Oppo fans — where do you rank Man United?

[broccoli]

I don't really care about exact numbers but more like a general feel of how I think a club historically is and from what I see worldwide.

The biggest club in the world gotta be Real Madrid, by their sheer number of trophies and current popularity. These are the two most important factors when assessing overall club size, money aside. Currently PSG has seen a lot of growth of popularity especially in Africa and Middle East but their small trophy cabinet leaves the lagging behind other clubs such as Barcelona, AC Milan, United, Bayern Munich, Liverpool and Juventus.

If I had to put this into a ranking I'd say the undisputed #1 would be Real Madrid. With the above group of clubs below. AC Milan, imo, is the one who is closest to level with Real Madrid, potentially. Not just because it's the club with 2nd most UCL wins but because they still hold great popularity worldwide, namely South America and Eastern Asia. They are in pretty bad shape right now but if things went well, like it's happening to Liverpool, I could see Milan easily getting into top2 again.

United is amongst the top8 of Europe in terms of greatness. 3 UCL is still a far cry from Real Madrid and Milan, even from Barcelona/Liverpool/Bayern 5 trophies but UCL wins aren't the only factor determining greatness. United's great popularity boosts them to the top 5-6 and makes them level with Liverpool imo. Of course, all these teams bar Madrid, can see themselves go up and down the list, depending on how a season or two goes, like Liverpool has proven recently.

 

[Paxi]

Yeah, because the most profitable and valuable football club in the world will be banned by UEFA for failing FFP because they can't break even

Honestly what a hyperbolic and frankly daft claim.

@MaxiPaxi why do you care what internet oppos think of us?

Just curiosity mate. I know we’re a huge club but I wondered do we overestimate ourselves. It seems that we’re somewhere in between what fans think and what oppos think which is fair I think.

 

[filibuster]

I think United is a great club, but not a good team. Real Madrid is a great club and a great team. You can't be a great team based on history, you need to perform now.
But your problem is not the manager, is the management. You get a manager and you back him if you want results. I am 100% sure that you would have not been in this situation if you got Willian or Perisic instead of Martial. I know they are older, but you want succes now and your manager is that type that wants succes now.

I think with your financial power you will bounce back pretty fast when your management will be truly on the same page with your manager. Be that Mourinho or someone else.

We had the same problem... and now Sarri seems to be a really good fit for us.

 

[Fridge chutney]

Just curiosity mate. I know we’re a huge club but I wondered do we overestimate ourselves. It seems that we’re somewhere in between what fans think and what oppos think which is fair I think.

Fair enough. To answer your original question:

Tweet

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[KirkDuyt]

United is huge, but to me they're not on the level of Barca, Real,Bayern etc anymore.

 

[A-man]

There's not a team on this planet where Pogba and De Gea wouldn't play week in week out

Its just opinions and hypothetical of course, but I dont think Barca or Bayern would play DDG, and I am not so sure Pogba would be given as starter in Real Madrid.

 

[Fridge chutney]

United is huge, but to me they're not on the level of Barca, Real,Bayern etc anymore.

Depends on how you define huge. Despite the post-SAF "struggles", United is still a huge (and by some measures the hugest) club.

https://travel.zeelo.co/the-top-15-biggest-and-most-supported-football-teams-in-the-world/

 

[Kentonio]

It’s been a strange thing to watch these last 10 years. It felt like football was changing, but United didn’t need to, because SAF kept finding ways to make you win titles regardless. The last few years before he retired, I remember being shocked by the state of your squad, it felt like for once he wasn’t rebuilding properly like he always had, yet even in his last year he found a way to make what felt like a poor United team win once more.

Then with appointing Moyes it felt like the club was convinced that the ‘United way’ was what led to those successes. By then United felt a million miles from the other clubs in terms of attitudes towards managerial appointments, player recruitment and so on. Honestly, it felt dated and I wasn’t at all surprised that Moyes couldn’t do anything with the team and structure he had.

