Ole & United vs. Frank & Chelsea: who will have the better season?

[ottosec]

Lampard. It's still early days for him, and we don't know for sure if he will keep it up and end up a good manager for Chelsea.

But we know for sure that Ole is crap.

 

[BridgeBanter]

You serious? Our entire back 4 would get into their team, also Pogba and Martial. Chelsea's squad is not better than ours but they just play to their abilities unlike us.

Rudiger starts in defence over any United defender.

 

[SirReginald]

With all due respect to United, everyone knows your lack of depth in midfield and attack is brutally murdering you. Your defence isnt that bad but I personally wouldn't want to depend on Jones for cover when the boy has had so many injuries and doesnt have a best position.

In comparison to Chelsea, our strength is Midfield. A little bit more experience for the defence and Abraham we will be more than fine. The rate of development from Tomori is outstanding, he will be an absolute monster and a CB in the Ferdinand mould. But we still make silly errors especially at set pieces

 

[mu4c_20le]

The stuff about better squad and all is rubbish.

Do you see Lampard coaching the likes of Mata, Lingard, Shaw and AWB into playing his style of football?

 

[dove]

Do you see Lampard coaching the likes of Mata, Lingard, Shaw and AWB into playing his style of football?

Do you see Ole coaching anyone into any style of football? Every single player got worse since he took over.

 

[mu4c_20le]

Do you see Ole coaching anyone into any style of football? Every single player got worse since he took over.

This isn't even about Ole anymore, its the state of our squad, and our club

 

[Abhinav]

Fair play to Lampard, didn’t think Chelsea would be doing so well. Having said that, it’s still early days and a lot of matches to play yet. Last season Arsenal went on a great run and everyone was hailing Emery, so lets wait and see how Chelsea carry on.​

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Do you see Lampard coaching the likes of Mata, Lingard, Shaw and AWB into playing his style of football?

Do you see Ole coaching any team in that style of football?

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Do you see Ole coaching anyone into any style of football? Every single player got worse since he took over.

Bingo

 

[Greck]

Do you see Lampard coaching the likes of Mata, Lingard, Shaw and AWB into playing his style of football?

Have you forgotten this guy managed Derby and had even worse players playing his style..only just last season. Yeah yeah, let me guess, they too have a better squad than us?

 

[amolbhatia50k]

This isn't even about Ole anymore, its the state of our squad, and our club

Of course. Nothing is ever about Ole. Except when we go on a honeymoon period run. Then he's a genuis of course.

He's been completely rubbish regardless the state of "the club".

 

[Oldyella]

If we're just taking this season in to account thus far I agree that only Maguire and Pogba (based on talent alone) would get into our best XI from the United team. AWB has been solid defensively but offers basically nil going forward so I wouldn't swap for him.

Our midfield and attack have been light years better so far. And that's without Kante for most of it and RLC (our best player during the run-in last season) for all of it.

Think our defense will improve dramatically once Rüdiger, Kante and Emerson are back for good.

If you had compared the squads pre season though, they were pretty even. Maybe your squad having a slight edge being a little more experienced.

They are being coached to look like a better side though, with an actual style of play rather than sit deep and pray for goals on the break and look better for it. Swap managers and i'm pretty sure the conversation would be skewing the other way.

 

[mu4c_20le]

Have you forgotten this guy managed Derby and had even worse players playing his style..only just last season. Yeah yeah, let me guess, they too have a better squad than us?

He had at least 4 players on loan from Chelsea during his time there. He deserves credit for his coaching because he clearly knows what he wants from his players, but my point is that with the squad that we have now, any manager is set up to fail, including Lampard, unless he is given permission to completely gut the squad. And that is if there are even any takers for the ones we want rid.

Of course. Nothing is ever about Ole. Except when we go on a honeymoon period run. Then he's a genuis of course.

He's been completely rubbish regardless the state of "the club".

Unfortunately your hatred for Ole had blinded you from any sensible discussion.

