Only Fools and Horses Quarterfinal - 영명한 동지 vs. JB²

[Invictus]

harms.........................................................................................................................................Jim & Joga

...............VS................

Team harms

Formation: a 3-5-2 with a number 10.
Links: Bruno-Rashford (United), Greig, Murdoch & Law (Scotland)

Spoiler: player peaks

Pat Jennings. 1973-1976. FWA Footballer of the Year 1972/73; PFA Player’s Player of the Year 1975/76; PFA First Division Team of the Year 1973/74, 1975/76; Ballon d’Or: 23th (1973), 27th (1975).

Bobby Moore. 1967-1970. Ballon d’Or: 2nd (1970), 22th (1968); World Soccer World XI 1968, 1969; UEFA Euro TotT 1968; West Ham Player of the Year: 1968, 1970.

Albert Shesternyov. 1967-1970. Ballon d’Or: 10th (1970), 11th (1969), 14th (1968); Soviet Footballer of the Year (1970, 3rd place – 1968, 1969); UEFA Euro TotT 1968.

Paul McGrath. 1987-1990. FAI International Player of the Year 1990

Cafu. 2000-2003. World Cup All-Star Team 2002; ESPN Team of the Decade 00's; Sports Illustrated Team of the Decade 00's

John Greig. 1966-1969. Scottish Player of the Year 1965/66.

Bobby Murdoch. 1966-1969. Scottish Player of the Year 1968/69 // European Cup 1966/67.

Zé Roberto. 2001-2004. Bundesliga Team of the Season 2001/02; kicker International class (2), In the wider circle (2)

Bruno Fernandes. 2017-2020. Primera Liga Player of the Year 2017/18, 18/19; Europa League TotT 2017/18; 19/20; Europa League Top Scorer 2019/20; Nations League Finals TotT 2019; Premier League Player of the Month Feb, June 2020; Sporting Footballer of the Year 2017/18, 18/19; Sir Matt Busby Player of the Year 2019/20

Marcus Rashford. 2017-2020. Premier League Player of the Month Jan 2019; Europa League TotT 2019/20.

Denis Law. 1962-1965. Ballon d’Or 1st (1964), 4th (1963), 11th (1962, 1965) // First Division 1964/65

I'm very happy with my back three and it couldn't be better considering the pool. Bobby Moore as a LCB may look a bit unorthodox for some, but in both 1966 and 1970 World Cups he often covered that inside/outside left area, with the game against Brazil being the best example – in that game he had faced Jairzinho more than he did Pelé, Tostão and Rivelino combined (and with great success). Paul McGrath has experience of playing in every role in defense and in midfield (Big Ron famously said that he can perform at any position and Fergie once said that McGrath was the most talented footballer he had ever worked with – that was in the early 90's though). Albert Shesternyov plays as a sweeper – a role that he personally preferred, be it in a pure interpretation of the role or in a hybrid version.

Both Cafu and Zé Roberto had combined the true spirit of Joga Bonito with insane work-rate and top-notch professional mentality – and I don't need to remind you that those qualities rarely go together. I couldn't be happier with the pair, really – Cafu is literally the best there ever was and Zé Roberto deserves some love for his achievements, I feel that he is rarely picked (probably because no one is sure where exactly to fit him).

In the engine room I have John Greig and Bobby Murdoch. Once is the greatest ever Ranger, the other one was hailed as the best and most important player of the Lisbon Lions. Now those two forget past issues and play together (like they did for Scotland on numerous occasions). Greig performs in a more conservative defensive role in his unique fashion – filling in the gaps in his own defense & calmly and efficiently moving the ball forward when required. Murdoch is the main orchestrator of this team – although, like Greig, he does provide a lot of defensive solidity in the middle.

Up front we have the new and improved United Trinity™. Bruno fits this team nicely and you can't deny his contributions over the past few seasons – especially since we've all saw how seamlessly he had dealt with the transition to a superior league. He's not an all-time great 10, but he is currently a world-class player and a brilliant fit to this set up. Rashford starts his third game in a row – I figured that for this formation he'd be a better fit than Igor Chislenko. His career is only at its very beginning but he had already recommended himself as the man for a big occasion – plus you have a proven link to Bruno and you can't find a better partner for a striker of his profile than Denis Law himself.

The King is, of course, the best player of my attacking trio and, next to Charlton, Rivaldo and Moore, a fair shout for the best player on the pitch as well. Funnily enough, my opponent would probably be the one who'd be able to write the most complete and coherent profile on him.




Team Joga Bonito & Jim Beam

Tactics: good ol' boring 4-2-3-1

Defense: While not being the shiniest pair you've ever seen in a draft, Hyypiä and Walker form a pretty complimentary partnership with one of them being a very good organizer and leader in that excellent back four of Rafael Benitez and the other one being a great man marker and one of the fastest defender ever. Fullbacks, which are one of the most important aspects of this formation, go by the name of legendary Jimmy Armfield and great Giacinto Facchetti.


