Only Fools and Horses R1 - Harms vs Enigma

[Šjor Bepo]

vs

Team Harms

Spoiler: Peaks

Pat Jennings. 1973-1976. FWA Footballer of the Year 1972/73; PFA Player’s Player of the Year 1975/76; PFA First Division Team of the Year 1973/74, 1975/76; Ballon d’Or: 23th (1973), 27th (1975).

Bobby Moore. 1967-1970. Ballon d’Or: 2nd (1970), 22th (1968); World Soccer World XI 1968, 1969; UEFA Euro TotT 1968; West Ham Player of the Year: 1968, 1970.

Albert Shesternyov. 1967-1970. Ballon d’Or: 10th (1970), 11th (1969), 14th (1968); Soviet Footballer of the Year (1970, 3rd place – 1968, 1969); UEFA Euro TotT 1968.

John Greig. 1973-1976. Scottish Player of the Year 1975/76.

Paul Reaney. 1968-1971. // First Division 1968/69.

Nobby Stiles. 1965-1968. // World Cup 1966; European Cup 1967/68; First Division 1966/67.

Bobby Murdoch. 1966-1969. Scottish Player of the Year 1968/69 // European Cup 1966/67.

Marcus Rashford. 2017-2020. Premier League Player of the Month Jan 2019; Europa League TotT 2019/20.

Igor Chislenko. 1964-1967. Ballon d’Or 9th (1967), 18th (1966).

Andriy Shevchenko. 1998-2001. Ballon d’Or 3rd (1999, 2000), 8th (2001); CL Top-scorer 1999, 2001; Serie A Top-scorer 2000; Ukranian League Top-scorer 1999; Serie A Foreign Footballer of the Year 2000; Ukranian Footballer of the Year 1999, 2000, 2001.

Denis Law. 1962-1965. Ballon d’Or 1st (1964), 4th (1963), 11th (1962, 1965) // First Division 1964/65

British-based 4-4-2 with a modern twist. Based on a brilliant defensive base (Shesternyov, arguably the greatest ever Eatsern European defender, gives both size and pace that Moore ideally requires from his partner). On the left I have John Greig – the greatest ever Ranger (officially), who had spent a lot of his career in the 70's as a left back (winning his second Scottish Player of the Year in 1975/76 as one). On the right we have Paul Reaney, the ever-dependable Don Reavie's asset with 745 appearances for Leeds United and personal kudos from George Best as his toughest opponent ever.

Moore is often getting criticised for his apparent lack of pace but before he gets "found out" against Eto'o, I'd like to share his arguably greatest ever individual performances against the attack that had featured an incredibly fast and quick-footed forward in Jairzinho (Eto'o), an all-time great number 10 in Pelé (Zidane) and a nifty supporting striker in Tostão (Dalglish). It always surprised me how well he defended that wide left channel, hence why I wanted to try and play him as an LCB this round – sadly, the injuries fecked me up:

In the middle we have Bobby Murdoch – Glasgow Lions themselves often talk of him being the best player of that side. The famous Jim Craig's quote perfectly describes his importance for that team: "When Murdoch plays, Celtic play!". Nobby Stiles does what he did best – provides defensive cover and hassles opposition's best player (even physical freaks like Eusebio had trouble playing well when the toothless warrior got to his business). I've highlighted Chislenko multiple times before – and I'll need his pace and trickery in the initial phase to move the ball further up; plus, he was surprisingly selfless and hardworking for a player that had consistently skinned the best defenders in history of the game like Facchetti and Moore.

Rashford plays in a hybrid wing role which should be familiar to any United fan by now – it gives him more space to run into and more opportunities to showcase his impressive technical arsenal. As for Law and Sheva – I've wanted to pair them together for so long! In Law we have the perfect line-leading striker – but if you've looked into him (and @Joga Bonito's compilations) more closely, you'll see that he wasn't just a fox-in-the-box, he was an incredible footballer who could easily drop deeper to the number 10 spot or even run outwide – which is why he had worked so well with the likes of Law and Best. Sheva is, in my opinion, one of the greatest number 9s of all-time, but he is also far from a traditional targetman – and he especially loved that inside-right channel. I'll link his arguably greatest ever performance below when you'll see how devastating he can be in such a role (with Protasov sharing a lot of qualities with Law, although Denis was obviously a much, much better player individually).


Also here's some random bit of recent punditry that I found quite funny:

I think this guy is 30 years of age, an international player, he’s a car crash, he keeps making these types of mistakes and rightly punished for it.

