Zinchenko is a genuinely good buy for Arsenal, I think, but you’re right there’s no comparison to be made between him and Azpilicueta. It’s not even that close.
Oleksandr Zinchenko: The most underrated player in the PL?
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
He's decent and fills positions of need for Arsenal but he's really nothing special. I guess he's quite likely to start in CM for them what with the big lad's legal troubles but it's not totally obvious to me that long term he'd be any more than a squad player at Arsenal.
A bit more than that given how I described them but of course I get your points as well.
Of course he does because he established himself in the team a lot more, I'm more talking about their cult hero status and their attitude and professionalism that endeered themselves to fans. I appreciate Zinchenko has it all to prove away from the 'safety' of City's play style and Pep so will be interesting to see how he does going forward.
Amazing performance is strong - Zinchenko came on at half time in that game when City were struggling, as Cancelo and Foden were constantly getting in each others' way and City had no one actually making runs down the left. Zinchenko did that ably, but it's not like he was a driving force for the team. This is what I mean more or less - he's tactically flexible and will do a job, but I don't think he's ever been a vital player for City. For me he's entirely replaceable because he doesn't do anything at an especially high level, and I'd argue that's the definition of a passenger.
I don't really think anyone can ruthlessly target City at all given how much of the ball they have and how good basically every player in the team is. But if you need a specific example, Chelsea pretty much destroyed him in the CL final in 2021 - as soon as there was no DM in front of him, he was exposed badly.
Erm, the main difference between the two is that Azpilicueta is orders of magnitude better at literally everything. There's absolutely no comparison between prime Azpilicueta and Zinchenko - prime Azpilicueta was not only the best defender in the league but was also a significant attacking threat. Zinchenko has never played 1500 minutes in a league season.
He definitely isn't better technically with the ball though, which is also why Azpi can't play in the midfield.
But at FB position, yeah Azpi is better.
Zinchenko is much more technical with the ball than Azpilicueta. Azpilicueta is the better defender. Zinchenko is a technical midfielder playing full back in Peps system, Azpilicueta is a full back who is also very good now more centrally in defence.
I wasn't comparing what they've achieved as players, as Azpilicueta wins that hands down as he's been much more of a mainstay in Chelsea's team. I just see some similar characteristics and how popular they are in the dressing room & within their support.
We'll see this season, I'm very confident this was the case though. Top managers can make standard players look much better than they are. Ferguson did it time and time again for us with players that wouldn't have done much in other teams but he got the best out of them. It's seen a lot nowadays under top quality managers. Zinchenko looks like a classic case of that, a solid player that served well for Pep in his system. I don't believe for one minute that Arteta is either a good enough manager or has a good enough system in place to elevate Zinchenko. I think it's even crazier that people are talking about him playing in midfield as well.
You do know he is actually a midfielder though don't you? He played left back for City out of necessity, but for his previous clubs & for his national team he's a midfielder.
Speaking after Saturday’s 5-1 win over Watford, Guardiola was asked which area he feels Zinchenko will occupy in the long-term and replied: “In the position that we have in the midfield, in the pockets as the attacking midfielder.
“That is his position, definitely. When we brough Oleks for £2million from Ukraine, he was a No.10 – a Phil Foden position, a creative player – but the needs we had… We didn’t have a left-back for many years.
“Fabian Delph adapted incredibly well in that position and Oleks as well. That’s happened because he is well-educated, he knows exactly what it means. He adapted and said: ‘Okay, what does the team need? I’m going to do it.’
He's rubbish in defence so naturally midfield will be where you play him. The question is though is he good enough there? Playing for Ukraine is one thing but he never played there for City even when Walker and Cancelo played as the fullbacks. It's a bit of a gamble for me for £30m, think you get a decent squad player but not one that will really elevate your team.
I looked up the stats out of curiosity, and he's only ever played in midfield two times in the 5 years he's been in the PL. I know that's supposed to be his natural position and all, but he seems to be way, way down the pecking order. Maybe he'll see more game time at a slightly lower level (no offense) but it'd be very odd to sign a player and not play hi in the position where he's done reasonably well, at least numbers wise, in the last five years.
He barely played for a senior team before joining City. He's played more as a LB in the PL. It's all well and good pushing forward and playing a role like that in Pep's system surrounded by talent like De Bruyne, Gundogan etc, it's completely different going to play under an average manager with a different system and nowhere near the same quality. I'm not saying he won't play for Arsenal in midfield, I'm saying that it will sum Arsenal up if they bring him in to play in a midfield role instead of focusing on signing a much better central midfielder.
