Our biggest problem - managers, players, or owners?

Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by C'est Moi Cantona, Jun 2, 2019.

  1. Jun 3, 2019
    #41

    Shakesey Full Member

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    We have new contenders in "The Blame Game"!

    Samoa and Tokelau.

    On December 31st, 2011 (just when things started looking bleak for us), S&T switched to the western side of the date line.
  2. Jun 3, 2019
    #42

    Fosu-Mens Full Member

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    The fundamental and biggest issue, from a perspective that wants the club to perform on the pitch and win trophies: The owners. They do not care about what happens on the pitch, as long as the club performs financially. Woodward is employed by the owners and governs the club accordingly. Meaning that his loyalty is not towards the fans, but the owners. And his priority is to ensure that the club is financially healthy, not winning trophies or playing attractive football.

    Regarding transfers and important football-related decisions: We do not know who made what decisions. Was it the manager at that point, or was it the owners/Woodward?
  3. Jun 3, 2019
    #43

    Shalashaska New Member

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    This this, a million times this.

    I will never understand why they picked Moyes to be the man to rebuild and restart at United. He had no real history of being a squad builder, he was known for doing well with a limited squad which ironically would make him better suited to united now.
  4. Jun 3, 2019
    #44

    Rhyme Animal Modmins said "freeze" and I got numb

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    Utd's biggest problems are very, very simple...

    Nostalgia and Nepotism.

    Weed these out of the club and replace them with looking forward and meritocracy and the club will soon thrive again.
  5. Jun 3, 2019
    #45

    Foxbatt Full Member

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    I would now say Owners as they are the people who appoint people like Woodward to run the things. Now Woodward is very good on the commercial side of things but he should not be the one who makes decisions to buy players etc. He should be away from the footballing side of things.
    The managers for trying to be coaches. It shows that SAF was not actually coaching the team but was looking at the bigger picture.
    Players for not taking an effort.
  6. Jun 3, 2019
    #46

    Leftback99 Full Member

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    1. Short term - poor players in both quality and mentality.

    2. Long term - Woodward. Making things worse year by year with the lack of structure and knowledge in how to make the football side work.

    3. Long term - The Glazers aren't going to invest or make changes required to challenge the best.

    4. The manager - They are just the fall guy. Doomed to failure because the rest isn't up to scratch.
  7. Jun 3, 2019
    #47

    FujiVice Full Member

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    Owners. You can sack a manager, you can change a player, you cant change the owners, because they have final say.
  8. Jun 3, 2019
    #48

    Ekeke Full Member

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    Managers and owners. They've had lots of attempts at bringing in players and havent had good results. A bit harsh then to blame the players - they didnt choose the managers or owners. But the managers and owners chose them
  9. Jun 3, 2019
    #49

    hn4manunited Full Member

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    Because SAF is also old and old fashion. Ed is also old fashioned in the way he wants to run things. If he was a progressive football club CEO, he would have set up a structure under him that would yield a more progressive club.

    I am of the opinion that the owners will be the owners. You can’t do much to change that. There are worse owners if you look around when it comes to spending. The fact of the matter is that we’ve spent money but the guy leading the charge, Ed, is not the right guy to run things. He can do the job of a CEO just fine but need footballing people in the right roles for us to move forward.

    Ed as CEO gets mentioned way too much in the media. That’s the sign that he is calling the shots on everything without proper footballing people doing the job that needs to be done right.
  10. Jun 3, 2019
    #50

    Reddy Rederson New Member

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    Obviously it’s the owners. They are the only constant. We’re on manager number four since SAF retired, and the names have changed but the play remains quite pish. So if it’s the managers at this point, it’s the owners for appointing them. If it’s the players, it’s still on the owners because they should be moving on those that aren’t good enough. We are seven years in and nothing is really any better. So it’s the owners at this point. No matter what the problems are, it’s on the owners.
  11. Jun 3, 2019
    #51

    maximus419 New Member

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    I think its largely to do with the commercial nature of the club. As Utd are more than a football club, its a business and we are run more as a business than the football side, this is always going to get in the way of our footballing ambitions.

    Any player we sign we tend to be looking at how we market that player before we actually look at how he fits into the team and the personality. The moment they come into the club they see a platform for the club to make money from their name and also the players who come in realise this is the model and therefore the football becomes a sideshow.