 

[Kostur]

No I haven’t.

Well yes, let me lay it out for you then. You've said that you probably wouldn't have had Abraham ahead of Rashford and Martial before the season, which is a fairly reasonable because I believe that if we did a poll most people would agree, not just United fans, and then contradicted what you've said before by saying that you'd pick Abraham on current form, which indicates that Lampard is indeed doing great job and Ole is doing shit job.

 

[Greck]

He had at least 4 players on loan from Chelsea during his time there. He deserves credit for his coaching because he clearly knows what he wants from his players, but my point is that with the squad that we have now, any manager is set up to fail, including Lampard, unless he is given permission to completely gut the squad. And that is if there are even any takers for the ones we want rid.

Unfortunately your hatred for Ole had blinded you from any sensible discussion.

What's your definition of 'fail' in this context? Can we get a definite statement from you saying Pep, Poch or even Lampard after 8 months in charge couldn't do better than 15th place and a 20% win rate if they were our manager?

 

[Yagami]

He had at least 4 players on loan from Chelsea during his time there. He deserves credit for his coaching because he clearly knows what he wants from his players, but my point is that with the squad that we have now, any manager is set up to fail, including Lampard, unless he is given permission to completely gut the squad. And that is if there are even any takers for the ones we want rid.

Unfortunately your hatred for Ole had blinded you from any sensible discussion.

Come on, man! No one hates Solskjaer. Saying he's a rubbish manager isn't hating.

 

[Gandalf Greyhame]

Lampard is going to be Chelsea's SAF. I just can't unsee the similarities. I can't unsee the football.

 

[LJJT]

Well yes, let me lay it out for you then. You've said that you probably wouldn't have had Abraham ahead of Rashford and Martial before the season, which is a fairly reasonable because I believe that if we did a poll most people would agree, not just United fans, and then contradicted what you've said before by saying that you'd pick Abraham on current form, which indicates that Lampard is indeed doing great job and Ole is doing shit job.

No it doesn’t. Let me lay it out for you pal. Abraham was playing for Aston Villa last season. Lampards had nothing to do with his development. Abraham is a better number 9 than Rashford. Some might argue he’s a better 9 than martial. Rashford and martial are both better outwide than Abraham. Abraham would likely play centre forward for us right now with martial and Rashford either side. Lampard has had nothing to do with Abraham’s development. It’s just he’s a better central striker than Rashford and arguably martial. It’s nothing to do with any manager

 

[Lee565]

It's hard to not believe Lampard would be starting rashford if he had him when he took over.

I think Daniel James would also be in with a shout of being on the right wing for Chelsea with willian being his competition. Sounds crazy but I think Pereira and fred would look a lot better under Lampard and in his system as well, there is also Tuanzebe who i believe Lampard would have trusted more compared the "I believe in the youth" Solskjear who only gave him a chance for a start in the premier league because of injuries.

I mean could it be that Chelsea's players are looking good because they have a good manager and our players looking awful because we have a poor manager and the track record for Ole backs that up?

 

[mu4c_20le]

What's your definition of 'fail' in this context? Can we get a definite statement from you saying Pep, Poch or even Lampard after 8 months in charge couldn't do better than 15th place and a 20% win rate if they were our manager?

Failing could either be results or performances on the pitch, or both. In my post I am referring to our current predicament of failing to produce any sort of cohesive attacking football. I think those three managers could produce a better win rate than 20% yeah, although that stat is from less than ten games? Still, I consider those managers to be better than Ole, yes. But I don't think we're going to see anything similar to the likes of how Spurs or Chelsea play, because we don't have the players to do it. Our biggest problem is that somehow, after so many millions of pounds spent, we still don't have proper wingers. We don't have midfielders with the experience and discipline to provide the stability to control games, we don't have attacking fullbacks, and very mediocre squad players. I'm not completely blaming the squad and absolving Ole, but I find it unrealistic to compare him whenever we see another team play attacking football successfully.

