Ole v Spurs

balaks

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Challenging for the title implies a good chance of winning it. At the moment, Liverpool are favourites with City an outsider. Spurs are not even in the equation, all statistical models have Spurs at sub 5%. Of course anything can happen in football, but when it comes to general performance and remaining fixtures, Spurs aren't in the picture for the title.

City's chances of a title challenge are hanging on a thread and one bad result could basically kill any chance of it. So no, I wouldn't say City are challenging for the title either, and if you insist on them being challengers its a very weak challenge.

Generally speaking you can say a team is challenging when you get to the business end of the season, usually the last 10 games give or take, and are 1st place or a few points from 1st place. 6 points behind in January is not a title challenge by any sensible definition, otherwise the term title challenge would become meaningless because so many teams would be within it that never got close to winning the league.
We are the only team along with City with any sort of chance of catching Liverpool - we are in a title race - ok we could be in a better position of course however to right us off completely and dismiss us I think is a bit unfair. Liverpool may be in the middle of a bit of a wobble, who knows how they will react over the next few games - lots can change and plenty more points to win.
 

LoveFootball

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Let's see if he can get anyway close again to those numbers in his entire career before you slap yourself on the back for winning the internet.
I don't think Salah is world tbh, he was on world class form last season thought and carried his team to the CL final, that's what world class players do; Pogba did that, but Kane? Never. Comeback when he helps you win a big trophy 1st.

Kane is your typical case of English/British fans overrating the ability of an English player because he did a little step over or a piece of skills. Look at how now Rashford is better than Martial because he did an elastico against Bournemouth defenders and every flaws in his game have practically been erased from people's mind.
Kane is a good striker but reading people on here, you'll think he's a Suarez reincarnated.
 

balaks

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I don't think Salah is world tbh, he was on world class form last season thought and carried his team to the CL final, that's what world class players do; Pogba did that, but Kane? Never. Comeback when he helps you win a big trophy 1st.

Kane is your typical case of English/British fans overrating the ability of an English player because he did a little step over or a piece of skills. Look at how now Rashford is better than Martial because he did an elastico against Bournemouth defenders and every flaws in his game have practically been erased from people's mind.
Kane is a good striker but reading people on here, you'll think he's a Suarez reincarnated.
I think you are insane but it's your right to be wrong.
 

SquishyMcSquish

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Yeah I like Wijnaldum as well he's a good player.
I don't know, I just think that although your midfield options could definitely be better I don't think you're as far behind as you think you are.
The way I look at it is if we had your squad, along with a really good manager id be let down if we weren't near the top at the end of the season.
When I said that about Kane I meant given how good he is along with the rest of your team, I should have articulated myself better.
That's fair. I don't think we're that far behind, but just enough that it'll lead to a relatively comfortable gap by the end of the season. I think Liverpool went out and made the difference this season by bringing in a top class goalkeeper, added great depth in midfield and Shaqiri will get them a few points too. I think it has to remembered that whilst Pochettino is a very good manager, so are Pep and Klopp! They're two world class coaches who have built two excellent teams off the back of a very significant budget. The City squad in particular is unreal and we're 2 points behind them right now.

Those two really have set a ridiculous standard - City with 100 points last season, Liverpool this campaign having only lost once and accumulated 54 points .. they'd be totally out of sight most years.
 

LoveFootball

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Right, so to prove my point a single player in English football other than Kane managed 40+, and he had a total freak season in which his team reached a CL final. He was POTY and a total fecking phenomenon, yet you think to be considered world class a striker has to score 40+ EVERY SEASON as a minimum baseline?
Salah was world class player last season. He proved it at high level. What have Kane managed? Nothing. The like of Ings and Carrol had season where they exceeded expectations scoring a good number of goals, do you think they are world class?