Team Enigma

Formation: 5-3-2, counterattacking

Defence:
A sold base that consists of one of Italy’s greatest defenders, marshalled by Scirea in his natural libero role. He’s flanked by Ferrara and Bergomi who combine grit, power and fantastic man marking ability, considering they will likely face a front duo too. The three of them form an impenetrable unit which will make it hard for the opposition to break down.
Carboni had a very long and successful career as a wing back and full back and will provide width on the left, whilst Walker established himself as one of Premier league most solid right backs that and into the attacking phase which resulted him earnings transfer to city and then winning the Premier League twice as a starter and being three times in team of the year.

Midfield:
Zidane is the cherry on top and plays on top of a very industrious midfield duo in Fernandinho and Wimmer, who will close opponents down in the middle with their bundle of energy, move the ball up field when required and give him the stage to put a man of the match performance. Zidane’s passing and Eto’o ability to get at the end of his passes is a good route to goal for us especially on the counter.
Zidane is the cherry on top and plays on top of a very industrious midfield duo in Fernandinho and Wimmer, who will close opponents down in the middle with their bundle of energy, move the ball up field when required and give him the stage to put a man of the match performance. Zidane’s passing and Eto’o ability to get at the end of his passes is a good route to goal for us especially on the counter.

Attack:
Dalglish is notorious to play very well in a striker duo and alongside Eto’o forms a very suitable partnership, considering he’s great in his ability to play with the back to the goal, whilst Eto’o is excellent in finding space and moving into alleys.

Overview:
A team that our main players would relish to play into (Zidane, Scirea, Bergomi, Eto’o) and I’ve build it in that consideration for them to play in their best roles and positions.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

@harms @Enigma_87 good luck

 

[Port Vale Devil]

Nice team there Enigma, I do like that set up with the full backs bombing forward even if one of them is that idiot Walker.

 

[Port Vale Devil]

Booby Moore so classy on and off the park. What a guy to have marshalling your defence Harms.

 

[Enigma_87]

Nice team there Enigma, I do like that set up with the full backs bombing forward even if one of them is that idiot Walker.

Cheers, mate.

Obviously Kyle Walker defensive ability was going to be questioned, but to me he's well covered here. Bergomi is as good as it gets in terms of covering for a wingback in his natural RCB role and on top of that Wimmer is well known to prefer the right hand side and can offer additional cover when needed.

good luck @harms will try to catch up with the discussion as it has been a tough week workwise for me this.

thanks for setting it up @Šjor Bepo

 

[Šjor Bepo]

@harms anything on Murdoch? He is the key, its an absolute must that he is great and calm on the ball, Chislenko is good but is a winger at the end of the day and Rashford for all his qualities and there are plenty of them is fairly wasteful in the build-up. Nobby god bless his sould was an absolute turd on the ball so a lot falls on Murdoch as you cant really count on Moore and Law to control you the game. Also, he must be quality in order to keep enigmas central core centrally, so wingers can exploit wingbacks.

Also if you have anything on Greig and Reaney will watch Greig video after the england game.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Rashford, Law and Sheva together doesn’t sit well with me harms.

Ferrara Scirea Bergomi is as good as it gets in this pool though. Can’t see myself voting against Enigma in this draft. Especially with the attack sorted too.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Rashford, Law and Sheva together doesn’t sit well with me harms.

Ferrara Scirea Bergomi is as good as it gets in this pool though. Can’t see myself voting against Enigma in this draft. Especially with the attack sorted too.

whats wrong with the trio? IMO Law makes it work brilliantly with his selflessness and great all-around game.

 

[harms]

Rashford, Law and Sheva together doesn’t sit well with me harms.

Ferrara Scirea Bergomi is as good as it gets in this pool though. Can’t see myself voting against Enigma in this draft. Especially with the attack sorted too.

I'd second Sjor's quesition, I'd like to see that point elaborated. We've seen how well Rashford had worked with Martial and Greenwood. Law is an amazing striker and one of the most versatile strikers of all-time alongside Seeler as he can play as a 10 and on both wings (especially on the right), as well as press and, of course, act as a proper number 9. Sheva (notice the earlier peak that doesn't include his Ballon d'Or) was a striker that absolutely loved breaking through that inside right channel – and he did it so often and so efficiently.

Even at AC Milan he had exploited that channel quite often (such a shame that Ferrara spent than game on the bench)

I'd prefer Sheva/Law with a number 10, but their ability and work-rate leave no doubt in my mind that they can (and will) work fantastic with Rashford as well.

@harms anything on Murdoch? He is the key, its an absolute must that he is great and calm on the ball

NB: That's him with a serious injury if I recall this correctly:

However, he was hindered on that memorable day in the Portuguese capital following a stamp on his right foot by a desperate Inter Milan defender early in the game.