 

[passing-wind]

I think that’s a great assessment of Lampard time so far.

There’s a lot of revisionist history going on here. When Hazard left this summer alot of people said that Chelsea would be lucky to make top 6. Now people seem like it’s been obvious all along Chelsea had a better team all along.

This doesn’t give enough credit to the work and influence Frankie has had on this team in such short time. It’s still early days but what Frank Lampard is doing with this Chelsea team right now is incredible

100%. There's a massive difference between hindsight and short term estimation.

 

[Un4givableB]

Why do we set the bar so low for Solskjaer, Lampard has been a manager for just more than a year, Solskjaer has been a manager for 10 years about the same time as Pochettino.

 

[Kostur]

No it doesn’t. Let me lay it out for you pal. Abraham was playing for Aston Villa last season. Lampards had nothing to do with his development. Abraham is a better number 9 than Rashford. Some might argue he’s a better 9 than martial. Rashford and martial are both better outwide than Abraham. Abraham would likely play centre forward for us right now with martial and Rashford either side. Lampard has had nothing to do with Abraham’s development. It’s just he’s a better central striker than Rashford and arguably martial. It’s nothing to do with any manager

Alonso a better left back than shaw, Azpi been best right back in prem since he arrived. Centre backs, yes I agree Maguire. Lindelof is a maybe. Martial wouldn’t get in this team but yes pogba would. There keeper is as good as ours if not better, their midfield 2/3 is better than ours , mount is better than any attacking mid we have, William better right winger than we have, Abraham better than Rashford. Their squad is better than ours.

Maybe not but he is now

Well I don't think it's me who needs the laying out, you're just constantly contradicting yourself with each passing post.

 

[LJJT]

Well I don't think it's me who needs the laying out, you're just constantly contradicting yourself with each passing post.

No I’m not mate. I’m saying if Abraham played for us he’d play centre forward.and Chelsea have a better playing squad than us

 

[Dr. StrangeHate]

This place is comical. Lampard is in his honeymoon phase still just like Ole was in his first 3 months. Lampards taken on a far more complete, well rounded squad and transfer ban and injuries have limited a lot of decisions he’s had to make cos they’ve been made for him. Everyone creaming themselves over how well Lampard is doing vs how Oles doing need to chill out a bit and see how things are looking in a few months time.

Can a transfer ban be a win?
We finished 10 points ahead of Chelsea a season back and were 6 points behind Chelsea last season. So before this season there wasn't much difference squad/point wise between the clubs, you only have to look at the early pages in this thread to see that. One club did have a transfer ban though.
I am hoping this is Lampard's honeymoon period just like Ole's but let's not pretend Chelsea have a complete squad as that implies ours is as well.

 

[Dr. StrangeHate]

No I’m not mate. I’m saying if Abraham played for us he’d play centre forward.and Chelsea have a better playing squad than us

During Ole's run last season, most would have been saying only Hazard, Kante, RB and Rudiger get into our squad. The quantifiable figure we have is that we were 10 points ahead of them two seasons back and 6 points behind last season. One club has a transfer ban while the other did not. So their squad cannot be all that compared to us as you are implying.

 

[LJJT]

During Ole's run last season, most would have been saying only Hazard, Kante, RB and Rudiger get into our squad. The quantifiable figure we have is that we were 10 points ahead of them two seasons back and 6 points behind last season. One club has a transfer ban while the other did not. So their squad cannot be all that compared to us as you are implying.

It’s all down to opinions. I don’t really understand some of your reasoning. But do your own combined 11 and see what you think. I think it would be mostly Chelsea players in it with 2, max 3 from our team in it. Fingers crossed we get a good win tomorrow then we can start seeing less of the negative bull shit on this forum

 

[royboy16]

I'm not. Could see the ability there with Derby.

Premier league is a much tougher league for a rookie manager.
He also has Chelsea in 4th which is impressive.