Midfield: The defense is shielded with Xabi Alonso and an all-time great Roy Keane. Both capable of providing necessary cover and at the same time being able to link the whole team. Xabi will play a more reserved role as a DM while Roy Keane a more expansive one with a license to march forward when space opens up or being in his favorite box to box role. At number 10 we will have our answer against Ole almighty Bruno Fernandes in the United and England greatest ever player, Bobby Charlton. He was the first pick and the idea was always to allow Charlton to fully shine in every sense. With that in mind, every pick and formation was made. Here again, he has the perfect platform to do that and show all of his qualities in both phases of the game.



Attack: On one wing there is a great Rivaldo, linking and interchanging with Charlton while opening the space for Facchetti to come in and on the other wing is Mason Greenwood who will play a bit further from that duo always ready to pull the trigger when the opposing defense is stretched. The whole attack rounds with great Enzo Francescoli. The worst kind of attacker who will work your defense for the full 90 minutes and more. With Enzo the defense knew he will just keep going at them and that they will have to earn their paycheck on the day. The trick with Enzo is even if you somehow managed to stop him, he would often occupy both defenders opening the space for others.

Unfortunately for Enzo, his teammates often didn't have the quality to take the advantage of it, unfortunately for harms, there are Charlton and Rivaldo behind Enzo here.


Good luck @harms @Jim Beam @Joga Bonito!

 

[Himannv]

Questions to both:

How does your team operate tactically?
How do you see this game playing out?

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I can understand the thinking behind the back 3 of harms, but it doesn't feel natural. I'm very sceptical on force slotting big names where they haven't played before...but considering the nature of opponent's attack, this should be fine.

Nothing much to comment on JB2's team as it's tactically good and players fit the roles seamlessly...but the CB duo is very underwhelming.

Edging towards harms for now. Will wait for more discussions.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Also harms...any information on Grieg? From what I can see, should be not be the LCB with McGrath occupying the midfield?

 

[harms]

It's a very good team with simply amazing midfield by JB2, but I feel like I have an advantage here. I'm playing in a counter-attacking set-up and my defense is almost impenetrable – Moore is simply one of the greatest center backs of all-time and Shesternyov & McGrath are on another level individually to any of JB2's center backs. My keeper is also better (not drastically though), and the wingbacks are comparable – 1 GOAT and 1 great player in their respective roles.

My midfield and attack may look slightly less shiny, but it's a perfect fit for my counter-attacking set up. John Greig is a fantastic defensive midfielder who has everything that you want from such a player – defensive nous, experience in all of midfield & defensive roles, ball-playing skills and incredible tactical intelligence. You don't become the greatest Ranger for nothing. Bobby Murdoch is another underrated great, but he was one of the greatest midfielders of the 60's, regularly showcasing his class on the highest level – take his MotM performance in the 1967 European Cup, for example (with an injury limiting him to playing only with one foot). Jock Stein said that Murdoch was the best player he had ever manager – again, no small feat.

Here's another one of Murdoch's MotM performances again West Germany with peak Beckenbauer, Overath & Müller on the pitch:

Bruno & Rashford are obviously relatively unproven, but we know how good they can be in an open game with space in front of them – and this is exactly the kind of a set up that will bring out the best of them. Denis Law is the best player on the pitch alongside Charlton for me (sorry Rivaldo), the more I watch him play, the more I am in awe of him and his game. He has a reputation of a prolific goalscorer – but he actually played a lot like his hero Di Stefano, roaming all over the pitch, defending, playmaking (and, of course, scoring).

And if we're going by 3-year peaks, I think that despite how good Greenwood had looked for us, he has to be regarded as the worst attacker on the pitch by some distance. I mean, he has barely played for us this season (for a bunch of reasons) and only played for what, half a season as a regular before that? Compared to him, Rashford already has more than 200 appearances for United with 75 goals (and a habit of elevating his game on big occasions) as well as being a seasoned international. Bruno has performed both domestically and in Europe for years now, twice winning Primera Player of the Year and taking the Premier League by storm. I mean, I don't need to big up Bruno here, do I? Just take a look back to past Tuesday.

 

[harms]

I can understand the thinking behind the back 3 of harms, but it doesn't feel natural. I'm very sceptical on force slotting big names where they haven't played before...but considering the nature of opponent's attack, this should be fine.

Nothing much to comment on JB2's team as it's tactically good and players fit the roles seamlessly...but the CB duo is very underwhelming.

Edging towards harms for now. Will wait for more discussions.

This was the plan all along. I always wanted to use Moore in a three – and specifically on the left of a back three. He was always great at covering that left side as well as making passes/progressive runs down that side with his best game being the 1970 encounter against Brazil. Look how often he faces Jairzinho here.

Shesternyov is probably at his best role as a pure sweeper – I've linked up his performance from the same 1970 World Cup against Belgium (with van Himst & van Moer) as a sweeper behind a back 4.

McGrath regularly played as a side back and, really, he could've played anywhere along the backline. He was great in midfield as well, but I don't think that this is his best position. This is the answer for your Greig suggestion as well – Greig's best position is a defensive midfielder, McGrath's best position is a center back, it's that simple.