What’s been sad is that since then the club still hasn’t seemed to modernize. First Van Gaal, then Mourinho, it felt like each change was an old school one, at a time when football is changing in a new direction. It felt a bit like fighting tomorrow’s wars with yesterday’s tactics. The positive sign however is that the United board seem to have decided to bring in a DoF, which might signal a step forward. You really need a bright young manager with a modern strategic approach though, to sweep away the cobwebs and set the club on a new path forwards.

It feels like it has to be time for SAF and the old United to be put into the history books, respected and revered by the fans, but not referenced in the day to day running of the club. Football has moved on, and either United move with it, or there’s a very real risk of you becoming the next Liverpool. Right now you’re not a world top 10 club on the field, and for a club with the riches and stature of United, that isn’t a good place to be.

 

[HTG]

Yeah, because the most profitable and valuable football club in the world will be banned by UEFA for failing FFP because they can't break even

Honestly what a hyperbolic and frankly daft claim.

@MaxiPaxi why do you care what internet oppos think of us?

I would assume he or she likes to hear outside opinions, in order to be able to come to a personal judgement, that is less influenced by personal bias and thus more realistic.

 

[Fridge chutney]

I would assume he or she likes to hear outside opinions, in order to be able to come to a personal judgement, that is less influenced by personal bias and thus more realistic.

That is highly debatable based on some of the replies!

 

[KirkDuyt]

Depends on how you define huge. Despite the post-SAF "struggles", United is still a huge (and by some measures the hugest) club.

https://travel.zeelo.co/the-top-15-biggest-and-most-supported-football-teams-in-the-world/

Oh yeah ofcourse, but as a football fan I don't really look at it like that.

United are the biggest club in the world objectively.

 

[Tyinde]

This current united team is not really much better than that everton team under Moyes. We only have DDG and Pogba who can play for other top teams, and most of other wont even get a place on the bench.

 

[Infordin]

In terms of current squad quality:

1. Barcelona
2. Real Madrid
3. Bayern Munich
4. Juventus
5. Manchester City
6. Atletico Madrid
7. Chelsea
8/9/10. Manchester United/Liverpool/Tottenham

I found it difficult to separate the last three. United probably has a bit more depth but a slightly worse starting 11 than Pool and Spurs.

 

[Tyinde]

I think United is a great club, but not a good team. Real Madrid is a great club and a great team. You can't be a great team based on history, you need to perform now.
But your problem is not the manager, is the management. You get a manager and you back him if you want results. I am 100% sure that you would have not been in this situation if you got Willian or Perisic instead of Martial. I know they are older, but you want succes now and your manager is that type that wants succes now.

I think with your financial power you will bounce back pretty fast when your management will be truly on the same page with your manager. Be that Mourinho or someone else.

We had the same problem... and now Sarri seems to be a really good fit for us.

Exactly. United is a financail product since the first day Glazers own it. Making money and play good football is not a same thing.

 

[Infordin]

There's not a team on this planet where Pogba and De Gea wouldn't play week in week out

Modric - Casemiro - Kroos

Who does Pogba bench?

I would even seriously question whether Pogba would bench anyone out of:

James - Martinez - Thiago

 

[bosnian_red]

I actually think that there's a lot of similarities with us and Milan and how they declined. They of course did to a bigger extent, but we have to be careful before we slide further like they did. Big club living off past glories and reputation at this point, constant disappointment after spending big on flops and making the wrong signings like Sanchez time and time again.

 

[deafepl]

I don't think so. Your last league win was 2013, over 5 years ago now. United haven't had much of an impact in the CL, and have been regularly getting outclassed by Europe's elites. If you base it on trophies and results, United haven't delivered.

Lost to Bayern in 2010 (Quarter finals) , outclassed by Barca in 2011 (Final) , out in the group stages in 2012, taken out by Madrid in 2013 (last 16), lost to Bayern (quarter finals), not in CL (2015), out in the group stages (2016), not in CL (2017), lost to Sevilla in 2018 (last 16).

