lot of power. Seemingly a few players were not reachable for Manchester United. I cannot understand but it was like that.

Ángel Di María, was he your choice?

Di María was my choice at AZ, seven years before.'
 

largelyworried

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Here's what Louis Van Gaal said about how transfers are done at United. Thought it relevant to this discussion about who chooses the signings... taken from a 2019 Guardian interview.

'What is the problem at Manchester United now?

The problem begins with, of course, that Manchester United was never refreshed. I think when you are a manager you have to refresh every year to keep the team-building process going.

You brought in players. You tried to refresh.

Yes, but I didn’t always get the players that I want. That’s the problem. There is Woodward and his right hand is [head of corporate development] Matt Judge. Judge I met once in a while but not too much. And there was the head of scouting. That was the structure but you are always dependent on Woodward and Judge.

Did they not take your advice?

I thought always Manchester United can buy every player because they have a lot of power. Seemingly a few players were not reachable for Manchester United. I cannot understand but it was like that.

Ángel Di María, was he your choice?

Di María was my choice at AZ, seven years before.'
As I said, one of the main things I credit Ole with is the overall rebuild of the squad, I just think midfield was a mistake. If you think that Ole wasn't to credit for the rebuild, then fine.
 

JPRouve

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Van gaal wanted the likes of Muller and Robben, there isn't a world where he was going to get them.
 

AneRu

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Here's what Louis Van Gaal said about how transfers are done at United. Thought it relevant to this discussion about who chooses the signings... taken from a 2019 Guardian interview.

'What is the problem at Manchester United now?

The problem begins with, of course, that Manchester United was never refreshed. I think when you are a manager you have to refresh every year to keep the team-building process going.

You brought in players. You tried to refresh.

Yes, but I didn’t always get the players that I want. That’s the problem. There is Woodward and his right hand is [head of corporate development] Matt Judge. Judge I met once in a while but not too much. And there was the head of scouting. That was the structure but you are always dependent on Woodward and Judge.

Did they not take your advice?

I thought always Manchester United can buy every player because they have a lot of power. Seemingly a few players were not reachable for Manchester United. I cannot understand but it was like that.

Ángel Di María, was he your choice?

Di María was my choice at AZ, seven years before.'
I don't hold Woodward and his sidekick, Judge, in very high esteem but the bolded part there reflects the problem - he expected us to be able to buy any player but in reality no club has that power. So if his thought process had that flaw is it any wonder he failed?
 

Sviken

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Here's what Louis Van Gaal said about how transfers are done at United. Thought it relevant to this discussion about who chooses the signings... taken from a 2019 Guardian interview.

'What is the problem at Manchester United now?

The problem begins with, of course, that Manchester United was never refreshed. I think when you are a manager you have to refresh every year to keep the team-building process going.

You brought in players. You tried to refresh.

Yes, but I didn’t always get the players that I want. That’s the problem. There is Woodward and his right hand is [head of corporate development] Matt Judge. Judge I met once in a while but not too much. And there was the head of scouting. That was the structure but you are always dependent on Woodward and Judge.

Did they not take your advice?

I thought always Manchester United can buy every player because they have a lot of power. Seemingly a few players were not reachable for Manchester United. I cannot understand but it was like that.

Ángel Di María, was he your choice?

Di María was my choice at AZ, seven years before.'
This is actually one of our main problems. It goes back to Moyes, through LVG, Mourinho complained it as well and Ole is a yes man, but it doesn't seem that most of his signings are his. Woodward and Judge themselves know very little about football so most of their transfers have been duds.
 
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I don't hold Woodward and his sidekick, Judge, in very high esteem but the bolded part there reflects the problem - he expected us to be able to buy any player but in reality no club has that power. So if his thought process had that flaw is it any wonder he failed?
The purpose of posting that was to show that as of a couple of years ago the Manager had a limited role in who was signed. I'm not defending van gaal or speculating on his targets. The wider discussio was about whether Ole chooses which players come in.
 

JPRouve

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This is actually one of our main problems. It goes back to Moyes, through LVG, Mourinho complained it as well and Ole is a yes man, but it doesn't seem that most of his signings are his. Woodward and Judge themselves know very little about football so most of their transfers have been duds.
What makes you think that most of the clubs signings weren't done with the input and support of the managers?
 

Castia

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He loves ‘McFred’ even if you give Ole Declan Rice he would find a way to get the chuckle brothers back in midfield.
 

AneRu

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The purpose of posting that was to show that as of a couple of years ago the Manager had a limited role in who was signed. I'm not defending van gaal or speculating on his targets. The wider discussio was about whether Ole chooses which players come in.
My response was meant to show that even though Judge and Woodward deserve criticism for their part in this debacle we have to appreciate the fact that they were working with someone out of touch with the market and our reality as a club. When a key cog like the manager is letting delusions cloud his judgment then the system fails.

Another aspect to consider is, if the manager has/had a limited role in the selection of targets then who deserves credit for building this team? Either way we look at it it doesnt look good for the manager, if he is making transfer decisions then he neglected a major part of the team and if he isn't then one of the few things he is praised doing was done by someone else.
 

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Van gaal wanted the likes of Muller and Robben, there isn't a world where he was going to get them.
Lets face it. He’s batshit. He just wanted us to buy Bayern players and a load of random system players to lull us off to sleep. Not exactly any genius to it. Robben is definitely one that got away though (to Chelsea/when leaving Real)

We need someone fresh who’ll row in with the stats/data/pressing/outside the box recruiting by numbers. Otherwise we will always be susceptible to the cult of the manager or falling back on cliches like the utd way. Some change needs to happen that transcends managers and keeps us on the cutting edge.
 

JPRouve

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My response was meant to show that even though Judge and Woodward deserve criticism for their part in this debacle we have to appreciate the fact that they were working with someone out of touch with the market and our reality as a club. When a key cog like the manager is letting delusions cloud his judgment then the system fails.

Another aspect to consider is, if the manager has/had a limited role in the selection of targets then who deserves credit for building this team? Either way we look at it it doesnt look good for the manager, if he is making transfer decisions then he neglected a major part of the team and if he isn't then one of the few things he is praised doing was done by someone else.
The problem is that in an attempt to pile on Woodward and generally protect managers people failed to state the obvious. No manager in this world has control of transfers because they don't have control of money and they don't have control of other clubs desires, managers don't negotiate with executives of other clubs and if they were the ones scouting and negotiating they wouldn't be coaching, those are all full time jobs.

An other thing that is generally missed and also shows that Van Gaal is either full of it or was absolutely clueless, Murtough was an executive during his tenure and he was the one helping Woodward with Football decisions, Judge has been negotiating transfers and players extensions since Bollingbroke left for Inter and Bollingbroke wasn't a football guy either, he was formerly at Cirque du Soleil.
 

frostbite

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We need a new manager more than we need a new CM, but it is true that with a proper DCM the following lineup is world class, comparable with the best we ever had.

de Gea
Wan-Bissaka
Varane
Maguire
Shaw
Roy Keane DCM
Fred
Greenwood
Bruno Fernandes
Rashford
Cristiano Ronaldo

And we have a great bench, too (Pogba, Lingard, Lindelöf, Sancho, van de Beek).
 
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