Oppo fans — where do you rank Man United?

[WhoAreYou?]

First, I want to say I am from Spain so I'm biased, and also my English isnt the best, so please excuse some mistakes!

Off the pitch I rate Man.U as one of the biggest in the club; I would say it is a draw between Real Madrid and Man.U, followed closely by Juventus, Barcelona, Bayern and lastly PSG etc.

On the pitch I only look at past season and the current season. I have to be honest and say I dont rate Man.U as a elite european club anymore. At this moment, for me, you are behind the likes of Sevilla, Atletico Madrid, Napoli, Dortmund. I just dont rate the squad players at all. Only De Gea and Pogba are word class players and even then Pogba is being used wrongly. I did believe when Mourinho said he would want a lot of Sevilla players in his team. The quality just isnt good enough, but I think the EPL playing style is hiding this a bit: where a more agressive style of play will grind out wins, but technically it really is far from good. I think at most you would draw against earlier mentioned teams, and if you have a lucky day you would win. Against the elite teams in Europe you stand no chance imho.

 

[Tommy]

First, I want to say I am from Spain so I'm biased, and also my English isnt the best, so please excuse some mistakes!

Off the pitch I rate Man.U as one of the biggest in the club; I would say it is a draw between Real Madrid and Man.U, followed closely by Juventus, Barcelona, Bayern and lastly PSG etc.

On the pitch I only look at past season and the current season. I have to be honest and say I dont rate Man.U as a elite european club anymore. At this moment, for me, you are behind the likes of Sevilla, Atletico Madrid, Napoli, Dortmund. I just dont rate the squad players at all. Only De Gea and Pogba are word class players and even then Pogba is being used wrongly. I did believe when Mourinho said he would want a lot of Sevilla players in his team. The quality just isnt good enough, but I think the EPL playing style is hiding this a bit: where a more agressive style of play will grind out wins, but technically it really is far from good. I think at most you would draw against earlier mentioned teams, and if you have a lucky day you would win. Against the elite teams in Europe you stand no chance imho.

I don't disagree with much of your post, but are PSG really THAT big off the pitch? Is that how they're viewed in Spain?

 

[Castia]

Huge club. IMO the biggest in the world but a terrible football side right now.

There's too many average footballers who don't belong at a club this size.

/thread

Honestly, this is spot on and all that needs to be said.

 

[MysticRed]

Behemoth of a club off the pitch.

On the pitch they are not far off terrible in terms of expectations. They have so much dead wood that needs moving on - but like flogging a dead horse. If you were a Man Utd player would you want to move onto a mid table club likely for less money?? They’ve got a massive rebuilding project to do and they may need to start at the top with the CEO and manager. Personally they’ve wasted vast amounts of money on players and wages which are not typical Utd signings of old.

Don’t hate me. But truthfully I as a Liverpool fan I would only want De Gea and Pogba from your team, and Pogba just for his world class days which need to be more regular.

 

[zkap]

In terms of overall greatness, United are up there with the biggest clubs in the world and a few years of not winning the league or the Champions League cannot change that. It takes a long time to get to this level and it's not something that just goes away when another club assembles a better team. Everything counts: history with many great players, trophy cabinet, fanbase, finances, status and image, marketing... United is one of those teams where everything was or still is mythical: the shirt, the stadium, the names on the pitch, having the greatest manager of all time, it all does the trick.

For me, one of the most important moments of your recent history was that fax machine incident. I always thought that big clubs cannot afford to sell their best players to other big clubs because it affects their status in the worst possible way. Look at what happened to Arsenal and Milan, they essentially became feeder clubs to the elite. Milan agreed to sell Zlatan Ibrahimović and Thiago Silva in the same package to PSG. Thierry Henry left Arsenal for Barça in order to win the Champions League, and this was after losing the Champions League final to Barça, so that was in a time when Arsenal were still competing. I always thought these things were a sign of weakness, as it also shows how these clubs aren't doing enough to secure long-term success. Keeping hold of De Gea means much more than just having a world class goalie on the team. Being able to lure Paul Pogba to United without the prospect of Champions League football is really something, too. Likewise, Bayern keeping Ribery when he was crying out for a transfer to Real Madrid signaled their intent very strongly, as well. As opposed to this, Dortmund go out of their way to lose all of their important players to Bayern, and it shows.

