Agreed.
Ole's regression in instilling big game mentality
- Thread starter VP89
- Start date
because beyond the hype we still don’t have the players to attack with total abandon or defend for our lives. He’s pragmatic no doubt about it but we are second. That’s an improvement.
Hopefully the club get the finger out and actually help him this summer
If he's still got hang-ups about a game that happened in fecking October, then maybe he hasn't got the mentality to make it in a top job like this.
Games like today are painful to watch. Our general passing is pretty poor, but we are too reactive and we concede too much of the ball. It's too slanted towards counter-attacking, but we couldn't even make the most out of that and blew a huge chance towards the end of the game with that strategy. It's too muddled, it's too slow, it's too passive and, quite often, Ole is too late to make changes to alter the direction of a game. This was a winnable game, in my opinion. It's not a coincidence that this has happened several times over this season, and Ole has (unfortunately) done little to change it.
Just like Mourinho used to. Progress.
This
Nothing wrong with our setup today. We lacked quality though. How can we dominate/control a football match against a top team with Fred and McTominay in midfield? The setup was positive. Our full backs were pushed right up the pitch. However, when we got the ball in areas we could do something, we couldn’t string two passes together. Can’t keep momentum when in the first half Bruno kept passing it straight out of play when trying to complete a 5 yard pass. Scott doing the same.
What today showed is that we are only good enough to win big games (and even a lot of other games) by ceding possession. The midfield quality just isn’t there. And I’d include Bruno in that - despite his phenomenal goal contributions. But the ability to control possession and sustain attacks is lacking throughout the squad, and has feck all to do with how the manager sets us up. The midfielders are midtable quality in between both boxes. Bruno is top class in the final third, Fred is very good in the defensive phase , McTominay is alright at both - but generally speaking - in the middle phase of the team, the quality is not there, which cannot be masked over 38 games.
What today showed is that we are only good enough to win big games (and even a lot of other games) by ceding possession. The midfield quality just isn’t there. And I’d include Bruno in that - despite his phenomenal goal contributions. But the ability to control possession and sustain attacks is lacking throughout the squad, and has feck all to do with how the manager sets us up. The midfielders are midtable quality in between both boxes. Bruno is top class in the final third, Fred is very good in the defensive phase , McTominay is alright at both - but generally speaking - in the middle phase of the team, the quality is not there, which cannot be masked over 38 games.
Biggest issues we need to resolve for next season are bringing in either one incredible midfield dynamo who can do the job of McFred combined, ore more realistically bring in a superb quick top centre back.
Either of those take away the massive issue of no pace at the centre, and thus needing 2 non creative hard working mids in front of them.
On top of that we need a top class forward. Goodness knows if that's a right sided Sancho, or a top class "proper" Cavani style centre forward in the 24-28 range though.
Either of those take away the massive issue of no pace at the centre, and thus needing 2 non creative hard working mids in front of them.
On top of that we need a top class forward. Goodness knows if that's a right sided Sancho, or a top class "proper" Cavani style centre forward in the 24-28 range though.
He's stop 4 manager, doing okay to take perhaps the second best squad to second place in the league and lose the league to city or any other next level team which emerges, with 20 points + gap.
Watching, it looks like we now set up in these games ultra pragmatic always worrying about how the opposition will hurt us rather than how we can hurt the opposition. So yes, effectively the definition being ultra passive. It’s amazing how it’s turned on its head from Ole’s early tenure when we seemed to be a bit more loose and have a go at the better teams, maybe because expectations were lower back then.
We got second with Mourinho too, with more points. We could easily have been third today if it wasn't for Arse beating Leicester at home. And if we lose to City next week probably will be third.
I’m sure if Ole had better players we would look better and approach the game differently.
Its Margins really, If that’s Grealish whipping that ball in at the end instead of Mctominay on that counter attack then I think we win.
It’s Important we don’t concede possession in every big game and play on the counter for unpredictability and for our mentality, we have to believe we can mix it with different types of football, next year I really feel with the right signings this will really improve.
Its Margins really, If that’s Grealish whipping that ball in at the end instead of Mctominay on that counter attack then I think we win.
It’s Important we don’t concede possession in every big game and play on the counter for unpredictability and for our mentality, we have to believe we can mix it with different types of football, next year I really feel with the right signings this will really improve.
But.. our record against the top six was way better last season and his first few months, so how can we not have the goods?