Also harms...any information on Grieg? From what I can see, should be not be the LCB with McGrath occupying the midfield?

I'll link @Gio 's profile on him from the last thread. During the 60's (I went down the rabbithole of watching tons of Scottish football from the 60's and 70's lately) he usually played in defensive midfield. Even when he played as a center back he would often move forward in kind of a proactive role. It's his tactical adaptability throughout the game that I was impressed by the most – he would always appear where he was needed the most, even though some of those moves were quite unorthodox (especially for the 60's).

Something that I wanted to highlight from that profile since it will spoiler most of the message:

• First choice for Scotland in 43 of 46 internationals between 1964-1971. Bear in mind the competition - Billy Bremner, Dave Mackay, Jim Baxter, Bobby Muroch, Bertie Auld, Pat Crerand, Pat Stanton -- yet Greig outcapped them all by some distance. Fairly safe to say he was the finest right-half / defensive midfielder of the second half of the 1960s in Britain.
• Scottish Player of the Year in 1965-66 (right-half)

STATURE

• Voted Rangers' Greatest Ever Player. 768 appearances and our most consistent player whilst Celtic romped to 9 in a row and the European Cup. Was part of the great Rangers team of the early 1960s, going close to winning the 1967 ECWC - losing to Bayern in Germany in the final - winning it in 1972, then finally knocking Celtic off their perch and winning 2 more trebles in the second half of the 1970s. Not out best player - Baxter, Laudrup and Gascoigne just had more class - but our greatest club man and stalwart for so long.
• Greig was the figurehead for Rangers when the Ibrox disaster took place in 1971, when 66 lost their lives at the end of the New Year Old Firm derby. Like Dalglish with Hillsborough, he became the club's reference point in responding to the disaster and the emotional ballast for the support.
• Worth highlighting the 1971/72 European Cup Winners Cup win included dispatching Bayern in the semi-final, who were pretty much in peak form by that point as we saw at Euro 72 and about to dominate the European Cup. IIRC Greig played the away leg in CM but was injured for the home leg.
• First choice for Scotland in 43 of 46 internationals between 1964-1971. Bear in mind the competition - Billy Bremner, Dave Mackay, Jim Baxter, Bobby Muroch, Bertie Auld, Pat Crerand, Pat Stanton -- yet Greig outcapped them all by some distance. Fairly safe to say he was the finest right-half / defensive midfielder of the second half of the 1960s in Britain.
• Scottish Player of the Year in 1965-66 (right-half) and 1975-76 (left-back).

POSITION

First and foremost a central midfielder. His position was right-half. He was versatile - started his career at inside-right before moving to right-half, then filled in at central defence on occasion thereafter. He had the nous and understanding of the game to drop into roles without missing a beat. His move to left-back in the 1970s was mostly because he was our best player in that position and there wasn't a great deal of alternatives. Still played admirably there, using his engine to get up and down the park and his midfield instincts to give-and-go, underlapping into the inside-left channels.


That's at 36.

STYLE

Like the majority of defensively responsible midfielders, most of his strengths were off the ball - reading the game, intercepting the ball, winning it, passing and supporting. Some of the footage I've watched, and the 1972 final v Dynamo Moscow an obvious example, he's often responsible for 'taking out the opposition's best player' - you'll remember him binning their star man after about 5 seconds, which was an instruction from the manager and permitted within the laxer refereeing of the time. You couldn't play in that era without having that side to your game, especially in the heart of midfield. Just on that Moscow game he was carrying a stress fracture in his foot towards the end of the 1971/72 season and I think only played the final with an injection, so his movement was much more limited than normal. But like Keane he was hugely influential on his teammates through his attitude and leadership on the park.

All of that said, he was a tidy player. Firstly a heavy goalscorer given his defensive responsibilities - scoring 120 goals during his career - and impressively belted a few in from long range.


And secondly to make another Keane comparison, from what I've seen his passing was pretty good - he could punch it into a forward's feet through the lines from 25 yards away, and he could carry the ball, play an accurate one-two and take it into his stride. A couple of good examples of his passing range off either foot away to Bayern here.


That gave him that vertical threat as well as being defensively solid in deeper areas. Good example would be his late winner v Italy in 1965.

 

[Himannv]

It's a very good team with simply amazing midfield by JB2, but I feel like I have an advantage here. I'm playing in a counter-attacking set-up and my defense is almost impenetrable – Moore is simply one of the greatest center backs of all-time and Shesternyov & McGrath are on another level individually to any of JB2's center backs. My keeper is also better (not drastically though), and the wingbacks are comparable – 1 GOAT and 1 great player in their respective roles.