One of these days you'll sign a better manager who will be able to play modern football, and you'll see a different side of your team. Others have already mentioned how fast things can change in football and I don't think United have too much to worry about. I think that you are well set up to get back to the top of European football, because you have all the ingredients. Lack of titles is not the biggest problem you can have, it's how you carry it.

 

[Bergman]

10 years ago Barcelona doesn't even make the top 5. Things can change so quickly. Even financially, if you go another 10 years being a mess you might see City, Chelsea and Liverpool overtake you. You'll still have history over City and Chelsea though, for what that's worth

Things can change quickly. But in that period, Barcelona have won 3 UCLs and boasted 3 or 4 players in conversations for the greatest players of all time in their positions. United havent had that many, probably in their history.

 

[Zehner]

You've got to differentiate. Your brand is still among the absolute top dogs. But I think you are perceived as a bit dusty and old fashioned. I don't think you evolved at all since SAF retired and even under him in his last years, you weren't really up to date concerning new tactical developments etc. So from a players perspective, and I guess that's the idea of the thread, if I wanted to win big trophies I wouldn't go to United. And in contrast to City, Liverpool. or Chelsea, I don't get the impression that you are currently turning things around or adjusting to the modern game. Your squad is still "designed" like ten years ago with big, strong, direct guys being your key signings (Pogba, Lukaku, ...) while technically gifted ones have a hard time (Martial, Mata, ...).

You've got the best football forum in the world though.

 

[Zehner]

There's not a team on this planet where Pogba and De Gea wouldn't play week in week out

This obsession with De Gea is also something I find weird. He's pretty damn good of course but outside of this forum I've never heard anyone suggesting he's the best in the world etc. Definitely on the level Neuer reached pre-injury. You've got a habit of glorifying your goalies, it was the same with VdS and Schmeichel.

Pogba is a different story. I personally would never choose this type of midfielder for a top team but someone who ensures domination and possession like Kroos, Modric, Verratti, Thiago etc.

If I could choose players from this United team, I'd probably go with De Gea, Martial, Matic, Rashford and/or Lukaku.

 

[MysticRed]

Its true, it’s the best football forum! Good wit and well balanced opinions than most of the one-eyed football club forums. Maybe we need a forum for best football forums!

 

[Butch Cassidy]

Your current problem(s) seems to stem from no coherent managerial strategy (post Ferguson) and also the state in which Ferguson left the squad. There appears to have been no succession planning either on or off the pitch and you are now reaping what has been sown.

You'll be back sooner rather than later - far too many resources not to be - but I don't think Mourinho is your man. I don't believe all the issues can be laid at his door, but he seemingly doesn't do long term, and I believe you need a manager who does. Who that is, I have no idea, mind!

 

[HNK55]

This obsession with De Gea is also something I find weird. He's pretty damn good of course but outside of this forum I've never heard anyone suggesting he's the best in the world etc. Definitely on the level Neuer reached pre-injury. You've got a habit of glorifying your goalies, it was the same with VdS and Schmeichel.

Pogba is a different story. I personally would never choose this type of midfielder for a top team but someone who ensures domination and possession like Kroos, Modric, Verratti, Thiago etc.

If I could choose players from this United team, I'd probably go with De Gea, Martial, Matic, Rashford and/or Lukaku.

De Gea has saved United about 6 points this season alone. The guy is quality! I agree about Pogba though, still dont think he justifies his price tag and rarely strings together more than 2-3 good games.
To answer OP, United as a brand are top 2 but in terms of football they arent very good at all. Any top team in the world should be winning the title at least once in the last 5 years. That is why I cannot rate Liverpool as a top side.

 

[Arruda]

Are we still in the Real, Barca, Bayern echelon?

I'd say definitely yes.

You have been weak in football terms for quite a while but you don't get out of that echelon that easily.

 

[Zehner]

De Gea has saved United about 6 points this season alone. The guy is quality! I agree about Pogba though, still dont think he justifies his price tag and rarely strings together more than 2-3 good games.
To answer OP, United as a brand are top 2 but in terms of football they arent very good at all. Any top team in the world should be winning the title at least once in the last 5 years. That is why I cannot rate Liverpool as a top side.