That's very poor for a supposed "top team". One final where they had a relatively easy route facing Marseilla, out of form Chelsea, and Schalke who had a 34-year old Raul up front.

As I said last decade, United is by the far most successful English team in 2008 to 2018 (decade) 3 EPL titles, missing out on two leagues by point and goal difference+, 2 UCL finalist & 1 UCL, Europa League, 3 League cup, 1 FA. UEFA ranking had United at 3rd most successful, we just fell out 5 years ago, Real Madrid had a longer period shit season than us, we're into 5 years and don't look like title contenders but will get back there slowly.

 

[Tommy]

A follow-up to my post earlier in the thread about you finding success at the right time.

Back under Sir Alex, you guys had periods where you won pretty much everything... It was kinda boring, but at the same time, you had a team that really fought for wins, played some quality attacking football, and competed with the best teams Wenger & Mourinho have ever offered, as well as the best teams across Europe.

I used to tune in to watch you all the time. As a fan of football, something about watching United, as weird as it sounds, felt like the antidote (especially while we were under Roy Hodgson ).

But now, you're on +0 GD after 6 games... Football doesn't go to OT to thrive - It goes there to die. All rivalries aside, go back 10 years, and United would be one of the English teams I'd always watch. In 2018, I'd rather watch pretty much any other team.

 

[Kentonio]

As I said last decade, United is by the far most successful English team in 2008 to 2018 (decade) 3 EPL titles, missing out on two leagues by point and goal difference+, 2 UCL finalist & 1 UCL, Europa League, 3 League cup, 1 FA.

In that same period, Chelsea have 3 EPL titles, 2 UCL finalist & 1 UCL, Europa League, 1 League cup, 4 FA cups. I'd say we've been pretty equally successful.

 

[kaiser1]

Commercial success I will say Man Utd definitely top 3 with Barca and Madrid and a huge gap to the next set of teams

In current sporting success

Tier 1 Barcelona and Madrid (Though I think Madrid might drop to tier 2 post Ronaldo) - These 2 are always favorites to win the CL

Tier 2, Bayern Juventus, Atletico, PSG, City Liverpool. These teams are equal and can match each other on the field and with some good fortune can win the CL

Tier 3. Man Utd, Dortmund Chelsea, Napoli, Sevilla Spurs. For these teams to win the CL they need a LOT of good fortune in results and draws

 

[giorno]

In terms of "bigness", you're still clinging on at the top table in my opinion.

Size isn't everything though, as your mum assures me, it's how you perform that is important. Whose mum? All of your mums.

Not MY mum!

But anyways, you're not as big as you used to be. Used to be, if a player/manager dreamed to work in England, you were their dream choice. Now? You're at least second fiddle to City, which is gross when you think about it.

Lots of people didn't even expect you to be competitive this season. Your brand's and the PL's pretty much the only thing separating you from Milan atm...

 

[deafepl]

In that same period, Chelsea have 3 EPL titles, 2 UCL finalist & 1 UCL, Europa League, 1 League cup, 4 FA cups. I'd say we've been pretty equally successful.

This is something we can agree on this so if we were average for next decade or so, we'd be risking becoming the Liverpool but 5 years is not enough to get United off the top, Real Madrid stayed top despite failing in Europe for 7 years or so and Barcelona dominated the league, they first qualified for quarter-final since 2004-5 and win league in fashion style with record of points, GD+ and goal scored.

 

[Hazard Warning]

Commercially you’re still a giant but on the pitch you’re a bit of a joke club.

You went from a top 3 greatest manager of all time (in my opinion) to David Moyes then decided to appoint a dinosaur who was living off the reputation he forged in the 90s when he was an elite level manager. To compound your misery, you then hired another dinosaur who is living off his success from the 2000’s when he was one of the best managers in the world. Pretty sure these 3 things should mean your entire board need to look at themselves

You’ve somehow managed to spend close to £700m on players and are top 3 for wages in world football since Fergie retired to become a considerably worse team than you were.