My midfield and attack may look slightly less shiny, but it's a perfect fit for my counter-attacking set up. John Greig is a fantastic defensive midfielder who has everything that you want from such a player – defensive nous, experience in all of midfield & defensive roles, ball-playing skills and incredible tactical intelligence. You don't become the greatest Ranger for nothing. Bobby Murdoch is another underrated great, but he was one of the greatest midfielders of the 60's, regularly showcasing his class on the highest level – take his MotM performance in the 1967 European Cup, for example (with an injury limiting him to playing only with one foot). Jock Stein said that Murdoch was the best player he had ever manager – again, no small feat.

Here's another one of Murdoch's MotM performances again West Germany with peak Beckenbauer, Overath & Müller on the pitch:

Bruno & Rashford are obviously relatively unproven, but we know how good they can be in an open game with space in front of them – and this is exactly the kind of a set up that will bring out the best of them. Denis Law is the best player on the pitch alongside Charlton for me (sorry Rivaldo), the more I watch him play, the more I am in awe of him and his game. He has a reputation of a prolific goalscorer – but he actually played a lot like his hero Di Stefano, roaming all over the pitch, defending, playmaking (and, of course, scoring).

And if we're going by 3-year peaks, I think that despite how good Greenwood had looked for us, he has to be regarded as the worst attacker on the pitch by some distance. I mean, he has barely played for us this season (for a bunch of reasons) and only played for what, half a season as a regular before that? Compared to him, Rashford already has more than 200 appearances for United with 75 goals (and a habit of elevating his game on big occasions) as well as being a seasoned international. Bruno has performed both domestically and in Europe for years now, twice winning Primera Player of the Year and taking the Premier League by storm. I mean, I don't need to big up Bruno here, do I? Just take a look back to past Tuesday.

Good stuff. So when you say counter-attacking football, are we talking about a low block in the defensive phase? How does your team press? Are you planning on zonal defense?

I guess you reckon they'll have more possession. If you were to have the ball though, how does your side approach the game then in an attacking phase? I mean, your CBs are all quite good with the ball (although they're obviously not Beckenbauer level creative or anything) - do you have some sort of plan to utilize this?

Is there a real-life setup that is similar to what you've done here?

Awaiting JB2's posts on tactics as well.

 

[harms]

Good stuff. So when you say counter-attacking football, are we talking about a low block in the defensive phase? How does your team press? Are you planning on zonal defense?

I guess you reckon they'll have more possession. If you were to have the ball though, how does your side approach the game then in an attacking phase? I mean, your CBs are all quite good with the ball (although they're obviously not Beckenbauer level creative or anything) - do you have some sort of plan to utilize this?

Is there a real-life setup that is similar to what you've done here?

Awaiting JB2's posts on tactics as well.

Nothing too radical but they're clearly having more of the ball and my defense is going to sit deeper in the defensive phase (especially Shesternyov). Shesternyov and McGrath are absolutely rapid though, which will help with the transition from the attacking phase to the defensive one.

Having 3 center backs as well as a great cover like Greig next to them obviously gives them some advantage in terms of ball-playing responsibilities. Greig also has this unique quality of covering either side back role depending on the situation, which allows more freedom to my wing backs in attack.

In the attacking phase it's quite clear – Ze and Cafu are stretching the pitch, Rashford, Law and Bruno are in a full-on attack mode (interchanging & playing one-twos), Murdoch is further ahead, Greig & the back three are pushing up a bit.

 

[Jim Beam]

For some reason didn't get the notification and wasn't aware it started. No complaints at all, just wasn't happened before. You know when you occasionally check did the game start every half an hour or so. That was me for the last 5 hours.

Anyway, nothing groundbreaking really. Absolutely nothing to say that it is flawed in harms team and it is also great transformation from the first round. Especially like Ze Roberto role as I rate him as a player and he is really in his zone here. Good work on Murdoch and Greig too.

So, a bit in general, a bit just my thoughts (me talking to myself as always) and a bit on overall team dynamics as I see it.

First of all, when we picked Greenwood, I saw the criteria and first player that crossed my mind was Mason. Now, we didn't communicated it and Joga made the pick in the end without us agreeing. His pick was Greenwood. We are well aware that his credentials are weak and that he might cost us votes, but the idea was the same from the start. Don't ruin the build up around Charlton and stay in the same line of thinking that he has to be in the best possible position to put his mark on the game. And it stays the same here. So, in that sense we are absolutely ready to take anything under the chin regarding him. The fact is that team dynamics didn't take a hit and the boy is quite good for his age. How you will take him, up to you of course.

In that sense though, bigging up Rashford and Bruno as something extraordinary, no matter how good they are, is a stretch to say the least. Especially, considering that Bruno behaves a bit differently when he is in Portugal line up. But ok, let's even say you get the United version of him if that was the plan and he is pulling the strings. He is great, no doubt, but he is still pretty much end product player with a bit erratic passing. Let's just say I have some doubts considering that Law always wanted to be involved and was much "cleaner" player in the build up. On the other side, Walker is pretty much great fit for Rashford.
This is not so much of a criticism, just the general observation that in one team the heavy lifting is on Bruno to decide the game and in other on Charlton and that is quite a margin.
But, I was always in favor of more modern players in the draft and that their rating is extremely underrated, so no problem if people see it differently.