All true but if you read the posters hear it sounds like there is no doubt whatsoever that he's the best goalie in the world - and I think that Neuer claims that title quite clearly. De Gea is on the level below that together with Courtois, Oblak, Ter Stegen, etc. These guys regularly save their teams points, too. After all a world class keeper is expected to do it every once in a while.

I just think you tend to glorify your goal keepers a little bit too much. Van der Saar exemplarily was never seen among the absolute top keepers in Germany during that time. And Schmeichel was absolutely great but if you read people's opinions on him in this forum, it sounds like he was undeniably the best in the world and may as well have been the greatest in history.

 

[GNRfan]

Man Utd are definitely one of the big clubs of the world. In and around Barcelona and Real. Certainly above Liverpool right now in terms of global reach, but we are getting there.

I don't believe you have the right manager, though, I don't think Jose suits the club. Should have stuck with Van Gaal for a bit longer until another manager other than Jose was available.

Mind you, Fergie will be always hard to beat, quality manager, probably top 3 alongside Shanks and Paisley.

 

[Grinner]

I've noticed that yanks tend to claim to like Liverpool now and not Man Utd as was the fashion for the last 20 years. I guess even they know crap footy when they see it. Like @Tommy said above, the only other team I used to watch was Man Utd because it was always entertaining. I don't watch your games anymore.

 

[wub1234]

United will always be one of the biggest clubs in the world. That is baked into the cake. However, when I was growing up Liverpool won everything, and United went nearly 30 years without winning the league.

That is unlikely to happen now, but it's not inconceivable. Ask Liverpool.

 

[njred]

United will always be one of the biggest clubs in the world. That is baked into the cake. However, when I was growing up Liverpool won everything, and United went nearly 30 years without winning the league.

That is unlikely to happen now, but it's not inconceivable. Ask Liverpool.

You won with the old mgr in 93 and kept winning till 2013. That's the difference. Sometimes you didn't play all that well, but the fear factor was there installed in every other team by your boss. Honestly, he could come out off the stands right now and just stand there and you would win more games just from his presence. For all of the tactical prowess that Jose has he could never duplicate SAF's influence on the outcome of a game. When Arsenal and then Chelsea went on their runs of success united were always going to return to glory because of your mgr. It seemed it would never end and the nightmare would continue for us forever. Believe me, when he retired it was like a cloud had lifted and the sun had come back out. Liverpool were like that in the 70s and 80s. No one was going to match them and it looked like never ending with Shanks,Paisley, and Kenny in charge. But it ended and still hasn't really come back. Maybe now who knows. I think the impact of SAF leaving cannot be underestimated. Jose is not the answer.

 

[charlenefan]

This obsession with De Gea is also something I find weird. He's pretty damn good of course but outside of this forum I've never heard anyone suggesting he's the best in the world etc. Definitely on the level Neuer reached pre-injury. You've got a habit of glorifying your goalies, it was the same with VdS and Schmeichel.

Pogba is a different story. I personally would never choose this type of midfielder for a top team but someone who ensures domination and possession like Kroos, Modric, Verratti, Thiago etc.

If I could choose players from this United team, I'd probably go with De Gea, Martial, Matic, Rashford and/or Lukaku.

It's not just this forum, it's widely recognised in England he's the best in the world, just like in your country you don't look past Neuer

 

[LilyWhiteSpur]

Massive club, still up there as a brand and a business, but I’m afraid on the pitch they aren’t the club they were in the Fergie era and the owners don’t seem to care much about getting back to that level.

 

[GatoLoco]

I don't disagree with much of your post, but are PSG really THAT big off the pitch? Is that how they're viewed in Spain?

They are partly, I mean, if they were not big off the pitch they would have never assembled the squad they have now.

 

[GatoLoco]

As a Business, top 2-3.

As a team, top 10-15.

Is there a direct relationship between both as a general basis? That would make an interesting debate.

 

[RoyH1]

Is there a direct relationship between both as a general basis? That would make an interesting debate.

It's be really interesting to see someone do a serious number crunching analysis on the relationship between the two.

My own experience based belief is that sustained success on the pitch increases the likelihood of success as a business, but it has be properly capitalized upon.

