Ole & United vs. Frank & Chelsea: who will have the better season?

Dancfc

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The fact you class Wenger as a crap manager speaks volumes
I wasn't talking about prime Wenger I was talking about the version Conte faced who Arsenal fans actively protested to get rid off.
 
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HNK55

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The way this thread swings is killing me.

We started the game way too passively but still thought we were the better team. Doesn’t matter though, the end score is what counts.

I have to add, is Michy now worth £90m for making Maguire look very ordinary during his goal. Lack of pace is a big issue for Maguire and he will get caught out many more times this season.

Still it’s been a great season so far and I’m delighted with how we are playing under Frank.
 

TwoSheds

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The way this thread swings is killing me.

We started the game way too passively but still thought we were the better team. Doesn’t matter though, the end score is what counts.

I have to add, is Michy now worth £90m for making Maguire look very ordinary during his goal. Lack of pace is a big issue for Maguire and he will get caught out many more times this season.

Still it’s been a great season so far and I’m delighted with how we are playing under Frank.
Depends. Do we need to offer Brandon Williams £120k a week after he outplayed Hudson Odoi?
 

roonster09

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The way this thread swings is killing me.

We started the game way too passively but still thought we were the better team. Doesn’t matter though, the end score is what counts.

I have to add, is Michy now worth £90m for making Maguire look very ordinary during his goal. Lack of pace is a big issue for Maguire and he will get caught out many more times this season.

Still it’s been a great season so far and I’m delighted with how we are playing under Frank.
In a bizarre world, if players are rated based on isolated incidents then yes.

Is CHO worth 100-150K when he was nullified by a player who is paid less than 5K per week? If Pulisic is worth 60 million then Rojo should be worth 100 million.
 

KM

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The way this thread swings is killing me.

We started the game way too passively but still thought we were the better team. Doesn’t matter though, the end score is what counts.

I have to add, is Michy now worth £90m for making Maguire look very ordinary during his goal. Lack of pace is a big issue for Maguire and he will get caught out many more times this season.

Still it’s been a great season so far and I’m delighted with how we are playing under Frank.
Hilarious this. McTominay is also worth 100m after making Kovacic and Jorginho look ordinary in midfield. Rojo is worth 70m after making 60m Pulisic ordinary. Brandon Williams should be asking us 150k contract after making CHO ordinary.
 

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It isn't just against Chelsea, you can include Pool and Arsenal games to see that there's a clear pattern of Ole enjoying games where the opposition is willing to attack a lot more than ones where the opposition sits back. He has drilled the counter attack pretty well and our attack as long as it's fit will give any team big problems on the counter. Whereas teams which sit back and frustrate us are his weakness and if they end up nicking a goal it ends up in lost points.

It's pretty much what was predicted at the start of the season.
 

roonster09

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This shit with facing Ole reminds me of Kenny when he returned to Liverpool and to an extent Wenger Vs Conte.

Crap managers who are/were losing to all sorts of shit but somehow keep/kept pulling the rabbit out of the hat when it came to facing us.
This post would have made sense if we are talking about the club that wins shit loads of games and trophies. Read that Chelsea haven't won a game against top 10 team, so maybe you are not as good as you think.
 

KM

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This post would have made sense if we are talking about the club that wins shit loads of games and trophies. Read that Chelsea haven't won a game against top 10 team, so maybe you are not as good as you think.
It's definetely true so far.
Lost against United and Liverpool. Drew against SHU and Leicester. Their wins have come against Wolves(12th), Burnley(13th), Brighton(14th), Newcastle(17th), Southampton(18th), Norwich(19th).
 

roonster09

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It's definetely true so far.
Lost against United and Liverpool. Drew against SHU and Leicester. Their wins have come against Wolves(12th), Burnley(13th), Brighton(14th), Newcastle(17th), Southampton(18th), Norwich(19th).
And these Chelsea fans talk as if some midtable club won against peak Barca team.
 

