Ole & United vs. Frank & Chelsea: who will have the better season?

romufc

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I'm the one with the agenda? Seriously? Have you read back what you've been typing?
Yes, I have been saying Frank Lampard trusts youth more than Ole.

But you are making numbers up, while I am giving you facts.
 

Dancfc

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Speaking as an England fan I'm a little bit annoyed by what Ole is doing to Greenwood.

From what I've seen (especially in the youth cup clash between United and Chelsea last season) his potential is absolutely obscene but he's been drafted into a role he's simply not ready for. The responsibility being placed on his shoulders at this age is huge and if all goes wrong could do him some damage psychologically.

Flicking between 3rd choice striker and shitting all over youth level should be what Greenwood is doing this year, not being thrown in to try and save what is not far off being an all time collapse.
 

Velvet Revolver

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This is has to be purely judged on Ole and Frank not Ed and Roman. Chelsea lost their best player, Transfer Ban! United brought in 3 good players and got rid of dead wood. Based on the position on the table and the style of play there is a clear winner. More than results and points it seems like Chelsea manager, coaches and players seem to know what to do! while we are still 'rebuilding' for a unseen future!
 

charlenefan

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Yes, I have been saying Frank Lampard trusts youth more than Ole.

But you are making numbers up, while I am giving you facts.
Lampard trusts youth that are ready for PL football. As you're all about the facts here's one for you CHO, Mount, Abraham and Tomori have between them a total of 361 top flight appearances. Do you know how many Greenwood, Gomes and Chong have between them? 28.
 

romufc

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Lampard trusts youth that are ready for PL football. As you're all about the facts here's one for you CHO, Mount, Abraham and Tomori have between them a total of 369 top flight games. Do you know how many Greenwood, Gomes and Chong have between them? 28.
Okay let me bring more facts. Top Flight football is Premier League.

Tomori - 6 appearances
Mountd - 8 appearances
CHO - 14 appearances
Abraham - 40 appearances

Again, I dont get where these so called facts are coming from?


Also this is the quote from my first message

Exactly, it is all about coaching. The funny thing is Ole keeps telling us he trusts youth.. but this isn't exactly true. From our young team, McT, Rash, Martial, Shaw were all established prior to Ole's arrival.

James is a new signing and AWB and the later is proven in PL.

He has given Greenwood a chance but apart from that, no one really
I didn't say Gomes or Chong should be getting more game times, I am only eluding to the fact that people saying Ole is using youth is incorrect because many of them were starters before Ole arrived.

I mention Greenwood as many in the caf like you are saying he is too young whereas Lamps is utilising players with similar age just fine.

He is trusting them with limited PL experience.
 

mav_9me

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We also have Rashford, Martial, Shaw, Tuanzebe and Periera who are just as far into their careers. James looks pretty hardened as well by the championship.

I'd like to see how Lampard's Chelsea look come the end of the season but he looks to be a very promising young manger. Remains to seen if this is just the start or a strong reflection of his qualities as a coach. Ole after a good early run has looked out of place at this level, really.

What I like about the Lampard is how clearly his team seem to be playing the way he wants them.
There are a lot of confounders, with transfer ban, quality of rest of squad, readiness of youngsters.

But the bold part is the bottom line when you compare the two as coaches.
 

NinjaFletch

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I think actual first team football is top flight football
Obviously top flight football refers to football played at the top flight i.e. the Premier League.

I actually think you're making a valid point about senior football though, which is why it's particularly silly to get yourself embroiled in a debate where about what a word means.
 

nokillingmoths

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Yeah good shout, senior football is what they've played a lot of but thats not top flight football.

Obviously senior football is valuable.
 

filibuster

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I think that comparisons between Chelsea and United should be avoided, as there are clear differences in both players and board strategy, and as for now, Chelsea does better than expected, whereas United worse.

The readiness of the young players at the club is not Lampard's achievement, what is though, is the way he deals with them. Everyone knew he was a leader and a true professional as a player, so now he can pass those qualities to the young players. And that is huge, as young players who are coming through have talent and ability, but they need to be shown that talent is not the only prerequisite for success.