Kane is a good striker, but let wait for him to do something relevant for him to be labelled "world class"
 

breakout67

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We are the only team along with City with any sort of chance of catching Liverpool - we are in a title race - ok we could be in a better position of course however to right us off completely and dismiss us I think is a bit unfair. Liverpool may be in the middle of a bit of a wobble, who knows how they will react over the next few games - lots can change and plenty more points to win.
Putting Spurs in the same Bracket as City is disingenuous in my opinion. There are so many factors that put City at a level above Tottenham, basically every way to assess a football team. Creating chances, preventing chances, starting eleven quality, squad depth, manager quality, league table, goal difference.

I'm struggling to think of anywhere where Spurs can actually beat City, it's arguable whether your best player even gets into their team, that's how stacked their team is. This is a city team without their own best player by the way, a fit and firing De Bruyne will probably be what wins them the title if they do win it, they are unstoppable with him in the team.
 

LoveFootball

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What would the answer even prove? You've named 3 indisputably world class players in their prime, including one of the greatest of all fecking time. If he picks CR7 does that make Kane not a world class striker now?

Christ, why I am still even doing this :lol:.
No need to argue again. Kane is not world class yet.
 

balaks

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Putting Spurs in the same Bracket as City is disingenuous in my opinion. There are so many factors that put City at a level above Tottenham, basically every way to assess a football team. Creating chances, preventing chances, starting eleven quality, squad depth, manager quality, league table, goal difference.

I'm struggling to think of anywhere where Spurs can actually beat City, it's arguable whether your best player even gets into their team, that's how stacked their team is. This is a city team without their own best player by the way, a fit and firing De Bruyne will probably be what wins them the title if they do win it, they are unstoppable with him in the team.
It doesn't always work like that though - we know that and it's also part of the magic of football. Look at what Leicester did. Not saying that we will win it or anything but I do think that to utterly dismiss us is a bit premature.
 

SquishyMcSquish

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Salah was world class player last season. He proved it at high level. What have Kane managed? Nothing. The like of Ings and Carrol had season where they exceeded expectations scoring a good number of goals, do you think they are world class?

Kane is a good striker, but let wait for him to do something relevant for him to be labelled "world class"
:lol:

I too remember when Andy Carroll and Danny Ings won the golden boot twice and then scored 40+ in a season.
 
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If giving the choice between prime Suarez/CR7/Lewa an Kane who'd you pick for United? And please don't let the English bias cloud your choice.
It’s not about PRIME, anything. I’d take Pele over the lot of them - what a stupid comparison you are trying to make.

Of all those players, in the here and now (because that’s what matters, and you can’t turn back time, can you?), I’d take Kane.
 

balaks

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Salah was world class player last season. He proved it at high level. What have Kane managed? Nothing. The like of Ings and Carrol had season where they exceeded expectations scoring a good number of goals, do you think they are world class?

Kane is a good striker, but let wait for him to do something relevant for him to be labelled "world class"
Ok so Salah is a proven world class player because of one exceptional season but despite Kane proving more than Salah over a longer period he is comparable to Ings and Carroll. Ok - just wondering if you actually read your stuff at all before you post it?
 

SquishyMcSquish

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Ok so Salah is a proven world class player because of one exceptional season but despite Kane proving more than Salah over a longer period he is comparable to Ings and Carroll. Ok - just wondering if you actually read your stuff at all before you post it?
I really wouldn't take it seriously, it's comedy gold.

Ings and Carroll :lol:
 

LoveFootball

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Ok so Salah is a proven world class player because of one exceptional season but despite Kane proving more than Salah over a longer period he is comparable to Ings and Carroll. Ok - just wondering if you actually read your stuff at all before you post it?
What have Kane achieved in his career so far? What makes you think he's world class?
 

balaks

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What have Kane achieved in his career so far? What makes you think he's world class?
I don't even need to prove that anymore thanks to your latest absolute belter of a post - all I need to do now is try and prove that Kane is better than Danny Ings and Andy Carroll. You really do lay down a difficult challenge.
 

breakout67

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It doesn't always work like that though - we know that and it's also part of the magic of football. Look at what Leicester did.
Mate I already said that anything can happen in football. And you can't be blamed for having some optimism. But I'm being real here. I fancy United to get top 4 as well, but I'm not gonna be blind and act as if we are in a good position.