KM

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And these Chelsea fans talk as if some midtable club won against peak Barca team.
Yeah, although to be fair to them, they're a very exciting side but it's hilarious to see Chelsea fans pretend as if Carabao Cup is somehow beneath them. Like us, this was also their best chance of winning a trophy. They should pipe down a bit.
 

roonster09

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Yeah, although to be fair to them, they're a very exciting side but it's hilarious to see Chelsea fans pretend as if Carabao Cup is somehow beneath them. Like us, this was also their best chance of winning a trophy. They should pipe down a bit.
Yeah, they are exciting team to watch, with many young players in the team. They play good football too. It's just that they are not that good to make posts like "crap managers like Ole, Wenger does well against us".
 

Crashoutcassius

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The way this thread swings is killing me.

We started the game way too passively but still thought we were the better team. Doesn’t matter though, the end score is what counts.

I have to add, is Michy now worth £90m for making Maguire look very ordinary during his goal. Lack of pace is a big issue for Maguire and he will get caught out many more times this season.

Still it’s been a great season so far and I’m delighted with how we are playing under Frank.
He has got cost once so far and there's not even a goal if rojo does something or bats doesn't summon a ridiculous finish. We have the best defence in the league on chances given up.

Lots of talk about maguire now but he has been terrific
 

Dancfc

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This post would have made sense if we are talking about the club that wins shit loads of games and trophies. Read that Chelsea haven't won a game against top 10 team, so maybe you are not as good as you think.
We also beat Ajax who despite losing FDJ is still better than every team in England bar the big two.

The way you set up is perfectly set up to counter the way we set up (a bit like how we were to teams like Arsenal/Barca in the Drogba era), I think you guys are probably going to be our bogey team in this era even if/when we do grow more, is what it is.
 

roonster09

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We also beat Ajax who despite losing FDJ is still better than every team in England bar the big two.

The way you set up is perfectly set up to counter the way we set up (a bit like how we were to teams like Arsenal/Barca in the Drogba era), I think you guys are probably going to be our bogey team in this era even if/when we do grow more, is what it is.
Sure.

Regarding your comparison, shame Lukaku scored 2 goals at PSG away and no one said he scored more than 1 goal against top 6 sides.
 

bosnian_red

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They're better set up for beating the smaller teams, we are better set up for bigger games. Over a league season it's likely that winning your smaller games consistently will get you a higher position than struggling to win those but being good in tougher games.
 

charlenefan

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This shit with facing Ole reminds me of Kenny when he returned to Liverpool and to an extent Wenger Vs Conte.

Crap managers who are/were losing to all sorts of shit but somehow keep/kept pulling the rabbit out of the hat when it came to facing us.
Says more about Chelsea than it does those other sides tbh
 

duffer

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Read that Chelsea haven't won a game against top 10 team, so maybe you are not as good as you think.
In only a handful of games as a sample to be fair. We also best Ajax away (the 2nd best team we've played all season).
 

Mr H

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We also beat Ajax who despite losing FDJ is still better than every team in England bar the big two.

The way you set up is perfectly set up to counter the way we set up (a bit like how we were to teams like Arsenal/Barca in the Drogba era), I think you guys are probably going to be our bogey team in this era even if/when we do grow more, is what it is.
What logic are you using to state that ?

Even if i followed your flawed logic, Isn't the fact that you beat them and that Spurs beat them in their last meeting makes it at least 4 teams better than them ?
 

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I know chelsea fans and Ole haters here would not like admitting it but Ole won the tactical battle yesterday. Yesterday was his best game tactic wise. He was more active and made subsititutions to counter Lampard's move and it worked great.
 

Dancfc

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Says more about Chelsea than it does those other sides tbh
Not really. We tend to historically struggle against teams who sit and use pace to hit on the counter.

Villa with peak Young and Agbonlahor for example were an awkward opponent aswell.
 

roonster09

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In only a handful of games as a sample to be fair. We also best Ajax away (the 2nd best team we've played all season).
Yeah, sample size is small. I was just commenting that as few Chelsea fans post as if we Chelsea is peak Barca. At the start of the season, Chelsea, Manutd, Arsenal were all clubbed together and for all we know it might be the case.
 

Dancfc

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What logic are you using to state that ?

Even if i followed your flawed logic, Isn't the fact that you beat them and that Spurs beat them in their last meeting makes it at least 4 teams better than them ?
Not really, because one off games are exactly that. You've beaten us twice in game but in terms of the table were ahead, we use to reguarly get the better of your greatest sides in the pre Roman era, but in the grand scheme of things it meant little to nothing.

