Ole post match rant vs Everton

RedRover

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Istanbul is a 4.5hr flight from Manchester. Our game with Istanbul Basaksehir would have finished at around Thursday 1am local time. To then jump on a four hour flight home and then the very next day be on the coach to Liverpool for a tough away game is asking a lot from the players.

That's 1 day of rest/training, then asked to play, not only on a Saturday, but an early kick off. It was absurd and I'm glad to see that Klopp had something to say about it too.

EDIT: Also the players should be receiving all of the empathy for the unprecedented situation that we are in. Without the players the greedy broadcasters have nothing to show. So it isn't in their best interest to run them into the ground.
Is it? Traveling a couple of hours away late Friday (presumably after some light training) and staying in a 5 star hotel over night?

I keep saying this but Europa League teams play Thursday - sometimes in places very difficult to get to and then play again at 3 on Sunday. That is standard and United have done it regularly over the last few seasons. So actually, factoring that in we're arguing over 2 and 1/2 hours.

I'll ask you - are we saying United should get special treatment over Europa League clubs? Is it absurd that they don't?

Your last point I partially agree with and partially don't. On the one hand, players have had hardly any rest post lockdown. However, the "greedy" broadcasters are the major reason they get 10 times more in salary than players did 15-20 years ago (and rightly so). I suspect the bulk of those players were happy to rely on their contractual benefits during lockdown, including continuing to get paid, and as such, I'm not sure it's all that unreasonable to expect them to fulfil their contractual obligations now.
 

Tom Cato

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Is it? Traveling a couple of hours away late Friday (presumably after some light training) and staying in a 5 star hotel over night?

I keep saying this but Europa League teams play Thursday - sometimes in places very difficult to get to and then play again at 3 on Sunday. That is standard and United have done it regularly over the last few seasons. So actually, factoring that in we're arguing over 2 and 1/2 hours.

I'll ask you - are we saying United should get special treatment over Europa League clubs? Is it absurd that they don't?

Your last point I partially agree with and partially don't. On the one hand, players have had hardly any rest post lockdown. However, the "greedy" broadcasters are the major reason they get 10 times more in salary than players did 15-20 years ago (and rightly so). I suspect the bulk of those players were happy to rely on their contractual benefits during lockdown, including continuing to get paid, and as such, I'm not sure it's all that unreasonable to expect them to fulfil their contractual obligations now.
Tendons and ligaments don't care how much you earn. Yes footballers are rich, money is not a concern for them. Still a little bit unfair to hold that against them, no? "You're rich so your struggles doesn't matter"?

We're already seeing a increase in fatigue injuries, and we are 8 league games into the season. I don't feel its unfair to at least discuss that very real fact with some semblance of concern. Without using someones wage as a retort. That's not grounded in anything academic, that's only based on envy.
 

Jordan_mufc

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Is it? Traveling a couple of hours away late Friday (presumably after some light training) and staying in a 5 star hotel over night?

I keep saying this but Europa League teams play Thursday - sometimes in places very difficult to get to and then play again at 3 on Sunday. That is standard and United have done it regularly over the last few seasons. So actually, factoring that in we're arguing over 2 and 1/2 hours.

I'll ask you - are we saying United should get special treatment over Europa League clubs? Is it absurd that they don't?

Your last point I partially agree with and partially don't. On the one hand, players have had hardly any rest post lockdown. However, the "greedy" broadcasters are the major reason they get 10 times more in salary than players did 15-20 years ago (and rightly so). I suspect the bulk of those players were happy to rely on their contractual benefits during lockdown, including continuing to get paid, and as such, I'm not sure it's all that unreasonable to expect them to fulfil their contractual obligations now.
5 star Hotel, 2 star Hotel, it doesn't matter when it comes to bodily recovery.

At an elite level, those 2 and a half hours do make a difference, no just physically, but mentally. I would bet my house that if you ask all of the Europa teams whether they would rather play at 3pm or 5pm on a Sunday, I'm sure you can guess what they would say.

And yes we have been in that situation before, but as you mentioned before, this season is like no other. We are already seeing the effect of the scheduling with a record amount of muscle injuries. So to make that schedule even tighter with late finishes coupled with early kick offs is a recipe for disaster.

Regarding your last point, it's hardly fair to beat the players with that stick, it wasn't as if they were on strike. We were in the middle of a lockdown. Therefore, I also don't think it's fair to say "right, you've had all that time off, so here's 5 matches in 2 weeks. You've got no right to complain".
 

mazhar13

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We've already covered Shaw and Rashford dealing with injuries, but Lindelof has actually been playing with a back problem for the past few weeks. Even if he hasn't been playing every midweek, playing with a back problem as a central defender will still be tough.

 

RedRover

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Tendons and ligaments don't care how much you earn. Yes footballers are rich, money is not a concern for them. Still a little bit unfair to hold that against them, no? "You're rich so your struggles doesn't matter"?

We're already seeing a increase in fatigue injuries, and we are 8 league games into the season. I don't feel its unfair to at least discuss that very real fact with some semblance of concern. Without using someones wage as a retort. That's not grounded in anything academic, that's only based on envy.
That is not at all what as I said.

The blame for this, was placed at the door of "greedy" broadcasters and I made the simple point that the pressures on players and clubs now come with immense reward. In a world where a lot of us work hard, physically and otherwise and do not get such rewards, you'll forgive me for not putting the players on a pedestal and singing their praises for doing their job, even if that job is slightly more taxing that it may ordinarily be.