Funny how when we were good against the big teams it was "See, Ole's a much better manager than people give credit for" but when we do poor against them it's "Well it's not Ole's fault he doesn't have the players". Load of shite. You don't have a record that bad without there being something wrong other than the players especially when we are literally 2nd in the league right now. It doesn't add up!
I just think there was a distinct lack of quality in this game, as opposed to us "not going for it"
For a lot of the first half, I thought we were the better team. We had a spell in the second half, too, but I would say Chelsea shaded that half overall. This game wasn't a case of poor tactics, necessarily, and more a case of our players being piss poor on the ball. And we know how it goes, if Bruno isn't on his game we're going to struggle big time. Obviously our overall record and play in the big games is very poor and needs to be looked at.
For a lot of the first half, I thought we were the better team. We had a spell in the second half, too, but I would say Chelsea shaded that half overall. This game wasn't a case of poor tactics, necessarily, and more a case of our players being piss poor on the ball. And we know how it goes, if Bruno isn't on his game we're going to struggle big time. Obviously our overall record and play in the big games is very poor and needs to be looked at.
Nothing wrong with a defend and counter approach, it suits most of his players, plus they did press high a fair bit. He could be more proactive with subs though for sure. It'll be interesting to see - if/when he ever has a group he fully trusts - if this will always be the approach in big games or at some point he'll look to dominate
The tactics are shit though - that is my point.
We aren't a side that can only soak and counter - we're capable of a lot better than that. The first 45 minutes today demonstrated this, but Ole refuses to actually have us play this way against top sides with the exception to half a game today.
I know but look at the investment in the squad since Jose/Lukaku/Zlatan etc left us. It’s not enough. Jose’s team needed an overhaul and we’ve since brought in maguire james and awb as starters and Telles and VDB as rotation. Is that enough investment or organisational drive to really kick on and win the league? It isn’t and it was never going to be. We are still second for half the season. Just enjoy it and hope the club wake up this summer
It's the next step in the evolution of this team for me, and one that absolutely is something I think Ole and co. will want to rectify. Just watching the post match interview will show you that.
Not good enough is one way to look at it, and that is absolutely the case. Another way to look at it is that we just needed one break, or a moment of quality to win those games.
McTominay and Fred as a duo in midfield is a big reason for me. They bring great energy, but don't control the game enough. We need to improve out dynamism in midfield, and find that balance of defensive stability, but more attacking dominance.
City do it brilliantly, and most top teams these days prefer to defend by controlling the ball and possession. We're still lacking in that department.
Not good enough is one way to look at it, and that is absolutely the case. Another way to look at it is that we just needed one break, or a moment of quality to win those games.
McTominay and Fred as a duo in midfield is a big reason for me. They bring great energy, but don't control the game enough. We need to improve out dynamism in midfield, and find that balance of defensive stability, but more attacking dominance.
City do it brilliantly, and most top teams these days prefer to defend by controlling the ball and possession. We're still lacking in that department.
Its clear the 6-1 defeat against Spurs left a deep scar in Ole. He is scared to death in every top game ever since.
As a consistent 'Ole out at end of season' person, I don't see much wrong with how he set us up today. Individual performances were poor and the team looks like a bunch of strangers, which may or may not be on him, but the setup was enough to win the game.
As for not being given money to spend that's a trash excuse for him.
As for not being given money to spend that's a trash excuse for him.
Scored 2 vs Leicester
I'm more concerned about our ties and losses to lower clubs than coming away from the Bridge with 1 point. Especially when we were probably slightly the better team and should have won...
OP mentions traditional top 6.
Well relatively speaking we're fine against lower teams, which is why we are 2nd in the league. If we had a more concerning record against teams lower down than what we currently have vs the traditional top 6 sides - we'd be relegated.
I dont think its regression, teams dont attack us lile they did last year. Sone of our most defensive opponents have cone from the big teams.
The good thing is that we dont seem to lose when we come up against it so its a matter of adjusting our attacking style or just get that 1 player who will help us punish those tactics.
The good thing is that we dont seem to lose when we come up against it so its a matter of adjusting our attacking style or just get that 1 player who will help us punish those tactics.
Ah that's a good point, that's a much bigger game than Arsenal or Tottenham this season.
Although I feel like the fact we played Arsenal on reputation, twice, when they were there to be beaten is a relevant negative against Ole.
Half of those are mid table clubs now. I actually think the story lies in not being able to beat the best sides but the middling sides who set out to be compact against us.
You're right but then again it's not really fair tbh. Traditional big 6 doesn't mean anything anymore
Spurs and Liverpool weren't mid table when they played us, and Chelsea would have only been 3 points behind us if they'd won today.