The opposite is also true. Being phenomenally succesful in marketing the team guarantees your economic foundation to be competitive at the highest level, but if you're shite at identifying and developing footballing and managerial talent, success will be limited.

 

[Don _ Conte]

There's pretty much no debating how big United are off the pitch as a brand, they are the biggest

But taking out the Brand focusing on football related discussion such as the style of football, winning trophies, current influence, memorable recent moments etc... since Fergie left united have not challenged for either Major trophy its that simple. United as a club will always be huge and there influence will always reach far that is something that can never change and that's not my point but in pure current footballing terms how can they be discussed as one of the biggest footballing teams, when they haven't competed for either the Prem or Champions league in 5/6 years.

If Barca now did the same due to Messi leaving, and in the post Messi era they had achieved the same as United, discussions about them would be the same also.

 

[FutbolFan]

Yesterday, I was explaining the whole EPL thing to my American buddy. I introduced United as the biggest club in England that is being poorly managed right now.

I think it is inevitable that with the financial strength of united, they will be back soon among big titles. Although I dont think 1 club can now dominate continually in the modern era.

 

[Chip Butty]

Is there a direct relationship between both as a general basis? That would make an interesting debate.

As a thirds split it may directly proportional, though its more of a feel thing, than a statistical assumption.

 

[Major]

Yeah, because the most profitable and valuable football club in the world will be banned by UEFA for failing FFP because they can't break even

Honestly what a hyperbolic and frankly daft claim.

@MaxiPaxi why do you care what internet oppos think of us?

You think that's the only reason why AC Milan, the Italian giant with 7 UCLs and numerous Serie A titles, are currently shite? You must have been born in 2005.
Ac Milan were a bigger club than United both commercial wise and performance on the pitch in the 90's and early 2000s when the Serie A was the super power league in Europe. They got complacent, banked on their history, neglected their youth setup and failed to properly replace their aging stars.
When the serie A lost its appeal to the world to England and Spain, so did the money. The board's mismanagement of the club also did not help and had severe financial issues until they were bought recently.

Bottom line is, they became complacent thinking you can always stay on top because of history and before they realized, theyve dug a hole for themselves.

 

[GhastlyHun]

Looking at the football side excluding business metrics, I'd say United just make the top 10 in Europe (looking at international and national competitions) over the last few years. Those would be (ordered by country) Atletico, Barcelona, Real, Sevilla (serial Europa winners), Bayern, PSG, Juventus, City, Chelsea, United.

 

[Major]

Did you read me?

"We maybe are better than Tottenham, Chelsea, Napoli and Dortmund."
Do you know what maybe means? Be patient. Your ban is coming. Enjoy the ride.

Ban? Really? So people get banned here for stating the obvious?

maybe? What's that? You made an analysis which looks like it was base on performances in recent years and you claim you're “maybe" better than the team who won the most league title in that period? Maybe you're better than City don't you think? They've only won 1 league title since Fergie right? I mean when you're maybe better than the team who won it twice et all.

 

[Fridge chutney]

You must have been born in 2005

Why? Because I disagree with your bizarre assessment?

We've shown since SAF retired that we are intent on financing the replacement of our aging stars (many replacements didn't work out, that's another story) and we still pump tons of resources into scouting and academy, so how are we neglecting our academy? We have arguably the best academy in England in terms of PL output. United also don't have severe financial issues, we are the most profitable club in the world, in the most profitable league. All of the parallels you drew with AC Milan can be picked apart.

Is Mourinho the right fit? Maybe not, but that's a different discussion.

Come up with real parallels before you go all ad hominem with posters here.

 

[the_irish123]

United is not a Milan because it still has crazy money and ability to attract the best players. But I think a change beggining from the board to the manager and maybe even ownership has to happen so you don't become Milanized.

 

[nePhantom]

Largest club in England, and second in the world (with Barcelona coming in almost at a tie).
I honestly think it’s the management and board. You guys were nightmarish to play against with SAF (who IMO was one of the if not the greatest manager ever).
I’m not a big fan of Jose, and he has you playing poorly and IMO recruiting poorly (if he has control). I’m kind of shocked that UTD weren’t in for Sarri before he’d gone to Chelsea.
I think UTD is on a slight decline, they need to get out of their funk. The infrastructure is there, the supporters, the global presence. But underachieving year after year may catch up if it continues.
Plus if I was a UTD supporter I’d be angry with how boring and negative Mou is making you guys play.

