Only Fools and Horses SF - Himann vs P-nut

With all players at their peak, which team do you think would win this game?


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Šjor Bepo

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vs


Team Himann

Tactics: 3-4-1-2 counter-attacking setup with tight defensive lines. Aggressive overloads in attacking phase similar to a Gasperini Atalanta side.

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Defensive phase


Defensive operation of the system
  • In the defensive phase the team lines up in a 5-3-2 or a 5-2-1-2.
  • Counter attacking setup that aims to use Owen's pace and Baggio's skill when the opposition is committed to breaking us down.
  • Aim to reduce the space attackers have to operate and use the energy of Bonhof and Vieira to cover the backline.
  • Kohler most likely dealing with opposition's main threat.
  • Zico is key to transitioning from defense to attack quickly.

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Attacking phase

Gasperini's Atalanta line up in a way similar to the following graphic:



This has the following features:
  • CBs with good understanding of each other and zones.
  • Good attacking front 3.
  • Alejandro Gomez has a key role in the side as the lone ‘1’ in the 3-4-1-2 formation. He plays in a free role, creating and scoring goals.
  • Positional rotation - e.g., if the CM moves wider the WB might tuck in centrally.
  • A diamond is formed between the wide CB, WB, CM and ST. Here's an example:
  • They employ a high press that is man-to-man.
  • They switch to a 5-2-1-2.

How my team differs from Atalanta:
  • We do not press high but drop deeper in the 5-2-1-2 and use the counter.
  • We do not rotate positionally as often as Atalanta do.
  • Our CMs don't roam too far from the center of midfield
  • We do not play as high up the pitch as Atalanta do.


Attacking operation of the system
  • When in possession, this team operates similar to Gasperini's Atlanta, although it is not an exact replica.
  • As evidenced in the above formation graphic, the diamonds include the passing lanes used to move the ball forward and through a press.
  • Unlike Gasperini teams, CMs are not gung-ho and charging too far forward.
  • Zico in a free role similar to Atlanta's Gomez

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Peak years
  • Michael Owen (2000 - 2003)
  • Roberto Baggio (1992 - 1995),
  • Zico (1981 - 1984)
  • Rainer Bonhof (1974 - 1977)
  • Patrick Vieira (2000 - 2003)
  • Dani Alves (2009 - 2011)
  • Ruud Krol (1974 - 1977)
  • Jurgen Kohler (1991 - 1994)
  • Gary Pallister (1990 - 1993)
  • Cesar Azpilicueta (2013 - 2016)
  • Jan Oblak (2015 - 2018)

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Key players:

Zico - The main creative force in this setup.

Baggio - A key player who can both create and score. The following video is a nice compilation of him that focuses more on the scoring aspect:



Team P-nut


4132 / 442

Aim is to stifle the game and close down the centre of the park. One of Speed and Beckham will work wide when we need to defend deep and the other tucks in to keep the presence in midfield.

De Boer comes in for the injured Pearce at full back.

Ince returns from injury to anchor the midfield and free up Robson.

Speed and Beckham tuck in to take control of the midfield battle and dominate the ball.

Can't not do a little more on Speed on the anniversary of his death. Here he combines his work rate with his attacking instincts that saw him score plenty in his long career. Known as Mr. Reliable he was a consistent 7/10 player, dependable and always willing to put a shift in. He slots in seemlessly with the midfield ethos of engine, work rate and technical ability.

Rooney plays slightly deeper than MvB linking the attack. He has free reign to move all across the pitch with his energetic style.

MvB adds the killer instinct in front of goal, his clever movement and link up play should allow Rooney and Robson to play off of him and slot him through on goal.
 

P-Nut

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Initial thoughts, my defence is set up to deal with the threats Himaanv attackers pose.

Owen has faced King 6 times scoring only twice.

The area Zico and Baggio are going to want to work in is the most congested on the field.

Looks like a tight game overall and I'd back MvB to be the clinical difference between the teams.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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I see P-Nut's midfield and think 4-4-2 automatically. Considering both Speed and Becks ability to operate infield, it'd be a narrow 4-4-2 with players drifting wide as needed. Complimentary players and good fits tactically. And hardworking too! Could do with bit more star quality though!

As for Himann, the player quality is higher than P-Nut's across the board. Though I'm not convinced on positions of Pally & Krol. Would prefer to Bonhof and Vieira were swapped too.