I'd never have anyway of proving it but In my personal opinion Ajax would finish 3rd in this division.
 

Dancfc

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Yeah, sample size is small. I was just commenting that as few Chelsea fans post as if we Chelsea is peak Barca. At the start of the season, Chelsea, Manutd, Arsenal were all clubbed together and for all we know it might be the case.
I never said we were like peak Barca I just said Ole is another example of a poor manager somehow getting the better of us constantly, like Kenny and the declined Wenger.

I actually think on paper your team should be up where we are in the table and I think with a more capable manager you will be, I've always had a soft spot for Ole as a person but as a manager I think he'll never get United in top four let alone anything else (of course if I eventually turn out to be wrong I'll hold my hands up).
 

roonster09

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I never said we were like peak Barca I just said Ole is another example of a poor manager somehow getting the better of us constantly, like Kenny and the declined Wenger.

I actually think on paper your team should be up where we are in the table and I think with a more capable manager you will be, I've always had a soft spot for Ole as a person but as a manager I think he'll never get United in top four let alone anything else (of course if I eventually turn out to be wrong I'll hold my hands up).
Again, if Ole did that to proven managers then yeah, but it's not like Lampard has history of winning shit loads of games as a manager.
 

charlenefan

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Not really. We tend to historically struggle against teams who sit and use pace to hit on the counter.

Villa with peak Young and Agbonlahor for example were an awkward opponent aswell.
Yes really. It's on Chelsea to figure out how to deal with that
 

Yagami

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In only a handful of games as a sample to be fair. We also best Ajax away (the 2nd best team we've played all season).
That's nice to say but I don't think we're better than Ajax at the moment.
 

passing-wind

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It isn't just against Chelsea, you can include Pool and Arsenal games to see that there's a clear pattern of Ole enjoying games where the opposition is willing to attack a lot more than ones where the opposition sits back. He has drilled the counter attack pretty well and our attack as long as it's fit will give any team big problems on the counter. Whereas teams which sit back and frustrate us are his weakness and if they end up nicking a goal it ends up in lost points.

It's pretty much what was predicted at the start of the season.
If Ole can figure out how to make use of possession with teams that sit and absorb pressure he'll get the time that fans advocate he deserves by warranting it on the pitch. Mourinho pretty much described the subjectivity of our season during our Chelsea home win, we are always a threat if a team is open but when the opposition sits in blocks we struggle.

Unfortunately most league teams employ this tactic and are instinctively defensive, that's why we will be competitive against top teams and poor against teams when the emphasis is on us to control games. All of the focus from the management and coaches should be on chance creation and decisive movement to the final third against teams that sit and we will have more consistency to good results. Because as it stands we will win a few then lose a few which is the problem.
 

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We didnt sit back on the counter yesterday?
Was I watching a different game?
 

Dancfc

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If Ole can figure out how to make use of possession with teams that sit and absorb pressure he'll get the time that fans advocate he deserves by warranting it on the pitch. Mourinho pretty much described the subjectivity of our season during our Chelsea home win, we are always a threat if a team is open but when the opposition sits in blocks we struggle.

Unfortunately most league teams employ this tactic and are instinctively defensive, that's why we will be competitive against top teams and poor against teams when the emphasis is on us to control games. All of the focus from the management and coaches should be on chance creation and decisive movement to the final third against teams that sit and we will have more consistency to good results. Because as it stands we will win a few then lose a few which is the problem.
I don't actually think it's that big a general problem anymore, the lesser teams don't really bother with it against City, Liverpool and even us and Arsenal because they know they will get picked off, people ask the questions of why teams like Norwich go for it against City/Liverpool and that's because it's actually their best chance of getting a result. This season so far for us only Newcastle have played a proper sit back tactic and created about 5/6 clear chances against them.

As soon as you find ways to conquer the bus parking those teams will stop doing it against you purely because the chances of reward are minimul, however doing it now gives these teams a very very high chance of a result so they will keep doing it, even more so now you picked apart one of the few lesser teams that played open against you with ease.
 