 

[JamiePollocksOG]

I think this all began when Fergie won his last title with United and the summer where Moyes was put in charge and the squad was not invested in.

The Glaziers had already been scrimping and saving before this, but this is wjere United's board allowed the likes of City and Spurs to catch them up on the field.

There is no doubting that Fergie is the best manager of my generation, but had he been backed by the board i dont think United would have the competition they do have today.

If you look back at some of the players Fergie signed, from GK's like Schmeichel, EVS, defenders like Stam and Ferdinand, Full backs like Irwin and Neville, midfielders like Scholes, Keane, Wingers like Beckham, Kanchelskis and Giggs, and forwards like RVN and RVP then you have to ask how many of todays players would have got into those teams of the better United sides.

The answer might be 1 maybe 2.

United to get back where they were would need a huge summer of spending.

 

[TheeAma]

You won with the old mgr in 93 and kept winning till 2013. That's the difference. Sometimes you didn't play all that well, but the fear factor was there installed in every other team by your boss. Honestly, he could come out off the stands right now and just stand there and you would win more games just from his presence. For all of the tactical prowess that Jose has he could never duplicate SAF's influence on the outcome of a game. When Arsenal and then Chelsea went on their runs of success united were always going to return to glory because of your mgr. It seemed it would never end and the nightmare would continue for us forever. Believe me, when he retired it was like a cloud had lifted and the sun had come back out. Liverpool were like that in the 70s and 80s. No one was going to match them and it looked like never ending with Shanks,Paisley, and Kenny in charge. But it ended and still hasn't really come back. Maybe now who knows. I think the impact of SAF leaving cannot be underestimated. Jose is not the answer.

You always had this feeling that at any point in time they would come back, even when Chelsea won the league under Jose first spell you were just wondering, what is SAF cooking up then bam they started to win again. You would be leading them 3-0 and then bam you lost 3-4 You couldn't write it. They were feared when SAF left we all rejoice the great oppressor has left.

 

[ypsipeos]

Ban? Really? So people get banned here for stating the obvious?

maybe? What's that? You made an analysis which looks like it was base on performances in recent years and you claim you're “maybe" better than the team who won the most league title in that period? Maybe you're better than City don't you think? They've only won 1 league title since Fergie right? I mean when you're maybe better than the team who won it twice et all.

No, you 'll get banned because of your non-existent will to discuss.

 

[Kentonio]

Looking at the football side excluding business metrics, I'd say United just make the top 10 in Europe (looking at international and national competitions) over the last few years. Those would be (ordered by country) Atletico, Barcelona, Real, Sevilla (serial Europa winners), Bayern, PSG, Juventus, City, Chelsea, United.

You'd put United ahead of Liverpool at the moment purely on the football side?

 

[GhastlyHun]

You'd put United ahead of Liverpool at the moment purely on the football side?

In terms of success over the last years. Looking at this season only, certainly not.

 

[heub]

For me, Manchester United is and always will be the biggest and best club in the world. There's no doubt about it and i laugh at anyone denying that.

But in general, the topic "size of a football club", has a lot of different aspects.
What makes a club "big"?

Regarding money, you could look at the Deloitte Money League for arguments. Here are the revenues without transfer fee:

1. United 676 m€
2. Real Madrid 674 m€
3. Barcelona 648 m€
4. Bayern 587 m€
5. City 560 m€

So United has a point. Its the biggest club financially and the biggest brand in the world of football. But you could argue that Real and Barcelona are not far away or that Bayern makes more money than anyone in sponsoring and merchandising, and only loses in TV broadcast money.

Regarding success, there is no denying that Real Madrid is the biggest club in the world. 13 european cups, thats more than the next two clubs combined.

Regarding supporters, you could look at TV ratings. Man Utd is the most followed club in the most followed and best marketed league in the world.
Or you could look at social media followers:

1. Real Madrid C.F. — 201.9 million
2. FC Barcelona — 190.4 million
3. Manchester United — 114.8 million
4. Chelsea FC — 72.2 million
5. Bayern Munich — 65.7 million

Here Real Madrid has a point, again. The two spanish giants have a huge supporters base all aroung the world, while United has a lot of fans in asia or, thanks to the language barrier, in northern america.