Two last thoughts, we don't plan to play some possession football and it is much more focused on a quick transition after taking the ball and playing high tempo game. I mean, every player here thrived in quick transition, Facchetti, Keane, Xabi Alonso (Benitez and Mourinho Madrid), Charlton, Francescoli, even Rivaldo in those Brazil teams. So, I even think we far more suited to counter or certainly be more efficient in our transition. In any way we can counter the shit out of each other by the look of things I guess.

Last thing, no complaints about back 3 personnel at all. Think they are all suited to play it. The thing is that I think Enzo is just a perfect player to play against the back 3. He will just pull them and drag them all over the place which is the worst thing when you are in such a defensive shape. Especially, when you have Charlton and Rivaldo sneaking from behind. Cafu being a bit further is also a small plus in my book.

All in all, naturally we see the game and how it will be played out differently.

Oh, good luck harms.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

We can't see who's voted for whom!

 

[Jim Beam]

We can't see who's voted for whom!

Oh well, that is rather unfortunate...

 

[Himannv]

Two very good sides and both playing counter-attacking football. A bit hard to vote in this game tbh. I'm going with harms and only just - I like his setup slightly more.

 

[harms]

I don’t know, in the end I just don’t believe that a Walker/Hyypiä’s duo can hold their own at this level. As for Rashford/Greenwood – it’s kind of fair... but then it’s 3 years peak. And today’s shenanigans also count (negatively) to Greenwood’s form. Who knows how he’ll develop in the coming years, even though we all hope for the best, so it’s not comparable to Bruno/Rashford, who both have more than 3 years of top performances behind their back.

 

[Physiocrat]

@harms I see the reasoning for Moore at LCB in that he liked that zone but it still doesn't site right. I would want my best passer in the sweeper position and have someone pacier at LCB. So I would have switched Shesternyov and Moore on that basis.

All that said given your description of Moore it seems that is ideal position (not role) would like Passarella, as an LCB in a back 4 next to a more defensive LB.

 

[harms]

@harms I see the reasoning for Moore at LCB in that he liked that zone but it still doesn't site right. I would want my best passer in the sweeper position and have someone pacier at LCB. So I would have switched Shesternyov and Moore on that basis.

All that said given your description of Moore it seems that is ideal position (not role) would like Passarella, as an LCB in a back 4 next to a more defensive LB.

I see where you coming from and it certainly would've been a more intuitive option but I wanted to try something different – especially since Moore is usually only used in back 4s and this is a fantasy draft

 

[Physiocrat]

I see where you coming from and it certainly would've been a more intuitive option but I wanted to try something different – especially since Moore is usually only used in back 4s and this is a fantasy draft

Fair enough

 

[Jim Beam]

I don’t know, in the end I just don’t believe that a Walker/Hyypiä’s duo can hold their own at this level. As for Rashford/Greenwood – it’s kind of fair... but then it’s 3 years peak. And today’s shenanigans also count (negatively) to Greenwood’s form. Who knows how he’ll develop in the coming years, even though we all hope for the best, so it’s not comparable to Bruno/Rashford, who both have more than 3 years of top performances behind their back.

Hyypia was CL winner with that buffon Jamie Carragher and leader of pretty great back defensive unit that Rafa made in that Liverpool. Those Chelsea battles (when Chelsea and Mourinho was at the peak of their powers tell their own story). They didn't let one of the best counter-attacking teams of this century a sniff in those matches. Before Carragher he won pretty much everything except EPL with an even bigger buffon in Stephane Henchoz. Walker again was a fantastic man marker and partnership is pretty complimentary. That is not even taking into account they were surrounded with Armfield, Giacinto Facchetti, Xabi and Roy Keane.

As I said, everyone sees it differently, but still I can't see how anyone can see both midfield and attacks despite Greenwood and say both of our units aren't level above. You also have the unfortunate that your best defender goes against a tactical cog in Mason Greenwood. You are also quite unfortunate that Shevchenko isn't playing to even those attacks. But, it is what it is.

In our view, it isn't unreasonable to say, that you would actually need a game of his lifetime from Denis Law to win this game. No more, no less.

 

[harms]

@harms I see the reasoning for Moore at LCB in that he liked that zone but it still doesn't site right. I would want my best passer in the sweeper position and have someone pacier at LCB. So I would have switched Shesternyov and Moore on that basis.

All that said given your description of Moore it seems that is ideal position (not role) would like Passarella, as an LCB in a back 4 next to a more defensive LB.

Look at his ball-playing contributions and tell me that he'd be better as a central defender in a 3-5-2.

This is not a usual libero 3-5-2 by the way. Shesternyov is more reserved & the beauty of having all three of Moore-Shesternyov-McGrath is that they can easily spare 1 one of them (to go on a foraging run) and still maintain defensive shape without any issues (plus the help of Greig).

 

[Jim Beam]

Already said he can play LCB without any problems, but I have zero doubts that he would be much better centrally and that you would play him centrally if it wasn't for Shesternyov who you absolutely have to play there.