TheMagicFoolBus

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Yeah, although to be fair to them, they're a very exciting side but it's hilarious to see Chelsea fans pretend as if Carabao Cup is somehow beneath them. Like us, this was also their best chance of winning a trophy. They should pipe down a bit.
Sorry but are there Chelsea fans who are actually saying this competition is / was beneath us? I haven't seen any arguments suggesting that but perhaps I am being naive.

Lampard clearly got his tactics wrong; it was bizarre that we went 4-3-3 after Liverpool's (obviously much better) 4-3-3 struggled so much vs United's 3-4-2-1. For me we should have played 4-2-3-1 with Pulisic at the 10 and Pedro at RW in for Kovacic - this would have taken some of the creative burden away from the fullbacks (who are always pressured high when against 3-4-2-1) and made it more awkward for United to go 1v1 against Chelsea's front three.

Regardless, Ole deserves credit for this new approach - while it relies heavily on the 3 CBs to play 1v1 at times, for the most part it's worked out well. Once Pogba is back and potentially filling one of the two CM roles, I reckon the team may start performing much better as it's an awkward formation to play against (and is basically what won Conte the league).
 

mav_9me

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This post would have made sense if we are talking about the club that wins shit loads of games and trophies. Read that Chelsea haven't won a game against top 10 team, so maybe you are not as good as you think.
It's definetely true so far.
Lost against United and Liverpool. Drew against SHU and Leicester. Their wins have come against Wolves(12th), Burnley(13th), Brighton(14th), Newcastle(17th), Southampton(18th), Norwich(19th).
I have been one of those impressed by Lampard and his Chelsea with their style of play. But did not realize there was this caveat. Definitely something to keep in mind.
 

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Yeah, although to be fair to them, they're a very exciting side but it's hilarious to see Chelsea fans pretend as if Carabao Cup is somehow beneath them. Like us, this was also their best chance of winning a trophy. They should pipe down a bit.
Don‘t see it that way to be honest. Winning the league Cup only matters to me when we are strong.
Really strong.
Now we are in a transition period where winning it would not change anything.
So, good luck to you!
 

AshRK

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Don‘t see it that way to be honest. Winning the league Cup only matters to me when we are strong.
Really strong.
Now we are in a transition period where winning it would not change anything.
So, good luck to you!
Sir alex would totally have an opposite opinion. We were not the top team from 2003-06 but the league cup win brought a new belief. It's very strange how chelsea fan are suddenly downplaying a trophy, sounds very Arsenal esque. Every trophy is important and in fact Lampard would have done with a trophy or two this season. Imagine your young team winning a trophy, surely it would feel great.
 

UweBein

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Sir alex would totally have an opposite opinion. We were not the top team from 2003-06 but the league cup win brought a new belief. It's very strange how chelsea fan are suddenly downplaying a trophy, sounds very Arsenal esque. Every trophy is important and in fact Lampard would have done with a trophy or two this season. Imagine your young team winning a trophy, surely it would feel great.
Not downplaying it. winning the league and the league Cup is Great, for example. But we are not that kind of a team right now.
Winning the league cup would have been a surprise act. Even if we win against United the likelihood of us winning it would have been low.
 

ZolaWasMagic

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Yeah, although to be fair to them, they're a very exciting side but it's hilarious to see Chelsea fans pretend as if Carabao Cup is somehow beneath them. Like us, this was also their best chance of winning a trophy. They should pipe down a bit.
Carabao cup is a shite trophy though. Lets not pretend it isnt. If you win it, great a trophy, if you go out? who cares. It's why clubs make so many changes and play youth, even in semi finals
There is not one chairman in the EPL who says to his manager "this season i want you to win the Carabao cup" of that i am certain


Was 2 weaker sides last night who clearly have better priorities.
 

mav_9me

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Carabao cup is a shite trophy though. Lets not pretend it isnt. If you win it, great a trophy, if you go out? who cares. It's why clubs make so many changes and play youth, even in semi finals
There is not one chairman in the EPL who says to his manager "this season i want you to win the Carabao cup" of that i am certain


Was 2 weaker sides last night who clearly have better priorities.
I think your team would have benefited from a trophy even if it is league cup for your youngsters and for Lampard to get some vindication. Your team more so than us cuz we are so much farther away that a trophy does nothing for us really.