Spurs aren't in control of their own chances of winning the league, they have to hope Liverpool and City bottle it. You've got 6 points to make up with Anfield, Stamford Bridge, Etihad and a North london Derby left. It's a monumental task for Spurs to win the league from this point.
 

balaks

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Mate I already said that anything can happen in football. And you can't be blamed for having some optimism. But I'm being real here. I fancy United to get top 4 as well, but I'm not gonna be blind and act as if we are in a good position.

Spurs aren't in control of their own chances of winning the league, they have to hope Liverpool and City bottle it. You've got 6 points to make up with Anfield, Stamford Bridge, Etihad and a North london Derby left. It's a monumental task for Spurs to win the league from this point.
It is for sure and I'm not blind to it - but like you said I'm a foolishly optimistic football fan who will hold on to that dream while there is still a chance.
 

SquishyMcSquish

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Mate I already said that anything can happen in football. And you can't be blamed for having some optimism. But I'm being real here. I fancy United to get top 4 as well, but I'm not gonna be blind and act as if we are in a good position.

Spurs aren't in control of their own chances of winning the league, they have to hope Liverpool and City bottle it. You've got 6 points to make up with Anfield, Stamford Bridge, Etihad and a North london Derby left. It's a monumental task for Spurs to win the league from this point.
We're not winning the league. I don't think @balaks thinks we will, just that we are keeping it a possibility, no matter how small.
 

breakout67

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We're not winning the league. I don't think @balaks thinks we will, just that we are keeping it a possibility, no matter how small.
We were discussing what it means to challenge for the league. I think that Spurs are not challenging because their chances of winning it are close to zero.

Have hopes all you want, I have no right to say that a football fan can't hope. But Spurs currently challenging for the title is not reasonable in my opinion.
 

LoveFootball

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I don't even need to prove that anymore thanks to your latest absolute belter of a post - all I need to do now is try and prove that Kane is better than Danny Ings and Andy Carroll. You really do lay down a difficult challenge.
No, seriously, tell me what has Kane achieved to be world class?

Kane had a season where he managed 40 goals, it was an anomaly season like the ones Carrol and Ings had in their career. Don't know what's bizarre their.
 

SquishyMcSquish

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We were discussing what it means to challenge for the league. I think that Spurs are not challenging because their chances of winning it are close to zero.

Have hopes all you want, I have no right to say that a football fan can't hope. But Spurs currently challenging for the title is not reasonable in my opinion.
I think we're staying in with a small shout. I'm not going to go ahead and say we're putting up a serious challenge, we're very clearly a distant third favourite.

tbh I don't really think we're challenging right now, I think the loss against Wolves killed any serious talk about that.
 

balaks

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No, seriously, tell me what has Kane achieved to be world class?

Kane had a season where he managed 40 goals, it was an anomaly season like the ones Carrol and Ings had in their career. Don't know what's bizarre their.
Mate Kane is in his 6th season as a regular first teamer (well you could argue 5 as his first breakthrough season he wasn't strictly a regular) - he has scored over 30 goals in 3 of those seasons so far - he got 28 in 15/16. Is he likely to make a habit of scoring over 40 goals in a season? No probably not. Does that mean he can't be considered world class? I don't think so.

His +40 goals season I guess you could call an anomaly as it was the first time he has achieved it but his goal scoring record is one of the best around regardless.

Salah who you seem intent on comparing him with has only ever scored 20 goals or more once in his career which was last year (he is also a year older than Kane).
 
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No, seriously, tell me what has Kane achieved to be world class?

Kane had a season where he managed 40 goals, it was an anomaly season like the ones Carrol and Ings had in their career. Don't know what's bizarre their.
Honestly mate, look yourself in the mirror. Your posts are utterly embarassing.

Are you the same bloke who has been arguing that Lukuku is as good as Kane in the Lukuku thread?
 