The midfielder would later say: “The pain shot right through me. It was probably an accident, but it was a dull one. If there had been outfield substitutes available back then, I might have had to go off. As it was, though, we only had substitute goalkeeper John Fallon on the bench that day.

“Big Jock told me: ‘Run it off, Bobby, you’ll be fine.’ As the game progressed towards half-time, I looked down and my right ankle seemed to be twice the size it was at the kick-off

“People must have wondered why I was favouring my left foot that day. Fortunately, I was two-footed, but my right was undoubtedly the stronger of the two. I even managed to get a couple of left-footed shots on target that day, but both were saved.”

This is just one example. He's so calm and composed and surprisingly elegant for someone of his stature.

Celtic wiki is always a good source on their players.
http://www.thecelticwiki.com/page/Murdoch,+Bobby

Also, loved this picture

Also if you have anything on Greig and Reaney will watch Greig video after the england game.

I'm working on a game from 1969 against Bayern (again), and he was absolutely magnificent as a center back (showcases a lot of his ball-playing skills even outshining a rather young Beckenbauer in that part). I really want to look closer into him and his career, it's insane that someone who is officially named as the best ever Ranger is so underrepresented in terms of the content/profiles etc.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

@harms anything on Murdoch? He is the key, its an absolute must that he is great and calm on the ball,

I had him in previous round. Started off as a forward and despite scoring some good goals wasn't influential. Jock Stein moved him to Right Half and is career took off. Very good passing and able to kinda the midfield engine for the team able to pass spread play and dictate pace.

I heard a story about when Auld and Stiles faced off and Stiles broke Auld's collar. Auld refused to come off and went after Stiles who had to be stretchered out in the end. I think Murdoch-Stiles is a good pairing.

Rashford, Law and Sheva together doesn’t sit well with me harms.

Law would be well suited to play Inside Right and Sheva is a well rounded forward. As long as Rashford stick to left flank, the trio will function smoothly.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Two really good teams. Harsh matchup this.

Any information on Chislenko harms? Not sure if you have a video in OP as it's blocked for me.

As to Enigma, rock solid defence and midfield and not. Even Walker is safe with Bergomi covering. What I'm not convinced is Zidane/Dalglish combo. In this kind of formation, I'd prefer both forwards to be able to peel wide and more mobile. Dalglish lacked the pace and tended to operate more centrally overlapping a lot with Zidane. I just don't see the pairing complementing each other.

 

[harms]

Any information on Chislenko harms? Not sure if you have a video in OP as it's blocked for me.

My overall compilation is based on his attacking skills mostly, but I recommend watching his game vs Italy to get a sense of his defensive & all-round game. He was very involved in the build-up and always covered a left back & drove the ball forward – I actually thought of using him as a RWB.


Match compilations (there are a bit more of them, but most of them are blocked on YouTube because... FIFA)

Igor Chislenko
66 vs Italy - Sjor Vimeo 2
64 vs Spain - Harms Youtube
68 vs Austria - Harms Youtube

Harms
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCocP_N9Uve_xFfEj_EALPnw/videos

Sjor
https://vimeo.com/user19033374
https://vimeo.com/user114528399

 

[Isotope]

Two really good teams. Harsh matchup this.

Any information on Chislenko harms? Not sure if you have a video in OP as it's blocked for me.

As to Enigma, rock solid defence and midfield and not. Even Walker is safe with Bergomi covering. What I'm not convinced is Zidane/Dalglish combo. In this kind of formation, I'd prefer both forwards to be able to peel wide and more mobile. Dalglish lacked the pace and tended to operate more centrally overlapping a lot with Zidane. I just don't see the pairing complementing each other.

Zidane can peel slightly left, and Eto'o to the right.

Although agreed. Two good teams. With the right addition, maybe could challenge Gio/2mufc team next round.
I'm leaning to Enigma's because the team is more creative. Although I can see Harms duo, Law and Sheva, would work superb up front.

 

[Himannv]

I think I need to watch the Italy game to come to a conclusion on Chislenko.

 

[Enigma_87]

Two really good teams. Harsh matchup this.

Any information on Chislenko harms? Not sure if you have a video in OP as it's blocked for me.

As to Enigma, rock solid defence and midfield and not. Even Walker is safe with Bergomi covering. What I'm not convinced is Zidane/Dalglish combo. In this kind of formation, I'd prefer both forwards to be able to peel wide and more mobile. Dalglish lacked the pace and tended to operate more centrally overlapping a lot with Zidane. I just don't see the pairing complementing each other.