    Most of them come knowing its for a short period, something to put on their instagram account to enhance their profile and to make a massive commercial killing. This creates a toxic environment as these players have massively over inflated egos, undermining the manager and coaching staff and creating a bad atmosphere. We can blame managers and owners but unfortunately the club is a victim of its former success and that model of commercialism is going to lead to our downfall. Until we are no longer worthy of the Manchester United name and commercial deals dry and up and become secondary, I just don't see a time where we go back to being top of the league or a dominant force.
  12. Jun 3, 2019
    #52

    ivaldo Mediocre Horse Whisperer, s'up wid chew?

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    The owners aren't idiots, regardless of how desperate some are to say they are. I'll say it again: they know that the clubs brand and it's profitability is tied long term with it's relative success. They want us to be Kings of Europe as much as anyone, even if their motives are different.
  13. Jun 3, 2019
    #53

    Varun Moderator Staff

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    Lack of a structure
  14. Jun 3, 2019
    #54

    LeftyBlaster Full Member

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    Yeah. I look at Liverpool and City and get really pissed off because they are being run the right way and obviously have the correct recruitment strategy to fit their vision.
  15. Jun 3, 2019
    #55

    Class of 63 Full Member

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    The biggest problem, and by quite some distance is some of our fans, and I use the term loosely. Far too many critics these days sadly.
  16. Jun 3, 2019
    #56

    purgethefallen New Member

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    Owners/Woodward for not putting in the correct structure for a football club to flourish.

    Players who don't appear to give feck.
  17. Jun 3, 2019
    #57

    Paul_Scholes18 Full Member

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    I think it is that we are overall not very proactive. There is no vision or plan from our owners or Woodward. We go for short term managers who do not really know what to do with the team. They might have some ideas, but the owners are not fully behind the managers. We got money, but are not using it well. Also we could possibly have spent even more money if we wanted too.

    The focus from the owner seem to be to earn as much money as they can with as little effort possibly. They don't care about titles as long as they are making money. Once we start to decline too much they will probably sell the club. It is a very negative form of ownership/leadership.
  18. Jun 4, 2019
    #58

    He'sRaldo New Member

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    I blame Moyes for getting rid of our backroom staff, which ensured that players stopped improving at the club, thereby heavily contributing to managers' failure and subsequently forcing the board to sack them and find alternatives, sometimes unsuitable ones.

    So the blame goes like Moyes> Coaching Staff> Players> Other Managers> Board. Special mention to the board for having no discernable plan or philosophy for the club.
  19. Jun 4, 2019
    #59

    Rifer Full Member

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    All.

    If we have to choose one..

    Biggest problems: Owners, CEO and everyone they put as heads in making all the big decisions at the top. Incompetent Owners/CEO is an ongoing problems.
    Biggest influences : Manager (which can be a huge vital key-est problem if wrong manager in wrong times).

    Let's face it, a competent manager can easily hide the incompetency of owners and players. Competent manager will do what he can and handle and fixing whatever limitations or problematic mess shit the owners/CEO throw into the club stinking it. Competent manager will also deal with the players directly, so basically they have the strongest influence to the team/squad in terms of who to play, who to drop, who to kick out until they willingly want to leave, etc and making all the key football matches and trainings decisions are all on manager's power hand. Owners/CEO likely to also interfere with the football decisions but competent manager will "fight" their interference well professionally <- that's the best way but need to be firm.

    Why I put "times" there is because manager can change their managing style overtimes depending on situations/things happening, and many managers are more specialized/useful in some situations than others eg. a manager specialized in building squad as in ruthless in tearing the squad up and build newer and fresher squad (but not so good at winning stuffs by driving your team hard to win it) is useful when you have an ageing-dying squad or a shit squad but counter productive when you already have a good talented squad at a nice range of ages. Or electing a manager specialized in managing group of talented expensive players is counter-productive to be hired when you have low budget. A manager specialized in being a sunshine positive influence as in bringing the positivity and hope back (but poor on squad building/tactical level/etc) is useful only short term when the team morale is so low likely because of prev manager's activities, so shouldn't let him stay too long cause it'll be counter-productive. Etc etc.