Someone above tried to put Ole in a bad light by arguing that Chelsea kids wouldn't be as successful at United under Ole, as they are at Chelsea under Lampard, which is very convenient. But maybe the question should be, would Ole (in the same conditions as Lampard) do better with Chelsea kids at Chelsea than with the same kids, but raised at United?

I don't know who is a better manager between Lampard and Ole, as there is still a lot to be seen from Lampard at this level to make such statements, but first signs are good for Lampard.

What is actually quite clear to me, is that Ole was set up to fail this season, and that is a joint fault of him and the people above. You tried with Moyes and LVG to establish some kind of new philosophy and a new team. Moyes was a failure but LVG was on to something, but you didn't have enough patience and went for Jose's quick-fix, and again failed to trust the process, as his quick-fix was partially successful in the second season. 2nd place was the best anyone (bar City) could have hoped for that year.

MU needs core restructuring to come back stronger, but unfortunately (for this situation) your fanbase is used to success and that builds unnecessary pressure, which naturally invites the quick-fix again and again, but that will never yield long term results.
 
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littleman

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How can we not compare just because there are differences? If that's the standard, no two things are ever comparable.
 

Pow

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Lampard deserves huge credit. The back lash he got at the start of the season when the results werent there were over the top.
He could have easily conformed to play the experience giroud willian pedro etc but didnt.
 

United Hobbit

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I thought after we pummeled Chelsea in the opening game Lampard was in for a rough ride this season however crucially his Chelsea side are moving forward, Ole's United are moving backwards

Lampard had to come in to the loss of their best player, Hazard, we have retained ours in Pogba

Why are so many of our key players injured while I don't think any of Chelsea's are (watch Tammy get injured as he's doing really well for my fantasy team!)

Yes Chelsea are leaking at least a goal a game but how many clean sheets have we kept this season? At least they can score to make up for it and while I haven't really seen them since our game sound exciting to watch I did see the Super Cup with Liverpool and actually feel Chelsea should have won

Lampard has benched Pulisic who was Chelsea's last "big" signing before their ban while at United the usual suspects continue to serve up awful performances, I know however some of this is to do with injuries but why are the players getting injured so often, leaving Ole in this position?

Why are Chelsea's younger players stepping up when ours are struggling? How are they being coached? I'd be interested to know the age difference between our young players and Chelsea's I think ours are younger though. Yes you could argue Ole wasnt allowed to replace Lukaku so is having to use Greenwood due to Martial's prolonged absence but then Lampard couldn't sign anyone due to the ban and they lost Hazard

Why is Abraham scoring goals when Rashford isnt being coached to be in the correct place to score goals?

Lampard had Derby playing good football against us last season, I think it was in the league cup

Chelsea are able to score goals to make up for their dodgy defence. Yes we have slightly improved the defence but still cant keep consistent clean sheets, however crucially we also cant score goals

Out of interest what is Lampard's backroom staff and coaching team like are they experienced? I don't think it particularly helps Ole that he has a very inexperienced team around him which agreed someone like Pep or Klopp could cope with, however Ole has Carrick who was supposed to be learning the ropes under Jose, who then got fired & McKenna & yes Phelan worked under Sir Alex but he has been away from the PL for several years let's not forget
 

Josep Dowling

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They wouldn't be flourishing at our club under Ole. Maybe Lampard is actually a good manager
There is some truth to this I get that. I’m not defending Ole, he’s clearly out of his depth as a manager. With the current players available I feel any manager would struggle though. It’s the lack of players in the team that’s the biggest problem at the moment, even when our entire squad is fully fit.
 

Dancfc

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Out of interest what is Lampard's backroom staff and coaching team like are they experienced? I
Jody Morris, Joe Edwards and Eddie Newton.

The former two have been promoted from the youth set up (via a year with Frank in Derby in Jody's case) while Eddie was assistant to Di Matteo and Hudson mark two.

So in other words not at all really.
 

