OT EVACUATED | Device signed as having been recovered, could NOT be detected by sniffer dogs

Snowjoe

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if i pay a third party to do something for me i sure as feck don't pay another of my own guys to then do half the work for them. do we then pay for a checker checker to check the first check to account for human error?

like i say, beat the club with what stick you like, god knows there are currently shit loads of them, i don't think this is one of them.
I'm just shocked at the possibility of you being in charge of anyone to be honest.
 

redindian1987

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I think your missing my point.

Yes I can completely see why you would hire someone for their expertise. But this wasn't a training course in some empty warehouse, they were placing fake bombs around the stadium days before an event. You simply can't rely on a signed bit of paper, the worrying thing for me is, we obviously didn't request key information from this firm. If we can't agree on Utd sending someone round to check, surely you can see my point that at the very least we should have had a plan to where these guys were planting these fecking things.

IF we didn't have that information (and it appear we didn't) then in my opinion we are fecking idiots.
I'm sure there's a protocol in place; a checklist or something. Of course the club have somebody dealing with them. We're not going to have random people run around without some agreement on which areas they will have access to and what they will and will not do. It's not that the club would have given the firm complete freedom to do whatever they want.

Not being able to count? That's basic stuff. You expect some amount of competence. If we take your line of reasoning, every manager in the world at every job should constantly monitor their employees; it would be a nightmare to get stuff done.
 

starman

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And they say well we counted them all in but it does look like one of ours. You saying the club/police then take the risk? Maybe but I think they'd do a controlled explosion anyway.

We made some mistakes prior obviously but the handling of it after was top notch.
I would say take calculated measures. Obviously get everyone out is the first thing

But, i mean for example, there are 13 bombs being placed. Let say they were all placed on the back of toilet doors. There are, i dont know, there 1000 toilet cubicles in OT.
The club should have known exactly where the bombs were being place e.g bomb 5 -cubicle 832 etc.

So come match day, the bomb found, lets say was bomb 5, surprise, surprise is located in cubicle 832. Now it could have been a real bomb and be a massive coincidence being in the same cubicle out of 1000 possbilities, but someone in OT must have come to that conclusion of a error.
Or maybe they did, maybe the cock up was discovery instantly but as soon as the police were involved they took the action of total evacuation and the controlled explosion anyway, which would be their protocol
 
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SammyUnited_83

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I'm sure there's a protocol in place; a checklist or something. Of course the club have somebody dealing with them. We're not going to have random people run around without some agreement on which areas they will have access to and what they will and will not do. It's not that the club would have given the firm complete freedom to do whatever they want.

Not being able to count? That's basic stuff. You expect some amount of competence. If we take your line of reasoning, every manager in the world at every job should constantly monitor their employees; it would be a nightmare to get stuff done.
True.

Though if we knew where they were going surely we would know where these devices were.

What I would like to know is, did we know / request to know where they were planting these things.

IF we didn't then we fecked up, not saying it's entirely our fault and I thought we handled it well yesterday, I didn't sense any panic.

But for example, this link says it was missed pre game.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/footba...ubicle-7984717

If we knew where these things were then surely it should have been communicated to the staff.
 

SammyUnited_83

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I would say take calculated measures. Obviously get everyone out is the first thing

But, i mean for example, there are 13 bombs being placed. Let say they were all placed on the back of toilet doors. There are, i dont know, there 1000 toilet cubicles in OT.
The club should have known exactly where the bombs were being place e.g bomb 5 -cubicle 832 etc.

So come match day, the bomb found, lets say was bomb 5, surprise, surprise is located in cubicle 832. Now it could have been a real bomb and be a massive coincidence being in the same cubicle out of 1000 possbilities, but someone in OT must have come to that conclusion of a error.
Or maybe they did and the police took the action of total evacation and the controlled explosion anyway
That for me is the key point. Did we know where these things were?
 

starman

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That for me is the key point. Did we know where these things were?
I would say there are two answers:

1. No. They had no idea where they are being placed. Not checking they how many devices were being brought in and how many were brought out.

2. Yes, but as soon as the matter was passed to the police, the police had no option but to evacuate and conduct a controlled explosion

Either way the club is not entirely absorbed from any blame, there is definitely failures internally
 

rcoobc

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The club is not to blame but our procedures for dealing with external companies like this probably could be better.

I mean, and this is getting quite outlandish and movie scenarioish, but what if someone from this company is a nutjob and actually wanted to plant a bomb in the stadium as part of this training exercise and they get it in and it stays there because we just take their word they've cleared everything up.
Nail on head.