Great tradition going on with Arsenal. How long do we want to go back? Do Leeds count as a traditional big side?
Leicester won the league 4 years ago while Arsenal haven’t won it since 2004, but well, at least they are a traditional big side.
But then what about City? How can both Arsenal and City be part of a traditional top 6 at the same time?
Leicester won the league 4 years ago while Arsenal haven’t won it since 2004, but well, at least they are a traditional big side.
But then what about City? How can both Arsenal and City be part of a traditional top 6 at the same time?
Well my point eludes more to mentality - and whilst fixture wise Leicester may have been a bigger tie, you can only point to Arsenal as one that was weaker in terms of table implications. When we under performed vs City/Chelsea/Spurs/Liverpool - they were all in top 4. And then you have the semi final chokes on top to factor in. It's a poor record.
That was the 3rd game of the season, there was no mid table then!
Theyre currently 8th, 9th if Villa win their game in hand. Thats mid table.
And Chelsea didnt win. We get the pen that we deserved and its 9 points clear.
Teams have to win to get points. Hell we beat the 2 sides between them and us anyway.
I mean if you want, take Arsenal out and throw Leicester in - I don't really care. It doesn't mean the point disappears - we didn't even beat Leicester
OK we scored 2 goals vs them - brilliant stuff. But we surrendered the lead, we failed to get the win against a beatable yet good side. And we've also failed to beat all the rest + Arsenal on top whilst also having poor records in latter stages of cups, which points to an issue with our mentality in the bigger fixtures. The point still stands.
Yet last year the only team with a better record than us vs the top 6 was Liverpool. I find it hard to blame Ole when McTominay screws up and easy pass to send in James and Bruno screws up an easy pass to send in Rashford. Never mind the non-penalty call that made absolutely no sense...
We set up well today, played aggressive and pressed high, and could've/should've been rewarded for it.
A major issue for this game is the lack of depth in the attacking positions. We simply didn't have any players that could make the difference.
A major issue for this game is the lack of depth in the attacking positions. We simply didn't have any players that could make the difference.
But it was a big game, which honestly is my point. If you're arguing Chelsea vs Man Utd today wasn't a big game then I can't help you. I see this as a big game against one of the top sides, and we underperformed for large portions and fell short. We come short against big sides a lot more than we should this season.
As I said - it was probably fine to get a draw in isolation as it prevents Chelsea from just being 3 off us, but when you add all the games together you see a worrying trend of a passive outlook, which isn't building toward the mentality we need.
Read my OP - I've addressed why I believe it worked last year. And you can blame personnel all you want, the best chance of today's game still came from a Ziyech sitter which DDG bailed us out of. And we were tested more again, with Mounts run and McT's last ditch tackle, with Girouds inch miss of a header, with Lindelof's great clearance from Werner at the back post, etc.
Well yeah we haven’t been good in big games. But choosing Arsenal (instead of Leicester or even Everton who are having a better season than Arsenal) is just cherry picking.I mean if you want, take Arsenal out and throw Leicester in - I don't really care. It doesn't mean the point disappears - we didn't even beat Leicester
OK we scored 2 goals vs them - brilliant stuff. But we surrendered the lead, we failed to get the win against a beatable yet good side. And we've also failed to beat all the rest + Arsenal on top whilst also having poor records in latter stages of cups, which points to an issue with our mentality in the bigger fixtures. The point still stands.
It's not because I mentioned traditional top sides. And I mentioned that because those matches have a big buildup and general added pressure to perform in. The concern in my OP is about our mentality when we face the bigger clubs not being right. Or the mentality coming across fragile on crunch periods like latter part of cup runs.
He has built a solidly top four team. A little bit of trust and more funds to complete his vision are needed.
He messed up against Sheffield United and West Brom and should have pushed for the win at Anfield with Liverpool so poor.
I don’t think this is the right result/approach for this thread though.
The title is long gone (and never really was a realistic goal). A win would have been great today, but in the position we are in, it was most definitely more important not to lose today and keeping that 6 point gap open.
There will be other fixtures where we can expect to try to open it up, but today was all about not letting them close it to 3 points. Job done.
I don’t think this is the right result/approach for this thread though.
The title is long gone (and never really was a realistic goal). A win would have been great today, but in the position we are in, it was most definitely more important not to lose today and keeping that 6 point gap open.
There will be other fixtures where we can expect to try to open it up, but today was all about not letting them close it to 3 points. Job done.