LoveFootball

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Mate Kane is in his 6th season as a regular first teamer (well you could argue 5 as his first breakthrough season he wasn't strictly a regular) - he has scored over 30 goals in 3 of those seasons so far - he got 28 in 15/16. Is he likely to make a habit of scoring over 40 goals in a season? No probably not. Does that mean he can't be considered world class? I don't think so.

His +40 goals season I guess you could call an anomaly as it was the first time he has achieved it I guess but his goal scoring record is one of the best around regardless.
What's the definition of world class according to you? What are the criteria to be labelled with that tag?
 

SquishyMcSquish

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No, seriously, tell me what has Kane achieved to be world class?

Kane had a season where he managed 40 goals, it was an anomaly season like the ones Carrol and Ings had in their career. Don't know what's bizarre their.
Erm he scored 35 the season before, and is well on course to get around the 40 mark this season as well. In what alternate universe is that an anomaly rather than a clear sign of a career progression? He's won the Premier League golden boot twice, and has been runner up twice. It's not a fluke season, he is doing it every year.


Also, stop with the bizarre Carroll and Ings comparisons, it's really weird. You're just digging yourself in to unnecessary holes. Neither of them have ever got close to scoring as many in a season as Kane, not even in their best years.
 

balaks

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What's the definition of world class according to you? What are the criteria to be labelled with that tag?
For a player to be world class I would suggest he should be seen as one of the 5 best players in his position in the world - it is hard to define but if I was to try and do it that is what I would choose.
 

LoveFootball

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Honestly mate, look yourself in the mirror. Your posts are utterly embarassing.

Are you the same bloke who has been arguing that Lukuku is as good as Kane in the Lukuku thread?
1st answer the question I asked you. If given the choice between Suarez/CR7/Lewa and Kane, who'd you pick for United?

And no, don't think Lukaku is better than Kane.
 

breakout67

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I think we're staying in with a small shout. I'm not going to go ahead and say we're putting up a serious challenge, we're very clearly a distant third favourite.

tbh I don't really think we're challenging right now, I think the loss against Wolves killed any serious talk about that.
To be honest I don't think you were serious challengers before that. You were 6 points behind before the Wolves game anyway. Going past the banter of bottling, I think Liverpool are actually the ones in the beginning stages of a bottle. A draw would have been fine at the Etihad, but that 2nd half display from them was something else really.
 

Eckers99

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:lol:

Someone dropped a faulty firework in this thread. I've read some hilariously illogical posts on the caf but comparing top scorer in the most recent World Cup and two- time Premier League Golden Boot winner Harry Kane with Andy Carroll is right up there.

Apart from that was has he really done though?
 

M16Red

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Watched the Chelsea game the other day vs spurs - Chelsea played with no striker and were the most attacking team. The main problem will be... is it "Son"? the player that seems to roam, he was popin up all over the place. If Pogs shows up he will dominate that midfield.
 

balaks

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To be honest I don't think you were serious challengers before that. You were 6 points behind before the Wolves game anyway. Going past the banter of bottling, I think Liverpool are actually the ones in the beginning stages of a bottle. A draw would have been fine at the Etihad, but that 2nd half display from them was something else really.
I see where you are coming from but like I said - while the hope remains I'll see us a being in a title race. As for Liverpool - I agree, to be brutally honest I do not think they have played exceptionally well apart from the month running up to Christmas when they stepped it up a gear - before then in the league they were not playing well and getting quite fortunate results. Time will tell which is the real Liverpool but I do not think they will win the league if I had to bet.
 

LoveFootball

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For a player to be world class I would suggest he should be seen as one of the 5 best players in his position in the world - it is hard to define but if I was to try and do it that is what I would choose.
Suarez, CR7, Lewa, Benzema, Aubamyang, Mappe, Griezman. That's 6 players who are better than Kane in that position, so according to your criteria Kane is not world class, right?
 

balaks

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Suarez, CR7, Lewa, Benzema, Aubamyang, Mappe, Griezman. That's 6 players who are better than Kane in that position, so according to your criteria Kane is not world class, right?
That is your opinion and fair enough if you think they are all better than Kane then I hold my hands up and can say with certainty that you do not think Kane is a world class player.
 