In a world where terrorists trained to fly a commercial airliner, it's complete negligence to let a company in planting fake bombs with seemingly no supervision from the club, at very least someone should have known where these were.
Supposedly, the sniifer dogs would have found it if it was a real bomb. According to the club, the sniffer dogs missed it because it had no explosive chemicals
 

hobbers

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I don't think the club would have been in any way involved with this exercise, other than literally letting this company and the dog handlers in to do their training.

Certainly wouldn't have been any stewards there, just the usual groundsmen and club security. But they would not have been involved in the training.
 

Ixion

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He added the device left behind had a small white label with "training aid" written on it and it was not concealed.

"There was something found, they dealt with it in the way they should have done. Whether they should have found it earlier is another issue"


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-36307246
 

montpelier

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very possibly done this one - it's a joke !!! which is quite :lol:, I think

''the bomb was going to blow up but Sir Alex Ferguson got into the face of the detonation clock & persuaded it to add on another eight minutes''
 

Red Defence

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Greater Manchester Police and Crime Commissioner Tony Lloyd earlier said: "This fiasco caused massive inconvenience to supporters who had come from far and wide to watch the match, wasted the time of huge numbers of police officers and the Army's bomb squad, and unnecessarily put people in danger, as evacuating tens of thousands of people from a football stadium is not without risk.

"Whilst this in no way demeans the professionalism of the police and stewards responsible for getting the fans out, or the supporters' calmness and co-operation during the evacuation, it is unacceptable that it happened in the first place."
Just about sums it up. United dealt with it as they should have done and as we all would have wanted them to, whereas the security firm were too sloppy in their work.

Considering the importance of their work with regard to the threats we face in the country this lapse in professionalism is particularly unacceptable. Makes one wonder...If they have been slack with these "training aids" what else have they been slack with. When so many lives are at risk every day it's important we use only the best security firms and the best staff. I know that sounds harsh but the risk of using lax firms is just a risk too far.
 

Judge Red

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While you'd have to be a bit mental to phone the number left on a bomb attached to a phone, you'd think they'd have at least Googled it or checked it with their records...

Either way, we live in a world where you can't even trust counter terrorist personnel not to be terrorists, so in that regard the responsibility is ultimately that of this moron who left it there. The club was put in an impossible situation with kick off minutes away from the discovery.
 

jojojo

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It sound like the structure is that United hire a security/dog team. They're on a regular contract with us, and are responsible for some aspects of stadium security. They, as part of training deliberately used a third party specialist company to set up some challenges.

The specialists forget to take their devices home, despite signing to say they had. The dog security team who hired them didn't go round with them and do a crosscheck afterwards, or they did but the specialist trainer had forgotten to tell them about that device, just like he forgot to take it home.

Because the device didn't contain active explosives the dogs didn't pick up anything when they did the pre-match stadium search.

The humans who did the search didn't notice it because it was on the back of the toilet door and people forget that doors have backs.

Is it United's fault? Well, yeah, they're in that chain. Whether because of who they hired or how they train them or how much time they give them to do the job. The ironic thing is that I can imagine the dog firm were acting under orders from United to have an external consultant/audit done to prove the team were in good shape.

I can imagine a few lawyers having a good feed on the back of this.
 

Sunny Jim

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No matter how you want to spin i think United's reputation is should not be affected. The whole thing showed how well organized the club is, how seriously we treat safety, how many layers of security we manage.

Unfortunate development but a valuable lesson for all clubs.
 

Member 5225

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You do know that being late for 2 games had ZERO to do with anything the club did right? I mean are we supposed to control London traffic, prevent other people from getting in accidents, then control where the cops direct the bus? Or are we supposed to control the West Ham fans? I mean come on, both those incidents were not caused by us.
Err we're the only club that has to deal with London traffic?!
Amateur
 

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Ps so they train the dogs with a device that isn't viable (hence couldn't be picked up with an actual dog search)? Am confused.
 

GlasgowRedz

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Ps so they train the dogs with a device that isn't viable (hence couldn't be picked up with an actual dog search)? Am confused.
I think the training was done for the benefit of the handlers and not the dogs, therefore no actual explosives were required for the exercise.
 

Lennon7

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Whoever deleted that post I was just winding him up, but imagine getting all ballsy and intimidating like that over nothing?
 

MrMarcello

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You answer my reply of 16:40 at 04:20, almost 12 hours later, with the benefit of hindsight! My whole point was that, at the time I wrote it, there had been absolutely no official statement or comment from the club, the police or any other "official" network, even the SKY pundits had been evacuated to the car park of OT. So, as I said in my message I would rather wait for confirmation than react to a one-off report from any TV network (American or otherwise), or Twitter blogger, that a "suspicious package" had been found. Turns out it wasn't a "package" anyway so I was proved to be right.
I don't spend my free time on this sight so I will respond when I login. But if proving yourself right is an absolute must then have at it. Insecure much?