And as I say, since there is so much talk about Greenwood, ironically LCB is the last place where you want Moore to be in this particular game. But you have to play him there to make the sense of the whole set up.

 

[harms]

Already said he can play LCB without any problems, but I have zero doubts that he would be much better centrally and that you would play him centrally if it wasn't for Shesternyov who you absolutely have to play there.

And as I say, since there is so much talk about Greenwood, ironically LCB is the last place where you want Moore to be in this particular game. But you have to play him there to make the sense of the whole set up.

You keep saying this like your attack is not supposed to be fluid and interchangeable?

 

[Jim Beam]

You keep saying this like your attack is not supposed to be fluid and interchangeable?

Of course it is, but we all know which zone or side is far more dangerous considering how they operated. In that sense, it doesn't change the fact that Moore defensively definitely isn't on the side you want him to be looking at this match up.

And in 4-2-3-1 managers often put AM and one of the wingers closer making them interchange more since it allows AM (in this case Charlton of all people) to break the line more easily while one of the wing forwards is pulled away more on the wing. They do that, especially if one of the wing forwards also has playmaking characteristics. In that sense, Rivaldo, Charlton are in perfect position to influence the match.

You can almost say Mason Greenwood is a Trojan horse in this particular game.

 

[harms]

Hyypia was CL winner with that buffon Jamie Carragher and leader of pretty great back defensive unit that Rafa made in that Liverpool. Those Chelsea battles (when Chelsea and Mourinho was at the peak of their powers tell their own story). They didn't let one of the best counter-attacking teams of this century a sniff in those matches.

Nah, generally I don't rate their CL win at all (it was a complete fluke) & Chelsea were never a true attacking force to recon with, their strength was in their defense. 2007/08 was better but Liverpool's strength, again, was in that midfield axis of Mascherano/Xabi/Gerrard, not in their defense per se.

 

[Jim Beam]

Nah, generally I don't rate their CL win at all (it was a complete fluke) & Chelsea were never a true attacking force to recon with, their strength was in their defense. 2007/08 was better but Liverpool's strength, again, was in that midfield axis of Mascherano/Xabi/Gerrard, not in their defense per se.

Good that we have the best part of that midfield then with the addition of Keane and Charlton. Their defensive solidity was excellent and a perfect example that it depends on overall team structure like it is the case here.

 

[harms]

Good that we have the best part of that midfield then with the addition of Keane and Charlton. Their defensive solidity was excellent and a perfect example that it depends on overall team structure like it is the case here.

Oh, that's definitely a bonus and the best part about your side. It's just in the end I'd still bet (obviously) on my attack breaking up your defense more frequently than yours breaking up mine. My midfield base is probably as solid as yours, but my defenders are on another level to yours to put it mildly.

I rate Enzo very highly, but we have enough men to cover his runs without breaking the system. And in any way either Charlton or Rivaldo has to beat multiple men to even get a shot at the goal (in which I have a better keeper).

 

[harms]

Hyypia was CL winner with that buffon Jamie Carragher and leader of pretty great back defensive unit that Rafa made in that Liverpool.

Just to reiterate the point – their performance in the final itself was horrendous, probably the worst defensive performance in history of CL finals?

 

[Jim Beam]

Oh, that's definitely a bonus and the best part about your side. It's just in the end I'd still bet (obviously) on my attack breaking up your defense more frequently than yours breaking up mine. My midfield base is probably as solid as yours, but my defenders are on another level to yours to put it mildly.

I rate Enzo very highly, but we have enough men to cover his runs without breaking the system. And in any way either Charlton or Rivaldo has to beat multiple men to even get a shot at the goal (in which I have a better keeper).

Don't agree about the midfield at all. I see it on another level in every sense. Obviously I feel that way, but I think it is a massive advantage.

The route to goal is quite obvious also, Charlton and Rivaldo don't have to beat multiple man to get a shot at goal. If anyone can absolutely butcher you from distance it is those two gentlemens. The keeper margin is so small I wouldn't even mention it personally.

 

[Synco]

Both very good teams, the new FB/WB duos are fantastic in both sides. Still a few questions left for me.

Imo, harms has a clear advantage regarding his top notch central defense, but he also has to play two below-par players in attack as opposed to JB's one. I'm not one for dismissing players like Bruno/Rashford as useless sheep, they may have a good game. But they're largely unproven at the level others have excelled at, and it's fair to rate them a good deal less (Greenwood even more so, tbf). All of this roughly evens out in my eyes.

As for Beamito, their CM is perfect in terms of quality and synergy, and despite the changed formation graphic I think it's the same setup as in the first match. Rivaldo should blend in well too. So far it's brilliant. But I still have to be convinced that Francescoli is the right player to top it off.

@Jim Beam @Joga Bonito
Do I imagine him correctly as a playmaking type of forward, falling back and influencing the game from deeper areas (as opposed to someone who primarily holds the line up top)?

 

[Jim Beam]

Just to reiterate the point – their performance in the final itself was horrendous, probably the worst defensive performance in history of CL finals?