Fortunately for you, all it will take is a shed load of money, which you have, and for you to hire a manager who actually understands how football is played at the moment and can coach proactive football for you to become a force once more.

People will harp on about finishing second last season but really and truly you won nothing playing awful football, what is there to like?

Football is ultimately in the entertainment industry and if I’m being objective, out of all the “big clubs” in Europe, watching Man Utd games is the least entertaining for me at the moment.

 

[padr81]

As a club one of the biggest in the world, easily the biggest in England.

As a team, I would say a little off City, Liverpool and Chelsea, but mainly because you've bought strangely and instead of doing like City and buying an my £50m players, you've spent on Pogba and Lukaku and underspent on others, completely messed up your fullback situation (like Pep's first season). Not far away but with some gaping holes. Man for man you match all 3 in most places but have those aforementioned holes, plus you seem to have zero confidence and dare I say panic a little when the going gets tough.

Also you've been a tad unlucky, Pogba has been great and not so great. Lukaku has been pretty consistent, Bailly has been up and down and injured after a promising start and Sanchez looks practically retired something no one could have predicted.

 

[RoyH1]

I’m a United fan, but also someone who has lived in 3 continents and has some perspective despite my fandom. And I have to say that our claim to be the biggest is only sustainable when looking at the commercial side of things. When it comes to trophies and football reputation we’re far behind the Spanish giants.

Calculating the size of a fandom is always a tricky thing. Your choice of data is always going to have to be narrowed down and in that process you ignore other factors. For example, Barsa and Madrid have much more followers on social media, but that doesn’t mean that there aren’t more ‘older’ or less media savvy fans that follow other teams.
TV ratings are a good metric, but again, local tv deals, availability and time differences play a role.

We’re huge, no matter the method you choose to measure it, but we need to start winning again soon to capture the imagination of neutrals again.

 

[Sayros]

Obligatory not an oppo fan caveat, and I'd definitely rank United in the Top 3 overall!

1. Real Madrid: Always have been the #1, despite what other clubs claim, and will likely retain that spot for the foreseeable future — that's what I truly believe, even as a United supporter. While they don't always top the money league they're consistently there or thereabouts, they have a massive fanbase across the world — particularly in Spanish speaking countries or rather South America in general (which is the spiritual home of football with Europe), and their history puts them in another dimension: 13 European Cups and they've always been miles ahead of the chasing pack aside from the mid 2000s where it looked like Milan might catch up with them, 33 domestic league titles, 19 Copa del Rey — with 4 Top 10 players of all time playing for them at one point or the other — Puskás and Di Stéfano back in the day, Ronaldo for the Galácticos, and recently Cristiano — and that's aside from Figo and Zidane and Gento and Carlos and Laudrup and so forth.

2. Barcelona (by a whisker): A decade ago, they were on the same level as or even a bit behind Bayern and United and and Milan and Juventus, but the era of Messi and Xaviesta has propelled them to the second spot (which shows how rapidly the landscape can change even in the elite tier following special, generation-defining turn of events) — they've grown massively in terms of their fanbase (especially in the younger demographic — which leads to more sustainable growth), added 9 league titles to their haul as well as 4 European Cups, have the biggest stadium in European club football, captured the imagination of most football aficionados in recent years with what was arguably the most beautiful and best club team of all time, and a great history wrt. players: ranging for Cruyff and Neeskens to Romário and Laudrup and Stoichkov and Ronaldo and Rivaldo and Messi, and so forth.