CM10

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Ole's fate was sealed the second one of these comparison threads were made, they never turn out favourably for us.
 

Josep Dowling

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We also have Rashford, Martial, Shaw, Tuanzebe and Periera who are just as far into their careers. James looks pretty hardened as well by the championship.

I'd like to see how Lampard's Chelsea look come the end of the season but he looks to be a very promising young manger. Remains to seen if this is just the start or a strong reflection of his qualities as a coach. Ole after a good early run has looked out of place at this level, really.

What I like about the Lampard is how clearly his team seem to be playing the way he wants them.
Periera is 25 and should have been sold a long time ago. How it’s taken this long for the club to realise he’s crap is laughable. Couldn’t even get a starting place at Almeria.

Shaw and Martial are both injured. When they play they perform as well as the Chelsea players.

Rashford gets unfair criticism imo and I also feel he’s playing with an injury at the minute. Due to our lack of numbers he’s continuing to play.

Tuanzebe hasn’t had many minutes but when he has played he has looked good for us, especially against Newcastle until Ole made a bizarre decision to put Rojo CB and move him to RB.
 

ThierryHenry14

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There is some truth to this I get that. I’m not defending Ole, he’s clearly out of his depth as a manager. With the current players available I feel any manager would struggle though. It’s the lack of players in the team that’s the biggest problem at the moment, even when our entire squad is fully fit.
Mou did get to 2nd place with your current players without Maguire and AWB. He said that was his biggest achievement in his career.
 

Josep Dowling

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Mou did get to 2nd place with your current players without Maguire and AWB. He said that was his biggest achievement in his career.
I said with our current injuries. You think Jose would be doing well with

Rashford-Greenwood-James

McTom-Mata-Matic

No chance.
 

ThierryHenry14

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I said with our current injuries. You think Jose would be doing well with

Rashford-Greenwood-James

McTom-Mata-Matic

No chance.
For whatever reason your management (whoever is responsible, not sure who) decided to let go Lukaku, Herrera, and Fellaini without replacement.
You guys did buy Daniel James to replace Sanchez in LW, AWB for Darmian & Valencia, Maguire for Smalling, which are all great addition to the team, but at the same time you weaken other areas.

I doubt Mou will entertain this idea. It is well known that he wanted to add Maguire (CB), Perisic (LW), Willian (RW) in your team in the summer of 2018, and he will not sell Lukaku and Fellaini either. I particularly don't understand the reason to sell Fellaini as he had been a very important weapon for you guys as a target man/focal point in the box when you guys were behind and need to play long ball. He was your hammer to break the parked bus. It seems to me your management weaken your own team and placed the trust to young players a bit prematurely.
 
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Fussball13251

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From what I have heard Lampard has a genius IQ so he shouldn't do too badly.
 
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Lee565

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United fans moan about chopping and changing managers but Chelsea have shown it can work, the difference is they seem to have their finger on the pulse when choosing their managers compared to us who always one too many steps behind and oblivious to getting a manager who's career is on upward trajectory rather than the other way down.
 

billybee99

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I think actual first team football is top flight football
Ok you are really embarrassing yourself here. You're making shite up. You're calling the Championship "top flight football". These Chelsea guys have barely any top flight experience.
 

Crashoutcassius

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This is has to be purely judged on Ole and Frank not Ed and Roman. Chelsea lost their best player, Transfer Ban! United brought in 3 good players and got rid of dead wood. Based on the position on the table and the style of play there is a clear winner. More than results and points it seems like Chelsea manager, coaches and players seem to know what to do! while we are still 'rebuilding' for a unseen future!
He is 18, lots of players have dealt with it well over years.
 

northender

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For what it's worth as a neutral, whilst I do think Lampard has more about him both tactically and in terms of personality compared to Solskjaer, being the United manager at the moment is probably a tougher job than Chelsea, which is a far better run club than United.

The stereotypical view of Chelsea is that it is a chaotic club, just because they go through a lot of managers (loads of clubs in Europe do the same). In terms of transfer business and building the complexion of the squad each season, they rarely get it wrong, hence why in spite of all their ups and downs they continue to be successful and win trophies. Yes they let Salah and De Bruyne go, all big clubs get the odd one wrong though in that sense.