Odd criticism about Dalglish and Zidane. This is not a four man attack and there is plenty of space for everyone. Also as @Isotope mentioned Zidane loved the left channel and can easily drift wide. Eto’o is known to drift right and has played even like a right winger for Mourinho.
I prefer to have two creative outlets than only one and don’t consider it a minus but exactly the opposite in the attacking third.

 

[Enigma_87]

@harms anything on Murdoch? He is the key, its an absolute must that he is great and calm on the ball, Chislenko is good but is a winger at the end of the day and Rashford for all his qualities and there are plenty of them is fairly wasteful in the build-up. Nobby god bless his sould was an absolute turd on the ball so a lot falls on Murdoch as you cant really count on Moore and Law to control you the game. Also, he must be quality in order to keep enigmas central core centrally, so wingers can exploit wingbacks.

Also if you have anything on Greig and Reaney will watch Greig video after the england game.

Aye, this is my biggest concern with harms team. We can frustrate them in the middle and it seems only Murdoch is the sole creative outlet in his team and the others are better without the ball and they need someone to utilise their runs and off the ball movement.

 

[harms]

Aye, this is my biggest concern with harms team. We can frustrate them in the middle and it seems only Murdoch is the sole creative outlet in his team and the others are better without the ball and they need someone to utilise their runs and off the ball movement.

Murdoch, Chislenko, Moore and Greig are certainly good enough to provide enough creativity in the initial stage.

 

[Enigma_87]

Murdoch, Chislenko, Moore and Greig are certainly good enough to provide enough creativity in the initial stage.

The issue for me is in the middle. I don't rate Stiles much and I don't expect Moore and Greig to run the game. Chislenko is still a winger and against a very high intensity duo in Wimmer and Fernandinho, helped out by Scirea and Zidane I can see us shoring your options there.

Greig is also not a natural full back and from what I know about him he's at his best at CB. Not that he can't play there of course, but I'd definitely prefer a natural left back in that setup.

 

[harms]

Greig is also not a natural full back and from what I know about him he's at his best at CB. Not that he can't play there of course, but I'd definitely prefer a natural left back in that setup.

That's on you, I think. He has played in pretty much every position, but he has spent a lot of the 70's as a left back, including the year where he was chosen Scottish Footballer of the Year for the second time. His previous "main" position was a defensive/box-to-box midfielder, and when you look at how he plays, he often drops to the defense (and not just to CB, but more like Voronin – to any vulnerable space). His passing was absolutely top notch as well.

I don't need Xavi to run the game – I have 3 great long passers at the back/middle, I have great ball-carriers in Chislenko, Murdoch & all of my forwards (who love to drop deeper), and I'm playing a counter-attacking set up. You're also most vulnerable at the wings and this is where most of my forward movement would take place at.

 

[harms]

Tbf while a lot has been said about my supposed issues in the centre, I'm not really sure how well is Enigma equipped to break my defense. Moore's performance against mainly Jairzinho (and Pelé) shows you all you should know about him vs Eto'o, Shesternyov is a fantastic cover for anyone, Stiles is going to make Zidane's life slightly more difficult (somehow he had managed to do that to Eusebio twice)... Greig can tuck in quite comfortably as well.

And his wingbacks are quite poor tbf, considering the attacking output that you expect from those in a 3-5-2 formation. Walker is all pace and no brain; Carboni is a bit better but he's not exactly a top attacking wing-back in my eyes.

 

[Enigma_87]

Tbf while a lot has been said about my supposed issues in the centre, I'm not really sure how well is Enigma equipped to break my defense. Moore's performance against mainly Jairzinho (and Pelé) shows you all you should know about him vs Eto'o, Shesternyov is a fantastic cover for anyone, Stiles is going to make Zidane's life slightly more difficult (somehow he had managed to do that to Eusebio twice)... Greig can tuck in quite comfortably as well.

And his wingbacks are quite poor tbf, considering the attacking output that you expect from those in a 3-5-2 formation. Walker is all pace and no brain; Carboni is a bit better but he's not exactly a top attacking wing-back in my eyes.

Stiles vs Zidane is a big mismatch to me. Stiles didn’t single handedly took care of Eusebuo - that’s misleading and to me a big myth. It was a team effort that included a lot of effort and that was certainly not a man marking job.

Greig can't really tuck in as I don't expect Rashford to track Walker up and down the pitch and Walker for all his other issues is pretty good going forward and has provided width for City in the past proving to be important player for them in their 2 title runs.

As it was mentioned we have players in attack able to peel wide and if you flip it I can easily say the same and to me our defence is better than yours IMO and they are well protected considering two defensively sound midfielders (one very fluent in covering the right flank in Wimmer) and two wingbacks

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

whats wrong with the trio? IMO Law makes it work brilliantly with his selflessness and great all-around game.