3. Manchester United (decent lead over the rest of the best): I think what sets United apart from comparable clubs like Bayern or Milan or Juventus and Liverpool (who're all great on paper) is that it's always had a unique and compelling romantic charm — and has been loved across the world since the Busby era, even in periods where we weren't successful — whereas if you look at Milan now for instance, their legacy has eroded rapidly and their following/finances/gravitas have diminished by a significant degree just a decade after they were dominant in the Champions League. United has always had a massive following because of its story and been more erosion-proof — drawing people to packed stadiums or their television screens, magnetic players like Best and Beckham — who made United extremely “famous” — more so than the chasing pack, maximized their revenue with the Premier League era and growing popularity of football in English speaking developing countries (consistently towards the top and #1 right now) on top of benefiting from the halo effect of the Ferguson era — which lingers to this day in a myriad ways.

Then the 4 giants, Bayern (suffer a bit because of the league they play in and traditionally didn't have a massive following in the international markets despite their success), Juventus (they've always been a bit dour and less fashionable outside of Italy than Milan though Ronaldo might change that especially considering their recent success relative to Milan), Liverpool and Milan (historic European powerhouses with great legacies and massive international followings) in a broad sense — one club might pull ahead at times, but they are on a comparable plane if you brush with a broad stroke, though Milan are in danger of falling a bit off the pace despite their illustrious history. And then Internazionale and Ajax.

As for the here and now, United is definitely the gold standard for money and following — but unfortunately, not in terms of on-the-field organisation or decision-making or player personnel or recent success if you consider the post-Fergie era in isolation (it's important to make that distinction because including his time dilutes a more grounded present day assessment). There are 4 cleat-cut elite clubs right now: Madrid, Barcelona, Juventus and Bayern — probably in that order — gargantuan institutions and successful on the pitch. United can claim a spot in that that bracket if we improve rapidly because the institution itself has all the tools and massive appeal, so the onus is on the decision-makers and the manager(s) and the players, but in a purely footballing sense I'm afraid the two petro-clubs have pulled ahead in the short term, and Atlético can definitely stake a claim even though it's a much smaller institution. Too early to tell with Liverpool — definitely on the rise, but I'll withhold judgement for a bit longer.

As an outsider growing up in France and then moving to the USA, not necessarily opposition fan since I don't really have a club allegiance, I completely agree with your post, almost word for word. It's obviously harder to see United right now in the top three, but that's because they are in recovery mode from an incredible era by SAF and that can take years, even decades. Let's see how Barcelona does when Messi retires, they may go through something very similar to United in a few years, especially with their board.

 

[gaucho_10]

Are we still in the Real, Barca, Bayern echelon?

You're not because you suck on the pitch, but considering you're Man United all you need is one great season to be there again.

 

[giorno]

Historically:

1. Real Madrid
2. Milan
3. Barcelona
4. Bayern Munich
5. United/Liverpool/Juventus

Manchester United probably have the highest potential out of any club in the world. You are the most popular club in the most marketable league. The Glazers and the incompetent Woodward are keeping you down though.

10 years ago Barcelona doesn't even make the top 5. Things can change so quickly. Even financially, if you go another 10 years being a mess you might see City, Chelsea and Liverpool overtake you. You'll still have history over City and Chelsea though, for what that's worth

 

[Kentonio]

This is something we can agree on this so if we were average for next decade or so, we'd be risking becoming the Liverpool but 5 years is not enough to get United off the top, Real Madrid stayed top despite failing in Europe for 7 years or so and Barcelona dominated the league, they first qualified for quarter-final since 2004-5 and win league in fashion style with record of points, GD+ and goal scored.

You definitely haven't fallen off the top yet, and if the club make the right moves in the next couple of years I'd expect you to be straight back up there challenging for the title/CL every year. It's going to need the club to make the right moves though, because there's only so long you can be away when several other teams are pushing ahead. Madrid only really had Barca to worry about, you guys have City, Chelsea and Liverpool.

 

[HTG]

Oh yeah ofcourse, but as a football fan I don't really look at it like that.

United are the biggest club in the world objectively.

How? I’d say most people outside of the UK would say it’s Real. I actually think basically everyone I know would say so. Real just hover above anyone else. I don’t think there’s any other club with a pull, a legacy and a respect that comes close to Real.