They have ensured that all the young players being integrated this season are backed up by experienced options.

Compare Abraham to Rashford for example. Rashford isn't playing well but it is difficult having so much weight on his shoulders at this point in his development. The club not recruiting a striker and expecting him to be the main man is so naive. Abraham is backed up by a World Cup winning no.9, Giroud, should he drop off a bit or need a game or two out of the side. Hudson-Odoi and Pulisic can be rotated with the likes of Pedro and Willian. Same with Reece James and Azpilicueta.

So whilst it sounds all well and good pining for the old 'United way' playing loads of youngsters, it just won't work without (quality) experience alongside it and that is where United have got the management of their squad and transfer business massively wrong.
 

amolbhatia50k

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Even when Lampard wasn't getting results his imprint of the team was evident. And many of us here said that he seemed an impressive coach even then. Unless this is all just manager bump again (as it's still a short sample), he's clearly a manager with a bright future (whether a the top or somwhat below), whereas there are serious doubts over Ole is capable of being a PL manager.

I've actually enjoyed watching Chelsea this season. And that's bonkers as I never enjoy watching them. There's a very definitive style of play that they employer. You could even see it in the games they didn't win against Liverpool for example.
 

SambaBoy

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For what it's worth as a neutral, whilst I do think Lampard has more about him both tactically and in terms of personality compared to Solskjaer, being the United manager at the moment is probably a tougher job than Chelsea, which is a far better run club than United.

The stereotypical view of Chelsea is that it is a chaotic club, just because they go through a lot of managers (loads of clubs in Europe do the same). In terms of transfer business and building the complexion of the squad each season, they rarely get it wrong, hence why in spite of all their ups and downs they continue to be successful and win trophies. Yes they let Salah and De Bruyne go, all big clubs get the odd one wrong though in that sense.

They have ensured that all the young players being integrated this season are backed up by experienced options.

Compare Abraham to Rashford for example. Rashford isn't playing well but it is difficult having so much weight on his shoulders at this point in his development. The club not recruiting a striker and expecting him to be the main man is so naive. Abraham is backed up by a World Cup winning no.9, Giroud, should he drop off a bit or need a game or two out of the side. Hudson-Odoi and Pulisic can be rotated with the likes of Pedro and Willian. Same with Reece James and Azpilicueta.

So whilst it sounds all well and good pining for the old 'United way' playing loads of youngsters, it just won't work without (quality) experience alongside it and that is where United have got the management of their squad and transfer business massively wrong.
Good post.

Came in here to make the same point about Abraham having Giroud in back-up, compared to Martial/Rashford having no-one.
 

charlenefan

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Ok you are really embarrassing yourself here. You're making shite up. You're calling the Championship "top flight football". These Chelsea guys have barely any top flight experience.
Who are you?
 

Raees

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Personally think Lampard is more likely in long term to hold on to his job and transform his side for the better. Having said that, he's starting with a weaker squad than ours on paper and there are question marks over fitness of Kante, experience of centre backs etc.

Its a toss of a coin who finishes higher this season - should be United but wouldn't put it past Chelsea as they look a more adept side tactically in terms of patterns of attacking play, and I think Lampard has more of a drive about him than Ole.
You look at the patterns of play Lampard has imprinted on his side and the tempo, enthusiasm running through that squad - he’s clearly a coach with talent. Not the finished article by any means but his future is bright and by each passing week the gap between him and someone like Ole increasing at a rapid rate.

Lampard seems to actually have a vision and direction - Ole seems to have a vague idea of pressing and running and that is about it at this stage.
 

Massive Spanner

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Is there even a comparison here anymore? it's obvious Lampard is potentially top class manager and Ole is nowhere near a PL or even Championship standard one.

The football Chelsea play and the level he's got his younger players performing at is seriously impressive considering he only took over in the summer, as is their rapid improvement all round. If they strengthen their defense next summer they'll be back challenging at the top again.