 

[SirReginald]

It’s all down to opinions. I don’t really understand some of your reasoning. But do your own combined 11 and see what you think. I think it would be mostly Chelsea players in it with 2, max 3 from our team in it. Fingers crossed we get a good win tomorrow then we can start seeing less of the negative bull shit on this forum

In this moment, disregarding future ability, it would be:

De gea
Azpi Rudiger Maguire Alonso
Kante Jorginho
Willian Pogba Hudson Odoi
Abraham

Bench: kepa, AWB, Tomori, RLC, Kovacic, Rashford, Martial

 

[AC1689]

By any chance were you one of the people on here saying Ole was a better manager than current Mourinho, when Ole/United was on the winning run?

No I was not. I never wanted Ole to be appointed on a permanent basis. He had no credentials for the job. It was an idiot appointment then, and has been shown to be just that.

 

[Rista]

Absolutely love this idea that having a transfer ban helped Lampard because that meant decisions had already been made for him. It is especially funny coming from people who think Ole has not been backed in the transfer market by only spending 130m on two defenders.

Before the season started no one here thought Chelsea would be any good. In fact, many said this is the worst Chelsea team in a long time. Perhaps the reason there would now be more Chelsea players in the combined 11 is because all our good players have actually regressed under Ole and the opposite is happening for Chelsea?

 

[passing-wind]

It's hard to not believe Lampard would be starting rashford if he had him when he took over.

I think Daniel James would also be in with a shout of being on the right wing for Chelsea with willian being his competition. Sounds crazy but I think Pereira and fred would look a lot better under Lampard and in his system as well, there is also Tuanzebe who i believe Lampard would have trusted more compared the "I believe in the youth" Solskjear who only gave him a chance for a start in the premier league because of injuries.

I mean could it be that Chelsea's players are looking good because they have a good manager and our players looking awful because we have a poor manager and the track record for Ole backs that up?

Thankyou for the hindsight people are turning this into to much of a squad vs squad debate which is besides the point. The reality is if you give Lampard this United team I reckon he out-does Solskjaer in almost every department bar the defensive structure.

There's more "United" in Lampard's ethos as a manager and more "Chelsea" cultured management in Solskjaer, despite Ole playing for this club. I think Ole should be authentic to his strengths and just set the team up being hard to beat, because he doesn't seem to have the knowledge to unearth an attacking team.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Unfortunately your hatred for Ole had blinded you from any sensible discussion.

Not really. I have plenty of quality discussion here on topic when the other post deserves it. Biased nonsense /rhetoric needs to be called out though.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Absolutely love this idea that having a transfer ban helped Lampard because that meant decisions had already been made for him. It is especially funny coming from people who think Ole has not been backed in the transfer market by only spending 130m on two defenders.

Before the season started no one here thought Chelsea would be any good. In fact, many said this is the worst Chelsea team in a long time. Perhaps the reason there would now be more Chelsea players in the combined 11 is because all our good players have actually regressed under Ole and the opposite is happening for Chelsea?

Nobody here gave them a chance for top 4. They were almost disqualified.

 

[Pow]

Nobody here gave them a chance for top 4. They were almost disqualified.

Yep. Surprised to see the 180 by some who are now saying we have a far better squad than you when the posts at the start of these sort of threads highlighted a poor squad, transfer ban, losing our best player who was directly involved in about 50% of the goals last season. I for one had this as a free hit for frank and cant believe how well the season is going.

 

[terraloo]

“He had at least 4 players on loan from Chelsea during his time there. He deserves credit for his coaching because he clearly knows what he wants from his players, but my point is that with the squad that we have now, any manager is set up to fail, including Lampard, unless he is given permission to completely gut the squad. And that is if there are even any takers for the ones we want rid.”

Think it was actually 2. Mason Mount and Tomori.

In terms of gutting the squad FL has done just that. Chelsea’s starting 11 yesterday contained just 4 of the players that started the EL final against Arsenal.