I don't know, the other team defensively collapsed in such way that is all what is remembered about it.

On the way to the final (group and knockout stage) they conceded the same amount of goals as Maldini, Nesta, Stam, Cafu defence. Only 6 in 12 games.

 

[harms]

I forgot how funny Gerrard's dive was in 2005. Rewatching those final highlights is so surreal, how on Earth did they manage to win that?

 

[Jim Beam]

As for Beamito, their CM is perfect in terms of quality and synergy, and despite the changed formation graphic I think it's the same setup as in the first match. Rivaldo should blend in well too. So far it's brilliant. But I still have to be convinced that Francescoli is the right player to top it off.

@Jim Beam @Joga Bonito
Do I imagine him correctly as a playmaking type of forward, falling back and influencing the game from deeper areas (as opposed to someone who primarily holds the line up top)?

Ha, nice nickname!!

Will answer you in a short while, although you have small bits above on how I see Enzo functioning as a number 9 in this game.

 

[Jim Beam]

I forgot how funny Gerrard's dive was in 2005. Rewatching those final highlights is so surreal, how on Earth did they manage to win that?

I have no idea.

That Sheva miss in extra time too.

 

[harms]

Imo, harms has a clear advantage regarding his top notch central defense, but he also has to play two below-par players in attack as opposed to JB's one. I'm not one for dismissing players like Bruno/Rashford as useless sheep, they may have a good game. But they're largely unproven at the level others have excelled at, and it's fair to rate them a good deal less (Greenwood even more so, tbf). All of this roughly evens out in my eyes.

I'd argue that they're not completely unproven – and they're not comparable to Greenwood first and foremost in terms of the drafting logic. And then you look at the likes of Hyypiä and I struggle to think how his peak is more impressive than Bruno's, for example, or even Rashfords. Same is true for Walker, although I rate him a bit higher. So I'd certainly consider them in your equation.

Bruno Fernandes. 2017-2020. Primera Liga Player of the Year 2017/18, 18/19; Europa League TotT 2017/18; 19/20; Europa League Top Scorer 2019/20; Nations League Finals TotT 2019; Premier League Player of the Month Feb, June 2020; Sporting Footballer of the Year 2017/18, 18/19; Sir Matt Busby Player of the Year 2019/20

Rashford has less accolades, of course, but he has enough fantastic individual performances to compensate for that – and he's well known for doing it against big teams.

More so, we're talking about 3-year peaks here, and both Bruno and Rashford have one, while Greenwood's would consist mostly of his youth career (or of his absence from the squad this season).

P.S. Just o prove that I'm genuine – I've consciously left Chislenko on the bench, and you all know how high I rate him, and fielder Rashford ahead of him. And that's considering Chislenko's incredible individual record against Facchetti. Because if we look at 3-years peak, he can be here and he's not really a sheep (he's not better/as good as Enzo, but...).

 

[Synco]

Will answer you in a short while, although you have small bits above on how I see Enzo functioning as a number 9 in this game.

Cheers, Joga has also written a detailed reply in the last game.

Tbh, I think the setup is mostly clear. Me coming back to it is probably just an attempt to get my head around it as a whole. In short, I think with Charlton & Rivaldo covering practically every function in deeper and wider areas, a "true" CF might simply be the ideal complement. (Not meaning "static" there, to be clear.)

 

[Synco]

@harms
I tried to acknowlege pretty much everything you said in my post, if you look at it closely. Every single point really, including Greenwood.

But I think it's fair to not assume they just come in and *necessarily* boss it at the peak of their ability shown so far - the company here is Law, Rivaldo, Charlton, Shevchenko (if he wasn't injured), Francescoli, Cafu, Facchetti. Even though we're thankfully going by 3-year peak, not career average, there's simply a gap, and it has to have some effect.

Edit: That said, only you seem to have included peaks, if I haven't missed anything.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Interesting discussion so far.

 

[Jim Beam]

I'd argue that they're not completely unproven – and they're not comparable to Greenwood first and foremost in terms of the drafting logic. And then you look at the likes of Hyypiä and I struggle to think how his peak is more impressive than Bruno's, for example, or even Rashfords. Same is true for Walker, although I rate him a bit higher. So I'd certainly consider them in your equation.

Bruno Fernandes. 2017-2020. Primera Liga Player of the Year 2017/18, 18/19; Europa League TotT 2017/18; 19/20; Europa League Top Scorer 2019/20; Nations League Finals TotT 2019; Premier League Player of the Month Feb, June 2020; Sporting Footballer of the Year 2017/18, 18/19; Sir Matt Busby Player of the Year 2019/20

Rashford has less accolades, of course, but he has enough fantastic individual performances to compensate for that – and he's well known for doing it against big teams.

More so, we're talking about 3-year peaks here, and both Bruno and Rashford have one, while Greenwood's would consist mostly of his youth career (or of his absence from the squad this season).