It seems to me that the problem with fatigue here is not the schedule now but the accumulation of football over the last few months which is a clear and obvious problem which clubs (especially United) could have addressed in the transfer window, and chose not to. Alternatively, clubs could use some younger players. Again, the bigger clubs seem not to want to do that. It was blindingly obvious that players would get tired.

Short of scrapping competitions and playing less games (and how you do that I have no idea given the commercial reality of modern football) what is the answer? I'm genuinely interested in your solution. You move games back, does it not just eventually bump into another game in midweek? There are only so many weeks of the season, or you end up eating into next year as well.
 
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RedRover

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5 star Hotel, 2 star Hotel, it doesn't matter when it comes to bodily recovery.

At an elite level, those 2 and a half hours do make a difference, no just physically, but mentally. I would bet my house that if you ask all of the Europa teams whether they would rather play at 3pm or 5pm on a Sunday, I'm sure you can guess what they would say.

And yes we have been in that situation before, but as you mentioned before, this season is like no other. We are already seeing the effect of the scheduling with a record amount of muscle injuries. So to make that schedule even tighter with late finishes coupled with early kick offs is a recipe for disaster.

Regarding your last point, it's hardly fair to beat the players with that stick, it wasn't as if they were on strike. We were in the middle of a lockdown. Therefore, I also don't think it's fair to say "right, you've had all that time off, so here's 5 matches in 2 weeks. You've got no right to complain".
I'm sure it does, but as I've said, and you agree this is not a normal season given the accumulation of months of football previously, with little rest.

I'll ask again, do you think certain clubs should be favoured? If you start moving fixtures to accommodate clubs, where does it end? What if you've had a 500 mile round trip in the Cup in midweek and then are scheduled at 12.30 Saturday? Can you move your game? Who decides that?

Everyone seems to be able to point to the obvious problem, specifically too much football in a short space of time, but doesn't have a solution. As I said above, if you keep moving games back, eventually you get a pile up, which managers always complain about. This is not an unforeseen problem and clubs had the chance to do business in the summer to try and alleviate the problem. Some will have, others won't and that will tell over the season.

And for clarity, I'm not sticking to boot into the players. They are not robots and fatigue is real. I respect footballers, but I don't put them up on a pedestal or laud them for doing the job for which they get paid. The clubs pay them and expect a return. They are a commodity and that's the reality. Players, and more importantly the clubs need to manage the problem and should (as I say above) have considered this in preparation for the season in terms of recruitment.

Perhaps we disagree on this. No problem with that and I'm not going to just repeat the points I've already made. What I would say is that as a United fan in particular, I find it hard to sympathise with the problem of tired players when the club has deadwood, probably taking home in excess of £500k a week sitting in the stands. Football, has been for a long time been a squad game.

That's been exacerbated by factors outside of anyone's control. What we seem to want is only enough football so that we can rely on the same 15 players week in week out because we've got numerous players who aren't good enough to get picked who we can't shift. If you need to rest Fernandes (who we are shockingly reliant upon), then a Lingard on £100k plus a week should be good enough to come in and do a job. The problem is, he isn't, and that money could be invested elsewhere. The state of the squad is not the fault of Covid-19, Sky or even the manager and past decisions are now coming home to roost.
 
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jbwilliamz

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Isn't it common with footballers that after playing evening games, they struggle to sleep that night? I'm sure Rio Ferdinand gave an interview where he wouldn't sleep at all due to re-running the game through his head during the night.
 

MikeKing

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becoming so delusional that he now thinks he's Sir Alex!
The mind of this post is not at all wrapped up in football, as Sir Alex factually have patented the human expression of putting words to an emotion.
 

justsomebloke

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All he's saying is that the physical strain generated by the scheduling is forcing clubs to choose between not fielding their best team in PL matches or risking inevitable injuries to players, and that the league is needlessly increasing that strain by not making adjustments to the schedule that they could have made. I didn't hear him say that this only applies to clubs who play in the CL, and not to clubs that play in the EL (although he could justifiably have made a distinction, as EL games frequently does not require a strong PL team to use its best players, unlike the CL). It seems fairly obvious to me that he's got a good point, and is right to call this out. Other managers have too. And there's now three cases of players suffering serious injuries without significant contact, just through muscle fatigue (Shaw, Alexander-Arnold, Gomez).

Other than BT wanting to have the right games in the right slots, there's no compelling reason why this could not be done.
 
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mark_a

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This is a really great post and for me covers every area that’a currently under scrutiny.

Fully agree too, I’m not happy with how things are either but there is no quick fix and I think we are fine right now. 2 or 3 more signings, of which Ole has shown he has recruitment pretty much nailed, and we’ll be flying high again.
Since these posts, Klopp and Pep have both echoed Ole's sentiments about the schedule (but been reported more kindly) and we're now level with Arsenal with 1 game in hand and above City.
 

Murray3007

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hard thing to moan about considering it was one of our best performances, add in considering how bad they had played in istanbul, if they had played great on the wed and struggled on the sat then you might have something to moan about, still find it difficult to understand why players cant play 2 games a week,
 

Northstand

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hard thing to moan about considering it was one of our best performances, add in considering how bad they had played in istanbul, if they had played great on the wed and struggled on the sat then you might have something to moan about, still find it difficult to understand why players cant play 2 games a week,
The issue is not whether players can play twice per week, but whether they are at a physical disadvantage against a team that has not been required to. The answer to that question is clearly "yes", as evidenced over the years by the frequent complaints from managers/coaches of the big clubs when the schedules have been especially heavy, and the fact that this has always lead to players being rested for this reason.

I understand your point about the timing of Ole's complaint, but it was probably the fact that United won the game that legitimised his rant, as if it followed a loss it would have been labelled sour grapes.