Of course FL might turn out to be a flop, every manager runs the same risk but what’s abundantly clear is he is imposing a style of play and freedom rarely seen at Chelsea let alone in the PL.

People talk about defensive frailties but that is the gamble when playing a midfield whose first thought is about getting forward and to a large degree leaving the back 4 to fend for themselves.That said FL hasn’t not been able to pick what probably most Chelsea supporters and possibly FL himself see as the strongest defensive unit.

I read earlier in the thread the question about how would the likes of Mata be coached in the system well quite simply they wouldn’t. Indeed it’s a bit the same as asking about Luiz clearly he wasn’t seen as a fit or how about Drinkwater or Zappacosta they all easily could have been retained but clearly FL wants to do it his way and with far less experienced players.

This season was said by many to be a free hit for FL .

The transfer ban has restricted matters but be under no illusion FL approach is all about him and his personality, style and above all his communication skills. The early days of Ole were more about the previous managers players all that he offered that was different was an arm around the shoulder.

If you want to compare look more at Di Matteo replacing AVB and just how disappointing things became once the appointment became permanent.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Yep. Surprised to see the 180 by some who are now saying we have a far better squad than you when the posts at the start of these sort of threads highlighted a poor squad, transfer ban, losing our best player who was directly involved in about 50% of the goals last season. I for one had this as a free hit for frank and cant believe how well the season is going.

The 180 is all about deluding themselves into believing our squad is the sole problem (or should I say, our squad and owners) and not the manager.
It’s unfortunately pretty damn clear that OGS is a terrible manager at this level.

 

[Dr. StrangeHate]

It’s all down to opinions. I don’t really understand some of your reasoning. But do your own combined 11 and see what you think. I think it would be mostly Chelsea players in it with 2, max 3 from our team in it. Fingers crossed we get a good win tomorrow then we can start seeing less of the negative bull shit on this forum

In this moment, disregarding future ability, it would be:

De gea
Azpi Rudiger Maguire Alonso
Kante Jorginho
Willian Pogba Hudson Odoi
Abraham

Bench: kepa, AWB, Tomori, RLC, Kovacic, Rashford, Martial

Before the season had started it would have been:

De Gea

AWB Rudiger Maguire Alonso
Kante Jorginho
Willian Pogba Martial
Rashford

If we would have had Herrera still then you could have make a case for Herrera instead of Jorginho. Its just that Lampard is getting everyone to perform at 110% while under Ole our players have regressed. In saying that I still hope this is Lampard's honeymoon period.

 

[Needham]

"Two poor squads." It seems that you simply have to not be Liverpool of City to have a "poor" squad. That's total banf. We have a poor squad. Chelsea, Tottenham, Arsenal, Leicester etc who are experiencing mixed fortunes all have plenty of decent material to work with. Ole wouldn't know what to do with it I fear.

 

[antihenry]

People talk about defensive frailties but that is the gamble when playing a midfield whose first thought is about getting forward and to a large degree leaving the back 4 to fend for themselves.That said FL hasn’t not been able to pick what probably most Chelsea supporters and possibly FL himself see as the strongest defensive unit.

That's what many seem to forget. Tomori was meant to go on loan, but after David Luiz was informed he's not a guaranteed starter anymore and demanded to leave,Tomori had to stay, because we couldn't sign a replacement due to the ban, and we were already short on numbers at the back. Rudiger, our most expericenced CB has played a whole of 45 minutes this season in between injuries. Christensen, who was supposed to be a second choice after Rudiger, is out injured, too. As a result, our current starting CBs are Zouma, who at best was supposed to be 4th option off the bench and a youngster, who played in a Championship last season. Emerson started brightly n the left, got injured in September and hasn't been back yet. James started season on the injured list, too. On top of it, Kante, who is great at providing cover for the back four, has been sidelined for weeks and is still out.

So far we've never had anything close to our strongest possible backline and, hopefully, when we get over our injury problems our defense will get much tighter.