We will see, I have a feeling he is a half decent player who looks better due to playing in a brilliantly functioning team with top class coaching.
Listen, we are all guessing and predicting, me as well, and I think he does have it all to prove that he can become a good player not protected by Peps systems, but I quite like that he has a point to prove. What his peers say about his attitude, his work ethic, his desire etc should stand him in good stead, the rest is up to his ability and ultimately he needs to get out on the park and show it, I accept that. All transfers are a gamble and this 1 is no different.
Crazy that City have sold Sterling, Zinchenko and Jesus to CL competing Prem teams. Can't decide if it's supreme confidence or stupidity?
You don't have to be a driving force to not be labeled as a passenger. You can't have 11 driving forces on the team, that's not how football works, but you can still be integral in other phases of the game (retaining possession, preventing counterattacks, and so on).
Destroying is a tad bit much, he (along with Dias on that end) got baited for the goal. It was a game won on tight margins. And all full backs have those moments. Cancelo got lost in the leadup to that goal from Salah. Your own James has a few. I wouldn't say he got destroyed. Destroyed is the Bolton fullback who had the misfortune of facing Ronaldo in 2006-07.
This is absolutely nonsense. I can't think of many players who would have floundered at mid-table sides that excelled in WC United sides. If you're doing well in top class sides... Maybe you're actually a very good player?
I think you can see the profile Arsenal were going for. Their first target was Lisandro who can play LCB LB and CDM, failing that they got Zinchenko.
I find this signing a bit weird. Why would he leave City where he can play games and fight for major honours to go play second fiddle LB at Arsenal?
He must have been given assurances that he will play in midfield and maybe required to cover Tierney. Arsenal however know Tierney will be injured so he may play majority as LB anyway
Never started more than 15 league games for City in a season. That’s actually a bit mad. I know he was only ever rotational, but I thought he played more of a part in at least one or two of their title wins.
Started 10 league games last year! £30m is a great deal for City.
Started 10 league games last year! £30m is a great deal for City.
He looks good playing for Ukraine as well.
He starts at LB but when City have the ball (which they do, a lot), he moves between LB, DM, and AM positions (I don't know how to pull up heat maps but they would be more indicative of his capabilities). Plus he plays in midfield for Ukraine.
He doesn't start in midfield for City because of the lack of options at LB apart from Cancelo, and because there's the small issue of B. Silva/Gundogan/De Bruyne... plus Pep likes the idea of packing his team with midfielders (he'd start with 11 if he could
)£30 mil in todays market is like 10-15 million 15 years ago. But remember when £30 mil actually got you a decent player and not a Milner regen.
How's it nonsense? We see it consistently. Was O'Shea absolutely quality? Of course he wasn't. Ferguson took him and worked wonders with him. Henderson is a classic example under Klopp, a player that clearly isn't anywhere near world class that Klopp has elevated in his system. Zinchenko IMO fits this bill.
He did in 2 of them.
Last season I don't think his head was right with the war in Ukraine, understandably.
The fact he’s a bit of a utility player speaks volumes usually.
Good player, not great
Good player, not great
No need for heat maps, I get what you mean.He starts at LB but when City have the ball (which they do, a lot), he moves between LB, DM, and AM positions (I don't know how to pull up heat maps but they would be more indicative of his capabilities). Plus he plays in midfield for Ukraine.
He doesn't start in midfield for City because of the lack of options at LB apart from Cancelo, and because there's the small issue of B. Silva/Gundogan/De Bruyne... plus Pep likes the idea of packing his team with midfielders (he'd start with 11 if he could
Nice new tag line btw
Was that the one where he started 6 matches? Or 13? I know you’re just a wee bit of a City softy, but I don’t see how you can claim a player who starts fewer than half of the games in a league is playing an important part in said league win.
Even in terms of actual minutes, the most he has ever seen on the pitch in one season was 1474 minutes — that’s the equivalent of 16.3 full matches.
O'Shea was quality. You seem to be under the perception that if you aren't as good as Rio or Vidic, you're shit. O'Shea was a player that could play across the back line. Someone that could walk in, in case of an injury crisis, and contribute to wins. We sold him as he declined and we had younger talent, but yeah he was a quality player. You don't last long at peak United while being shit.