    So choose manager wisely depending on timings and duration of times.
    Alternative is to get an amazing long-term manager specialized in everything generally but that's unlikely to happen as in striking the jackpot like luck-based.
  20. Jun 4, 2019
    #60

    VP Full Member

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    Owners obviously but also fans for allowing the parasites to bleed our club.
  21. Jun 4, 2019
    #61

    Regulus Arcturus Black Full Member

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    This, hundreds of redcafe experts are all in here telling the World what has been done wrong and how to fix it. It’s just not that simple.
    Liverpool are in the position they are now because of Klopp, not because the club was as well run as everyone loves to make out now. We all knew Klopp was the dog’s balls but they got lucky there due to the perfect timing of his departure from Dortmund and no other top job being available.
  22. Jun 4, 2019
    #62

    SaintMuppet New Member

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    Everybody has had a hand in the current malaise, owners, managers, players, everyone.

    Over entitled and know-it-all fans cannot be excused......

    Sit back and look at this place sometimes for example. It really is sickening.

    If you are the expert we so desperately need as so many purport to be then please go to head office or the training ground or whatever and do your thing because whining in here day and night is doing nothing.
  23. Jun 4, 2019
    #63

    GazTheLegend Full Member

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    Yes
  24. Jun 4, 2019
    #64

    U99ted Full Member

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    Yes, and City are doing so well because of those that frequent BlueMoon and show up to the Etihad in their empty seat costumes.
  25. Jun 4, 2019
    #65

    noodlehair "It's like..."

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    If the players are an ongoing problem then it becomes the managers fault. If successive managers continuously can't seem to get it right then it means the problem is above them.
  26. Jun 4, 2019
    #66

    Bestietom Full Member

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    Owners and CEO just bleeding our club. No manager can work here with these lot.
  27. Jun 4, 2019
    #67

    andycolegangstainnit Full Member

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    Since Ronaldo left we've spent £826m and recouped £321m in players sales - £505m. In the ten years (four Fergy, 1 Moyes, 2 LvG, 2.5 mo) 50 players signed. Of those only the following are world class - DDG and Pogba (and even he's not fulfilled his talent). The other nearly WC were Sanchez, RvP, Lukaku (don't laugh but he's highly rated), Zlatan (over the hill), Romero and Di Maria. Shaw, Mata & Herrera decent players as well so 40 crap signings. An unbelievable bad 10 years of recruitment. In 20 years time the only player out of the 50 that is likely to be looked on as a United legend is DDG. We should have appointed a DoF 10 years ago with a couple of ex-players on a panel with the manager to approve signings.

    The mangers have made poor signings so I guess you've got to blame Woodward for allowing them to do so to answer the original question
  28. Jun 4, 2019
    #68

    flappyjay Full Member

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    Woodward is a brilliant ceo in the commercial side of things and that's where he should stay. The owners should have long implemented a football structure. In Hindsight the right opportunity was when Gill and Sir Alex left. Them two leaving at the same time was the worst thing that could have happened that summer, hiring Moyes wasn't the worst thing that happened imo. If Gills stays for that summer with the finances we had he probably gets Fabregas and Bale or an alternative if bail transfer fails. I think that summer set up everything up to this point.
  29. Jun 4, 2019
    #69

    Buster15 Full Member

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    Correct. The dysfunctional squad we have is the direct result of very poor recruitment coupled with a comprehensive lack of overall strategy.
    Put simply we are a supertanker without an engine or a rudder or a captain.
    We are going nowhere and are in danger of sinking fast.
    And. I have seen absolutely nothing since the end of the season to convince me that we actually know how to get this mess resolved. None at all.
  30. Jun 4, 2019
    #70

    simplyared Full Member

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    I believe the manager plays a massive role in the success of a football club like ours. So I'm going to put a lot of the blame on him. Looking over the years we've had two long term managers in Sir Matt and Sir Alex and under those two we hit the heights. Tommy Doc was a quality manager as well and with his expertise he rebuilt the team, we played good attacking football and most of us were happy then. All the others imo have been pretty dire. Big Ron was ok at a pinch but nothing more. What I'm saying is our owners whoever they have been have not been good in recruiting the right man for the job. We chose a top manager in Mourinho. There weren't many bigger fish than him around, but he proved a disaster for the club. I don't believe it has anything to do with money, vision for the club, comittment or whatever. So get the right man in the dressing room, on the training ground, and on the transfer market, success will come!
  31. Jun 4, 2019
    #71

    Tincanalley Turns player names into a crappy conversation

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    No he is not. This point has been well made in various posts in here. By the time the Glazers owned the club it was doomed, and the manager was irrelevant.
  32. Jun 4, 2019
    #72

    Tincanalley Turns player names into a crappy conversation

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    Bit of a rehash of other threads to be fair. Put in a vote to spice things up.
  33. Jun 4, 2019
    #73

    AllezLesDiables Full Member

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    The manager does play a big role but any manager will fail without the proper infrastructure.