Modric - Casemiro - Kroos

Who does Pogba bench?

I would even seriously question whether Pogba would bench anyone out of:

James - Martinez - Thiago

Martínez doesn’t even start for us. Pogba would definitely play for us. I think he’s better than every midfielder we have, except for Thiago of course.

 

[ypsipeos]

You're better than Chelsea? Lol
We've won the league twice in 5 seasons and you think you're better than us because you were second last season right?
Funniest thing is you think you're no better than Athletico Madrid but you're better than Chelsea.

Did you read me?

"We maybe are better than Tottenham, Chelsea, Napoli and Dortmund."
Do you know what maybe means? Be patient. Your ban is coming. Enjoy the ride.

 

[KirkDuyt]

How? I’d say most people outside of the UK would say it’s Real. I actually think basically everyone I know would say so. Real just hover above anyone else. I don’t think there’s any other club with a pull, a legacy and a respect that comes close to Real.
/QUOTE]
Thought United had the most fans? Might be wrong.

 

[Shangler]

It’s a bit of a multifaceted question, isn’t it.

Off the pitch, you guys are undoubtedly in the top 3. If you take into account history, commercial success, branding etc.

On the pitch, it’s a very different story. Not been close to winning the league since Ferguson left and I can’t see in happening in the next few years. I’m not sure many teams would fear getting drawn against United the CL. To top it off, you play some fire football with little sense of identity.

To sum it up, massive club, average team.

 

[HTG]

@KirkDuyt
That‘s possible. But it’s hardly the only metric by which to measure the size of a club. You could make that same point by pointing out that Bayern are the sports team with most members worldwide, thus they are the biggest sports team there is. It’s just one of many aspects there is.
Real are bigger by basically any other metric there is.

 

[Speedy30]

No denying that as a club, you're still the biggest in the land but on the pitch, you're dreadful.

I used to (begrudgingly) enjoy watching Utd play as I'm a lover of football and the stuff you served up under Ferguson was great (even though the last minute winners used to break me).

Nowadays, I only watch if you I'm expecting you to be beaten. There's no joy in the football you play and it's a bit like we were in the final season of Houllier where going to Anfield became a chore.

 

[FootballHQ]

I've always ranked Real Madrid as biggest club in the world.

Man. United are up there of course in the Munich/Juve/Barca range just below as you obviously have ridiculous support worldwide and a huge trophy cabinet.

I think you've just lost that ruthlessness you had in the Fergie era, giving mediore players like Fellani new contracts, not having that many comeback when you go behind in games, not scoring much anymore in the 90th minute or beyond.

Maybe little things but they all add up to points. Take away 10-15 from not doing those little things anymore and you get to your position of just being in the top 4.

 

[Moby]

Big team in the 60's, nothing team in the 70's and 80's, big team in 90's and 00's. Currently not sure what to rate them as.

We still have two PL titles and one CL final appearance in the 10s which puts us second behind City domestically. Of course that was all under Fergie and things have changed since.

 

[Pink Moon]

Huge club. IMO the biggest in the world but a terrible football side right now.

There's too many average footballers who don't belong at a club this size.

 

[Foxbatt]

It is among the best brands and that is it now. The football has been dire for a long time. When Moyes destroyed the club, it has been a downward spiral. Zlatan's ego took us a long way and with his departure Jose has been found out. He does not have top players he had at Porto, Chelsea, Inter or at Real. Apart from Pogba and DeGea, the rest are ordinary players and some would probably play a lot better under a Manager who trusts them more and a Manager who plays better technical football.
Jose is not going to play attractive football and it is better the Club puts a long term plan in place and get a young Manager who can take us forward in the long term.

 

[Aidan Azar]

We still have two PL titles and one CL final appearance in the 10s which puts us second behind City domestically. Of course that was all under Fergie and things have changed since.

3rd. Chelsea are the most successful team of the 10's so far.

3x PL 3x FA Cup 1x CL 1x EL 1x League Cup