Or you could define the term "football club" in a traditional way. While United isnt a football club anymore, owned overseas like most english teams, other european giants are still "a club". Real Madrid is owned by the club members, as are Barcelona or Bayern.

Here are the biggest clubs in the world regarding club membership:

1. Bayern 290k
2. Benfica 184k
3. Sporting 160k
4. Schalke 156k
5. Dortmund 154k


So there are a lot of different ways to discuss the topic "size of a club". You could argue that Milan is still a huge club dur to their history. Or that PSG is now a huge club because of their future.

At the end it always depends on who you ask. For Real Madrid supporters, Real Madrid is the biggest club in the world. For West Brom fans, West Brom is the one and only. For Boca Juniors Fans, it always will be Boca.

There just isnt a general answer.

 

[LoneStar]

This may not go down to well here, but:

Utd is a top club financially at the level of RM, Barca, Bayern etc. Not by footballing metric though. Even the league cup, and EL titles recently were very fortunate. Goal was incorrectly disallowed in the LC final. In the EL, got outplayed by Vigo and very fortunate to go through. Then met Ajax in the final, when in most other seasons recently it's been Seville or Atletico Madrid who would have been massively harder opponents.

Hiring Mourinho was a mistake, he's burnt out and plays dire route one football and relies too much on veterans and physical power. Was very surprised a club of Utd's standing went near him after his treatment of Eva Carneiro and the way things went down in his last season with us generally.

Imo, Utd has lost it's way with the leveraged buyout by the Glazers, and the the continual focus on the commercial side, new sponsors and new shiny big money signings. Utd used to play and develop British / Irish players and then only sign the best to supplement it. I don't see Utd being at the top on the pitch until a proper footballing philosophy is developed. At the moment there is just a commercial one.

Disagree. Chelsea are one of the best examples of having no set footballing philosophy and winning so many titles and cups.

Also, with so many clubs competing for English talent and them being so expensive, it is very hard for any PL club to have many talented English players anymore.

Maybe Jose isn't the best manager we could have hired, but what you say about the EL trophy is wrong imo. You can only beat what is in front of you. Look at Madrid in the CL, they had a lot of luck and some easy ties which helped them win.

 

[Mb194dc]

Disagree. Chelsea are one of the best examples of having no set footballing philosophy and winning so many titles and cups.

Also, with so many clubs competing for English talent and them being so expensive, it is very hard for any PL club to have many talented English players anymore.

Maybe Jose isn't the best manager we could have hired, but what you say about the EL trophy is wrong imo. You can only beat what is in front of you. Look at Madrid in the CL, they had a lot of luck and some easy ties which helped them win.

I think we've definitely had the a philosophy since Roman came in 04/05 and it's only changed this season. We've been a physical counter attacking team with a target man focal point, firstly Drogba then Costa. We would sit deep play with a low block, never too focused on possession, effective football, happy to ceed the ball to teams like Barca, defend and hit them on the break. This style suited Terry, Lampard etc a lot. I actually think peak Terry would struggle to get in the team with how we're trying to play at the moment.

I'd like to see Utd develop their own players, rather than buying them. You've got some real quality young English players in the squad and some good prospects. Like our youth they actually need first team games to develop though. I've supported Chelsea since the early 90s and we've never really been able to develop our own youth players, always had some mercs in the squad. Not unusual for us.

I used to watch Utd especially in the 90s in the CL. That was a great team full of home grown talent. So I guess I associate Utd as being a team that is best when based on a homegrown core like that. Also South American players in particular seem to struggle for Utd, Forlan, Veron, Di Maria, now maybe Sanchez etc. Big money signings not the main answer imo.

Maybe a bit harsh on the trophies, your're right. Just trying to get across that I haven't rated Utd as world class club in the footballing sense since Fergie left.

 

[Klopper76]

@Tommy I used to secretly enjoy watching United as well. They were always entertaining and worth watching under Ferguson.

The 7-1 against Roma, Ronaldo's counter attacking goal against Arsenal (the one involving Park & Rooney), the comebacks etc. It all made for pretty entertaining viewing over the years, and it's not like Liverpool were ever doing much apart from the odd occasion.

They need to get an identity back and build from there.