It doesn't work in my eyes because it's as good as starting Rashford, Martial and Cavani, while also having a right winger (say James)

For all of Law's completeness, the team desperately calls out for a Bruno-esque figure in the hole.

 

[Physiocrat]

It doesn't work in my eyes because it's as good as starting Rashford, Martial and Cavani, while also having a right winger (say James)

For all of Law's completeness, the team desperately calls out for a Bruno-esque figure in the hole.

Agree entirely.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

It doesn't work in my eyes because it's as good as starting Rashford, Martial and Cavani, while also having a right winger (say James)

For all of Law's completeness, the team desperately calls out for a Bruno-esque figure in the hole.

yeah, i dont see any similarities between United trio and this...."Bruno" argument i can understand but not the United comparison as players couldnt be more different in terms of style.

 

[harms]

yeah, i dont see any similarities between United trio and this...."Bruno" argument i can understand but not the United comparison as players couldnt be more different in terms of style.

It's more of an example of three forwards working together including Rashford. Law and Sheva are very different compared to Martial & Greenwood and they would compliment him way better.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

The Greenwood example is flawed for me. More often than not, Greenwood plays wide and cuts in when all 3 of them start.

 

[Himannv]

Swayed by that debate on the front 3. Voted for Enigma.

 

[Gio]

It doesn't work in my eyes because it's as good as starting Rashford, Martial and Cavani, while also having a right winger (say James)

For all of Law's completeness, the team desperately calls out for a Bruno-esque figure in the hole.

Yeah I see it differently. Not really sure why the tactical standard for debate is United’s current set up, when Law, Shevchenko, Murdoch and Stiles have played in Europe-conquering set-ups which weren’t reliant on a Bruno Fernandes figure. Don’t see any reason why those 4 wouldn’t be comfortable in this 442 system. Raahford is not a clean fit albeit fairly inconsequential given what he’s up against and the quality elsewhere on both sides.

Both defences look rock solid and Enigma has a really solid spine where Zidane can win any game. But I really liked the set up for harms’ front two, ahead of Murdoch in a very, very similar system to the one he won the European Cup in. And then Greig at left back looking like he’d get time to influence the game. And he’s one of the most influential players I’ve seen on these isles.

 

[Enigma_87]

Tbh @Gio i see @harms side more of a 4-2-4 rather than 4-4-2.

Rashford and Chislenko are more of attackers compared to midfielders and to me this is a 4 man attack.
This is why I found Edgars comment very strange to criticise my attack.

Rashford is far from a good fit at LW at 4-4-2. He’s at his best closer to goal. I don’t mind the personnel but I definitely don’t agree with Rashford being a good fit as LW in 4-4-2.

 

[harms]

Rashford and Chislenko are more of attackers compared to midfielders and to me this is a 4 man attack.

Again, based on? You keep posting some weird assessments about the likes of Chislenko and Greig. It's not a forward version of Chislenko and he had played a lot (way more than as a forward) as a midfielder/winger in his career.

 

[Enigma_87]

Again, based on? You keep posting some weird assessments about the likes of Chislenko and Greig. It's not a forward version of Chislenko and he had played a lot (way more than as a forward) as a midfielder/winger in his career.

based on from what I’ve seen from your compilations, the era he played in and of course personal opinion of the setup. Besides as I said I have more issues with Rashford at LW rather than Chislenko at RW as per my previous comment.

On Greig - again based on what I personally know about him and what I think his best position is - centrally.

 

[harms]

What could've been

 

[Enigma_87]

Good game @harms . I knew that was going to go down to the wire and I didn’t expect to overcome the 4 votes deficit tbh.

Why didn’t you start Ze Roberto, btw? I don’t know for others but rate him at LB and IMO would have suited your side better.

On Chislenko - I think you are selling him quite well and I can see his stocks rising and getting picked more regularly in all time drafts which is nice to see.

 

[harms]

Good game @harms . I knew that was going to go down to the wire and I didn’t expect to overcome the 4 votes deficit tbh.

Why didn’t you start Ze Roberto, btw? I don’t know for others but rate him at LB and IMO would have suited your side better.

On Chislenko - I think you are selling him quite well and I can see his stocks rising and getting picked more regularly in all time drafts which is nice to see.

Greig is a better LB than Ze Roberto. I would've started the latter as a wing-back if not for McGrath's injury though.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

What could've been

I'd bet good money on your team being the best loser to face Synco in the playoff.

Edit: Between you and physio probably