Same with Henderson. Underrated in terms of technical ability. Very tactically aware player, imagine where Liverpool would be if he didn't cover for TAA again and again. Again, not De Bruyne, but an integral player in a top class side that has won the PL and CL and gotten close other times... Would do well in many teams if he left Liverpool.
And mediocre players don't get carried in great sides. They get exposed and punished brutally. Think of someone like Lovren, or Mendy at City.
I've had this for years! I'm lobbying for the mods to tag more teams in...No need for heat maps, I get what you mean.
Nice new tag line btw
Again, if you didn't watch the games it's easy to look at minutes and make an assumption about a player's contribution to a season. If you watched the games or had more context...
Stop this pretentious wankery, man. There’s 38 matches in a PL season. He never played more than half of them at Manchester City.
Is Zinchenko a very versatile player, who plays two separate roles to a decent enough standard? Yes, probably more so considering Arteta will play him in a btec version of Pep’s system.
Was Zinchenko ever a particularly important player to City’s PL wins? No, he was never anything more than rotational and his lack of playtime shows that.
Arsenal really trying to be some sort of City tribute act. Arteta happy to take any of their cast-offs for inflated fees.
Funny how their fans are treating these signings as if they've prized prime Aguero or Kompany from them. Have to admire the optimism/delusion.
Funny how their fans are treating these signings as if they've prized prime Aguero or Kompany from them. Have to admire the optimism/delusion.
Looks like they are backing him to the hilt, these are all his signings.
Players from the fringes of City's squad though. Then again finishing 4th and getting CL football would be like a treble season for them. It's been about 7 years.
Quote my posts where I've called Zinchenko, O'Shea or Henderson shit. Feel free to. You'll struggle because they don't exist.
O'Shea was a good player, did a very good job for us because Ferguson built him up and almost always got the best out of players like him. Don't kid yourself thinking that O'Shea or Henderson could do the same under lesser managers in worst systems. Nobody is calling any of them shit. Henderson has been very good at times because he's playing under one of the worlds best managers. Zinchenko isn't shit. For me he looks like a middle of the road player that can do a solid job and that's where it ends. He's been elevated by a great manager in a great system at times. Going to play under a very average manager in a very average system IMO will highlight that he's not great and is just a decent, solid little player. There's nothing wrong with that at all for the record. My point all along is that Arsenal should be aiming for much more than that.
I find amusing everyone praising Citys squad. A squad that helped win them all the domestic trophies a few years ago, and can get them deep in Champions League while still winning titles. A billion pound squad with 2 full XI that would get into most other clubs first teams. All things said numerous times over the years.
Arsenal buy a couple of the squad players, suddenly they range from shite to distinctly average.
Arsenal buy a couple of the squad players, suddenly they range from shite to distinctly average.
How is a good player not quality?
Is the quality tag reserved for WC players? If not, I submit that O'Shea and Henderson and Zinchenko were/are quality players with proven track records. I don't know about you but all of Klopp's sorcery couldn't make me a serviceable midfielder for Liverpool.
That's where the money is. Don't think any other major European club wants to spend 50+ million for City rejects (30+ for Zinchenko).
Neither is a player which City have tried to actively keep or pay the amount of salaries their new contracts would require. Before they go the free transfer way, City have recouped ~125 million from them. Phenomenal business in my opinion. If they can get a couple of quality replacements in, they would've freshened up the squad, without really altering or drastically changing their starting XI. This was a hallmark of the Fergie's multiple title winning sides.
If I may ask you and other Arsenal fans on here, what is the strategy with Zinchenko? Surely he can't be a Tierney replacement who looks class every time I've seen him. Is the plan to play him as an LWB in a 3/5 at the back system? I'm sure Arsenal wouldn't have signed him had they got Lisandro, but they're also completely different type of players. What's the plan here?I find amusing everyone praising Citys squad. A squad that helped win them all the domestic trophies a few years ago, and can get them deep in Champions League while still winning titles. A billion pound squad with 2 full XI that would get into most other clubs first teams. All things said numerous times over the years.
Arsenal buy a couple of the squad players, suddenly they range from shite to distinctly average.
I think he's probably best in a three as the left sided midfielder. Especially when you have a LB like Tierney who likes to be offensive. He can drop back in covering positions for him and play box-to-box in that respect.
A team of Ramsdale - Tomiyasu - Gabriel - Saliba - Tierney - Zinchenko - Odegaard - Partey - Martinelli - Jesus - Saka would be pretty impressive.