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It’s not about PRIME, anything. I’d take Pele over the lot of them - what a stupid comparison you are trying to make.

Of all those players, in the here and now (because that’s what matters, and you can’t turn back time, can you?), I’d take Kane.
1st answer the question I asked you. If given the choice between Suarez/CR7/Lewa and Kane, who'd you pick for United?

And no, don't think Lukaku is better than Kane.
I don’t mean to quote myself, but I’ve already answered your question - see above.

Your welcome.
 

breakout67

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I see where you are coming from but like I said - while the hope remains I'll see us a being in a title race. As for Liverpool - I agree, to be brutally honest I do not think they have played exceptionally well apart from the month running up to Christmas when they stepped it up a gear - before then in the league they were not playing well and getting quite fortunate results. Time will tell which is the real Liverpool but I do not think they will win the league if I had to bet.
I was pretty fecking annoyed at the luck Liverpool was getting during their period where they were grinding out results. Several penalties not given (that tackle on Son :lol:), several offside goals, that Pickford blunder in the 5th minute of injury time (when 2 minutes were allotted by the ref :lol:). I'd say they would be 2nd place based on Merit behind City by a 2-3 points.
 

Bilbo

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I don't think Salah is world tbh, he was on world class form last season thought and carried his team to the CL final, that's what world class players do; Pogba did that, but Kane? Never. Comeback when he helps you win a big trophy 1st.

Kane is your typical case of English/British fans overrating the ability of an English player because he did a little step over or a piece of skills. Look at how now Rashford is better than Martial because he did an elastico against Bournemouth defenders and every flaws in his game have practically been erased from people's mind.
Kane is a good striker but reading people on here, you'll think he's a Suarez reincarnated.
I can't think of more than one or two clubs that wouldn't want Kane if he was available
 

SquishyMcSquish

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Suarez, CR7, Lewa, Benzema, Aubamyang, Mappe, Griezman. That's 6 players who are better than Kane in that position, so according to your criteria Kane is not world class, right?
In your opinion, sure. You think the current Benzema and Aubameyang are better than Kane? You go girl.
 

M16Red

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I think that one of the truly awesome things about this season, is that the suits have more or less surrendered it to the football gods. Appointing Ole is at best a *I really hope this works* moment for a club in absolute turmoil. One thing is coming in as manager to a team that is simply struggling with results, but Ole came to a club that struggled with results AND a toxic lockerroom if any of the reports are to be believed.

5 for 5.

In my view Ole's approach to this game will be like every other game so far. "We are Manchester United. The other team makes their gameplan after us, not the other way around".

Its on tune with what Ole already said during his first interview with reporters, that Manchester United is the big scary wolf, not the other way around. So with that in mind, I am going to simply assume that the team will be told to attack, attack, attack and attack. And play some defense, but get the ball up to Pogba. The only way the bus gets parked is if Tottenham controls the ball. Otherwise, we're in for a very fast paced hard fought game that no team wants to lose.

Of course singular players will be a focus, Alli and Kane will make you pay, Eriksen, Son, all incredible footballers. But its the same for Tottenham, they will not make light work of Pogba, Rashford, Martial or even Shaw (Seriously, how good has Shaw been recently.)

United matches are supposed to be high scoring, and I expect the team intend to score some goals. We only need to score more than they do to win. Tottenham has lost to Watford, Portsmouth and Wolverhampton. They sure can lose to Manchester United.

Tottenham is a team that is very beatable. Just treat them with the respect they deserve, no showboating, and I genuinely believe that the United offense is far superior to Tottenhams, and that will be key.

Also, having De Gea helps. He's pretty good.
The big bad wolf is coming....i see the Stretford end rising...