Still need to think of Baggio/Zico partnership. Would have preferred either to be partnered with another non-dominant player. Someone like Rui Costa or Kopa would be more suited for Baggio and a SS like Gullit/Elkjaer etc might be better suited for Zico.

Close game overall. Will look for more discussions.
 

Himannv

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Initial thoughts, my defence is set up to deal with the threats Himaanv attackers pose.

Owen has faced King 6 times scoring only twice.

The area Zico and Baggio are going to want to work in is the most congested on the field.

Looks like a tight game overall and I'd back MvB to be the clinical difference between the teams.
I did think I'd have more of the ball hence the attacking phase tactics, and I think it's a very good tactic to breakdown teams although this is slightly more conservative to make us less open. As such, I think we'll be on the front foot here. Personally I think Ince has a lot of work to do to stop Zico in this game. He's in a free role and completely in his element. If I think about a player who fits Gomez's Atalanta role, I can't think of a more suitable player than Zico, he's just as perfect a fit as it gets.

Regarding head-to-head records of Owen and King, that's an inaccurate record because it doesn't take into consideration the 3 year peak that we consider. If we take only Owen's peak, it's 1 goal in 2 games against King - however, that's inaccurate as well because you've selected a peak that doesn't actually have any overlapping matches so I don't think we can consider this. Coming around to @Šjor Bepo's thinking on this peak thing.

I think the tactics clearly outline the role differences between Zico and Baggio. My thinking is that with Atalanta's method of progressing the ball, Baggio will be running against the CB although he won't be on the shoulder of the last man as much as peak Owen will be. Zico in the free role will be the playmaker but Gomez will also score himself and I think Zico will fit that mold nicely.
 

Gio

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Hard to decide if Zico/Baggio would be a Mustard-inspired spunkfest or are just too similar to maximise one another's qualities.
 

Physiocrat

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Would Michael Owen like playing alongside Baggio? At his peak (not his late career move towards a sort of 10 at Newcastle) he was also best next to a big man. He didn't play as well alongside Rooney as he did with Heskey (I note that the Rooney partnership is outside the stated peak). I'm open to the possibility he will thrive here but it would be interesting to hear @Himannv 's take.
 

Himannv

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Haven't watched much of Serie A but isn't Atalanta a high line, high press possession side? Is that the same tactic used here?
Atalanta goes with a high line and high press, yes, but that is just a small part of their overall tactics. They do positional rotation, and play out using their wide CBs using the diamond as mentioned in the OP.

This team is not an exact replica and will not press high or play with a high line. We play with a medium block and press deeper to launch counters once the opposition has committed more players forward. There is an element of positional rotation here and the diamond setup to play the ball out - the formation is the same and the player roles are very similar, but then there are differences, particularly in the defensive phase.
 

Himannv

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Would Michael Owen like playing alongside Baggio? At his peak (not his late career move towards a sort of 10 at Newcastle) he was also best next to a big man. He didn't play as well alongside Rooney as he did with Heskey (I note that the Rooney partnership is outside the stated peak). I'm open to the possibility he will thrive here but it would be interesting to hear @Himannv 's take.
I looked at his peak with a mindset of playing him as a striker who would get on the end of passes and score. This goal was the one that really was stuck in my head when I made this selection:


Perfect goal poacher goal, using his pace and is directly up against the last man. That's what I envision here.

Having said that, I don't disagree that Owen and Heskey were a great pairing, but for me, Owen was fine as a pure poacher without a big man as well. This game where he scored a hattrick in 2001 clearly illustrates that to me. 1st goal is him scoring off a set piece, the 2nd is a lovely layoff header from Heskey to Owen, and the 3rd is a pure goal poacher goal, getting on the end of the pass and finishing.

 

Šjor Bepo

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Really dont like Ince in that role, he was at his best causing havoc between two boxes not protecting one. Looking at this midfield duo, would be much better to use older version of Robbo for that task.
 

Himannv

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As for Himann, the player quality is higher than P-Nut's across the board. Though I'm not convinced on positions of Pally & Krol. Would prefer to Bonhof and Vieira were swapped too.

Still need to think of Baggio/Zico partnership. Would have preferred either to be partnered with another non-dominant player. Someone like Rui Costa or Kopa would be more suited for Baggio and a SS like Gullit/Elkjaer etc might be better suited for Zico.
Let me address Pallister and Krol first. Kohler is comfortable on the left and is comfortable enough on the ball and can play out from the back while being defensively solid in the LCB position. Atalanta's style of play require the wide CBs to be quite decent on the ball - and while they're not as marauding as Wilder's CBs, they are required to be better on the ball than the center CB. As such Kohler and Azpi fit those slots nicely. Similarly, Pallister fits as the center CB - he was the more defensive one out of him and Bruce and got stuck in and did the work well and covered nicely.