P.S. Just o prove that I'm genuine – I've consciously left Chislenko on the bench, and you all know how high I rate him, and fielder Rashford ahead of him. And that's considering Chislenko's incredible individual record against Facchetti. Because if we look at 3-years peak, he can be here and he's not really a sheep (he's not better/as good as Enzo, but...).

I don't actually have problems with them individually so much. Obviously I rate them much lower then their counterparts on the other side. What I do see as an issue is that you fielded both of them in such a crucial attacking positions. For all their achievement we all hope at this point it is a start of something great further along, as taking all that in the account, the greatest run that both of them had was dragging us to top 4 last year (along with Martial) That is why I said our opinion is that Law should have a game of his life for you to win it.

You can say that your 2nd biggest attacking outlet is actually Cafu and he has his hands (or legs) full considering his flank.

Cheers, Joga has also written a detailed reply in the last game.

Tbh, I think the setup is mostly clear. Me coming back to it is probably just an attempt to get my head around it as a whole. In short, I think with Charlton & Rivaldo covering practically every function in deeper and wider areas, a "true" CF might simply be the ideal complement. (Not meaning "static" there, to be clear.)

Yeah, fair enough it would be just repeating tbf. As I said the reason why I personally see it working on a high level is a 3 man defence. To break it you need to have a forward who will pull them all over the place and out of position. Enzo can do that perfectly along with having a good hold up play and being excellent in transition.

 

[harms]

I don't actually have problems with them individually so much. Obviously I rate them much lower then their counterparts on the other side. What I do see as an issue is that you fielded both of them in such a crucial attacking positions. For all their achievement we all hope at this point it is a start of something great further along, as taking all that in the account, the greatest run that both of them had was dragging us to top 4 last year (along with Martial) That is why I said our opinion is that Law should have a game of his life for you to win it.

Yeah. And if they were facing Baresi and Ferdinand, it would've been a huge issue.

But I think it's fair to not assume they just come in and *necessarily* boss it at the peak of their ability shown so far - the company here is Law, Rivaldo, Charlton, Shevchenko (if he wasn't injured), Francescoli, Cafu, Facchetti. Even though we're thankfully going by 3-year peak, not career average, there's simply a gap, and it has to have some effect.

Again, the company is – for them, Walker and Hyypiä first and foremost, as those are the players that they're facing directly. Keane as well though, mind you. And those are the players that I wanted to highlight as well, as in your post there was an equation of 2 decent sheep vs 1 bad sheep, while in reality Bruno (especially) and Rashford are certainly not on a lower peak level than Hyypiä and Walker.

 

[Synco]

Yeah, fair enough it would be just repeating tbf. As I said the reason why I personally see it working on a high level is a 3 man defence. To break it you need to have a forward who will pull them all over the place and out of position. Enzo can do that perfectly along with having a good hold up play and being excellent in transition.

Absolutely. Maybe I can put it like this - the difference for me would be between a false 9 (not ideal, imo) and a mobile CF who combines the dropping & roaming business with "classic" traits. Can be different types, from Suarez to Van Basten/Lewandowski to Benzema.

Anyway, I'll shut up now & go by your version of things, unless @harms or anyone else picks up the issue.

 

[harms]

Absolutely. Maybe I can put it like this - the difference for me would be between a false 9 (not ideal, imo) and a mobile CF who combines the dropping & roaming business with "classic" traits. Can be different types, from Suarez to Van Basten/Lewandowski to Benzema.

Anyway, I'll shut up now & go by your version of things, unless@harms or anyone else picks up the issue.

I'm not fully agree with Enzo being the very best fit to accommodate both Rivaldo and Charlton to be honest – I would've chosen a proper number 9 as well. Enzo did famously perform the role of a space creator against Scotland and did it brilliantly, but I still prefer him to be the one exploiting the space – same with Rivaldo & Charlton.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Do I imagine him correctly as a playmaking type of forward, falling back and influencing the game from deeper areas (as opposed to someone who primarily holds the line up top)?

I'd day Enzo was always a #9.5 from what I've seen of him and the vids that I've made of him (mainly the 80s version, always more of a creative roaming forward as opposed to a #10 in the mould of a Laudrup). I reckon his 90s version must have obviously different.

Either way when he played up front, he wasn't really a pronounced false 9 or a pseudo centre forward but pretty much an excellent centre forward who had wily movement off the ball, deceptively dangerous aerial ability and most importantly was capable of 'working the oppositions defenders'.

“A player who gave the greatest individual performance I’ve ever seen. He played our entire back four on his own.”

Enzo Francescoli was magnificent for them, playing up front on his own with endless resourcefulness and composure.

I know I've posted this before but just in case if you didn't manage to give it a watch or for others.

Btw I completely agree with your sentiments, a false 9 or someone like Totti etc would have been a much of a muchness with Charlton and Rivaldo. Don't quite see that happening with Enzo though. Recall pming Anto in one of the older drafts and asking his thoughts on Enzo as a CF, as I hadn't watched much of him and he pretty much set it straight and allayed my doubts (pretty much the same as yours right now)