    Klopp and Guardiola never wanted to come to United because there was no infrastructure. Any top manager is going to avoid United as long as there isn’t an infrastructure in place because they are doomed to failure.

    Txiti is just a big a part of Pep’s success he just doesn’t get the plaudits and the same is true with Michael Edwards and Klopp.

    The same is true of the Golden State Warriors. They have a tremendous infrastructure.

    SAF was extremely rare because he was good enough to be a manager and a DoF.
    That combination is extremely rare, but he also had lots of help as well.
  34. Jun 4, 2019
    #74

    Chairman Steve Full Member

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    Owners who are far too passive and Woodward and his marketing posse not knowing the first thing about football, other than how can we get a company on board to hawk their wares and include a random overpaid squad player in it.
  35. Jun 4, 2019
    #75

    dove Full Member

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    Everyone.

    Owners for only allowing to spend when we miss out on CL.
    Board for being clueless - picking the wrong managers, not knowing when it's time to get rid of them, completely out of control with wages and a complete lack of planning.
    Managers for being not good enough (Moyes and Ole are just not good enough while LVG and Jose are past it) and constantly sticking with these mediocre players. I don't think the club offers contract extensions without getting a yes from the manager.
    I know most people will blame players but it's not their fault they are being rewarded for mediocrity. At least half of our squad would be long gone at any other top club. We just cannot get rid of them before giving them a testimonial at least which is because of the board and the manager.
    Fans for being idiots. Putting way too much pressure on stuff like playing youth and being gullible believing every manager deserves at least 3 year to do his job.

    Combine it all and we have what we have. A complete shitshow with no light at the end of the tunnel.
  36. Jun 4, 2019
    #76

    dev1l Full Member

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    Mainly the owners. They only care about commercial side, not about winning trophies.
    Then in.order to try and keep the fans happy, they ll put all the blame on the manager and sack him every two or three years.
    Giving Solskjaer a permanent deal matched this strategy perfectly:
    -Cheap
    -Made fans happy
    -And it when fans start moaning, he ll be cheap to sack too.
    Marquee signings also aligned with this strategy - they increase sales /interest in.the club...and keep fans happy.
    Problem is that we risk not attracting marquee signings....no CL is already a problem, just to mention one
  37. Jun 4, 2019
    #77

    Jeppers7 Full Member

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    Owners and managers.

    Owners priority is top 4. It will be difficult for any club to push beyond the priorities of its owners.

    Managers. None have put a system in place since SAF that was likely to succeed.
  38. Jun 4, 2019
    #78

    Snuffkin New Member

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    Yes, Owners. Green and Gold until the club is sold. Lets force their hand. Make them sell up.
  39. Jun 4, 2019
    #79

    Noc-Z ffs

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    All connected to be honest. It can be traced back to the last seasons of Fergie. When he made his speech about the state of the squad he was leaving I thought well thats a joke!!! It was in dire need of a complete overhaul then. Which should never be the case. Should be a natural evolution.

    And Im not blaming Fergie he's a legend who worked wonders.
  40. Jun 4, 2019
    #80

    iKeano Full Member

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    Spot on, especially about moving on the dead weight. We have a squad full of 'squad players' that would struggle to make it into any other squad in the top half of the PL table.

    Liverpool win the CL on Saturday & release 2 player on Tuesday - getting business done on and off the pitch.
    Meanwhile at OT - Young, Jones, Smalling, Rojo, Darmian, Bailly, Matic, Lingard, Lukaku, Sanchez, Fred, Rashford, Martial. Would anyone genuinely lament the 'loss' of any of this lot?

    Owners care not about football, only the profits they pinch from the club via golden-boy Ed (who negotiated the purchase of the club which didn't cost the Glazers a sing penny let's not forget!).
    Board care not about football, only commercial deals.
    Manager is possibly out of his depth and will be undermined by the above.
    Players care not about the club or the fans. It looks like they don't even enjoy playing football at all. I've seen more will to win in over 40's 5-a-side.

    It's rotten from the top down and the bottom up. Dark days ahead with little to no sign of light at the end of the tunnel!