Krol in this 3 year peak was mostly an LB - he became the 3rd place Balon D'Or sweeper version a few years after this. This version of Krol would be more than comfortable in this role and would thrive in the attacking opportunities afforded to him out wide in this setup. This is the Ajax total football version who'd be comfortable at LW or CM even. He's one of the better fits for this kind of tactical setup.

Regarding Bonhof and Vieira, I'm sort of open to that change. For me, Bonhof is one of the most versatile players in the history of football, and I think he'd be comfortable on either side and has certainly played on both sides as I recall. Vieira didn't strike me as a CM who really preferred a side either. In the games I've watched of him I recall a few crosses with his right foot when operating from that side, while also those runs from the left. For most part I felt he was operating smack bang in the middle of the pitch.

Personally I believe Baggio and Zico will operate well together, particularly because their positions and roles are different in this tactical setup. I don't particularly disagree that a Gullit or Elkjaer will fit in well with Zico - those two fit in well in almost any setup, they're lovely players.
 

P-Nut

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Sorry not been around much had a lot of stuff come up.

Really dont like Ince in that role, he was at his best causing havoc between two boxes not protecting one. Looking at this midfield duo, would be much better to use older version of Robbo for that task.
It probably should have been depicted as a 442 to be honest, just wanted to show that Becks and Speed were going to be tucking in and that Ince would be dropping into the space between defense and midfield in the defensive phase when Himaanv has sustained possession.

Probably shown the formation in the defensive phase rather than the attacking for some reason, brain fart on my part.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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Let me address Pallister and Krol first. Kohler is comfortable on the left and is comfortable enough on the ball and can play out from the back while being defensively solid in the LCB position. Atalanta's style of play require the wide CBs to be quite decent on the ball - and while they're not as marauding as Wilder's CBs, they are required to be better on the ball than the center CB. As such Kohler and Azpi fit those slots nicely. Similarly, Pallister fits as the center CB - he was the more defensive one out of him and Bruce and got stuck in and did the work well and covered nicely.

Interesting, so Pally is playing a classical sweeper (a la Picchi) rather than the modern libero in the back 3. Kohler is a good fit as LCB but as a expansive ball playing side CB...it's not really that clear. I need to watch some videos to see if he's that comfortable out wide (as he's covering centrally for a libero). But then with Krol (who I also believe is better in back 4) that should not be an issue. Azpi certainly can play RB and cover for Alves. I reckon the duo should match well for Speed/De Boer.
 

Jim Beam

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I mean I can see a bit of advantage without him, but why would you bench Eusebio? You have enough playmaking in Zico and become even more dangerous on the counter especially considering fast transition is one of the key elements in your attacking phase.

And there are quite a few differences @Himannv to Atalanta here. You explained them in details, but when you do the math there are almost more differences then similarities considering it is the same tactic in terms of going 3-4-1-2.

I still do like it a lot, mind you.

As for P-nut, think he should have just line up in regular 4-4-2. Would be a bit easier on the eye and team will anyway function pretty much that way. Rooney - Van Basten is a lovely combo.
 

Himannv

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I mean I can see a bit of advantage without him, but why would you bench Eusebio? You have enough playmaking in Zico and become even more dangerous on the counter especially considering fast transition is one of the key elements in your attacking phase.

And there are quite a few differences @Himannv to Atalanta here. You explained them in details, but when you do the math there are almost more differences then similarities considering it is the same tactic in terms of going 3-4-1-2.

I still do like it a lot, mind you.

As for P-nut, think he should have just line up in regular 4-4-2. Would be a bit easier on the eye and team will anyway function pretty much that way. Rooney - Van Basten is a lovely combo.
Benching Eusebio was a difficult choice to make but, despite my whinging, I've actually enjoyed the managerial aspect of this draft where you have to make some sacrifices at times considering balance and injuries and such. I know the Enigma rule isn't in play here, but I've also enjoyed changing formation and tactics to include something akin to Simeone's Atletico, Ole's United, and now Gasperini's Atalanta. It's challenging, but also really refreshing in a way. Kudos for introducing this sort of element into drafts @Šjor Bepo

I do agree with criticism in previous matches that Eusebio is ball dominant in a side that has other ball dominant players and I felt I had to choose between Zico and Eusebio for this one - Zico fit the tactic better here and was the obvious choice for a Gomez inspired role.

In general, I've been caught in a position where I want Eusebio to be the star of the team and win the draft with him and also wanting the same for Zico. I think these two are just magnificent players and don't win drafts often enough despite their qualities. I've been considering formations like the Christmas Tree, Brazil's magic square, and even a WM to fit them both into the team but it's all up in the air at the moment and I haven't decided on how I want this team to end up. Can they both function well together in the same team? - Personally, I think they can, but it's tricky to break the stereotypical thinking on how they might function together, because the reality is that Eusebio never really played in teams where he would have to coexist with someone like Zico.

Regarding Atalanta, yes, I think there are some big differences here - I've been more conservative because I don't like how open they are at times, and also because the players I have at my disposal have slightly different characteristics in some positions. So I've made the changes to the original Atalanta setup but I included some of the aspects I liked.
 

Jim Beam

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Cheers, personally I don't see any problem with him and Zico, especially in fast transition.
Sometimes players had to play in a certain way and while I agree Eusebio looked ball dominant he never looked selfish, so another great player who will pull the defence on himself opening the space for Eusebio would just help him massively.
 

Gio

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@Physiocrat Baggio carrying the ball, drawing defenders towards him, as Owen runs off the shoulder into the gaps - sounds like it plays to his strengths. Obviously 3 midgets up top means the defence cannot resort to lumping it under pressure so everything hinges on a measured and slick build up.
 

Physiocrat

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@Physiocrat Baggio carrying the ball, drawing defenders towards him, as Owen runs off the shoulder into the gaps - sounds like it plays to his strengths. Obviously 3 midgets up top means the defence cannot resort to lumping it under pressure so everything hinges on a measured and slick build up.
That makes sense. Maybe I'd have a different view of Owen if he had played in a more of a progressive build up kind of side.
 

harms

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That makes sense. Maybe I'd have a different view of Owen if he had played in a more of a progressive build up kind of side.
Not sure that he had it in him to be fair (at least to do that at a top level). Zico serving his through-balls to him would be a sight to watch though.
 

Gio

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Not sure that he had it in him to be fair (at least to do that at a top level). Zico serving his through-balls to him would be a sight to watch though.
True, I think someone like Pep would have got frustrated with his hold-up play, but his sharp finishing from crosses, movement and quickfire acceleration in tight spaces would have saw him score a barrel-load of goals in such a system.
 

Enigma_87

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@Himannv fantastic team, even considering benching Eusebio.

Eusebio and Zico is no issue whatsoever and to me that team would be even greater with him in the lineup.

Zico is a great passer and exploiting Eusebio's movement would be a bigger headache for any defence.
 

Šjor Bepo

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tbf Atalanta manager is not using that kid we signed so respect for h-man staying loyal to the theme:drool:
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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Just thinking how to fit all of Baggio, Zico and Eusebio in one team.

Heynckes-------Baggio-----Johnstone
---------------Zico--------Eusebio-------------
------------Bonhof-------Vieira----------------
-----Krol-----------Kohler-------Azpil---------

Do it @Himannv
 

Šjor Bepo

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Just thinking how to fit all of Baggio, Zico and Eusebio in one team.

Heynckes-------Baggio-----Johnstone
---------------Zico--------Eusebio-------------
------------Bonhof-------Vieira----------------
-----Krol-----------Kohler-------Azpil---------

Do it @Himannv
How many balls would that team need?
 

Jim Beam

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Just thinking how to fit all of Baggio, Zico and Eusebio in one team.

Heynckes-------Baggio-----Johnstone
---------------Zico--------Eusebio-------------
------------Bonhof-------Vieira----------------
-----Krol-----------Kohler-------Azpil---------

Do it @Himannv
Like it. Would maybe switch Eusebio and Baggio. And would probably prefer someone like Czibor, Nedved, Hamrin type instead of Jinky for more balance.
 

Ecstatic

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@P-Nut

Was Britain/Holland the theme? Also you have long love story with King who symbolizes the type of football players you like!
 

P-Nut

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@P-Nut

Was Britain/Holland the theme? Also you have long love story with King who symbolizes the type of football players you like!
My criteria was British born and then the Dutch I picked up in wildcard type rounds.

Yeah I do have a weird affection for King, think it's the 'what could have been' aspect of his career and never playing for a direct rival